Sinlock
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US Fleet Order Update.

Tue May 08, 2007 11:41 pm

During the CLT MX Town Hall meeting hosted by Parker on 4/18, the Narrowbody/Widebody order was brought up. Here are some of the biggest parts covered. With info from other meetings also.

If things go to Plan, the choice will be announced by the end of May.

The order is for around 80 aircraft. 20-WB and around 60-NB.

The order will most likely got to only one manufacture due to package pricing. (i.e. all A or all B but no mix)

Both manufactures are being very aggressive about winning the order Parker said that when he was HP they never got this amount of attention.

Narrowbodys

The NB will replace 737 classics and the older 757s.
Both aircraft fit the job description but Doug leans toward the 321 due to commonalty and faster delivery.


Widebodys

The A340 leasing for asia is stalled as US is having trouble securing gates from PHL. (Parker did not sound pleased)


The A350 had these points mentioned some good some bad.
Airbus is upholding the 350-Mk1 price for the Mk5 aircraft.
Pilot, MX, Parts Supply commonality.
EIS is not firm.
Profromance #'s are not firm due to ongoing changes.


The 787 had these points mentioned some good some bad.
The 787 is Dougs choice.
EIS is much sooner.
787 is actually firmed up and being built.
Parker would not have the airline be single source supplied.



Near the end of the segment covering the aircraft order Parker asked the MX folks what they thought and had them do a vote by hand. He was very surprised to see nearly all the hands in the room go up in for the 787 and 737. Mostly due to them preferring Boeings MX documentation.




(Note. Information was compiled from multiple sources such as Kirby, Parker, Bular. Point being the info is not just from people who know whats going, its from the people who decide whats going to happen.)
 
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Stitch
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Tue May 08, 2007 11:45 pm

The WSJ reported they still believe US will order the A350XWB and the A320, and that article post-dates this meeting, for whatever that is worth.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Tue May 08, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting Sinlock (Thread starter):
The A350 had these points mentioned some good some bad.
Airbus is upholding the 350-Mk1 price for the Mk5 aircraft.
Pilot, MX, Parts Supply commonality.
EIS is not firm.
Profromance #'s are not firm due to ongoing changes.

If US goes Boeing it will most likely because they know when they'll get the planes and what they'll get. If they go Airbus it will probably be because of price and the preference for the A321 voiced above.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
whappeh
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 12:13 am

I'm curious about the 340 situation, since there was a thread about AC's 345s going to TAM (I think it was).
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EI321
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting Sinlock (Thread starter):
Both aircraft fit the job description but Doug leans toward the 321 due to commonalty and faster delivery.

Is this due to higher output?
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting Sinlock (Thread starter):
The 787 had these points mentioned some good some bad.
The 787 is Dougs choice.
EIS is much sooner.
787 is actually firmed up and being built.
Parker would not have the airline be single source supplied.

That to me says loud and clear that Parker never wanted the A350 to begin with. Like others have said, the only reason Airbus would win here is price and US' large fleet of A32S.
 
EI321
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 5):
That to me says loud and clear that Parker never wanted the A350 to begin with.

They why would they sign a commitment for the old A350? Are you saying they scammed airbus to get the loan?

A 789 sized aircraft for 788 money sounds good to me but timing seems to go against airbus.

[Edited 2007-05-08 17:29:59]
 
Leskova
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 2):
If they go Airbus it will probably be because of price and the preference for the A321 voiced above.

And since they already have A321s, you could also say that they'll get the plane they want from Airbus, not just from Boeing... I know that a lot of people around here are very keen on reducing Airbus to nothing but a company that can only win on pricing, but stop deluding yourself: that's not the case.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 6):
They why would they sign a commitment for the old A350? Are you saying they scammed airbus to get the loan?

Was Parker even the CEO of US Airways then? This was before the US/HP merger - and judging by the above comments ("Parker said that when he was HP they never got this amount of attention") I'd say that he had nothing to do with the loan.

Quoting Sinlock (Thread starter):
Near the end of the segment covering the aircraft order Parker asked the MX folks what they thought and had them do a vote by hand. He was very surprised to see nearly all the hands in the room go up in for the 787 and 737. Mostly due to them preferring Boeings MX documentation.

Fortunately, mx documentation is not the only criterium when ordering planes...  Wink
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Flighty
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 1:21 am

Once again Doug impresses. It is cool he asked the MX staff which plane they would rather have. He's not just BSing, he probably thinks the MX people know the planes (both 737, 767, A320 and A330) more intimately than he ever will.

PHL is short of international gates which is actually a huge problem. Too bad to hear about that.

If Boeing's 787 price is good, why not just buy that. I can't think of a single reason.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
If Boeing's 787 price is good, why not just buy that. I can't think of a single reason.

From the sound of it Airbus is offering an even better price on the A350; the question is whether US can afford to wait for it.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 1:32 am

I'm eagerly watching this situation  Smile

I don't mind what way US eventually goes, as both manufacturers offer good products.

As for the gates at PHL (for asia flights), are there really not that many available gates in the Int'l terminal??



Lee
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PHLapproach
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 10):
are there really not that many available gates in the Int'l terminal??

Only 13 at A-West and three are used for DLH, BAW, and AFR. For the past three days we have been using almost everything on the hammerhead like 12, 13, 10 and 8. So now who ever is working those gates has to take all the equipment over there and back.
 
flyorski
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 2:19 am

It will be VERY interesting to see what they decide to order.

Quoting Sinlock (Thread starter):
The A340 leasing for asia is stalled as US is having trouble securing gates from PHL. (Parker did not sound pleased)

Does this mean they will not be flying to China?
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
airfrnt
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 3:35 am

I still maintain there is absolutely no chance that US goes 787, but it's a real sign of the 787's strength that US still looks like they are considering it. However, with US already in the 320 camp (how many 737's do they have right now?), Airbus forgiving 20 million dollars of debt (which they appear already to have done -- indicating that this may all be a show for investors benefit), and the little nugget below:

Quoting Sinlock (Thread starter):
Airbus is upholding the 350-Mk1 price for the Mk5 aircraft.

Boeing would be insane to compete here. Airbus has to keep this customer, as it's the only customer they have on US soil for the 350 right now. Boeing has their entire production line sold out past the A350's introduction. They don't need this order.
 
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Stitch
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):
Boeing would be insane to compete here...They don't need this order.

It was that kind of thinking that helped allow Airbus to capture 50%+ of the market...

It goes beyond just the 787. There is also the narrowbody expansion and narrowbody replacement orders. And if US grows, they will need planes with greater then 300-seats, which could land them 777 and Y3 orders.
 
brilondon
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):
Boeing has their entire production line sold out past the A350's introduction. They don't need this order.

What a weird thing to say that a company should not compete simply because it " doesn't need the order". I don't think that Boeing would turn away an order for its product at any time.  scratchchin 
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columba
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 4:48 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 9):
From the sound of it Airbus is offering an even better price on the A350; the question is whether US can afford to wait for it.

They have A332 on order and Airbus could offer them some more interim A330s until the A350 is ready.
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Lumberton
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 4:53 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):
Airbus has to keep this customer, as it's the only customer they have on US soil for the 350 right now.

They sold two A350XWB's to Pegasus Aviation.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 4:54 am

After today's publishings of DOT's statistics, US focus should be getting the current aircraft they have now in the air and making the pax a little happier than they have been. Othwerwise, they may not need to order anything new. At their current rate of self destruction, they seem a likely candidate for revisiting BK. 56% on time rate isn't going to cut it, no matter how you assign the blame.
 
walter747
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting Whappeh (Reply 3):
I'm curious about the 340 situation, since there was a thread about AC's 345s going to TAM

Me also. I thought they were getting them.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):

PHL is short of international gates which is actually a huge problem. Too bad to hear about that.

