DL757
Topic Author
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 11:47 pm

Another B737 uncommanded roll

Mon Mar 01, 1999 11:03 pm

Another incident involving an uncommanded roll of a Boeing 737 occurred Tuesday when a US Airways Metrojet 737-200 banked unexpectedly while cruising at FL330 during a flight from Orlando, Fla., to Hartford, Conn. The crew shut off hydraulic power to the rudder's power-control unit before switching to a backup system, then made an emergency landing in
Baltimore. The anomaly involved an uncommanded left yoke deflection and offset rudder pedals. This in-flight incident followed last Friday's discovery of stiff rudder pedals on a UAL 737 during preflight at the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport.

So, who still wants to fly the 737 ?
Fly Delta Jets | DL757
 
BryanG
Posts: 955
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:59 am

RE: Another B737 uncommanded roll

Tue Mar 02, 1999 12:06 am

I just booked a trip on UAL over the internet this morning. I'll be going ORD-GSO on a 737. I'm not planning to change.

A 737 takes off or lands every 6 seconds somewhere around the world. They don't crash a whole lot. It's safer than walking down the street on a sunny day.
 
CX747
Posts: 5580
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: Another B737 uncommanded roll

Tue Mar 02, 1999 1:15 am

I still fly a 737 any day of the week. It is still one of the safest aircraft. How about those A300,310,330 go arounds?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Lindy
Posts: 4722
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 10:42 pm

RE: Another B737 uncommanded roll

Tue Mar 02, 1999 2:00 am

DL757 you scared me to death! Yestorday I worked on USAirways MetroJet B737-200 at IAD. After pushback we took only one part of By-Pass Safety Pin (we didnt know that second part stock right there). After rolling on taxiway, pilot wanted to go back to the gate because some problems ocured. After two hours problem was fixed. That flight was to ATL.
I'm going to my employer right now to give them my resignation letter. Be a Ramp Agent is a big responsability.

Rafal
BWIADCA - Nikon D100
 
Navion
Posts: 1053
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:52 am

RE: Another B737 uncommanded roll

Tue Mar 02, 1999 2:25 am

I would be interested to know if DL757 is a pilot. From the tone of his letter I would say no. And for Rafael the gate agent, same thing. There are over 3,000 of these aircraft flying in every situation imaginable in every place imaginable. It is important you understand the engineering, testing, and proper procedures before you act like a newspaper reporter and create hysteria from a point of ignorance. C'mon guys, we as enthusiasts (and pilots ourselves for some of us) have to be better than the common layman.
 
Navion
Posts: 1053
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:52 am

RE: Another B737 uncommanded roll

Tue Mar 02, 1999 2:42 am

I would like to apologize to DL757 and Rafael if it appears I came on too strongly in my response to your comments. DL757 included some good background specifics, but I didn't care for the comment about flying 737's. I'll try to be less hasty and more considerate in how my responses sound in the future.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

Bypass saftey pin????

Tue Mar 02, 1999 3:48 am

Question.

When we did 737 pushbacks at Alaska I don't remember there being a bypass pin on the 737 nosegear. I remember there was a pin that had to be attached to the nosegear on the MD-80 but I don't remember one on the 737. This of course was four years ago so my memory may be a little shot.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
JETPILOT
Posts: 3094
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 6:40 am

RE: Another B737 uncommanded roll

Tue Mar 02, 1999 4:30 am

Then you had better eliminate flying on 747's also because they use the same 737 rudder actuator on the 747 as the elevator actuator. The Pitsburgh crash was not an uncommanded roll. It was a rudder hardover. And after the crash the actuator was examined and found to be funtionioning properly. Boeing took a retired 737 and put it's rudder through every test immaginable and found nothing. If you want to be scared be scared of Kapton wiring. Be vary scared. It causes arc tracking when it burns. This means that as it burns it turns to carbon which is one of the most conductive elements known. (ex) Swissair. The US navy has grounded every Tomcat wired with the stuff, and specified all new aircraft delivered be wired with something different. (I forgot the name). The Tomcat has suffered an attrition rate of about 300 aircraft due to electrical failure. The only New airliner to use the new wiring is boeing in the 757. And it is only using it in the aircraft delivered to US airways. Because there the only airline to specify this. I wonder why?
 
DL757
Topic Author
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 11:47 pm

RE: Another B737 uncommanded roll

Tue Mar 02, 1999 4:48 am

No, Navion, I'm not a pilot. That shouldn't matter anyway. Especially becasue I'm not a pilot these things don't mean that much to me so I post this to get other peoples opinions. I agree that my last remark was not based on facts but I wanted to get some discusion going from you guys who know about this stuff.

I am not sure I like the way you guys brush this off as just another little hitch. Imagine what those us air pilots must have thought. It scared them enough to make a emergancy landing that means something (in my humble no pilot opinion).
Fly Delta Jets | DL757
 
will
Posts: 305
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 12:31 am

RE: Bypass saftey pin????

