HB-IWC
Topic Author
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 1:55 pm

KLM is taking delivery of its first B773ER aircraft at the end of February next year, and the first flights with the new aircraft have recently been loaded in the reservation systems. These are the details:

First flight:

KL791 AMS GRU on Sunday, March 02, 2008

Schedule for the first aircraft:

KL791/792 AMS GRU AMS on Tue, Thu, Sun
KL427/428 AMS DXB AMS on Mon, Wed, Fri, Sat

KLM's B77Ws, two of which will join the fleet early 2008, will be configured in a 35C/393Y configuration, with the WBC section identical to that of the B772ER. The economy cabin is supposed to feature the much dreaded 10-abreast configuration. The first two aircraft will be registered PH-BVA/B. Two more aircraft are set to join the fleet in 2009, while KLM is expected to make a follow up order for the B77W.
 
LurveBus
Posts: 218
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:21 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 2:40 pm

10-abreast? Ouch. Well, if they have the same pitch as Emirates, they shouldn't have much complaints.

What I don't understand, though, is that there should be enough space between doors 1 and 2 to accomodate 42 WBC seats. Likewise, on the 747s, there's enough space upstairs to squeeze in 2 extra WBC seats. Is it KL's policy to have a limited C cabin to control the yields or something?
 
KLM685
Posts: 1506
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 12:41 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 2:55 pm

Wow thanks for the info! Is there any special reason as to why GRU is their first destination with the 77W?

Let's see how the 10 abreast works out for KLM.

Quoting LurveBus (Reply 1):
Ouch. Well, if they have the same pitch as Emirates, they shouldn't have much complaints.

 checkmark 
KLM- The Best Airline in the World!
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting LurveBus (Reply 1):
10-abreast? Ouch. Well, if they have the same pitch as Emirates, they shouldn't have much complaints.

 checkmark ...I prefer EK's 10-across with 34' pitch over 9-across with 32' pitch....that's just the pits.... yuck ...

Now...I now KL won't be bringing the B773ER's to SFO for now, but hopefully they might do a "fleet substitution"..now that would be nice.. biggrin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 4:22 pm

Quoting LurveBus (Reply 1):
10-abreast? Ouch. Well, if they have the same pitch as Emirates, they shouldn't have much complaints.

As I understand it they won't. It will have the standard 31" pitch.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13091
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 4:37 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
KLM's B77Ws, two of which will join the fleet early 2008, will be configured in a 35C/393Y configuration, with the WBC section identical to that of the B772ER.

I would have thought that KL would make their 77Ws one of their most premium configured aircraft, but at 428 PAX and ten-abreast in Economy with just 31" of seat pitch, that sounds like a sardine can configuration more suitable for lower yielding destinations in the Carribean.
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 4:43 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 4):
As I understand it they won't. It will have the standard 31" pitch.

Ridiculous  thumbsdown 
The KL product is definately detoriating, especially compared to AF. It's like deploying the 77W with COI seating on high-yielding routes. I hope KLM learns from this greedy mistake, as there is no way I am going to sit in a 10-abreast 777 with 31" (or 32") pitch - and I'm sure many people with me.
When making a quick calculation here and there I reckon the pitch will be slightly increased, unless they put a lot of dead space in the cabin.
Maybe KLM has observed that the new demographic trend is that people are getting thinner and smaller, but in fact I think they just want to copy the downsides of the EK product. This won't work.

IMHO this is a wrong decision, like keeping the M11 and not fitting the 747's with PTV. It's all penny-pinching to the max with no regard whatsoever to the customer. This strategy is only based on the weakness of others (a dreadful LHR, (at the time) lack of PTV at LH, fare-cutting and the loyalty of the Dutch customers). I hope that KLM realizes it's mistake when LH is finally able to boost it's long-haul fleet and ad some capable planes that actually can get somewhere with a decent load and PTV's in the back. A good example between proper- and mismanagement between AF on the one hand (777) and LH on the other hand (346). Now don't give me this stuff about the 346 once being a good plane, LH is still ordering them while the performance is proved to be inferior, so I don't buy that argument.
If LH fixes this, there are many people in the Netherlands that can use DUS as a starting point for their trip, and with current developments AMS is loosing it's top 5 position as European Mainport anyway, especially when you look at what KLM offers at the moment: near LCC-service levels on European routes with a laughable Europe-Select product, and an only average long-haul product with old M11's, 747's and next year the 77W with 10-abreast. Only the 332 stands out, as it is configured identical to AF, but the 77W's will be like the AF COI config if this all proves true; incredible.
The only hope I have is that KLM realizes this in time and decides to go ahead with 9-abreast with 32" inch, which is bad enough on itself but would already be an improvement over the current product, which is -let's face it, pretty cramped for a legacy carrier with the "status" like KLM.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1209
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 4:46 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 4):
As I understand it they won't. It will have the standard 31" pitch.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 5):
I would have thought that KL would make their 77Ws one of their most premium configured aircraft, but at 428 PAX and ten-abreast in Economy with just 31" of seat pitch, that sounds like a sardine can configuration more suitable for lower yielding destinations in the Carribean.

