bucknut
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:38 pm

CAL LHR Slots?

Sun May 13, 2007 8:42 am

With all the talk about Delta getting slots at LHR, We haven't heard any plans on CAL. I believe the start up date for CAL is march of 08. Any news?
 
nwa757boy
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:10 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Sun May 13, 2007 9:00 am

It might be harder for CAL to get some slots at LHR I would think, since their skyteam partners, AF and KL are closer to DL and NW respectivley. And since it's rumored that DL will be getting most of if not all of their slots from AF and KL ( I havent really heard what NW plans on doing with LHR) it might be difficult for AF and KL to dish out some more slots to CAL, afterall AF and KL still, I would think, want some sort of presence in LHR, they don't want to give away all of their slots. Maybe AZ will be willing to give up a few lots?
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Sun May 13, 2007 9:04 am

Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 1):
It might be harder for CAL to get some slots at LHR I would think, since their skyteam partners, AF and KL are closer to DL and NW respectivley. And since it's rumored that DL will be getting most of if not all of their slots from AF and KL ( I havent really heard what NW plans on doing with LHR) it might be difficult for AF and KL to dish out some more slots to CAL

I wondered that myself. If AF/KL gave their slots to DL, where will CO get their slots? Or will they get slots at all? They need at least two to have a roundtrip from IAH. They will probably want more. They might be able to buy some slots off of AZ or another European carrier.
It is what it is...
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Sun May 13, 2007 9:13 am

Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 1):
It might be harder for CAL to get some slots at LHR I would think, since their skyteam partners, AF and KL are closer to DL and NW respectivley. And since it's rumored that DL will be getting most of if not all of their slots from AF and KL ( I havent really heard what NW plans on doing with LHR) it might be difficult for AF and KL to dish out some more slots to CAL, afterall AF and KL still, I would think, want some sort of presence in LHR, they don't want to give away all of their slots. Maybe AZ will be willing to give up a few lots?

I don't think its a matter of "dishing out slots"...like what LH and UA have for many transatlantic flights, AF/KL might do "revenue sharing" with DL in "exchange" for slots....possibly even with CO.....it might be better use for AF/KL to do that over bringing in smaller planes to preserve those rights...
"Up the Irons!"
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Sun May 13, 2007 9:32 am

who knows what is going on behind closed doors but DL is winning contest after contest in all aspects of its business when it comes to getting a leg up on the competition If it's between DL and CO for slots from the AF group, methinks DL is doing everything it can to make sure it gets the slots and a competitive advantage. Notice that CO has not even said it is trying for EWR slots right away.
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Sun May 13, 2007 9:37 am

Both DL and CO would have to be seriously cheaper than VS/BA/AA transAtalantic for me to consider flying them - especially in Y.

CO's C class is good but for the same money EWR/JFK-LHR you could have new Club World or VS Upper Class.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Sun May 13, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
Notice that CO has not even said it is trying for EWR slots right away.

They have said they want slots for IAH first. Then they will go for EWR.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
who knows what is going on behind closed doors but DL is winning contest after contest in all aspects of its business when it comes to getting a leg up on the competition If it's between DL and CO for slots from the AF group, methinks DL is doing everything it can to make sure it gets the slots and a competitive advantage.

Its still early in the game, CO still has several avenues to try before we say CO wont be getting any LHR slots. My guess is that they will be able to come up with at least two by the time open skies takes effect.
It is what it is...
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Sun May 13, 2007 9:41 am

oh I'm hardly writing CO off... I just think DL will throw its weight around in such a way to gain an advantage if that is at all possible.
 
style
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:40 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Sun May 13, 2007 12:06 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 7):
I just think DL will throw its weight around

This isn't the 'Delta' of the good ole days, I don't see how DL has more weight to throw around compared to CO or NW.

Until March 08 and we actually see who's flying what from where with how many slots I wouldn't say anybody has a leg up on the competition, especially Delta.
 
codc10
Posts: 1760
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Sun May 13, 2007 12:35 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 7):
I just think DL will throw its weight around in such a way to gain an advantage if that is at all possible.

No shit.

There is no doubt in my mind that CO will find and purchase enough slots to do exactly what they want to at LHR. Hell, they may have even secured them already, but have not made a fuss over it.

Continental will launch service to IAH first since this route has a greater profit potential than EWR/CLE or elsewhere. The NYC-LON market will be flooded with seats (LHR especially) immediately following adoption of Open Skies, so CO is probably playing it close to the vest as 1) the market may require some time to stabilize, and 2) CO will need at least 3, perhaps more daily slots to LHR to be competitive with an EWR route. Since IAH is first priority, it may take more time for CO to acquire additional slots for a sufficient EWR operation.

Once the 787s come online, and rest assured, they will be at LHR, you can chalk that up as a real leg up on the competition!
 
asuflyer05
Posts: 2054
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:53 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Sun May 13, 2007 4:06 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
Notice that CO has not even said it is trying for EWR slots right away.

As stated above, why waste the slot on a route with a ton of competition.

What I don't understand is why everyone thinks CO is dependent on SkyTeam airlines for slots. What prevents them from getting a slot from VS and revenue sharing on the route?
 
fun2fly
Posts: 896
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Sun May 13, 2007 10:28 pm

While a considerable amount of bashing is going on for CO's "lack of action", has anyone even heard a word from NWA on this subject. Realize they only have 2 daily LGW's. Will they just stay at LGW?
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Sun May 13, 2007 10:56 pm

I disagree that NYC-LHR will see a large increase in the number of flights upon OpenSkies starting.NW and US are both (very) unlikely to start flights. DL has (or is close to starting) 2 dailies from LGW and it's unlikely they will have more than 3 from LHR for a while as soon as they switch their operations to LHR. VS or BA might add a flight each but given the size of the market this is rather insignificant.
The main reason why CO will start IAH-LHR before EWR-LHR is due to the large amount of oil-traffic that will be connecting on to Africa, the Middle East etc. A higher percentage of CO's EWR-LHR traffic will be O&D, partly due to CO's impressive European network and the increasing availability of NYC-India nonstops on both CO and other airlines, reducing the need for such traffic to connect. I think the hub-to-point mode of operations will increase in time but that's another subject.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting Donder10 (Reply 12):
The main reason why CO will start IAH-LHR before EWR-LHR is due to the large amount of oil-traffic that will be connecting on to Africa, the Middle East etc. A higher percentage of CO's EWR-LHR traffic will be O&D, partly due to CO's impressive European network and the increasing availability of NYC-India nonstops on both CO and other airlines, reducing the need for such traffic to connect. I think the hub-to-point mode of operations will increase in time but that's another subject.

...while I don't disagree with your premise above, I'm curious as to how things will work (in terms of competition, which pax will choose to fly CO or EK to fly to other destinations, etc.) out once EK start DXB-IAH nonstop flights......

..that being said, I think IAH-LHR will do just fine... yes 
"Up the Irons!"
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
...while I don't disagree with your premise above, I'm curious as to how things will work (in terms of competition, which pax will choose to fly CO or EK to fly to other destinations, etc.) out once EK start DXB-IAH nonstop flights......

The question in my mind is will CO put its numbers on EK's IAH-DXB?

Quoting Donder10 (Reply 12):
The main reason why CO will start IAH-LHR before EWR-LHR is due to the large amount of oil-traffic that will be connecting on to Africa, the Middle East etc.

Thats one reason.  checkmark 

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 9):
Continental will launch service to IAH first since this route has a greater profit potential than EWR/CLE or elsewhere.

Thats the other reason. NYC-LHR has soooo many flights as it is. IAH has no nonstop flight to LHR. There is definately a market for IAH-LHR, so this is a big reason why IAH-LHR is (and should be) CO's priority to LHR. Why would CO use precious slots on a market that has tons of competition at first?  checkmark 

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
..that being said, I think IAH-LHR will do just fine...

Yes it will!!!
It is what it is...
 
Rivet42
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 2:20 am

All this talk of slots changing hands like money in a bank seems to overlook one key point, which is that slots are time-specific - i.e. AF slots for a CDG-LHR-CDG flight may be of absolutley no use, time-wise, for an NYC-LHR-NYC or IAH-LHR-IAH flight. It's going to be a lot more complicated, and carriers such as AF, KL, LH and even SK are certain to protect the slots that feed their own network connections, before offering up any 'spare' slots for trade. Whch means the available slots will likely be much less attractive than everyone seems to think.

Quoting Style (Reply 8):
Until March 08 and we actually see who's flying what from where with how many slots I wouldn't say anybody has a leg up on the competition, especially Delta.

Exactly.
I travel, therefore I am.
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 2:24 am

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 9):
Once the 787s come online, and rest assured, they will be at LHR, you can chalk that up as a real leg up on the competition!

Really? Seems like that wouldn't be the best use of the 787's capabilities. I'd think that CO is using those to open up new long haul flights to unserved cities from IAH and EWR. Seeing that LGW has 2 daily 772's from IAH, it seems like the 777 would be the best aircraft for the LHR flights.

Quoting Donder10 (Reply 12):
The main reason why CO will start IAH-LHR before EWR-LHR is due to the large amount of oil-traffic that will be connecting on to Africa, the Middle East etc.

I don't know about that. I'd think that most of CO passengers going onto Africa and the Middle East would go through the 2 Skyteam hubs at AMS and CDG. Who would CO passengers connect to at LHR? Certainly not BA, and I think that they only code share on VS on East Coast-LHR flights.
 
codc10
Posts: 1760
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):

Thats the other reason. NYC-LHR has soooo many flights as it is. IAH has no nonstop flight to LHR. There is definately a market for IAH-LHR, so this is a big reason why IAH-LHR is (and should be) CO's priority to LHR.

I would say that the oil traffic is the ONLY reason IAH is more attractive than EWR for LHR service, and that leads to the greater profit potential. Major oil companies in the Houston area have long-standing contracts with Continental, and the ability to tap into the availability of LHR's Africa and Middle East network makes that relationship much more attractive. This would equate to some serious premium-cabin demand.

As far as aircraft availability for the route, I could see CO quite readily switching the 2 existing 777 flights from IAH-LGW to IAH-LHR, and to maintain presence in the LGW market (as they have stated, their intention is to do so), they could temporarily can the 2nd IAH-AMS frequency (CO58/59), use that aircraft for a 4x weekly IAH-LGW service, and wait until the delivery of 787s or further swaps to restore frequencies to those markets. AMS will probably see a reduction in demand with LHR service, so that move could be justified, even though AMS is so much more pleasant to connect through.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 2:57 am

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 15):
All this talk of slots changing hands like money in a bank seems to overlook one key point, which is that slots are time-specific - i.e. AF slots for a CDG-LHR-CDG flight may be of absolutley no use, time-wise, for an NYC-LHR-NYC or IAH-LHR-IAH flight. It's going to be a lot more complicated, and carriers such as AF, KL, LH and even SK are certain to protect the slots that feed their own network connections, before offering up any 'spare' slots for trade. Whch means the available slots will likely be much less attractive than everyone seems to think.

...if one is to look at the arrivals to LHR from the various cities in the United States such as JFK, ORD, LAX, SFO, BOS, MIA, etc...one would see

1)both AF and KL have slots which would fulfill the "morning bank" of flights which arrive from the USA to LHR a
2)....same as above for the "evening banks"

....I think two things will happen

1)revenue sharing like UA/LH does
2)CO/DL buying some slots in the "open" market....

...a combination of these two will be more than enough to satisfy the needs for both DL and CO for now.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2133
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 10):
What I don't understand is why everyone thinks CO is dependent on SkyTeam airlines for slots. What prevents them from getting a slot from VS and revenue sharing on the route?

Are you kidding, hell will freeze over before VS gives away slots. They need them badly, why do you think SRB wants to buy BD?!
 
Rivet42
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
1)both AF and KL have slots which would fulfill the "morning bank" of flights which arrive from the USA to LHR a
2)....same as above for the "evening banks"

But you assume AF and KL don't have good use for those slots. Traditionally those early morning inbounds to LHR from Europe (which is an hour ahead of UK) are likely to be very high yield, so why would they sell them? This has been a reason for BA having aircraft overnighting in Europe, in order to tap in to that premuim early morning market. Any of the key European players would be mad to give up those slots.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
2)CO/DL buying some slots in the "open" market....

You can't buy what's not for sale. There's already enough demand for slots by existing residents which is not being met by 'the open market', how's that going to improve as a result of Open Skies?
I travel, therefore I am.
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 4:20 am

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 17):
I would say that the oil traffic is the ONLY reason IAH is more attractive than EWR for LHR service, and that leads to the greater profit potential. Major oil companies in the Houston area have long-standing contracts with Continental, and the ability to tap into the availability of LHR's Africa and Middle East network makes that relationship much more attractive.

Yes, but what airline is CO going to connect these passengers to? LHR isn't exactly a big Skyteam hub. If CO passengers want to get from IAH to Afrida/ME, they'll go through CDG or AMS on AF/KL. CO sure as heck isn't going to connect any pax to BAs flights, and IIRC their partnership with VS is only a code share on flights from the US to LHR.

Also, CO is moving the IAH service first because BA announced that they would move all IAH service to LHR from LGW as soon as open skies goes into effect. Thus, CO needs to serve LHR to be competitive on the route.
 
albird87
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:15 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):
Thats the other reason. NYC-LHR has soooo many flights as it is. IAH has no nonstop flight to LHR. There is definately a market for IAH-LHR, so this is a big reason why IAH-LHR is (and should be) CO's priority to LHR. Why would CO use precious slots on a market that has tons of competition at first?

You must remember that BA will also move IAH to LHR when open skies comes into action and also it being upgraded to a 744 with the 70 J seats to grab passengers as well. CO will have to fly a 772 into LHR to match BA on the services. BA will be I think the most benefitial from the ending of Bermuda II and i expect that since BA sold GB to BMI then those slots that they kept from the deal will be used to open up the LGW-US flights to LHR. Also i expect to see that all the 767 routes across the atlantic not to the US (which unfortunately i only see NAS-GCM being one of those flights.... any more?) being moved across to LGW and possibly upgraded again to 777 so BA can use those slots to there advantage on the US routes. wouldnt be suprised to see maybe the second BA flight from LHR-MIA also moved to LGW for the leisure passengers also to get slots (also changed to a 772 then).

Out of mind what routes are served from LGW to US by BA??
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 22):
BA will also move IAH to LHR when open skies comes into action and also it being upgraded to a 744 with the 70 J seats to grab passengers as well

Great news, another pax 744 to IAH? Will they stick with two daily frequencies or just have a daily 744 flight? Currently the IAH route has 2 daily 777's.

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 22):
Out of mind what routes are served from LGW to US by BA??

IAH, DFW, MCO, ATL, PHX are the ones that I can think of.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4464
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting FUN2FLY (Reply 11):
While a considerable amount of bashing is going on for CO's "lack of action", has anyone even heard a word from NWA on this subject. Realize they only have 2 daily LGW's. Will they just stay at LGW?

NWA has every intention of flying to LHR and has stated this. They will formally announce it when it fact and not vapor.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 24):
NWA has every intention of flying to LHR and has stated this. They will formally announce it when it fact and not vapor.

My guess is that every airline that wants to fly to LHR will get to. They might not get a whole lot of slots, but I bet both CO and NW will be able to come up with a couple.
It is what it is...
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 25):
My guess is that every airline that wants to fly to LHR will get to. They might not get a whole lot of slots, but I bet both CO and NW will be able to come up with a couple.

The open skies agreement is going to put a tremendous increase in demand for LHR slots, thus making them more expensive on the open market. It's pure economics: less profitable LHR routes will be reallocated and the slots sold if an airline cannot make good use out of them.
 
102IAHexpress
Posts: 898
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:33 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 1):
they don't want to give away all of their slots



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 2):
If AF/KL gave their slots to DL



Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 19):
hell will freeze over before VS gives away slots

Remember that no one is giving away any slots to anybody. If AF or KL want to sell some of their slots to their Skyteam partners in the US and if VS want to sell some of their slots to its codeshare partner then I see no reason why they shouldn’t except anything less than top dollar for them.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 9):
Once the 787s come online, and rest assured, they will be at LHR

That would be a waste of a LHR slot. CO 787s will make their way to London, but will stay in LGW. LHR will be 777 territory.

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 20):
You can't buy what's not for sale. There's already enough demand for slots by existing residents which is not being met by 'the open market', how's that going to improve as a result of Open Skies?

Everything has a price. Hence BA Buys 51 LHR Slots From BMI! (by PanAm330 Mar 30 2007 in Civil Aviation)
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 27):
That would be a waste of a LHR slot. CO 787s will make their way to London, but will stay in LGW. LHR will be 777 territory.

I don't think we'll see any 787's to London. Those will mostly likely be used to open new destinations in Europe and Asia, and potentially Australia. When IAH-LHR starts, I'd imagine that the route will be operated by the 777, with LGW frequencies being downgraded to a 762 or 764.

EWR-LGW will probably go all 757 when EWR-LHR begins.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 20):

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
2)CO/DL buying some slots in the "open" market....

You can't buy what's not for sale. There's already enough demand for slots by existing residents which is not being met by 'the open market', how's that going to improve as a result of Open Skies?

....slots are always available...if one is willing to spend the money for them....I think DL and CO could certainly justify the expense of purchasing a slot pair or two......

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 20):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
1)both AF and KL have slots which would fulfill the "morning bank" of flights which arrive from the USA to LHR a
2)....same as above for the "evening banks"

But you assume AF and KL don't have good use for those slots. Traditionally those early morning inbounds to LHR from Europe (which is an hour ahead of UK) are likely to be very high yield, so why would they sell them? This has been a reason for BA having aircraft overnighting in Europe, in order to tap in to that premuim early morning market. Any of the key European players would be mad to give up those slots.

....possibly high yield/possibly not...and if DL/CO go with a possible revenue share with AF/KL, the costs might be well worth it.....maybe it won't be the early a.m. slots, but the 12:15 or 13:10 slots...as I stated above, it might even be an evening slots...when yields are lower.....

I'm almost certain that once Open Skies happens, both DL and CO will be flying into LHR very soon..

edit:AF1470 which arrives at 11:10 is flown only with a smaller A318.....maybe it isn't the most high-yielding flight such as AF1170 or AF1370

[Edited 2007-05-13 23:02:39]
"Up the Irons!"
 
COewrAAtysAZ
Posts: 149
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:15 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
who knows what is going on behind closed doors but DL is winning contest after contest in all aspects of its business when it comes to getting a leg up on the competition If it's between DL and CO for slots from the AF group, methinks DL is doing everything it can to make sure it gets the slots and a competitive advantage. Notice that CO has not even said it is trying for EWR slots right away.

Bankruptcy is a wonderful thing when you can go from the bottom to the top all because you basically cheat. What is the advantage to AA and CO staying out of bankruptcy? I used to think it was a good thing. I'm starting to think they may have made a mistake when the rest of their competitors went in, restructured and have lower costs, and now can do all of these "wonderful" things.
Continental Airlines: Trabajar con empe�?��?�±o, Volar con Pasi�?��?�³n
 
nwa757boy
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:10 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 6:44 am

Quoting Cba (Reply 26):
less profitable LHR routes will be reallocated and the slots sold if an airline cannot make good use out of them.

Not to completely hijack the thread, but I have a feeling that DTW will loose LHR service from BA, from what I hear the flight does poorly. It now continues onto IAH. I'm sure BA could use that slot somewhere else that could make a lot more money, like maybe on a LHR-DFW?

Quoting Coewraatysaz (Reply 30):
Bankruptcy is a wonderful thing when you can go from the bottom to the top all because you basically cheat. What is the advantage to AA and CO staying out of bankruptcy?

CO had its fair share of BK protection, twice. They are still feeling the benefits of it.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Nwa757boy (Reply 31):
Not to completely hijack the thread, but I have a feeling that DTW will loose LHR service from BA, from what I hear the flight does poorly. It now continues onto IAH. I'm sure BA could use that slot somewhere else that could make a lot more money, like maybe on a LHR-DFW?

All BA has really said is that once open skies take effect, they would like to move IAH, DFW, and ATL service to LHR. Where they will get the slots or if they will cut service to other cities is yet to be seen.

Quoting Coewraatysaz (Reply 30):
Bankruptcy is a wonderful thing when you can go from the bottom to the top all because you basically cheat. What is the advantage to AA and CO staying out of bankruptcy? I used to think it was a good thing. I'm starting to think they may have made a mistake when the rest of their competitors went in, restructured and have lower costs, and now can do all of these "wonderful" things.

Well CO has been in BK before. Granted I dont think CO will have to see BK again in the near future. But also remember that BK makes the airlines more succeptable to things like Takeovers. US almost bought out DL from under them. Quite frankly, I dont think DL is "winning" anything just yet. They did win a round with US by not being bought out by them, but other than that they havent "won" anything.

There is something else to consider. If we compare DL to CO (since its already been brought up in this threat) we would need to consider the markets served. ATL vs. IAH for one. ATL will have more connections to go from but IAH is a larger city with more international O&D. We dont know which flight would preform better to LHR. Its one thing to get the slots, but a whole other thing to make the flight succeed.

[Edited 2007-05-14 00:06:03]
It is what it is...
 
fun2fly
Posts: 896
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 7:02 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 25):
My guess is that every airline that wants to fly to LHR will get to. They might not get a whole lot of slots, but I bet both CO and NW will be able to come up with a couple

I think NWA has the best shot - new 787's coming online in 2008 along w/open skies. Could be a deal changer for them if they get the slots. Others w/o aircraft will be at a disadvantage.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting FUN2FLY (Reply 33):
I think NWA has the best shot - new 787's coming online in 2008 along w/open skies. Could be a deal changer for them if they get the slots. Others w/o aircraft will be at a disadvantage.

CO is also getting the 787. I dont think either is at an advantage at this point.
It is what it is...
 
asuflyer05
Posts: 2054
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:53 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 19):
Are you kidding, hell will freeze over before VS gives away slots. They need them badly, why do you think SRB wants to buy BD?!

Chill out. I was using VS as an example. My point was they can get the slots from anyone, it doesn't have to be from a Skyteam partner. They'll get the slots when they are willing to pay what an airline wants for them.

Quoting Cba (Reply 23):
PHX

BA's PHX flight goes to LHR.
 
COewrAAtysAZ
Posts: 149
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:15 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 8:25 am

Quoting Nwa757boy (Reply 31):
CO had its fair share of BK protection, twice. They are still feeling the benefits of it.

I made that statement knowing the facts. I was really looking at a time period post-9/11. Regardless of whether it is the airline industry or any other industry, the bankruptcy process is like trying to restart a person who has a DNR.
Continental Airlines: Trabajar con empe�?��?�±o, Volar con Pasi�?��?�³n
 
jfk777
Posts: 5841
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 9:02 am

With ten and a half months to go until CAL can land at LHR some slot(s) will become available. AF and KLM might provide a few but Delta and NW also want some too. Three of the four US airlines coming to LHR are SKYTEAM so KLM and AF have some spliting to do. USairways is the only Star Alliance member moving so it has many more airline to beg for slots since so many Star Airlines fly to LHR. SIA, Lufthansa, ANZ, Air Canada, SAS, Austria, SAA, Thai, Air China, ANA and SWISS just to name a few. Good hunting to the new LHR members.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 896
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 34):
CO is also getting the 787. I dont think either is at an advantage at this point.

My point was the slot game starts in 2008 and NWA will have several new 787's then. CO is one year behind and out of planes except one diversion of a IAH 777. If NWA want so break into a new market and make a statement, first US carrier to LHR w/787 should put their otherwise sleepy LGW service into a more marketable state. Not to mention, like not much competition in MSP/DTW/MEM so they should be able to capture existing and other's marketshare.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 10:09 am

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 10):
As stated above, why waste the slot on a route with a ton of competition.



Quoting Style (Reply 8):
This isn't the 'Delta' of the good ole days,

the Delta of the past was a little nice for its own good. This Delta has some teeth and isn't afraid to tussle with the big boys - and has the know how to win now.

Quoting Coewraatysaz (Reply 30):
Bankruptcy is a wonderful thing when you can go from the bottom to the top all because you basically cheat.

Except its the law. I'm not sure how I'm cheating by filing taxes or getting a marriage license any more than any US company or individual chooses to file for BK under the relevant sections of the law.

CO had its share of time in BK.

AA chose not to file and now is showing the results of it... a restructuring that is incomplete when compared w/ the formerly BK carriers... and with the employee dissatisfaction and balance sheet to go with it.

DL did what it had to do in BK and will be shown to have "done" BK better than other airlines. That's to the detriment of the other airlines, not Delta.
 
Rivet42
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 29):
....slots are always available...if one is willing to spend the money for them....

Right. So some airlines are just waiting to pull out of LHR, as soon as someone offers them the right price? I wonder which airlines that might be....?  crazy 

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 37):
With ten and a half months to go until CAL can land at LHR some slot(s) will become available.

Hmmmm. Heathrow is going to get a new runway too, but don't hold your breath....!!  Smile
I travel, therefore I am.
 
777gk
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:04 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 1:20 pm

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 27):

That would be a waste of a LHR slot. CO 787s will make their way to London, but will stay in LGW. LHR will be 777 territory.



Quoting Cba (Reply 28):

I don't think we'll see any 787's to London. Those will mostly likely be used to open new destinations in Europe and Asia, and potentially Australia. When IAH-LHR starts, I'd imagine that the route will be operated by the 777, with LGW frequencies being downgraded to a 762 or 764.

Watch. The 787s will give Continental a very marketable competitive advantage in a place (LHR) where they will need it. There is no doubt LHR will see 787s. You can count on that.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 39):

AA chose not to file and now is showing the results of it... a restructuring that is incomplete when compared w/ the formerly BK carriers... and with the employee dissatisfaction and balance sheet to go with it.

DL did what it had to do in BK and will be shown to have "done" BK better than other airlines. That's to the detriment of the other airlines, not Delta.

Chapter 11 is not a 'trendy', 'chic', 'in' thing to 'do'. You are completely off your rocker if you think that DL has found some magic potion that has turned Chapter 11 into a desirable procedure for airlines to undergo. Delta's bankruptcy was brought about by gross mismanagement of an inherently profitable and well-positioned entity, and its timing during a 'boom' cycle in the industry caused it to get off the ground as rapidly as its assets could be relocated into these burgeoning markets (that DL coincidentally had always been strong in).

Chapter 11 is no panacea, and I'm not downplaying the fact that Delta's people have done a bang-up job pulling the company out of it. It's not a pleasant experience for employees, customers, or creditors. Let's not make it out to be a picnic.

Don't forget that DL is not the first rise-from-the-ashes Chapter 11 success story...I thought we did a pretty damn good job too  Wink.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 2:20 pm

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 40):

Right. So some airlines are just waiting to pull out of LHR, as soon as someone offers them the right price? I wonder which airlines that might be....?  crazy 

...thanks for taking the piss out of my comments...I would give you some credibility but the problem is your comments are just flat out incorrect..... Smile

"....... Air France could transfer slots to Delta or Continental Airlines, SkyTeam members, they (analysts) suggest."*

*ukairportnewsinfo....

....."Four hundred and ninety-nine slots were traded at London-Heathrow between 2001 and 2006,
which is about 6% of the total number of Heathrow slots (8,700 per week according to Mott
McDonald, 2006).; therefore, an average of 1.2% of total slots available was traded annually.18
Slot mobility increased after 9/11 because more airlines were willing to sell owing to financial
distress (Sabena, United, for example)."**

** seo economic research

"Despite the restrictions, ACL (Airport Coordination Ltd., which administers slot allocation at 16 airports in the UK and EU ) projected that "carriers such as bmi, Lufthansa and Air France could enter the Heathrow-US market" and that Continental Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Northwest Airlines and US Airways could gain access through slot exchanges with alliance partners or other carriers willing to deal."***

*** atwonline.com
"Up the Irons!"
 
albird87
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:15 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 4:47 pm

Quoting Nwa757boy (Reply 31):
Not to completely hijack the thread, but I have a feeling that DTW will loose LHR service from BA, from what I hear the flight does poorly. It now continues onto IAH. I'm sure BA could use that slot somewhere else that could make a lot more money, like maybe on a LHR-DFW?

Well BA might not make the rotue profitable but im sure AA will love to fly into DFW from LHR! I mean i think they would love to do that since day one but couldnt!
 
Rivet42
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 42):

Fair enough, I'm aware of the way everyone is talking up the availability of slots, but most of it is pure speculation, and of course one would expect ACL to promote a positive spin on the business that they're in.

What I have issue with is the assumption that once the LHR free-for-all starts, all of these slots are going to appear out of nowhere. (1) Currently the only unused slots, according to ACL's own data, are at times of the day that are not attractive to existing operators. That same data also shows that the desired periods of the daily schedule are already over-subscribed in terms of slot requests. (2) The assumption everyone seems to be making is that a proportion of the existing slots are being under-utilised by the present owners, and they will suddenly decide to sell those slots because of Open Skies. Well, who knows? We are in the post-'post-9/11' era, where airlines have gone through network rationalisations, route slimming, restructuring etc. Maybe there is still more 'wastage' to be cut from the industry, but the current pre-'Open Skies' pressure on ACL for slots at LHR tends to suggest that the slack isn't there. Of course, as demand rises next year, and the price for a pair of usble slots rises, that may well change, but it is just speculation.
(3) I stand by my point about AF, KL, LH etc. Yes, they will face pressure from their alliance partners, and there will for certain be some horse-trading, but their priority will be to protect their own markets, and that will likely limit how many slots they are willing to give up.

My point above all is that we can speculate as much as we like about how many slots might change hands next year, but in reality I honestly belive that it will be a lot less than is being assumed.

We will see, eh?!  Smile
I travel, therefore I am.
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Mon May 14, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 32):
We dont know which flight would preform better to LHR. Its one thing to get the slots, but a whole other thing to make the flight succeed.



Quoting 777gk (Reply 41):
Watch. The 787s will give Continental a very marketable competitive advantage in a place (LHR) where they will need it. There is no doubt LHR will see 787s. You can count on that.

Hmm, good point. I'm assuming we'll have to wait for the 789 to come online before we see a CO 787 at LHR, as the 788 seems to be too small for this mission, especially given that IAH-LGW currently fills 2 daily 777's. If they can fill 2 777's to LGW, I can't imagine CO having difficulty filling similar loads to LHR.

EWR-LHR will be the competitive market, and it would make sense for CO to use the 787 on that route to get a tremendous cost advantage on the current incumbents flying the 747/777/A340.

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 43):
Well BA might not make the rotue profitable but im sure AA will love to fly into DFW from LHR! I mean i think they would love to do that since day one but couldnt!

IIRC, as soon as open skies takes effect, BA will move IAH and DFW flights to LHR. This way, they can finally connect the two largest One World hubs, and regarding IAH, exploit all of LHR's connecting opportunities. The only reason why the DTW flight continues to IAH is to capture premium passengers who connect through LHR to oil destinations.
 
777gk
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:04 am

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Tue May 15, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting Cba (Reply 45):
788 seems to be too small for this mission

The 789, which comprises the bulk of CO's orders, is between the 764 and 772 in capacity, so this could be the solution.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: CAL LHR Slots?

Tue May 15, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 44):
Fair enough, I'm aware of the way everyone is talking up the availability of slots, but most of it is pure speculation, and of course one would expect ACL to promote a positive spin on the business that they're in.

...of course it is pure speculation (until a carrier makes an announcement).....the point is that there is a very high statistical probability that both CO and DL will be serving LHR in 2008....

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 44):
What I have issue with is the assumption that once the LHR free-for-all starts, all of these slots are going to appear out of nowhere.

.....I don't think anyone intelligent on A.net is stating there will be an instant plethora of slots available at peak times...

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 44):
That same data also shows that the desired periods of the daily schedule are already over-subscribed in terms of slot requests.

......sure, fairly obvious.....but again, everything has its price.... dollarsign 

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 44):
The assumption everyone seems to be making is that a proportion of the existing slots are being under-utilised by the present owners, and they will suddenly decide to sell those slots because of Open Skies.

......again, no one here is making that assumption.. no ....

......but an arcane fact which many might not know is that some slots are being under-utilised.....

"The flights are being run by British Mediterranean Airways (BMed) — until recently part-owned by the family of Wafic Said, the Syrian-born financier — which flies the Airbus passenger plane from Heathrow to Cardiff and back six times a week. As a British Airways franchise, it pays a percentage of its revenue to BA in return for operating in its livery.

No tickets are sold and all 124 passenger seats are empty. Because there are no passengers, the “ghost” flights, which have run since October, do not appear on departure or arrival boards.

The sole purpose is to keep hold of landing slots on runways at Heathrow, the world’s busiest airport for international flights."*

*timesonline.co.uk

.........this happened with QF a few years ago also....

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 44):
(3) I stand by my point about AF, KL, LH etc. Yes, they will face pressure from their alliance partners, and there will for certain be some horse-trading, but their priority will be to protect their own markets, and that will likely limit how many slots they are willing to give up.

..of course they will protect their own markets....that's just good business sense..but as an example I gave with AF flying an A318, it might be a better bet to allow DL/CO bring in one of their flights with possible better yields and revenues.....

...we don't know all of the numbers or variables..but we're speculating here anyway...

Quoting Cba (Reply 45):

IIRC, as soon as open skies takes effect, BA will move IAH and DFW flights to LHR.

.....that's about as certain as death and taxes... spin ....
"Up the Irons!"