Yes  Sad

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):
Boeing has their entire production line sold out past the A350's introduction. They don't need this order.

US already bought the "spots". So if they did choose the 787 they would get them in 2009.
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usairways85
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 6:05 am

Don't the A320's and A321's have some range issues when it comes to operating trans con flts?

Also i find it hard to believe that not having enough gates at PHL is the reason why the A340 deal has stalled. I mean they already agreed to keep DL out of A for the time being so that gives US the most amount of international gates at PHL.

Where does US want LH, BA, and AF to go...park on the runway???

There are some remote parking stands in PHL why can't US use them if need be. In Europe paxs are bused from their aicraft to the terminal all the time. I just did it in LHR and FCO.
 
vega
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 6:22 am

IMO, one of the major drawbacks with the 350XWB is that general size, shape and weight specs will not be firmed until October 2008 - that's more than a year from now and.detailed performance specs won't obviously be available until sometime after that. Signing a contract now, even with delay/performance penalties, would be tantamount to buying "something" in an unopened box. Probably not a wise corporate level decision. On the other hand, if the price discount is significant enough and it applies to both the A350 and A321 Orders, it may be worth the risk - IF Airbus can provide US with interim long-haul aircraft (A332s and A340s). Currently, 10 332s are scheduled to start delivery to US sometime late next year through 2009 - these could possibly be accelerated (as part of a 350 deal), since Airbus is planning to ramp up 332 production. Obviously Asia from the U.S. East Coast will require A340s or 777-200ERs. As far as earlier delivery of the 787 as a key factor in selecting it over the A350XWB, 787s ordered today (because of backlog) would likely not be delivered until at least 2012-2013 - about the same time as the expected 2013 delivery of the first 350s. However, US could possibly work a deal with Boeing for a few earlier deliveries. I would bet the deal between Parker and PHL airport regarding the A340 and Gates is the same as has been for the past year. Parker wants all of A-East as a dedicated International Terminal and PHL is moving in the opposite direction - primarily because of WN's expansion plans. BA was the last holdout in A-East and has now moved to new facilities in A-West, leaving the only international flying (Caribbean only) by AA and several US Trans-Atlantic 757s and caribbean straglers. The plan is for DL to move into 4 gates in A-East in late Fall with their Crown Room. This probably even makes Parker more furious. Personally, I side with Parker on this and feel A-East should retain it's intended purpose - ALL International, but I also understand the relationship established between WN and PHL when US was facing liquidation. I believe (IMO) that US is already looking at 767-300s as an interim international solution instead of the 332s (Europe), in the event the 787 is selected. The 767-300 could use A-East gates. A340-500s would likely require A-West.
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AVinutso
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 6:25 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
It was that kind of thinking that helped allow Airbus to capture 50%+ of the market...

My thoughts exactly. Being aggressive for the US order is exactly what B needs to do. Whether they win the order or not, it will send a message that Boeing is not becoming complacent as happened in the '90's and is out there hustling orders. Airbus is not dead and if Boeing does not fight for major orders, Boeing will skid again. Who knows, they may win it.

J
Maybe we shoulda thought of that FIRST
 
blsbls99
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 21):
As far as earlier delivery of the 787 as a key factor in selecting it over the A350XWB, 787s ordered today (because of backlog) would likely not be delivered until at least 2012-2013 - about the same time as the expected 2013 delivery of the first 350s.

US Airways has stated previously that they do have slots reserved with Boeing for 787s. I don't believe that they are as late as 2012-2013, but earlier (from what I remember reading).
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Leskova
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 21):
IMO, one of the major drawbacks with the 350XWB is that general size, shape and weight specs will not be firmed until October 2008 - that's more than a year from now and.detailed performance specs won't obviously be available until sometime after that.

