jimyvr
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EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 2:22 pm

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=8853

Sort of a comprehensive report on Emirates before the Chairman flies to Seattle on the weekend of 12MAY07.


Highlights

► On the shopping list - more 777s, A350-900/-1000, 787, 747-8I
► Airline focused on fuel efficiency even if it means slight capacity drop
► Operation of Jebel Ali Airport could impact order. All 6 runway to be operational by 2014, but any delay will force the airline goes bigger aircraft
► Still eyeing 787-10X and 747-8I. Talks with Boeing will be on definition.
► The "champion" of its fleet, 777-300ER, according to Emirates' wish, to go lighter to encounter A350-1000 if Airbus lived up to the promise
► Not interested in 777-400ER, only even more better fuel burn for lighter 777-300ER
► Enthusiasm for 787 still exist, but will see any progress on 787-10X performance
► order for 787-9 still not ruled out, but depends on when Jebel Ali opens
► 747-8I range issue remains on the DXB - LAX, which the airline still sees a niche
Denies the impending order of 100 A350 and 60 A330, No decisions made
► Unconvinced about Airbus's intention to stick with composite panels on an aluminum frame for the A350.
► A380 add-on order not part of compensation package
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
UAEflyer
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 2:31 pm

So now they focus on fuel consuming, but what aircraft they are implying to??
Both aircrafts A350 & B787 are very fuel efficient
 
phishphan70
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 2:35 pm

how many 77W's does EK have? would be interesting to see Boeing jump on this and try to put the 77W on a diet, but with sales like they have been, i see the aircraft staying the way it is, atleast until the 787 line is fully churning. unlike EK however, i would Love to see a 774ER!
 
VHVXB
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 2:44 pm

Quoting Phishphan70 (Reply 2):
how many 77W's does EK have?

36 in the fleet at the moment
 
SkyGazer
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 2:55 pm

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 3):
Quoting Phishphan70 (Reply 2):
how many 77W's does EK have?

36 in the fleet at the moment

Make that 25  Wink
Types flown: B738, B772ER, B773, B77W, B744, A310, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A388
 
manni
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 3:00 pm

Interesting comments from Mr. Clark.

He also reiterated that the four A380s ordered last week were not part of the compensation package for delayed deliveries (ATWOnline, May 8). "This is a new order for aircraft we need and we were able to take some delivery slots that opened up," he said. EK is confident that Airbus has sorted out its A380 problems and he said that once it is in service, airlines will clamor to get onboard: "The seat-mile costs are stellar."
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
VHVXB
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 3:01 pm

Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 4):
Make that 25

Sorry my mistake. I included the non ER as well. Thanks for correction
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 3:28 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
The "champion" of its fleet, 777-300ER, according to Emirates' wish, to go lighter to encounter A350-1000 if Airbus lived up to the promise

I find this an interesting comment. In one sense, Boeing has the distinct advantage (in 2007) that the A350-1000 is likely a decade away and the 773ER has almost no competition until that point. Emirates may want "more" (when do they not?) performance, but what other choice do they have when it comes to fuel efficiency? Are they not going to buy more 773ER if Boeing doesn't knock-off another 2-3% of SFC? Doubtful. Would slightly reducing fuel burn win orders that would otherwise go to the A346? Again, probably not as the 773ER has already demonstrated superior SFC.

At this point, Boeing doesn't have an incentive to offer anything more than the exotic trim materials they pitched QF when they were evaluating non-stop SYD-LHR with the 772LR.
 
2wingtips
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 3:29 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
► order for 787-9 still not ruled out, but depends on when Jebel Ali opens

Mmmm, that may surprise a few, thinking the main models for consideration were 787-10/A350-1000. Looks like they may consider using the smaller -9 if Jebel Ali opens on time and runway development goes to plan.
Can Boeing get -9s to EK a bit earlier than anticipated.
Clearly, the mega 330/350 order is not as certain as many of the Airbus diehards will have us believe.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 3:49 pm

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 8):
Can Boeing get -9s to EK a bit earlier than anticipated.

Assuming that no major 787 orders are canceled and that Boeing doesn't ramp-up production rates faster than what is currently planned, EK could start getting 787-9 slots by 2013.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 3:55 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
At this point, Boeing doesn't have an incentive to offer anything more than the exotic trim materials they pitched QF when they were evaluating non-stop SYD-LHR with the 772LR.

I would imagine that Boeing makes a fairly decent sum on all the upgrade kits they make available so that owners of older planes can get the latest and greatest fuel burn reducing developments on their 777.

So if they arrive at upgrades that are easy enough and cheap enough to retrofit the next time the 777 is in for a new interior and/or D check. well its money in the bank.

Most importantly IF GE does an engine for the A350XWB-1000, I would almost put money on that engine being the little brother of the engine going on the 777"NG". Thus leaving Boeing plenty of time to ALSO do all the nifty stuff they want to for the KC767 and 767LRF, AND start work on a 787NG... w/o bothering to spend money on Y3 till 2016 or later.

If GE bails on the GE90 replacement engine, then I can only see a quick and dirty "NG" program for the 777 that only uses whats on the shelf or easy to CAD up and throw on.
 
slz396
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 4:07 pm

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 8):
Clearly, the mega 330/350 order is not as certain as many of the Airbus diehards will have us believe.

At present, the A330/A350 mega order is one well defined option open to EK, which they have clearly accepted as a possible way forward for them.

However, they still want to hear what Boeing can do for them, so that's why EK currently is maintaining the line they haven't 'decided' yet and why they are giving Boeing a sort of last chance next week when Mr. Clark goes to Seatlle to hear Boeing's answer to their demands. Clearly EK does NOT want to hear Boeing offer them anything from their present catalogue, but expect the manufacturer to magically pull out some sort of 777NG as well as early delivery slots on both the 787-10 (which isn't even launched yet) and 787-9 all at once...

Given the unlikeliness of all that together, my view is Tim Clark will go back to Dubai to weigh off both propositions and will sign for extra planes from Airbus at Farnborough....
 
jacobin777
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 11):
Clearly EK does NOT want to hear Boeing offer them anything from their present catalogue,

..would you care to explain what these mean?

"Clark will be working with Boeing to define where the 787-10X and 747-8I sit on range/payload while his wish list contains a lighter 777-300ER"

"He did not rule out a buy of the smaller 787-9"

""Sure, if we go the A350 route we will need some interim lift, and the A330 would fit that bill, but no decisions have been made,""

......you seem quite certain Slz396 that they will go Airbus, which goes smack dab against what EK management is saying....

I say its still a toss-up....
"Up the Irons!"
 
n1786b
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
Assuming that no major 787 orders are canceled and that Boeing doesn't ramp-up production rates faster than what is currently planned, EK could start getting 787-9 slots by 2013.

Air et Cosmos ran a story saying Emirates is putting the pressure on Boeing to open a second line and to launch and accelerate the 787-10 development schedule. As they know they can't push AB on the A350 schedule, they are putting pressure on B.

- n1786b
 
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scbriml
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 4:43 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 11):
and will sign for extra planes from Airbus at Farnborough....

That's a long time for us to wait! Paris, on the other hand, would be much more exciting.  wink 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 5:02 pm

Once again more public negotiating throughout the media from mister Clark. I find it fascinating to see, but every time he really doesn't say anything at all, leaving everyone spinning his words one way or the other.

Really, Mr. Clark, put a  footinmouth  and just do your business in quiet. He is loosing credibility buy saying a lot, but not acting. Ah well, maybe it's just me.

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
baroque
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 5:08 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 14):
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 11):
and will sign for extra planes from Airbus at Farnborough....

That's a long time for us to wait! Paris, on the other hand, would be much more exciting.

A collective noun is needed to prevent this type of (totally understandable) error, how about Parnborough? It is better than Farnis I think, although Faris might be possible?  Confused

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 10):
Most importantly IF GE does an engine for the A350XWB-1000, I would almost put money on that engine being the little brother of the engine going on the 777"NG". Thus leaving Boeing plenty of time to ALSO do all the nifty stuff they want to for the KC767 and 767LRF, AND start work on a 787NG... w/o bothering to spend money on Y3 till 2016 or later.

That might depend on the thrust needed for a 777NG. If it is = or > than the 115s, it might be difficult to make it cover the range down to the XWB-1000, if I remember La's comments correctly.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 5:20 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 16):
That might depend on the thrust needed for a 777NG. If it is = or > than the 115s, it might be difficult to make it cover the range down to the XWB-1000, if I remember La's comments correctly.

I'm assuming that it would be a 90K/115K thrust "range" like the current GE90 if they did it. I can't possibly imagine a MTOW weight growth above the current 777LR family as being needed. Weight reductions and efficiency gains could knock out huge gains in range and payload depending on how far they go. Increase MZFW and MLW would be nice to see as it would help the 777F and shorter ranged missions with the 773ER pack on the payload.
 
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autothrust
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 7:28 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 5):
EK is confident that Airbus has sorted out its A380 problems and he said that once it is in service, airlines will clamor to get onboard: "The seat-mile costs are stellar."

Good news, but could this be a hint that the 748 will not be able to match the A380 efficiency or that the A380 is behaving better then promised? scratchchin 

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 15):
Once again more public negotiating throughout the media from mister Clark. I find it fascinating to see, but every time he really doesn't say anything at all, leaving everyone spinning his words one way or the other.

Couldnt agree more, really tiresome. Wasnt it Routers which claimerd EK would order the A350?
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
CYatUK
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 7:35 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 15):
Really, Mr. Clark, put a and just do your business in quiet. He is loosing credibility buy saying a lot, but not acting. Ah well, maybe it's just me.

I don't really get the point. He is not "obliged" to act. Its his game and with his frequent appearances manages to give regular publicity to the company.

The fact that airliners.net fans (including me) await an announcement from EK does not make the issue any more urgent for them.
CY@Uk
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 9:00 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Airline focused on fuel efficiency even if it means slight capacity drop

This almost sounds like EK has dropped their "make the 747-8 bigger" push and might be considering it?

Anyway, I'm sick of EK putzing in to Airbus and Boeing and demanding that they get the exact airplane that is perfect for them. Everytime either manufacturer does something to improve the product, EK just wants a little more. I'm sure Boeing can offer a very attractive 777/787 package to EK, but if they want a little more efficiency or range, Boeing should seriously just walk away. This is getting freakin ridiculous...
 
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Stitch
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 9:14 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 18):
Good news, but could this be a hint that the 748 will not be able to match the A380 efficiency or that the A380 is behaving better then promised?

Well one can safely assume EK will be going for high-density seating on at least part of the fleet, so that's going to help, but even then, one would expect the A388 to perform very well in this category.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 20):
This almost sounds like EK has dropped their "make the 747-8 bigger" push and might be considering it?

EK actually wants a smaller (well, shorter) 747-8I with better range. However, since EK prefers higher seating densities, I imagine that Clark probably prefers the current 747-8I's length, he just wants to be able to get 8300+nm out of her when actually carrying closer to 467 passengers then 400.

As to the 777-300ER, I am sure Boeing continues to try and make it even better for many reasons, including to keep EK buying them by the flock.  Smile

[Edited 2007-05-10 14:19:13]
 
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scbriml
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 9:17 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 20):
Boeing should seriously just walk away

From an order that might run to 160 widebody planes? Are you serious?  Wow!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
airbazar
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
..would you care to explain what these mean?

"Clark will be working with Boeing to define where the 787-10X and 747-8I sit on range/payload while his wish list contains a lighter 777-300ER"

Translation: 747-8I can't do DXB-LAX and 787-10 doesn't exist. Without a 787-10 we can't get as good a deal on A350-1000.

Quote:
"He did not rule out a buy of the smaller 787-9"

Translation: We want a better deal from Airbus

Quote:
""Sure, if we go the A350 route we will need some interim lift, and the A330 would fit that bill, but no decisions have been made,""

Translation: We need Boeing to do something so we can get a better deal from Airbus.

I think Mr. Clark understands as well as any one that in order to get the best possible deal there must be competing offers. Without a 787-10 the A350-1000 has no competition. And without delivery slots for the 787-9, he can't get a good deal on his interim solution, the A330. So he's going to Seattle to see if Boeing will do something that will make Airbus give him a better deal on existing plan to get A350/330's.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 9:31 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 22):
From an order that might run to 160 widebody planes? Are you serious?

If it was just a regular order, of course not! But EK seems to think they can just ask for whatever they want and the manufacturers will happily oblige. I'm sure Boeing continues to improve their products, like any good company would. I just don't think they will or should go out of their way just to please ONE airline.
 
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Stitch
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 9:40 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 24):
I'm sure Boeing continues to improve their products, like any good company would. I just don't think they will or should go out of their way just to please ONE airline.

Yet making their products better for one airline will probably make them better for all airlines.  Wink

It is possible EK is trying to use Boeing to knock Airbus down in price, but EK will need a good deal of Boeing planes (777-300ERs) in the interim to support their own growth until the A350XWB becomes available. They also need a hedge in case the A350XWB program does not track to schedule, so getting Boeing to make a better 777 and open up 787 production slots would be that hedge.

EK's growth plans are large enough to continue to purchase scores of Boeing and Airbus products. Airbus could choose the 787-9 and 787-10 to augment (and eventually replace) the A332, A343 772A and 772ER fleets. This would then leave the A350XWB-900R and A350XWB-1000 to augment and eventually replace the 773A, A345 and 773ER fleets.
 
jfk777
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 9:51 pm

Whatever EK's grand plans are the A380, 773ER, 787 or A350 will make up the fleet in 5 years. Expansion will take place in the USA and to a few more destination in South America, Buenos Aires. Tokyo is also missing from the route map, but most destination 8 hours from Dubai are already being flown too. Can't wait to see what Clark's visit brings.
 
baroque
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 17):
I'm assuming that it would be a 90K/115K thrust "range" like the current GE90 if they did it. I can't possibly imagine a MTOW weight growth above the current 777LR family as being needed. Weight reductions and efficiency gains could knock out huge gains in range and payload depending on how far they go.

Probably, but it might be that there is a temptation to widen the 777 as they lighten it to acquire another run of seats - seems to be all the go these days, mine is wider than yours!! For that, it might need to be up near 115k. Difficult to know how it will turn out.
 
Qantas744er
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 10:46 pm

Actually the 77W after a certain ln already had improvements of a couple of thousand Lbs and the first aircraft to recieve these improvements was a AF 777-300ER. This weight improvement also included vortex generators over the wings decreasing fuel burn by 1%.

All operators can retrofit to this weight improvement including the vortex generators for their 77W's that came before this improvement by Boeing. Of course this does cost some $$$  Wink

If EK really wants this option then im sure Boeing will make the 77W even lighter, this would really be some great work done by Boeing!

BTW the 777-300ER now burns 4% less than initially projected fuel thanks to these great improvements!

Leo
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
2wingtips
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 11):
Clearly EK does NOT want to hear Boeing offer them anything from their present catalogue, but expect the manufacturer to magically pull out some sort of 777NG as well as early delivery slots on both the 787-10 (which isn't even launched yet) and 787-9 all at once...

and Mr Clark is confident the 350-1000 will enter service in 8 years time(yep 2015) ? I imagine the 787-10 is as close to reality(or more likely closer) than any A350 derivative. There is a big 748I wild card to play at EK as well. I have every reason to believe EK want a 748I sized aircraft and it has no competition in it's seating category.
Of course, you are fully entitled to your opinion.
 
deltadc9
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 18):
but could this be a hint that the 748 will not be able to match the A380 efficiency or that the A380 is behaving better then promised?

Maybe neither, maybe it is simply performing as advertised, which does match the description of stellar.

Quoting N1786b (Reply 13):
Air et Cosmos ran a story saying Emirates is putting the pressure on Boeing to open a second line and to launch and accelerate the 787-10 development schedule

A second line is not the issue, Boeings 'line' is more a parts integration bay than a true production line. They can assemble more on the current 'line' that current, projected, or even best case scenario demand requires. The rate of production is constrained by the component manufacturers rate of production and logistics.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
DIA
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Operation of Jebel Ali Airport could impact order. All 6 runway to be operational by 2014, but any delay will force the airline goes bigger aircraft

How many landings and takeoffs per day does this airport expect? DIA has six operational runways ,and still has plenty of room to add on many frequencies...but DIA averages 1,670 flights (arrivals and departures) per day...I would think this is many more than Jebel is expecting...so why the concern over a/c size to # of runways? What am I missing here?
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 11:09 pm

What is the 777-400? I've not heard of this before. Is this actually being proposed by Boeing? What are its proposed specs?

Is there any rumors that the runways at Jebel Ali are falling behind schedule? I would think Boeing might chip in an extra construction crew to ensure that runway opens on time!  Big grin
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Not interested in 777-400ER, only even more better fuel burn for lighter 777-300ER

Have I been sleeping, but what is a 777-400ER? I didn't think you can make it any longer than it is - man the tail scrapes
 
slz396
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 11:22 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 23):

...

Thanks for translating the somewhat fluffy words of Mr Clark into easy to understand plain language.

I think you are hitting the nail on the head, BTW.

What Mr. Clark basically said in the interview is that Airbus seems to be offering him more suitable planes all accros the spectrum and he'd like Boeing to offer more suitable planes (much lighter 77W, bigger and longer range 787-10X, longer range 747-8i) too, so he can put them up against the planes Airbus offers in order to drive down the price.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 29):
There is a big 748I wild card to play at EK as well.

Big?

Not in Mr Clarks own words: 'I still see a niche for the jumbo at EK.'
(provided it's seriously modified to our longer range needs.)
 
kaitak744
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
► Operation of Jebel Ali Airport could impact order. All 6 runway to be operational by 2014, but any delay will force the airline goes bigger aircraft

WHAT??? They are actually building that? That is nothing but crazy.

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
► Not interested in 777-400ER, only even more better fuel burn for lighter 777-300ER

They basically said that they will not be interested in any potential larger version of the 777. Given that they have this huge 777-300ER fleet, it makes sense that they are the ones who are pushing Boeing for tweaks to make the airplane better than it already is.

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
► Enthusiasm for 787 still exist, but will see any progress on 787-10X performance

Many airlines were like this in the 777 program. They liked the 777-300, but they wanted to push for and see what happened with the 777-300ER. <- this ultimately led to the airline's benefit.

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
► 747-8I range issue remains on the DXB - LAX, which the airline still sees a niche

This is only good for Boeing. Boeing is getting a push to improve the 747-8I. If they can successfully do so, they would attract many more customers.


-
I find it very funny that Emirates wants nothing that Boeing is currently advertising.
 
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Stitch
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 34):
What Mr. Clark basically said in the interview is that Airbus seems to be offering him more suitable planes all accros the spectrum...

Airbus is indeed offering EK more suitable planes, the problem is the time-frame they are offering them for is upwards of a decade out, and EK is growing now. So it is to his benefit that Boeing improves the 777 and 787 both to support his growth over the next decade, as well as to put pressure on Airbus for pricing to support his growth over the decade after that.

I still don't see EK taking the 747-8I even if Boeing can make it work for him, unless he plans to convert them to 747-8BCFs down the road. Instead, I think he will pressure Airbus for the A388R.
 
deltadc9
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 32):
What is the 777-400? I've not heard of this before



Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 33):
Have I been sleeping, but what is a 777-400ER?

They have considered the possiblity since before the 773 came out and once the 747 was in question, but there is no program AKAIK. It would require major changes, and may not be worth it. Just like the 787-10 and 11, stretches are always looked at to maximise each product line.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
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scbriml
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 35):
WHAT??? They are actually building that? That is nothing but crazy.

Why wouldn't they build it? Why is it crazy? confused 

DXB really struggles to cope at peak times and with EK's massive fleet expansion, it won't last much longer. There is zero room for DXB to grow beyond its current boundaries. Once the current terminal expansion is completed, that will be it.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
Oykie
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Thu May 10, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Operation of Jebel Ali Airport could impact order. All 6 runway to be operational by 2014, but any delay will force the airline goes bigger aircraft

How would they now if that airport will be delayed prior to it's opening. They have to order planes some years before 2014, and then they still risk to operate "smaller" planes at their current airport. With Emirates current growth rate, will they face restrictions soon on their current airport?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
At this point, Boeing doesn't have an incentive to offer anything more than the exotic trim materials they pitched QF when they were evaluating non-stop SYD-LHR with the 772LR.

That exotic trim hardly contributed to increasing the operating performance on the 772LR. I think Boeing will wait to see the firmed up specification of the A350 before they decide what to do with the 777. Therefore I think Emirates would be wise to wait until they know what Airbus is offering.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 23):

Well put  Smile

Anyone know how many planes will be delivered between now and say 2015 in a year by year number?
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
justloveplanes
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Fri May 11, 2007 12:10 am

Quoting N1786b (Reply 13):
Air et Cosmos ran a story saying Emirates is putting the pressure on Boeing to open a second line and to launch and accelerate the 787-10 development schedule. As they know they can't push AB on the A350 schedule, they are putting pressure on B.

This is where protracted negotations can backfire. Clark could have had all the 787's he needed years earlier than he will get what he wants, but he wanted to keep playing off A vs. B endlessly and to the last moment. But he lost early delivery slots from Boeing. His current Boeing advances may all be a game to get a better priced from Airbus, but he may also have genuinely backed himself in a corner by not deciding early. I doubt anybody expected the early slots to go that fast, or for Boeing to be so cautious about opening a second line.

The most stunning part of the article is that he is unconvinced that the A350 will be a composite panel aircraft. He said there are many at Airbus that want and "all composite aircraft" which I take to mean barrels. I think the die is now cast and the A350 will be a composite barrel design. The A350 panel approach made little sense as Airbus would be late with a slightly inferior product. They would have nothing to offer the customer but slots that Boeing doesn't have. Now they would have a chance to produce a better plane, which they could not do the other way. Downside is more time, probably 2014 or 2015 at the earliest.

If this happens, then is looks like A should have gone with the simplified early A350 to get sales while the new bird is getting ready. The old A350 would have gotten a better share than the current A330, even a simple re-engining would have been worth it. Hindsight is 20/20 though.  twocents 
 
jacobin777
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Fri May 11, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 23):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
..would you care to explain what these mean?

"Clark will be working with Boeing to define where the 787-10X and 747-8I sit on range/payload while his wish list contains a lighter 777-300ER"

Translation: 747-8I can't do DXB-LAX and 787-10 doesn't exist. Without a 787-10 we can't get as good a deal on A350-1000.

I don't think EK is going to nor wants to play "IB" and just go to Boeing to drive down the price and pick Airbus in the end (or do the converse either)....not to mention, it's fairly obvious EK doesn't want to have a fleet from one manufacturer...

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 23):

Quote:
"He did not rule out a buy of the smaller 787-9"

Translation: We want a better deal from Airbus

...while I agree the trend for EK is for larger planes, one never really knows.....though the trend is for EK to choose the A350, there are a lot of factors still which need to be sorted about before EK decides which plane they really want...

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 20):
Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Airline focused on fuel efficiency even if it means slight capacity drop

This almost sounds like EK has dropped their "make the 747-8 bigger" push and might be considering it?

...given that LH has already ordered 20 B748 frames, I think Boeing will probably go with what they have now and might try to make some slight modifications for EK (recall, there are variations to the base model)...

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 20):

Anyway, I'm sick of EK putzing in to Airbus and Boeing and demanding that they get the exact airplane that is perfect for them. Everytime either manufacturer does something to improve the product, EK just wants a little more. I'm sure Boeing can offer a very attractive 777/787 package to EK, but if they want a little more efficiency or range, Boeing should seriously just walk away. This is getting freakin ridiculous...

..and why is that? When you go to purchase a car, you make a thousand decisions and you ask for "this and that, but not this and not that, and its got to be this, but it can't be that"........EK are spending tens of billions on planes, I think they have a right to demand the product which fits them...

[Edited 2007-05-10 17:46:50]
"Up the Irons!"
 
Lumberton
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Fri May 11, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 40):
This is where protracted negotations can backfire. Clark could have had all the 787's he needed years earlier than he will get what he wants, but he wanted to keep playing off A vs. B endlessly and to the last moment. But he lost early delivery slots from Boeing. His current Boeing advances may all be a game to get a better priced from Airbus, but he may also have genuinely backed himself in a corner by not deciding early. I doubt anybody expected the early slots to go that fast, or for Boeing to be so cautious about opening a second line.

The 787 isn't exactly begging for orders at this point. It is not inconceivable that Clark may be presented with a very gentle ultimatum that he may want to order the 787 now, or see the slots go away. Boeing would love to have EK's order for sure, but I'm not sure there's an infinite amount of such "love".
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
aa1818
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Fri May 11, 2007 12:24 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 36):
I still don't see EK taking the 747-8I even if Boeing can make it work for him, unless he plans to convert them to 747-8BCFs down the road. Instead, I think he will pressure Airbus for the A388R.

I see a huge possibility for the 748i in EK's fleet. After all they have purchased the freighter. Also, Boeing has kept the proposed specs of the proposed 787-10X variant close to its chest. Who knows what they will come up with- perhaps EK will go Boeing on this one. I reckon Boeing will announce the -10X at Paris this year- with one BIG order.

AA1818
“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Fri May 11, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 41):
..and why is that? When you go to a car, you make a thousand decisions and you ask for "this and that, but not this and not that, and its got to be this, but it can't be that"........EK are spending tens of billions on planes, I think they have a right to demand the product which fits them...

Sure...you might want different options available, but I don't ask Toyota to go back and redesign the car because I want it to be 1 mi/gal more efficient. My point isn't that EK shouldn't ask for what works best for them. However, they have been asking, and Airbus practically redesigned the A350 to meet much of EK's needs (granted, it was not just EK who prompted them to do that), and I have no doubt that Boeing is working on the 787-10. My point is that it seems that no matter what Boeing or Airbus does, EK still wants just a little more. At some point they just need to accept that it's not going to get a whole lot better in the next 3 years, so take it or leave it.
 
justloveplanes
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Fri May 11, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 42):
The 787 isn't exactly begging for orders at this point. It is not inconceivable that Clark may be presented with a very gentle ultimatum that he may want to order the 787 now, or see the slots go away. Boeing would love to have EK's order for sure, but I'm not sure there's an infinite amount of such "love".

This is a more direct expression of my previous point. Mr. Clark can expect very little help from Boeing in driving down A's price. They can sell everything they can build, so what's the point in giving EK anything other than a normal (still accounting for the large volume) discount? EK is burning time playing A vs. B. They should just order the plane they really want, and if it's a 787, they need to get on with it, each week could mean another multimonth delay the way these things are going out the door.
 
EI321
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Fri May 11, 2007 12:42 am

Sorry if its been mentioned already, but what exactly will Boeing be doing on the 777 to lighten it enough to compete with the A350? Airbus proposed the A330lite (inc all new engines) but airlines still favoured the 787. Can Boeing make the 777 good enough so that the same wont happen to the 777lite? In my opinion they would be better off doing larger & better versions of the 787 asap.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Fri May 11, 2007 12:48 am

As far as I remember, the 8 across limitation was one of the things that killed the original 350. It wasn't just the old tech composition. The 777 may be a better candidate for improvement with its 10 across potential. Ultimately, the construction techniques are less important than the price and performance.
What the...?
 
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Stitch
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Fri May 11, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 43):
I see a huge possibility for the 748i in EK's fleet.

In what way? (Genuine interest, not trying to be snide).

Quoting EI321 (Reply 46):
Sorry if its been mentioned already, but what exactly will Boeing be doing on the 777 to lighten it enough to compete with the A350?

I imagine trying new lighter internal structures and fittings, but they're going to be limited in what they can easily and quickly do.
 
Morvious
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RE: EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order

Fri May 11, 2007 12:56 am

Why can't EK just buy planes that are availible or will be in a few years time. They always want something different.

They really think they are THAT important.. Uhu
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden

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