Not that it is a valid comparison, buy EK runs 49C/385Y on their two-class 77W with the 34" pitch in Y. KLM's sounds somewhat similar, but galley and lav configurations could alter a little. But it tells me that it should be considerably more than 31"...
 
HB-IWC
Topic Author
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 5:05 pm

In regard to the exact cabin layout, a couple of issues are currently still under investigation, so the 35C/393Y (which would incidentally lead to exactly the same number of passengers for the B77Ws as for the 5 B744s in the fleet) although very likely, is not yet set in stone. From what I know, KLM is currently looking into the following issues:

* increasing the number of WBC seats from 35 to 42, although this would likely lead to the undesirable introduction of a second WBC cabin;
* setting up an economy class cabin with different seats pitches, which would feature 34" in the front cabin and 31-32" in the rear cabin, so as to accommodate elite frequent flyers and higher yielding economy fares in that front cabin;
* introduction of a pod-like seat in WBC, replacing the current lie flat seat, which has come in for a lot of criticism;

As far as the 10-abreast configuration goes, this looks to be a virtual certainty, although there are still some issues about what to do with the very rear of the aircraft. EK features a 2-4-2 configuration for the last couple of rows, but it looks as if KLM is looking to anyway squeeze one more seat (3-3-3 configuration) in those back rows.

It also seems that, in any case, the WBC cabin will continue to feature the abysmal middle seat in the 2-3-2 configuration, as, for reasons that are absolutely beyond me, this middle seat concept seems to be uncontested within the airline.

As for the introduction of the B77W on the AMS GRU route, this is one of KLM's better performing longhaul routes, for sure during the busy winter season. The deployment of the B744 has often been considered for AMS GRU, but the scheduling never really seemed to work out. I would not expect the B77W to stay on the AMS GRU route during summer 2008, when it is more likely that the two available B77W will be deployed to a combination of one longer and one shorter transatlantic route, such as SFO/YYZ.
 
KL577
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:21 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 5:31 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 6):
Only the 332 stands out,

I thought the 772 is identically configured to the 332?

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 6):
and an only average long-haul product with old M11's, 747's and next year the 77W with 10-abreast.

I flew AMS-SIN last month with KLM on a 772 and returned KUL-AMS on MH with a 744. To be fair, I found the leg on KLM better then MH (which is supposed to have one of the best economy classes in the world). Food and drink service on KL was better, and especially drinks came more frequent, quality of AVOD is similar, while MH's plane was dirty and looking worn out. But then again I fly out of Nigeria on KLM every 2/3 months, and the food on Nigeria-outbound flights is abysmal. And indeed 10-abreast doesn't sound comfortable.

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
KLM is taking delivery of its first B773ER aircraft at the end of February next year, and the first flights with the new aircraft have recently been loaded in the reservation systems. These are the details:

So this effectively frees up a 772? Any rumours on new destinations, or will it be used for capacity increases?
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 6:19 pm

Quoting KL577 (Reply 9):
I thought the 772 is identically configured to the 332?

No, the 332 has one more inch of pitch than the 772 (32 vs 31 inch). Besides that, the 2-4-2 config of the 332 is easily given the pax a more roomier look&feel than the 3-3-3 in the 772.
My claim is not that the KL product is bad, but it is just very average and I'd easily opt for connecting somewhere and not flying KL, when it means sitting in a 3-4-3 config on a 77W.
The plan of putting 3-3-3 seats in the rear of the 77W sounds very strange to me, because they already save room with one WBC cabin as compared to EK's cabin-layout. So they should easily fit all those seats in with a generous pitch of 34" in all rows.
A premium cabin is not a bad idea on itself; Finnair applies the same practise to it's M11; so you would buy a Take-Off fare and end up in the rear. Fair enough, but doesn't this involve a lot less flexibility when substitutions will have to be made? I mean, a 4 fleet "strong" 77W fleet, and seen the regular replacements of equipment at KL, isn't that asking for problems?
 
FlyEmirates
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:48 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 6:23 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 5):
thought that KL would make their 77Ws one of their most premium configured aircraft, but at 428 PAX and ten-abreast in Economy with just 31" of seat pitch, that sounds like a sardine can configuration more suitable for lower yielding destinations in the Carribean.

Emirates on some aircraft such as A6-EBX have a total of 442 400Y/42J if thats not the ultimate sardine can then please tell me what is!

Dissapointed that KLM is going for 10 abreast, with a 31' inch pitch there must be quite a bit of room for disabled toilets,nice size galley at R4/L4 etc.

Having worked EK DXB-BKK-HKG recently with 400 onboard in Y class I have to say it is a nightmare..like a zoo onboard, especially as EK put minimum crew on 2 class 77W (2 down from 3 class). 3 galley operators-including supervisor (also have to go into cabin) and 5 crew to hand out 2 choices of hot meal and drinks to 400 pax in 133 mins on BKK-HKG.

