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Francoflier
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An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 1:33 am



Flight Global article

There's been a lot of talk about the supposed copying of western technology by eastern countries lately...

I don't suppose GE has been working with ZKMB Progress on the 'exhaust chevron' technology, nor that they sold them the technology. I don't even know if that technology is patented.
Really, I don't know what to make of this pic...

Any thoughts?
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
A342
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 5:04 am

Doesn't the An-124 regularly carry GE90 engines from the plant to Boeing? Maybe some folks complained about the An-124s noise, so GE gave them the technology for free...

But IIRC it was Volga-Dnepr who was contracted to carry the GE90s...

It seems my fantasy is at a catastrophic level today... Wink
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Lumberton
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 6:39 am

Curious. Isn't Russia a member, or soon to be, of the WTO? And don't the WTO members adhere to the laws on the protection of patents & intellectual property? Of course, that's assuming that this is GE proprietary technology. If so, we'll know soon enough when some sort of lawsuit hits!
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
747400sp
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 6:47 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
Maybe some folks complained about the An-124s noise, so GE gave them the technology for free...

What! The An-124 is pretty quit, a 747 classic is louder.
 
Dougloid
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting Francoflier (Thread starter):
I don't suppose GE has been working with ZKMB Progress on the 'exhaust chevron' technology, nor that they sold them the technology. I don't even know if that technology is patented.
Really, I don't know what to make of this pic...

A guy I know was a tech rep for GE back in the day, and at that time Ariana had a single DC10 and a single spare CF6 at their base in Kabul. When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan the first thing they did was crate that sucker up and send it home for some 'research'.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Queso
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 8:08 am

Nice Photoshop job on that pic.  Big grin

There's nothing in the law which would prevent them from making that modification to their own equipment, as long as they don't sell the technology to others because it could be looked upon as a patent infringement.
 
kalvado
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 9:38 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
Of course, that's assuming that this is GE proprietary technology.

As far as I understand, technology behind GEnx serrated trailing edge is described in US patent 6612106 filed by Boeing in 2001.
Even in that patent itself, there are quite a few references describing similar prior art (going back to 60s), and patent claims only some details (curvature of the trailing edge) as novel.
 
egnr
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 10:52 am

Rolls Royce experimented with Chevrons in 2001, on a Boeing 777-200ER.



Boeing press release

General Electric also tested chevrons on another 777 (a 77W of ANA) in 2005.



Boeing press release
7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
 
GEnxPower
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 1:14 pm

You cannot patent an idea. Anyone around the world is free to take the idea of "chevrons" and experiment with it. Unless, if they took all the dimensions and replicate them exactly, then that would be an infringement.

The trick of making this technology work efficiently is in the dimensions, chevron angles, curvatures and size w.r.t your engine thrust level and air flow. Matching flow and size is important, the rest is engineering trade offs. GE and Rolls have both done their own tests on this technology, and has learned great lessons. Those information are proprietary and companies won't share such results, and patent laws will protect us from copiers.
 
Acheron
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 1:15 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
Curious. Isn't Russia a member, or soon to be, of the WTO? And don't the WTO members adhere to the laws on the protection of patents & intellectual property? Of course, that's assuming that this is GE proprietary technology. If so, we'll know soon enough when some sort of lawsuit hits!

Nope, the US has vetoed(or sabotaged) their entrance several times mostly for stupid reasons(mainly as retaliation method for their stance on Iran, Iraq, etc) the russian industry and the last time I think the Russians said "we don't need no stinkin' WTO".
 
OTOPS
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 1:30 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
Curious. Isn't Russia a member, or soon to be, of the WTO? And don't the WTO members adhere to the laws on the protection of patents & intellectual property? Of course, that's assuming that this is GE proprietary technology. If so, we'll know soon enough when some sort of lawsuit hits!

Antonov is in the Ukraine
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Francoflier
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 5:54 pm

Quoting OTOPS (Reply 10):
Antonov is in the Ukraine

That's right. So is Progress, the engine manufacturer.

Quoting GEnxPower (Reply 8):
You cannot patent an idea.

That's also right. I wonder whether they obtained appreciable results with that design on the D-18s. Are those engine that noisy in the first place? Do they comply with the current European and US noise regs?
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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glideslope
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting GEnxPower (Reply 8):
The trick of making this technology work efficiently is in the dimensions, chevron angles, curvatures and size w.r.t your engine thrust level and air flow. Matching flow and size is important, the rest is engineering trade offs. GE and Rolls have both done their own tests on this technology, and has learned great lessons. Those information are proprietary and companies won't share such results, and patent laws will protect us from copiers.

The laws only protect in countries willing to recognise them.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
Alessandro
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 8:22 pm

Patents don´t run until the end of time either, so question is how long the patented it for?
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PM
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 8:39 pm

Quoting EGNR (Reply 7):
Rolls Royce experimented with Chevrons in 2001, on a Boeing 777-200ER.

As I remember it, Boeing were driving this test more than RR.

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 6):
As far as I understand, technology behind GEnx serrated trailing edge is described in US patent 6612106 filed by Boeing in 2001.

Indeed. The chevrons are a Boeing idea. Won/t they be applied to both the GEnx and Trent 1000 on the 787?
 
baroque
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 8:55 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 9):
and the last time I think the Russians said "we don't need no stinkin' WTO".

Thanks for giving me my laugh for the evening! Surely serrated tail pipes have been around for a long time. Some of the hush kits have interruptions round the rim of the tailpipes and these date back to ?the 70s.

Specific systems might have been subject to patent apps but it seems unlikely that the whole concept can be subject to new patents. Mixing of gases into smaller sub-streams has been an accepted way to reduce jet noise for a long time.
 
Lumberton
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 9:00 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 9):
Nope, the US has vetoed(or sabotaged) their entrance several times mostly for stupid reasons(mainly as retaliation method for their stance on Iran, Iraq, etc) the russian industry and the last time I think the Russians said "we don't need no stinkin' WTO".

Seems we have company.
EU Casts Cloud Over Russian WTO Entry

Quote:
MOSCOW — The European Union is threatening to block Russia’s bid to join the World Trade Organization unless progress is made on resolving acrimonious disputes between Russia and some of its neighbors before a key summit near Samara next week.
While the EU still supports Russia’s accession to the WTO, it will not do so “at any price,” Peter Power, a spokesman for EU Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson, said Friday.

Of course, the reports are denied later in the article, but where there's smoke....

Back on topic, I'm getting two messages from the previous posts, it's patented, but if one were to duplicate the chevrons, it's not a patent infringement unless it's done exactly?

Quoting GEnxPower (Reply 8):
You cannot patent an idea. Anyone around the world is free to take the idea of "chevrons" and experiment with it. Unless, if they took all the dimensions and replicate them exactly, then that would be an infringement.

But isn't that the idea behind patents and copyrights--to protect ideas?

[Edited 2007-05-13 14:14:19]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
GEnxPower
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 9:31 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 16):
But isn't that the idea behind patents and copyrights--to protect ideas?

This is true, but to patent something, it has to be more detailed and solution specific. I'm an engineer and not a lawyer and not all that familiar with the legalities.

However, the way I understand this is that you cannot patent this, for example, as "Acoustic reduction with chevron treatment on exhaust nozzle exit". There has to be more detailed specification on how the "problem" was solved using the idea.

RR cannot patent concepts like "3 spool gas turbine engines" and GE cannot patent "Variable Stator Vanes in the HPC". Those concepts are not protected. What is protected is the specific approach to applying those concepts in the product.

If general ideas can be patented, why wouldn't Apple (or whoever) patent "portable mp3 device". Or someone just patent "Touch screen Displays". There are various touch screen technology out there now, each with small differences and slightly varied approaches that are patented. The rest, I guess, is up to the lawyers to duke it out on what is infringement and what is "new".

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 12):

The laws only protect in countries willing to recognise them.

 checkmark 
 
silentbob
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 10:09 pm

Quoting GEnxPower (Reply 17):
If general ideas can be patented, why wouldn't Apple (or whoever) patent "portable mp3 device". Or someone just patent "Touch screen Displays". There are various touch screen technology out there now, each with small differences and slightly varied approaches that are patented. The rest, I guess, is up to the lawyers to duke it out on what is infringement and what is "new".

If there were no prior works of similar technology, a vague patent would often hold up and block progress. There is a lot of that evident in the patents acquired in the information technology sector, especially in recent years.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 11:05 pm

I don't think either GE or Rolls-Royce will patent the idea of the engine chevrons because after all, the benefits of better mixing of hot and cold exhaust gases to reduce engine noise benefits everyone.

By the way, intermixing hot and cold air in the exhaust stream to reduce noise is not a new idea. Note this older Boeing 707:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Art Brett - Photovation Images



That unusual exhaust nozzle intermixes the hot exhaust from the engine and the cold air flowing around the engine nacelle to reduce engine noise whenever the plane is flying.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Sun May 13, 2007 11:56 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
Doesn't the An-124 regularly carry GE90 engines from the plant to Boeing?

The An-124 is used when an airline must ferry an engine replacement to a Ge-powered 777 that is stranded away from a maintenance facility. Other aircraft, like the 747F, can be used if the engine core and fan are disassembled for transport.

For standard engine delivery from the Ge plant to Boeing's final assembly line at PAE, an An-124 is not used.
 
A342
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Mon May 14, 2007 5:51 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 3):
What! The An-124 is pretty quit, a 747 classic is louder.

Ok, good to know that.

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 11):
Are those engine that noisy in the first place? Do they comply with the current European and US noise regs?

Yes. The engines used on civilian aircraft were fitted with STAGEIII hushkits, so they comply with the regulations.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 20):

The An-124 is used when an airline must ferry an engine replacement to a Ge-powered 777 that is stranded away from a maintenance facility. Other aircraft, like the 747F, can be used if the engine core and fan are disassembled for transport.

For standard engine delivery from the Ge plant to Boeing's final assembly line at PAE, an An-124 is not used.

Ok, thanks.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Tue May 15, 2007 2:32 am

The An-124 is also quieter than the Lockheed C-5A & C-5B, though not sure about the re-engined C-5C(M).
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sovietjet
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Tue May 15, 2007 8:50 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 19):
By the way, intermixing hot and cold air in the exhaust stream to reduce noise is not a new idea. Note this older Boeing 707:

Those are turbojets, there is no cold stream....The "things" you see at the end is actually just a bunch of pipes, instead of one huge exhaust nozzle. Here's a picture of the silencer pipes:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank Schaefer



and a picture without them


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Martin Pole



I doubt they were very effective, as I've heard plenty about the ridiculous amount of noise those 707 turbojets made.
 
Dougloid
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RE: An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons

Tue May 15, 2007 10:21 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 23):
I doubt they were very effective, as I've heard plenty about the ridiculous amount of noise those 707 turbojets made.

Lemme tell you, son....my ears are STILL bleeding..
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn