OPNLguy
Topic Author
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

Major U.S. Airlines And RNP

Wed May 09, 2007 10:50 pm

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1427
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

RE: Major U.S. Airlines And RNP

Wed May 09, 2007 10:57 pm

Goes along the lines with this article:

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...e146e-091f-4be9-a8c2-fa01d025b045&

OPNL....you would probably know this...how are flights cleared for an RNP approach? Is it filed or assigned by ATC?

Thanks..
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Major U.S. Airlines And RNP

Wed May 09, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 1):
OPNL....you would probably know this...how are flights cleared for an RNP approach? Is it filed or assigned by ATC?

I don't know; RNP will be new here, so training materials aren't out yet....

Looking at this approach for PSP as an example, I'm guessing that it's something that you wouldn't file, per se, but just something you'd be cleared for on arrival into the area.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0704/00545RRY13R.PDF

[Edited 2007-05-09 16:21:22]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Major U.S. Airlines And RNP

Thu May 10, 2007 12:37 am

Good stuff OPNguy, as always!  Smile

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 1):
how are flights cleared for an RNP approach?

The approach name on the charts I've seen to date is RNAV (RNP) RWY XX, so the clearance would be RNAV approach was what is inside the parenthesis isn't not supposed to be issued in the clearance.

The RNP certification is gaining steam, but goodness it is a slooooow process.

The Quito approach is a good example of diverts being avoided with the lower minimums for one fleet type while another fleet tupe not yet RNP certified can't get to the lower mins and is forced miss the approach, try another if they have gas or divert......same company. Each fleet type is required to have their own certifcation.

So, my question is, will tight RNP approach procedures, say .1, will they require the autopilot to be coupled or will they be able to be hand flown?

I'm sure each operator will have their own ops specs, but will the certification be restrictive to autopilot coupled, then what about the missed when you hit TOGA, some autopilots disconnect, while the RNP value might not significantly increase in the missed approach segment.....anyone got good info on that?

Another thing to think of....the FAA mentions all these RNAV (RNP) approaches to places like ATL and DFW, but at airports with simultaneous approach operations to parallel runways, the approaches can't be used in simultaneous ops, as the controller handbook only addresses ILS/MLS.  Confused

More work to be done!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Major U.S. Airlines And RNP

Thu May 10, 2007 5:31 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 3):
So, my question is, will tight RNP approach procedures, say .1, will they require the autopilot to be coupled or will they be able to be hand flown?

At my carrier all RNP approaches require the autopilot to be used.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 3):
I'm sure each operator will have their own ops specs, but will the certification be restrictive to autopilot coupled, then what about the missed when you hit TOGA, some autopilots disconnect, while the RNP value might not significantly increase in the missed approach segment.....anyone got good info on that?

The autopilot is not required to be used in the event of a missed approach, but almost always would be if initiated at the DA. The issue with a rejected landing is more complex. The larger problem isn't with the A/P disconnecting with TOGA selection (I have not flown an EFIS equipped aircraft that does that) but that the lateral mode of many autopilots reverts to ground track, requiring prompt selection of LNAV after TOGA selection (and above the altitude that LNAV is available, which varies by aircraft type) and the SA to maneuver fairly aggressively in the event of automation difficulties; as you mention Quito is an excellent example of this.

It will be interesting to watch RNP become more integrated into the airspace system. It's technologically stunning, but is very training intensive.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Major U.S. Airlines And RNP

Thu May 10, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 4):
but is very training intensive.

Oh for sure, buddy of mine just talked with and he is doing his reading on RNP pilot bulletin he just got yesterday, he says "this shit is work"  Smile

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 4):
but that the lateral mode of many autopilots reverts to ground track, requiring prompt selection of LNAV after TOGA selection

I found out I was misinformed again!!! I guess when you hit TOGA the aircraft is more likely to go to wings level, that would be fun when starting an RF leg turn.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 4):
At my carrier all RNP approaches require the autopilot to be used.

Regardless of the RNP value?
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Major U.S. Airlines And RNP

Thu May 10, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 3):
So, my question is, will tight RNP approach procedures, say .1, will they require the autopilot to be coupled or will they be able to be hand flown?

Supposedly coupled for the first couple of years unless straight in to an independent runway with no surrounding obstacles.

FAA = Sissy's

Probably do the same once LAAS comes on line as well. Assuming they figure it out.

[Edited 2007-05-09 23:14:29]
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5159
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Major U.S. Airlines And RNP

Thu May 10, 2007 6:19 am

Having seen firsthand what a difference it makes when a carrier like Alaska can get into places like PSP when others can't, by using RNP, it makes a lot of sense for major US carriers to get it going now.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Major U.S. Airlines And RNP

Thu May 10, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 6):
FAA = Sissy's

You know my thoughts on that!  thumbsup 

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 7):
it makes a lot of sense for major US carriers to get it going now.

Funny thing with US carriers and the above mentioned sissy group, I heard this recently at a meeting, even with Alaska having used RNP since 1996, IIRC, if Qantas continues to fly RNP approaches they will surpass Alaska this fall in the total number of RNP approaches flown.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.

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