Etihad I believe have 28J/350Y on 77W, now that is the ideal configuration, subsequently I travel with them as a preference over my employer.
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 6:37 pm

Quoting FlyEmirates (Reply 11):
5 crew to hand out 2 choices of hot meal and drinks to 400 pax in 133 mins on BKK-HKG

Not to bash Emirates crew, but the airline really needs to figure out how to streamline your service better. Its almost amusing watching the inefficiencies on EK and QR especially as the crew struggle to get meal services done on relatively shorter legs. BA can hit hot breakfasts to a full flight on a 20 minute cruise time MAN-LGW run and I've seen other operators like AI manage to do full meals to 400+ on 90 minute sectors. 133 minutes is plenty of time to run a full service provided it is streamlined and planned better. Alas, both EK and QR are too proud to hire a consultant who can suggest where efficiencies can be found to make life not only easier for the crew - but to also give passengers an experience they will undoubtedly prefer to the current half-assed rush job.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 6:42 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
so the 35C/393Y (which would incidentally lead to exactly the same number of passengers for the B77Ws as for the 5 B744s in the fleet)

We all know the 77W will be the 744 replacement, so this must be the reason why KL is squeezing so many pax in the 77W. I don't see why AF isn't intervening in this practice and insisting adopting the AF cabin-layout minus the F cabin; if only for commonality purposes. It seems KL is making a number of quite irrational choices at the moment; I'm really puzzled about the current strategy, as it lacks consistency. One day flying on a 332 with 32" pitch in 2-4-2 and the next day being squeezed into the back of a 77W with 31" in 3-4-3 while paying the same fare; that is just asking for a lot of negative customer experiences and not being able to live up to expectations.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1209
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 7:09 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 10):
A premium cabin is not a bad idea on itself

Agreed, ala NW with the forward Y cabin of the A333, which has 2 more inches of pitch and power ports which the rear economy cabin does not have. The forward cabin is only bookable by elites until the day of departure, then first come, first served..

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 10):
I mean, a 4 fleet "strong" 77W fleet, and seen the regular replacements of equipment at KL, isn't that asking for problems?

Not to mention the frequent cancellations and overbooking KLM is notorious for....

Sorry this was not intended as a KLM bashing thread, but as someone earlier mentioned, the needs of the customer seem to be taking a back seat to profits...
 
kaitak
Posts: 9035
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 7:44 pm

Presumably, they intend to do the same with the 772s then, which are currently nine abreast in Y class? That will mean that the A332s (and 747s) are considerably more comfortable.

A lot of pressure can be put on airlines in this way, with routes operated by the new types being highlighted, e.g. "avoid flying to Brazil with KLM, as you'll end up with a 10 abreast 777-300; better to fly with TAM/AF via CDG or Lufty via FRA", or alternatively, where they have two different types operating, e.g. JFK, "choose the A330 flight over the 77W". If this is sustained, it can help to "embarrass" an airline into changing its mind on configuration, particularly if it's pointed out that the other 2 (or 3, if you include AZ) major 777 operators in Europe operate 777s in nine abreast layout.
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 7:58 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 15):
If this is sustained, it can help to "embarrass" an airline into changing its mind on configuration, particularly if it's pointed out that the other 2 (or 3, if you include AZ) major 777 operators in Europe operate 777s in nine abreast layout.

This is partly what I mean with offering a consistent service level.
The current product is already sub-standard, seat-wise, there are indeed 3 or 4 main 777 operators in Europe:
Y:
BA: 31" pitch in 3-3-3
KL: 31" pitch in 3-3-3
AZ: 32" pitch in 3-3-3
AF: 32" pitch in 3-3-3
J:
KL: lie-flat in 2-3-2
AF: lie-flat in 2-3-2
BA: flat-bed in 2-4-2
AZ: recliners in 2-2-2

KLM's long haul fleet will be composed of:

M11 in 3-3-3 no PTV 31"pitch
74M / 744 in 3-4-3 no PTV 31" pitch
77W in 3-4-3 with PTV 3?" pitch
772 in 3-3-3 with PTV 31" pitch
332 in 2-4-2 with PTV 32" pitch

Now it is not a problem on itself to use different equipment and config for different missions, but the problem lies in the inconsistency that is being offered when the 744, 772 and 77W will be rotated on the same destination.
For JFK you can reasonably expect a mix between 332, 74W, 772 and 77W; a total lack of consistency, easily disappointing the customer.

[Edited 2007-05-09 13:10:30]
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2263
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 8:01 pm

Quoting KL577 (Reply 9):
744. To be fair, I found the leg on KLM better then MH (which is supposed to have one of the best economy classes in the world).

Wow! Then you must've been on a very, VERY rare MH flight! My longhaul experience on KLM was the absolute worst on any airline I have ever been on. Seat-pitch, IFE, onboard "service", actual seating, boarding procedure - all absolutely abysmal. I will never fly them again. 10 abreast on the 777 doesn't bother me, provided that it has improved legroom, as others have mentioned.

MH's economy is a superb product and I am grateful for any airline that provides 34" pitch - so much so that I now actively seek them out. News of the KLM 77W config doesn't surprise me, to be honest, but does revalidate my vow to absolutely avoid KLM always.
 
HB-IWC
Topic Author
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 8:15 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 16):
Now it is not a problem on itself to use different equipment and config for different missions, but the problem lies in the inconsistency that is being offered when the 744, 772 and 77W will be rotated on the same destination.
For JFK you can reasonably expect a mix between 332, 74W, 772 and 77W; a total lack of consistency, easily disappointing the customer.

But hasn't this always been the case with KLM? And with many other airlines as well, for that matter? The introduction of the B77W, which will not be replacing any other aircraft type, will only be extending a situation that has been going on for a long time. As it goes, the problem of product inconsistency has been somewhat mitigated with the retirement of the B767 and its vastly inferior cabins two months ago.

As much as I agree with you about the product inconsistency, this is hardly new. Currently, well before the introduction of the B77Ws, destinations like JFK (soon A332, B772, B74E, B744), YVR (A332 last winter, now MD11), YYZ (B744, B772), LAX (B74E, B772), SFO (MD11 last winter, now B744, next winter B772 and MD11), CAI (B74E, B772), DEL (MD11, B772, next winter B744) and NRT (B772, B74E, B744) are suffering from these large service gaps, not to talk about the ongoing B747 cabin retrofits, during which it is one's best guess whether a retrofitted or non-retrofitted aircraft will be deployed.

Sure enough, this situation has the potential of easily disappointing the customer, yet, looking at KLM's strategic moves over the past couple of years, I have long since accepted that customer satisfaction is taking a back seat to other considerations at KLM. The introduction of the B77W and its 'enhanced' - I'm pretty sure that's what the press release will state - configuration is only contributing to this overall atmosphere.
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 8:51 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 18):
But hasn't this always been the case with KLM? And with many other airlines as well, for that matter? The introduction of the B77W, which will not be replacing any other aircraft type, will only be extending a situation that has been going on for a long time. As it goes, the problem of product inconsistency has been somewhat mitigated with the retirement of the B767 and its vastly inferior cabins two months ago.

Yes, you are right HB-IWC. Of course every airline has large discrepancies in it's fleet. Alitalia and its 763 and 772 product, that are light years apart in terms of cabin comfort for example.
But the point is, with a parent company in Paris, it would make sense to standardize products in the future. A vision for the group as a whole. You might say that AF will be the premium brand and KL just an average carrier. Well, that's fine.

But then they upgrade the 332 to AF standards. OK, no big deal, as it's an improvement for the customer. But this is the first diversion from that strategy.

With the 772 they go back to industry averages; fine, sounds like a plan. It fits in the KL strategy and no wonder they are happy with this bird in the fleet.

The 744 was going to be fitted like the 772, but proved"impossible" at least unfeasible. This can happen of course, but why not replace it with 77W's that are on par in terms of cabin comfort? That would make sense in the corporate strategy.

Now, the M11 is kept until 2015, at least that's the plan, refitted cabins with 3-3-3 seating and PTV later on during the year, being deployed on COI-routes so to speak. Doesn't make sense, does it? The M11 cabin will be superior to the 744 and even 77W if your horror scenario proves true. The M11 on the COI routes is fine, but now there are talks of an early phase-out. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the M11 doesn't get PTV's at all. It's just to show it's not vision driven, but mere contingency management.

You say the 767 is gone because of inconsistency. Well; why phase-out 10 year old planes while sub-standard M11/744's aren't a problem. There is something seriously wrong with KL management; either you go for full service and get your product consistent along the entire fleet; of which improved WBC and 3-3-3 on the 77W would be a first step.
Or you decide to get sub-standard ala Iberia with no frills on European routes, and no frills on long haul. But then why replace the 767, add more 332's in AF config and refit the M11 with PTV? See my point?
 
KL577
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:21 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 17):
Wow! Then you must've been on a very, VERY rare MH flight! My longhaul experience on KLM was the absolute worst on any airline I have ever been on. Seat-pitch, IFE, onboard "service", actual seating, boarding procedure - all absolutely abysmal. I will never fly them again. 10 abreast on the 777 doesn't bother me, provided that it has improved legroom, as others have mentioned.

Maybe, I was looking forward to fly MH (based on all the positive stories from A.net and other sites), but found it a very big disappointment. My main criterium to rate airlines is in fact food and drink service, and I found it very poor. The meals were tasteless and between dinner and breakfast (which is about 9 hours), they only came round with drinks two times.

But back to the topic, with the 77W and 2 additional 332 coming next year, are there any insights on new destinations, or will KLM use the extra capacity for nonstops to TPE and CGK?
 
AUA747
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:41 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 11:13 pm

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 17):
My longhaul experience on KLM was the absolute worst on any airline I have ever been on. Seat-pitch, IFE, onboard "service", actual seating, boarding procedure



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 5):
that sounds like a sardine can configuration

Can't agree more. IMO I think KL has a the most beautiful look then any other airline. However, their inflight service including seat pitch is very disappointing. Last time I flew KL long haul was about 5 yrs ago AUA-AMS on the MD11 which made me feel like a sardine can. For the last 5 yrs, I take CO via EWR or IAH which gives you a much better service and more kilo allowance. KL to the Caribbean gives a total of 20kg (44lbs) baggage allowance and if you exceed this they will charge you a bit over 30 euro per each additional kg, while most other carriers have a baggage allowance of 25 kg (55lbs) per suitcase, max of 2. Personally, I don't understand why.
Also, the dutch is the avg tallest person in the world, shouldn't KL take this into consideration when considering the seat pitch?

However, I have to say that my experience with their inter-europe flight was very nice.

HB-IWC, on another note, since you are very familiar with KL's operation you might be able to know this. By the end of this year AUA will do some work on its runway which will shortened the runway for a few months. There are rumors that since KL is already on a weight restriction with its MD11 when taking off out of AUA , KL is considering sending either the A330 or B777 to AUA during those months. Do you know anything about this?
 
Joost
Posts: 1845
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 6):
f LH fixes this, there are many people in the Netherlands that can use DUS as a starting point for their trip, and with current developments AMS is loosing it's top 5 position as European Mainport anyway

Eh, you suggest people should use DUS for a long-haul trip? Then you'll almost always need a connection at another airport (LHR, FRA or CDG?) to get your long-haul flight. From the Randstad, add 2 hours extra driving time and it's a whole longer trip. And: the LH in-flight product in economy isn't special either; to fly BA you need to transfer at LHR (have fun) and when customers decide to fly AF, there is no problem for KLM either.

I also do not agree with you on the correlation between KLMs in-flight product and the fact that AMS will soon be the no. 5 airport in Europe. How do you see this relation? The growth of AMS is limited by the political-environmental limits, whereas MAD has plenty of room to growth with it's new runways and T4. If AMS was able to grow as much as MAD (and would be able to guarantee it to the airlines that need to invest) it would be bigger than it's now.

DUS will not take so much traffic from AMS. Not because that market isn't there, but simply because DUS is even more capacity-limited than AMS and only has very few capacity left at the good times.
 
IL76
Posts: 2237
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:43 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 11:40 pm

I fly AMS-SIN-AMS at least once a year, normally on SQ. Next month I'll fly KLM on their 777 for the first time and I wonder if comfort will compare to the SQ seats. The KLM (and SQ) 744's are a bit cramped and the KLM 744's have no personal IFE, so I hope this will be better with the T7. If KLM will ever switch to 10 abreast, I'll immediately ditch KLM as an option and go back to SQ as first (& only?) choice and pay a few €10's more. 10 abreast? brrr... Imagine having a big person next to you for 12 hours...  scared 

E
 
747433
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:01 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Wed May 09, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
will be configured in a 35C/393Y

KL should be able to offer this config with 9 abreast Y seating at 31" provided galleys are kept to a minimum.
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 22):
h, you suggest people should use DUS for a long-haul trip? Then you'll almost always need a connection at another airport (LHR, FRA or CDG?) to get your long-haul flight. From the Randstad, add 2 hours extra driving time and it's a whole longer trip. And: the LH in-flight product in economy isn't special either; to fly BA you need to transfer at LHR (have fun) and when customers decide to fly AF, there is no problem for KLM either.

People living in the catchment area of DUS could start their trip out of DUS; people in the Randstad area could simply connect on any other carrier that is serving AMS.
When flying long-haul, to GRU to relate it to the topic, I'd rather spend 12 or 14 comfortable hours than to be squeezed into a 77W for 10+ hours.
If I were foreign and faced with the choice of an easy connection at AMS but a sub-quality inflight product, or connecting in a soon-to-be-improved T5 at LHR or FRA or MAD for that matter, I'd not be so sure I would go for the AMS option.
I agree the LH Y product isn't very attractive at the moment, that's why I said they should first get the metal that is capable of actually going somewhere. The 346 is just not competitive enough to offer the right fares and in-flight product you'd want.

Quoting Joost (Reply 22):
If AMS was able to grow as much as MAD (and would be able to guarantee it to the airlines that need to invest) it would be bigger than it's now.

You are right that my line of reasoning was a bit incomprehensible on this point, of course the restrictions at AMS are of a different nature; but the inability of AMS to grow is threatening the position of KLM; the deteriorating in-flight-product is not helping KLM either. So my point is that this is a double treat for KL, not so much Amsterdam Airport Schiphol.

To steer away from KLM bashing; I consider the current KL product pretty decent for the money that is being charged. Especially when you consider fares are generally cheaper when connecting in AMS instead of O&D booking ex-AMS on the KL network. But; there is a limit to the current policy of KL to save money on virtually everything. Putting 10 pax abreast in a 77W is certainly not done. Yes, I know EK does it; but EK get's a lot of bad reviews nowadays, and their business model and background is not at all comparable to KLM.