You might want to read Astuteman's post #4 on this other thread here... Airbus Meets Pressure To Deliver On A350 (by BoomBoom May 8 2007 in Civil Aviation)

... and you'll probably realize that you're wrong...  Wink
Smile - it confuses people!
 
vega
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 24):

You might want to read Astuteman's post #4 on this other thread here...
Airbus Meets Pressure To Deliver On A350 (by BoomBoom May 8 2007 in Civil Aviation)

... and you'll probably realize that you're wrong...



Quoting Leskova (Reply 24):
Quoting Vega (Reply 21):
IMO, one of the major drawbacks with the 350XWB is that general size, shape and weight specs will not be firmed until October 2008 - that's more than a year from now and.detailed performance specs won't obviously be available until sometime after that.

You might want to read Astuteman's post #4 on this other thread here...
Airbus Meets Pressure To Deliver On A350 (by BoomBoom May 8 2007 in Civil Aviation)

... and you'll probably realize that you're wrong...

NO, what I reaized is that I was RIGHT!

http://www.euro2day.gr/articlesfna/34287280/
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
Leskova
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 6:56 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 25):
NO, what I reaized is that I was RIGHT!

Then you're obviously missing the relevant part...  Yeah sure ... the freeze expected for October next year is not the one that produces the data relevant for airlines - it's the several freezes happening between now and then that are relevant.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
LGA777
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 21):
The 767-300 could use A-East gates. A340-500s would likely require A-West.

There are gates on A-Eaat that have been used by BA (744, 777) and LH (744,346) so if needed the A345 should fit on A-East as well. Also most flights from the East Coast and Central US to Asia tend to depart around late morming to early afternoon which would allow a possible US flight to China to be off an existing gate before the US European arrivals start arriving.

Regards

LGA777
 
vega
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting Blsbls99 (Reply 23):
US Airways has stated previously that they do have slots reserved with Boeing for 787s. I don't believe that they are as late as 2012-2013, but earlier (from what I remember reading).

What?? Please provide a reference.

Quoting LGA777 (Reply 27):
There are gates on A-Eaat that have been used by BA (744, 777) and LH (744,346) so if needed the A345 should fit on A-East as well. Also most flights from the East Coast and Central US to Asia tend to depart around late morming to early afternoon which would allow a possible US flight to China to be off an existing gate before the US European arrivals start arriving.

I'm aware of that and have mentioned it several times in other Threads regarding the 340 fit at PHL.. My statement was intended to relate that US would more than likely use A-West for the premium Asia flights because of it's better esthetics and physical size.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 26):
Then you're obviously missing the relevant part... ... the freeze expected for October next year is not the one that produces the data relevant for airlines - it's the several freezes happening between now and then that are relevant.

I do not agree. That is your personal assertion, not the publshed Article content.
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walter747
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting LGA777 (Reply 27):
late morming to early afternoon which would allow a possible US flight to China to be off an existing gate before the US European arrivals start arriving.

Most European flights leave at night and arrive back in late afternoon. So A-east would have all morning and early afternoon empty.
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2wingtips
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting Sinlock (Thread starter):
Near the end of the segment covering the aircraft order Parker asked the MX folks what they thought and had them do a vote by hand. He was very surprised to see nearly all the hands in the room go up in for the 787 and 737. Mostly due to them preferring Boeings MX documentation.

Thanks for the update. Your information would clearly indicate a preference for the 787 by Parker. Do you have any information on NB preference, specifically, A321 v 739ER and which type would be preferable for US trans-continental services?
Obviously, Parker is not the Board, but his endorsement of the 787 would seem quite clear.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
The WSJ reported they still believe US will order the A350XWB and the A320, and that article post-dates this meeting, for whatever that is worth.

True, but they weren't that definitive. This one is obviously still very tight.
 
blsbls99
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 28):
Quoting Blsbls99 (Reply 23):
US Airways has stated previously that they do have slots reserved with Boeing for 787s. I don't believe that they are as late as 2012-2013, but earlier (from what I remember reading).

What?? Please provide a reference.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...conews&tkr=LCC:US&sid=aa5566UDGUfA

This states that they have delivery slots at Boeing for the 787, and that they need to move on them soon or lose them. It did not mention for when, so either I read that somewhere else or just imagined it.
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vega
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 7:56 am

Quoting Blsbls99 (Reply 31):
Quoting Vega (Reply 28):
Quoting Blsbls99 (Reply 23):
US Airways has stated previously that they do have slots reserved with Boeing for 787s. I don't believe that they are as late as 2012-2013, but earlier (from what I remember reading).

What?? Please provide a reference.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...conews&tkr=LCC:US&sid=aa5566UDGUfA

This states that they have delivery slots at Boeing for the 787, and that they need to move on them soon or lose them. It did not mention for when, so either I read that somewhere else or just imagined it.

I know US has reserved slots. My point is that unless US is one of the UFOs (unlikely), I'd be shocked to see how they could get delivery before 2012 with 119 firm orders and many slot reservations already ahead of them - unless of course they take over NW.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
panam330
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 7:58 am

I would like to see US go Boeing on this one, mostly because their A32S aircraft are not going to handle transcon flights very well after the recent reconfiguration (read: addition) of seats. That, and the 787 EIS is earlier, and (provided they can get them fast enough) US could get ahold of some Asian traffic, as well as Europe from PHX.
 
dank
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 8:01 am

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 33):
I would like to see US go Boeing on this one, mostly because their A32S aircraft are not going to handle transcon flights very well after the recent reconfiguration

It's not as if the comprable 737s could do substantially better with the same configurations.

cheers.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 8:12 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 32):
I know US has reserved slots. My point is that unless US is one of the UFOs (unlikely), I'd be shocked to see how they could get delivery before 2012 with 119 firm orders and many slot reservations already ahead of them - unless of course they take over NW.

Unless I'm mistaken, US got the slots that EK or SQ (or somebody who decided to go A350) gave up.. and I do believe also they are 2009 slots.. probably VERY valuable slots right now... and I think they are for 30(+) that was given up..
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jfk777
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 8:19 am

USAIRways's fleet replacement program is like one of those Spanish telenovelas, more twists and turns then JR ewing on Dallas. Buy something new, please.
 
whappeh
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 8:42 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 36):
. Buy something new, please.

You're talking as if they're buying Snickers Candy Bars. These aircraft orders are going to be for more money then you, me and everyone else that has posted on this thread will see in our entire lives combined.
-Travel now, journey infinitely.
 
ScottB
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 8:51 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 21):
Personally, I side with Parker on this and feel A-East should retain it's intended purpose - ALL International, but I also understand the relationship established between WN and PHL when US was facing liquidation.

I think the City of Philadelphia would probably be a bit more receptive to US Airways in this area if (1) the additional international flying from PHL were less seasonal and (2) US Airways were using their mainline gates for more than 4 or 5 daily turns. It comes down to a choice of reserving gates for US Airways which are needed once a day for four to six months of the year, or freeing up gates for Southwest who would probably use them for eight to ten daily turns. International flying is good for Philadelphia, but seasonal international service isn't so attractive to business travelers; they don't stop flying to Europe just because summer is over.
 
panam330
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 9:01 am

Quoting Dank (Reply 34):
It's not as if the comprable 737s could do substantially better with the same configurations.

Actually, they can. According to Airbus, with 150 pax, the A320 has a 3000nm range, and the A321 carries 185 pax just as far. The Boeing 737-900ER can carry 180 pax 3200nm. That extra range makes a substantial difference when you advertise PHL-SFO as non-stop and your overloaded A320s can't make it.
 
Sinlock
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 30):
Do you have any information on NB preference, specifically, A321 v 739ER and which type would be preferable for US trans-continental services?
Obviously, Parker is not the Board, but his endorsement of the 787 would seem quite clear.

Parker stated that if it were up to him the order would A321s and 787's but that isn't going to happen because the A and B are pitching the NB and WB's as a combo. So it's kind of all or nothing.

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 12):
Does this mean they will not be flying to China?

Kirby has said that US will launch other service to asia if the China routes are not aquired. (Both Kirby and Parker have said their not holding their breath on the china routes, they expect DL to win.)
 
PHLapproach
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 2:48 pm

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 39):
That extra range makes a substantial difference when you advertise PHL-SFO as non-stop and your overloaded A320s can't make it.

They are not overloading it one bit. This flight is severely weight restricted. I worked it maybe two weeks ago. Cargo/Baggage was restricted to 4800. 7 people who volunteered were pulled. We were ready to pull mail out.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2002
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 2:50 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):

It was that kind of thinking that helped allow Airbus to capture 50%+ of the market...

No, it was not competing on marginal deals. This deal won't be marginal, it will be a loss leader all around.

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 15):

What a weird thing to say that a company should not compete simply because it " doesn't need the order". I don't think that Boeing would turn away an order for its product at any time.

Sure they will, if they end up basically paying US to provide aircraft that other carriers would buy for them, Boeing would turn away that order.
 
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scbriml
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 3:49 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 42):
This deal won't be marginal, it will be a loss leader all around.

Aside from Airbus admitting that the first few A380s will actually make a loss because of the wiring rework, do you have any evidence of either Airbus or Boeing selling any planes at a loss?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
Flighty
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 9:03 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 43):
Airbus or Boeing selling any planes at a loss?

Airbus does not sell A350s for the US Airways A350 price anymore, so that is one piece of evidence.
 
birdbrainz
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):
Boeing would be insane to compete here.

Actually, Boeing would be insane NOT to compete here. If nothing else, they can force Airbus to offer an even sweeter deal. Even if they don't win the order, they could make Airbus wish they hadn't.

All that said, I still think this one is Airbus' order to lose.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
Corsair1107
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 10:13 pm

I just don't see this going Boeings way, Parker wants A32X's and I'm sure Airbus will be more than willing to set up some kind of interim help in the form of cheaply leased A330's/A340's from various sources. This will let US get it's Asia services in gear on the cheap while they wait on their A350's. Boeing is very smart to compete here though, they can force Airbus to commit interim lift resources they might have used elsewhere.
Flown on: DHC-6/8, F100, B1900C, 717, 727, 737, 757, 767, 777, 319, 320, C152/172, E135/145, DC-9, MD-83/88 CL600
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 10:35 pm

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 45):
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):
Boeing would be insane to compete here.

Actually, Boeing would be insane NOT to compete here. If nothing else, they can force Airbus to offer an even sweeter deal. Even if they don't win the order, they could make Airbus wish they hadn't.

All that said, I still think this one is Airbus' order to lose.

 checkmark   checkmark 

Absolutely on the money. And may I remind those who completely discount a Boeing order, many of the same arguments were made before AC (787, 777), LH (747-8i), TAM (777), and a few others ordered Boeing products.
Fleet commonality notwithstanding, there are other cost considerations, airlines are dealing with, that are equally compelling.

This one is going down to the wire, IMHO.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
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scbriml
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Wed May 09, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 44):
Airbus does not sell A350s for the US Airways A350 price anymore, so that is one piece of evidence.

Sorry, but that doesn't show anything in respect of selling planes at a loss.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
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Stitch
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RE: US Fleet Order Update.

Thu May 10, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 42):
This deal won't be marginal (for Airbus or Boeing), it will be a loss leader all around.

I disagree. Even with Airbus offering US the original price, there are still ancillaries. US is going to need training for their pilots and mechanics. They're going to need spares. They're going to need a whole lot of things which are sold at very fat profit margins. Airbus can cut the up-front capital costs to US and then make it up on the back-end.

And then there are the profits from the pre-existing A330 and A320 deals, plus any new A320 buys. And if the A320E program is launched, Airbus can make money there as US either converts unfulfilled orders over or places new orders for expansion/replacement.

And Boeing can do the same. And if anything, ancillaries help Boeing even more since US would need to get then for both the 787 and the 737RS if Boeing can successfully link a 737RS order with the 787 one...