Tue Mar 02, 1999 4:59 am

G'day L-188.
The b737-100/200 series had to during pushback switch the system A electrical and No1 enigine hyd's switches off to prevent hyd power to the nosewheel steering. This came with a few funny failures when electrical power was lost during pushback for whatever reason, and the power to off solinoid "failed to on", on the No 1, thus a tow bar break was stuffered. On the 300/400/500 series, a by-pass pin was installed.
See yah..
Will..
 
Lindy
Posts: 4722
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 10:42 pm

RE: Bypass saftey pin????

Tue Mar 02, 1999 5:21 am

To all of you guys

YES. B737-200 HAS NOSEGEAR BYPASS SAFETY PIN, SHAPE "T". I'm working on; B737-200 (MetroJet) B737-300/400 (USAirways) DC-9 and MD-80 (also USAirways).F-100 (USAirways) For all those planes you need By-Pass Safety Pin!!! You dont need only for F-100 because in this kind of aircraft you have it next to communication ports with pilots (on the right side of the plane). There is little red switch, when you click that you will see red light on, it means that parking brakes are released and you are ready to connect towbar to the aircraft.
Navion - yes I'm working as a Airlines Ramp Agent at IAD. I'm not fake. Do I have to prove it? Ask me anything concerning my position, I will glad to answer.

Regards
Rafal

PS- I'm working also on Prop-planes such as:B1900, SF-340, DHC-8, J31, (USAir Express, USAirways Express) it suck! No belt-loaders!!
BWIADCA - Nikon D100
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Bypass saftey pin????

Tue Mar 02, 1999 5:57 am

That jives with what I remember from AS. I mostly worked with the last 727 that the had or the 737-200QC's. And I do recall being told that it was an internal system that the pilots used. But I don't remember any difference between that aircraft and the -400's. But like I said before this was four years ago and because of the shift I had I didn't work many -400's.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

rudder trouble

Tue Mar 02, 1999 11:40 am

It's the not knowing the cause of the Pitttsburg/Colorado Springs crashes and the other 737 rudder deflections that make it so spooky. Yet another uncommanded rudder deflection occurred with an Eastwind 737 on approach to RIC The pilots recovered by using assymetric thrust, I believe. Otherwise it's more unexplained loss of life. I will fly on 737's, but until I see some likely explanations, and a plan of correction, why take the risk (albeit incredibly miniscule) if you can make thre trip on another otherwise acceptable aircraft? Anyone know of a website that analyzes all the 737 rudder incidents around the world?
 
L1011
Posts: 2135
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:02 am

RE: rudder trouble

Tue Mar 02, 1999 12:00 pm

Speaking of the Eastwind 737's uncommanded roll at RIC, I flew on that aircraft on its first flight out after it had been grounded, on 7/2/96, from RIC to TTN. Boy was I worried!

Bob Bradley
Richmond, VA
Fly Eastern's Golden Falcon DC-7B
 
winair
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 1:41 pm

RE: Another B737 uncommanded roll

Tue Mar 02, 1999 1:26 pm

The 737 is a great aircraft but how many accidents have happened with the roll on a 37...
 
will
Posts: 305
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 12:31 am

RE: Bypass saftey pin????

Tue Mar 02, 1999 5:21 pm

G'day All.
That could be true...On our Ansett B737-200's we no nose wheel by-pass saftey pin value, but our -300's did have it fitted. l've dispatch a million of the type's over the years so it's easy to remember what had what with our A/C, but who knows what other B737-200's were modified with. lt sounds like that it could have been a mod programme for the -200's to have the by-pass value install, because it gave us endless trobles in the early years with the -200's..

See yah..

Will....
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Bypass saftey pin????

Wed Mar 03, 1999 5:37 am

The other thing about Alaska Airs 737-200 fleet is that most of them have been modified with gravel kits. The nosegear doors are modified and a plate is mounted on the back of the wheels to keep the gravel down. I don't know if there where any modifications to the stearing system because of this but it is possible that the pin may have been removed as part of this mod.

Maybe??
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Satchmo
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:25 am

RE: rudder trouble

Wed Mar 03, 1999 5:09 pm

I absolutely agree with you, John. There are two losses of aircraft (United 585 near Colorado Springs and USAir 427 near Pittsburgh) which have not been fully explained. However most experts believe that both crashes, which claimed the life of 157 people, as well as the Eastwind incident were caused by uncommanded rudder troubles due to failures in the PCU an/or yaw dumper system. Apart from that there have been hundreds of incidents where pilots reported uncommanded swings of the rudder in the 737's long carrer. All the early models had no system to limit a possible uncommanded rudder movement. Unfortunately Boeing and the FAA have been very slow and reluctant to act. This is understandable, but not acceptable and could lead to more incidents. Just imagine the millions of pounds it would cost Boeing to acknowledge that the rudder is defective and the associated changes to almost 3000 in-service aircraft. However, Boeing at least introduced some changes to new-build versions of the 737, which of course do not affect all the previous models. Don't get me wrong: I don't think the 737 is an unsafe aircraft (I just flew on one two weeks ago), but in the interest of flight safety it would be better to fully investigate the causes of this rudder phenomenon.
John, there is a report on the following site:
http://www.seattletimes.com/extra/browse/html/rudd_102796.html#background