I just don't understand the logic of KL, except matching the exact number of seats in the 744 so it can be a one-on-one substitute in the network, which makes perfect sense when looking at cost-cutting, but not from a customer perspective.
 
Emirates029
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:13 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 1:47 am

I never get the fuss over how many seats there are in a row i.e. 9 vs 10 abreast. Maybe I'm not a very wide person, but give me more seat pitch over less seats per row anyday! What matters is how much space you have to put your legs in, not how many people are in the same row. I've never heard of someone in seat 15A feeling hot and bothered because of the person in 15K, however person 15A does get bothered by how much space is between his seat and the one in front of him.
 
jfk777
Posts: 5960
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 2:32 am

7 accross in Business and 10 abreast on a 777 in coach in BAD. KLM should know better and have 6 accross in BIZ in the 777 and 9 in coach. KLM could do something really special with its 777 but has chosen to be uncompetitive. This is also Air France's problem for letting it happen, why are the A330-200 at KLM & AF the same and not the 777 ? The only difference should be AF's 777 have First Class.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 6):
The KL product is definately detoriating, especially compared to AF. It's like deploying the 77W with COI seating on high-yielding routes. I hope KLM learns from this greedy mistake, as there is no way I am going to sit in a 10-abreast 777 with 31" (or 32") pitch - and I'm sure many people with me.

While the 31" pitch on KLM is horrible and feels far worse than AF's 31" pitch, the inflight service on KLM far exceeds AF in Economy. The IFE is better, the cabin crew is friendlier, the alcohol flows more easily, and the inflight meals are better than on AF.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
JRadier
Posts: 3944
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 16):
The current product is already sub-standard



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 19):
With the 772 they go back to industry averages

Right..... so first it's sub-standard (tho it looks to me it's more on the low side of average, not sub-standard), and then it's average again?

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 19):
There is something seriously wrong with KL management

Tho you seem to forget they run a very nice profit, so that 'seriously wrong KL management' does something right now don't they?
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
Joost
Posts: 1845
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 25):
the deteriorating in-flight-product is not helping KLM either.

I have the impression that for KLM, in order to survive with their extensive network, cutting costs is a lot more important than it's argued in the threads on A.net. Apparantly, there is a market for a lower-cost lower-price network carrier and as KLM doesn't have a home market like BA, AF or LH they need to do something to differentiate. Hubbing at AMS is one, lower costs can work very well. Maybe not for all travelers, but it appeals to many. Looking at myself, with similar prices I'd rather fly 10-abreast 31" AMS-JFK on KL, than flying AMS-LHR-JFK on BA or AMS-FRA-JFK on LH: it just saves me 4-5 hours traveling.

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 14):
Not to mention the frequent cancellations and overbooking KLM is notorious for....

This is, IMHO, a way more important threat to KLM. IMO, there defenitely is a market for a lower-cost lower-service long-haul network carrier, as long as it's reliable. Interesting enough, they use "the reliable airline" as their marketing slogan - they really need to be reliable at all times. Not to mention the costs of irregularites, that can offset many flights' profits in one cancellation.

Again, I'd rather fly 10-abreast 31" when I'm sure it's on-time and I have my seat, than 9-abreast 32" and 4 hours delayed.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 6):
). Now don't give me this stuff about the 346 once being a good plane, LH is still ordering them while the performance is proved to be inferior, so I don't buy that argument.

Um, the 777-300ER might be better, but the 346 is a fantastic aircraft.

NS
 
blast
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:25 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting Emirates029 (Reply 26):
give me more seat pitch over less seats per row anyday

I so agree here. Also, I will be flying to JFK in September and being from Amsterdam myself, I really will not look at flights originating anywhere else than AMS, so DUS or BRU for instance will be no option, nor will a change-over at FRA, CDG or LHR be an option. So I'll be looking at KL or any of the American carriers that fly AMS-JFK direct.
 
IL76
Posts: 2237
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:43 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting Emirates029 (Reply 26):
Maybe I'm not a very wide person, but give me more seat pitch over less seats per row anyday!

Maybe you are not wide, but in general, chances on having a very large man sitting next to you are a lot higher than having a skinny little asian neighbour, expecially flying to the USA (no pun intended). Having those few inches on the sides and a slightly wider armrest for 2 arms is a blessing, trust me.
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 29):

Right..... so first it's sub-standard (tho it looks to me it's more on the low side of average, not sub-standard), and then it's average again?

Certain KLM planes are definately sub standard. I'd be ashamed recommending KLM, and having him end up in a 74M without decent IFE and whatsoever for hours in a row. Nor fly to YUL and find the plane INOP and therefore being stranded without any decent excuse except that the M11 is so nicely cheap to operate.

Quoting JRadier (Reply 29):
Tho you seem to forget they run a very nice profit, so that 'seriously wrong KL management' does something right now don't they?

Running profit in the short run isn't difficult, but that's KLM's priority now. AF management is slowly taking over the company and it is clear that some people go at length to boost financial performance and try to secure their positions.
IMHO KLM was doing the right thing opting for 32" pitch, PTV in economy and decent but not excellent cabin service. KLM could develop in a respected and preferred carrier, not because of price but because of being reliable and comfortable.
 
JRadier
Posts: 3944
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 34):
Certain KLM planes are definately sub standard

yet you start about the 777 in the post I was referring to.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 5:50 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 35):

yet you start about the 777 in the post I was referring to.

Correct. To clarify:
Do I think the current 772 config is sub-standard?
For C, yes, a middle-seat is doubtful at least.
For Y, no, I think it is at par with other carriers, albeit 31" pitch is tight no matter how you look at it.

Do I think the proposed 77W config is sub-standard?
Yes, when the layout is 3-4-3 it is; there should be at least a 3-3-3 section for full-Y fare paying pax and/or SkyTeam Elites.

Do I say I hate KLM and you should never fly with them because they are bad no matter what? No, that's by no means the point I trying to make here. In fact, I've logged 4 KLM flights this year to date and plan to take a couple more. Seen my profile not too bad I reckon.
 
JRadier
Posts: 3944
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 36):
For C, yes, a middle-seat is doubtful at least.

Yet it stacks up pretty good in your list, especially with BA 2-4-2. Can't respond to it from a passenger POV tho.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 36):
albeit 31" pitch is tight no matter how you look at it.

Have to agree here, but it might have something to do with it that I'm 6'6"(or 2m).

77W I'm not commenting on yet as the final seatplan is not yet announced.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 37):
Quoting PHKLM (Reply 36):
For C, yes, a middle-seat is doubtful at least.

Yet it stacks up pretty good in your list, especially with BA 2-4-2. Can't respond to it from a passenger POV tho.

Yeah, but a 2-3-2 on most carriers with their semi-lie flat seats can't touch BA's unique 2-4-2 in J. I would actually call BA's configuration more of a 2-1-2-1-2 configuration.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 6:23 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 38):
I would actually call BA's configuration more of a 2-1-2-1-2 configuration.

Trying to get us utterly confused, don't you Big grin
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19287
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
I prefer EK's 10-across with 34' pitch over 9-across with 32' pitch....that's just the pits....

Not me, but it helps if you're not too tall. I was on 2 BA 772s a month or so ago in Y, both close to full, and couldn't imagine squeezing in one more passenger across. The seats/aisles/armrests must be narrower at 10-abreast and they're narrow enough at 9-abreast.

However, few Y class passengers on longhaul routes travel more than once a year, and usually less, and don't know anything about seating configurations or pitches. Provided the fare is competitive, they'll put up with anything.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 38):
Yeah, but a 2-3-2 on most carriers with their semi-lie flat seats can't touch BA's unique 2-4-2 in J. I would actually call BA's configuration more of a 2-1-2-1-2 configuration.

AC's 1-2-1 (or more like 1-1-1-1) in J on their new 777-300ERs (and 1-1-1 on reconfigured 763s) is much better than any 2-3-2 layout on a 777, and in my opinion better than the BA J layout.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 7:01 am

I am not fond of 10-abreast in the 777, but for those criticizing KLM, think again. Coach is uncomfortable no matter what. It can only be good on an empty flight! The average passenger flying coach between Amsterdam and some distant destination will arrive in pieces. That passenger does not have a clue about seat width, and will likely not notice the missing inch. Only a small savvy share will book elsewhere.

Furthermore, when it comes to GRU-AMS, in the Brazil end KLM is known for being an attractive choice to Europe. To most tourist travelers, KLM is another European carrier which frequently has the best fare, with better service than Iberia or Alitalia. Many travelers end up on KLM because they can buy a discount roundtrip for $850 on KLM instead of $900 on Lufthansa. Using high density seating will allow KLM to be even more competitive in pricing while tallying up more revenue per flight. The 10-abreast coach seating might be the best decision for this market.
Stop pop up ads
 
2wingtips
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:42 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 8:44 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 31):
Um, the 777-300ER might be better, but the 346 is a fantastic aircraft.

Great. Fantastic it may be, but success is derived from Orders. 346 orders are virtually zero now and have been for quite a while. The 773ER has decimated it, so comparatively it is far from a fantastic aircraft IMO.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 9:38 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 40):
Not me, but it helps if you're not too tall. I was on 2 BA 772s a month or so ago in Y, both close to full, and couldn't imagine squeezing in one more passenger across. The seats/aisles/armrests must be narrower at 10-abreast and they're narrow enough at 9-abreast

EK seems to pack 'em in on many flights....it can't be too bad, otherwise pax would revolt.....I have spoken with many people who have flown EK and prefer the extra pitch over the extra width....
"Up the Irons!"
 
mindscape
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:28 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 12:22 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 19):
But then they upgrade the 332 to AF standards. OK, no big deal, as it's an improvement for the customer. But this is the first diversion from that strategy.



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 27):
why are the A330-200 at KLM & AF the same and not the 777

Sorry to ask, but in which way do AF and KL A332 are the same ?
AF A332 : 40J 179Y
KL A332 : 30J 221Y

Do galleys and lavatories are located at the exact same place in both airliners ?
 
Joost
Posts: 1845
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 3:32 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 34):
KLM could develop in a respected and preferred carrier, not because of price but because of being reliable and comfortable.

IMO, they can't. They do not have the highest possible profit-generating home market like AF, BA or LH. Although connecting people can be great business, the best yields you usually get from your home market - you can already see that AMS-NRT is more expensive than DUS-AMS-NRT for example.

Next to that, if they want to maintain their own identity they need to differentiate from AF; otherwise, there will not be any use for maintaining 2 different brands. People that are connecting on important connecting markets (Europe-US, Europe-India, Europe-Japan, Europe-China, India-US, Africa-US) have the choice to fly KLM or Air France. By having KLM more low-cost-low-service-low-price, and AF more high-service including First class; they can clearly indicate there is a difference, present it to the customer and let the customer make his decision.

Having a low cost base as a key driver of your business model has proven itself often to be, despeit loads of critics from everyone that wants service, very sustainable and profitable. In the airline business, just look at Southwest and in Europe Ryanair and easyJet. And what about Aldi, Wal-Mart, you name it: in all media and forums everyone says it's crap but they're all among the most profitable companies in the world. That's what shareholders want.

For the importance of KLM to the Dutch economy: if their current strategy, by differentiating from AF and being one of the cheaper connecting airlines, allows for maintaining the long-haul network there is: that is way more important for the economy than some good Y-seats. Better to have the current network and current cabin-service; than have a top-notch in-flight product and only serve JFK and ORD. Besides, the real money-generating travelers don't fly economy anyways. And although the middle seat in C isn't perfect, it's said that this seats are often either empty, either used for upgrades.
 
larspl
Posts: 351
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 5:23 pm

@ Joost,

KLM can not differentiate to much from AF, otherwise their markets will not complete each other. The big win is that a pax from A to D can now fly with AF-KLM on the outbound via AMS and inbound via CDG, offering way more connections. but if the product on in and outbound would be completely different, that concept would not work anymore.

Besides that, a lot of KLM's pax are flying KLM not especially for the bit lower fare or the 1"more or less but also because of the flightcrew. Compared to middle/far east or american cabin crew, european crew is a lot different.

KLM may not be the best, but it is not sub-standard. why? because there is no standard, every airline sales an other product. KLMs IFE is award winning, only problem is: not all aircraft have it yet.
facebook.com/ddaclassicairlines
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 5:35 pm

Quoting LarSPL (Reply 46):
KLM can not differentiate to much from AF, otherwise their markets will not complete each other. The big win is that a pax from A to D can now fly with AF-KLM on the outbound via AMS and inbound via CDG, offering way more connections. but if the product on in and outbound would be completely different, that concept would not work anymore.

Exactly. And it might even be the case that the KLM brand name disappears. Or at least integration is taken to the next level in order to reap the advantages of the merger. If the KL product would diverge too much.
The added benefits would be combined plane ordering, identical config's for easy swapping of planes in the network, etc.
That's why I am surprised by some moves the KL management is making right now, or about to make as stated by HB-IWC in the first post of this thread.
 
HB-IWC
Topic Author
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 6:12 pm

Quoting AUA747 (Reply 21):
HB-IWC, on another note, since you are very familiar with KL's operation you might be able to know this. By the end of this year AUA will do some work on its runway which will shortened the runway for a few months. There are rumors that since KL is already on a weight restriction with its MD11 when taking off out of AUA , KL is considering sending either the A330 or B777 to AUA during those months. Do you know anything about this?

As far as I know, the nonstop terminators to AUA will be cut for that period of time, and flights will refuel elsewhere in the region before heading back to AMS.

Quoting Joost (Reply 30):
Interesting enough, they use "the reliable airline" as their marketing slogan - they really need to be reliable at all times.

Let's just say that the "reliable airline" aura of KLM has suffered quite some damage over the past couple of months. It all started with the MD11 debacle, and has since evolved into schedule reductions, multiple aircraft changes, delays and cancellations to such an extent that the KLM widebody operations is currently anything but reliable. The source of this misery seems to be KLM's reckless disregard for the rules that govern airline operational models. Given the abysmal MD11 dispatch reliability rates and the increasing age of the 747 fleet, KLM's scheduling team should have been more realistic in setting up the current summer schedule, which features yet another increase in utilization rates and total number of sectors flown, while further reducing the amount of operational spare in the system. The results have been clear and anyone remotely familiar with the KLM longhaul operation will know that the last couple of weeks have been nothing short of disastrous.
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: KLM B77W First Destinations

Thu May 10, 2007 6:24 pm

I just saw on www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl that KLM will be selling Y seats with extra pitch (most likely the emergency exit seats) for EUR 50 extra per flight. It will be free for Platinum and Gold Flying Blue members, but they expect that those ppl will usually fly Business class.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos