Ruscoe
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Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 12:46 pm

There was a similar topic (which has been locked) but it broke down into the usual A v B, and never answered the above question.

In short why would Airbus reduce the seat count, when it will make no difference to the way airlines compare it to the 748 or any other craft. They will all do their own calculations for their projected seat counts. It does give nominal range increase but once again the airlines could achieve this themselves without Airbus changing the numbers.

Using the Airbus argument about most airlines wanting more premium seating etc, it does give it an added advantage to the 380 over the 748 because the seat count goes down more in the 747 than the 380.

However airlines won't be side tracked by this so I find it an intriguing question.

What is the real reason?

Ruscoe
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 2:38 pm

A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft? (by XT6Wagon Apr 27 2007 in Civil Aviation)
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 3:33 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Thread starter):
What is the real reason?

So you can market something with "more range" than the competition?
So you can preempt the competition's improved offering claiming "more range"?
So the cargo hold isn't quite so bursting with LD3s full of luggage?
So you can claim even greater space per passenger than the competition?
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 3:38 pm

All those things are logical but an airline is not going to fall for that. They will do their own numbers.

As far as the obvious goes it seems to me to be a pointless exercise to lower the seat count.

Ruscoe
 
astuteman
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Thread starter):
Using the Airbus argument about most airlines wanting more premium seating etc, it does give it an added advantage to the 380 over the 748 because the seat count goes down more in the 747 than the 380.

That sort of answer the question........

Quoting Ruscoe (Thread starter):
However airlines won't be side tracked by this so I find it an intriguing question.

However, they might be if this is actually a more realistic representation of what will happen in real-life service...  Smile

Regards
 
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scbriml
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 3:57 pm

As per a recent issue of Flight International, the new number of 525 more accurately reflects the number of seats that an airline will typically fit in an A380. This takes account of newer F and J type seating/suites.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...irbus-reduces-a380-seat-count.html
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zeke
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 4:43 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Thread starter):
What is the real reason?

The 555 seat on the 380 is based on seat pitches of F@68", J@48", and at Y@32", giving a capacity of 22F/96J/437Y.

Most airlines are now using a pitch of around 60" (EK/QF/TG/AC/AA use 60") for J, some going up to 70-80" (SA/BA 73", LH 80"), the 525 represents the cabin with a layout F@74", J@60", and at Y@32", the 525 layout is 10F/76J/439Y.

The seats disappeared when the 16 rows of J class on the upper deck went from 48" pitch to 60" pitch, the number of rows reduced, hence the seat count, same with F class.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
slz396
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 5:01 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 5):
As per a recent issue of Flight International, the new number of 525 more accurately reflects the number of seats that an airline will typically fit in an A380. This takes account of newer F and J type seating/suites.

Indeed, that's all there is to it, so it seems.

Too bad for those who had hoped the reduction was due to Airbus trying to hide the A380 is not meeting its payload/range targets.

A380 director of product marketing Richard Carcaillet call Boeing's 467-seat count for their 747-8I "dream numbers".

He says that a realistic layout (using similar seat pitch numbers as on the A380) for the 747-8I is "around 400 seats".


If one uses the new Airbus approach to use market realistic seating configurations, rather than business seats which are more like economy plus seats, the 747-8I indeed turns into a 405-seater, compared with Boeing's standard three-class accommodation of 467 passengers,

That's quite a difference!

Didn't know Boeing had to prop up their seating numbers THAT much to make their numbers look much better.
Must be that without it, they can't come close to those of the A380, or they wouldn't bother being so untruthful. Wonder how the real 747-8i does against the A380?
 
zvezda
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 5:28 pm

There is nothing sinister in this. F/C seats have become much larger over the last 20 years. Airbus have simply updated their nominal seating specs to more closely conform with an evolving reality. Airbus should be commended for this, not subjected to aspersions. Hopefully, Boeing will follow suit soon.
 
slz396
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 5:55 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 10):
There is nothing sinister in this. F/C seats have become much larger over the last 20 years. Airbus have simply updated their nominal seating specs to more closely conform with an evolving reality. Airbus should be commended for this, not subjected to aspersions. Hopefully, Boeing will follow suit soon.

I wonder if they will, because for sure a 405 seating 747-8i will have a much harder time comparing to a 525 seating A380, than the 467 seating 747-8i had against the 555 seating A380.

A simple calculation shows that all Boeing numbers based on seat count will suffer an ADDITIONAL 10% penalty, on top of the penalty from using the more realistic seat counts.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 6:11 pm

I've always wondered about that - good question.

You know when you see Leahy showing various people round the A380 mock-up - and things are said about how nice the seats are etc. You get whole segments on the luxury of the A380's premium class seats etc - surely thats just for illustration purposes only and all the customers will just fit their own seats or rather, provide the seats/specs for Airbus to do it for them?

Fact is - 525 is a ballpark figure - nothing more. Means very little I would think. VS for example will probably have a few more than that in there as they pack the Y class seats in tightly and their C class will be large and numerous, whereas SQ may have a few less because of the massive amounts of room their F class seats take up etc. Example - its been noted on here a few times that BA would have fewer seats on their A380 (if they ordered) than some operators have on their 744 - due to huge First and Club World products in terms of floorspace and weight. How near would they be to a nominal 525 figure? I would think 450 would be a lot more realistic. Any comments?

I wonder what the parameters are. (thinking out loud here)

Y class - how wide are the "seats" and whats the hypothtical pitch I wonder? 31" pitch and 18" wide is about average IIRC. Ten abreast in Y on both decks presumably? Would you say thats roughly industry average?

You would think EK would think seriously about having 11 abreast in the cheap seats and similar pitch to their 777s - whereas SQ would likely follow the above model more closely.

[Edited 2007-05-15 11:37:13]
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
zvezda
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 6:25 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
its been noted on here a few times that BA would have fewer seats on their A380 (if they ordered) than some operators have on their 744 - due to huge First and Club World products in terms of floorspace and weight. How near would they be to a nominal 525 figure? I would think 450 would be a lot more realistic. Any comments?

I would expect BA's seat count, if they were to order WhaleJets, to be in the 450 to 500 range.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
Y class - how wide are the "seats" and whats the hypothetical pitch I wonder? 21" pitch and 18" wide is about average IIRC. Ten abreast in Y on both decks presumably?

Y on the WhaleJet will typically be an 18" wide seat at 31 or 32" pitch. 21" pitch is impossible for adults. The WhaleJet will normally have 10 abreast on the maindeck and 8 abreast on the upper deck.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 6:33 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
Y class - how wide are the "seats" and whats the hypothetical pitch I wonder? 21" pitch and 18" wide is about average IIRC. Ten abreast in Y on both decks presumably?

Y on the WhaleJet will typically be an 18" wide seat at 31 or 32" pitch. 21" pitch is impossible for adults. The WhaleJet will normally have 10 abreast on the maindeck and 8 abreast on the upper deck.

31" sorry typo LOL  Wink
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 6:34 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
WhaleJets

Have you actually had that term patented?  

I used it the other day in TG's credit report and sat down with the client discussing what was written and they knew exactly what I was referring to!

[Edited 2007-05-15 11:36:31]
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
antonovman
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 6:56 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 17):
Have you actually had that term patented?

I used it the other day in TG's credit report and sat down with the client discussing what was written and they knew exactly what I was referring to!

I think it sounds awful, its the kind of slur the americans would use while they're constantly slagging off airbus
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting Antonovman (Reply 18):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 17):
Have you actually had that term patented?

I used it the other day in TG's credit report and sat down with the client discussing what was written and they knew exactly what I was referring to!

I think it sounds awful, its the kind of slur the americans would use while they're constantly slagging off airbus

True, but its sort of stuck - many people use it now. Many planes have derogatory nicknames that are held in some affection. BUFF, SLUF, FRED etc spring to mind.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 7:55 pm

You all make good points but I still can't see the point.

The airlines would be doing their sums themselves anyway.

Making the 380 525 seats does not make the 747 any better or worse in comparison than it was before the announcement.

The airlines would have known this in their analysis, regardless of anything Airbus or Boeing say.

Cheers
Ruscoe
 
zvezda
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 8:06 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 20):
You all make good points but I still can't see the point.

The manufacturers must either have or not have a methodology for determining nominal seat counts. If they are going to have such a methodology, then having one that is more representative of what actual airlines currently do with actual seat counts is better than one which is more representative of what airlines were doing twenty years ago -- as Boeing have.
 
slz396
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 8:17 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 20):
You all make good points but I still can't see the point.
The airlines would be doing their sums themselves anyway, regardless of anything Airbus or Boeing say.

What airlines think is only said when they order it and disappears from public attention soon after...

Manufacturer's presentation sheets and press kits all base their comparisons on a generic comparison, based on the numbers each manufacturer provides as 'standard seating configuration', rather than on the more logical yet often varying customer specific seating configurations.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 20):
Making the 380 525 seats does not make the 747 any better or worse in comparison than it was before the announcement.

Wrong.

It is my view Airbus is forcing Boeing to publish more realistic and much less impressive operating cost figures for the 747-8I by lowering the seat count of their A380 through using a more realistic seating arrangement, to which Boeing will have to react.

Boeing can now either:

-) keep on pushing the 747-8i as a 467 seater, and compare it to a 525 seating A380, at which point it becomes visually obvious even to total aviation nitwits that something is fishy here, as the A380 would only seat 58 pax more.

-) follow Airbus' exemple and use the same level of seating comfort as basis for their seat count, by which they then will have to accept extra operating cost penalties on top of those caused by the seat reduction itself, since the seat reduction will be more dramatic for the 747-8I then for the A380.

-) do something in between (ex; claim the 747-8i is a 440 seater), and thus silently admit the 747-8i can only be compared favourably to the A380, by spinning the numbers...

Either way, this is going to be a PR decision which will leave some egg on the face of the 747-8I, and it will be watched closely no doubt...
 
zvezda
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 8:42 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 22):
follow Airbus' exemple and use the same level of seating comfort as basis for their seat count, by which they then will have to accept extra operating cost penalties on top of those caused by the seat reduction itself, since the seat reduction will be more dramatic for the 747-8I then for the A380.

That assumes Airbus made the same effort to squeeze as many standard size seats into the 747-8 SuperJumbo as they did with the WhaleJet. That's dubious. I haven't yet seen any sort of explanation why more realistic seating methodology would favor the WhaleJet over the SuperJumbo, nor have I seen any independent evidence that it would. All we seem to have is Airbus' assertion.
 
slz396
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 23):
I haven't yet seen any sort of explanation why more realistic seating methodology would favor the WhaleJet over the SuperJumbo, nor have I seen any independent evidence that it would.

Oh, it definitely favours the superjumbo, it just depends on what plane you think is the superjumbo...
to most people on this planet, it undoubtedly is the A380.


Seriously now; working off the numbers provided in the FI article:

Before: 555 vs 467 -> 1.188

Now: 525 vs 405 -> 1.296

The seating gap between the A380 and the 747-8i is clearly widening and this to the disadvantage of the 747-8I if one is to calculate its operating costs on a seat basis.

If Boeing is to follow suit and adopt a realistic seating configuration, they will have to cut the seating capacity of the 747-8i. Obviously they will try to pump up the seating numbers of the 747-8i by as many standard Y seats as possible to the expense of a ridiculously small C and F class, but one can wonder whether this is truly in line with today's market needs then, nor would it make the generic 747-8i configuration any more real than it is today, something which the new generic A380 configuration definitely is.

Either way, the operating cost figures of the 747-8i must not look nearly as good as Boeing tries to make them appear, because they clearly lack the flexibility to be adapted successfully to new configurations which differ from the standard set by Boeing. A plane with operating costs so rigidly dependent on a totally unrealistic and long outdated seating configuration years before it enters service, isn't likely to have "stellar operating costs" (dixit EK's CEO on the A380) in the real world like a real Superjumbo does...

[Edited 2007-05-15 14:11:55]
 
norcal
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 9:17 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 24):

It is hypocritical of you to shoot down Boeing's number of 467 and then hold up Airbus' 405. Airbus and Boeing are both very biased when it comes to this and will spin numbers in their favor. Don't assume that Boeing is lying if they come up with something a little higher than 405 (467 is unrealistic and shouldn't be trusted either)
 
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zeke
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 24):
If Boeing is to follow suit and adopt a realistic seating configuration, they will have to cut the seating capacity of the 747-8i.

Boeing were using F@61", J@39", Y@32", compared to Airbus F@68", J@48", and at Y@32", Airbus already had 7" more pitch in F, and 9" in J. Boeing had no where near the space in F and J, their seat count would come down if a more realistic F@74", J@60", Y@32" was used.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
Dougloid
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Tue May 15, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 20):
You all make good points but I still can't see the point.

The airlines would be doing their sums themselves anyway.

Making the 380 525 seats does not make the 747 any better or worse in comparison than it was before the announcement.

The airlines would have known this in their analysis, regardless of anything Airbus or Boeing say.

Cheers

Mister, here's your mule.

Go back a couple months to the grand fandango and excessive media joyride that Airbus staged for the press, in which several hundred supposed journalists went stooging around for a couple hours. Read the articles. Some very interesting information about the A380 was released in those articles that pertains to the operating weight of the aircraft.

Next, take your AC43-13 and your pocket calculator and start doing the numbers.

It should answer all your questions quite nicely.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
ncelhr
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 1:51 am

The bottom line seems to be that if Boeing wants to compete with the A380, they will need to design a new superjumbo from scratch and not be able to stretch the 747 to its limit.
Just like Airbus had to think about designing a brand new A350 against the 787 instead of proposing a 330 derivate.

Sounds like things are going to get costly for both manufacturers...
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 47):
The bottom line seems to be that if Boeing wants to compete with the A380, they will need to design a new superjumbo from scratch and not be able to stretch the 747 to its limit.

Why would Boeing want to spend $16 billion to compete with a plane that's only sold 160 copies after being on sale for more than six years? A plane that will never break even? A plane with ZERO freighter orders?

The A380 is an albatross around Airbus neck. It is the reason they are posting losses in during the biggest aviation boom in history.

Boeings all new plane was the 787, and it's turning out to be a brilliant decision.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
ncelhr
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 48):
Why would Boeing want to spend $16 billion to compete with a plane that's only sold 160 copies after being on sale for more than six years? A plane that will never break even? A plane with ZERO freighter orders?

My point exactly. I said: "If Boeing *wants* to compete with the A380". Obviously, they don't, and I don't blame them for that choice.  Smile
 
thebry
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 7):
Too bad for those who had hoped the reduction was due to Airbus trying to hide the A380 is not meeting its payload/range targets.

A380 director of product marketing Richard Carcaillet call Boeing's 467-seat count for their 747-8I "dream numbers".

He says that a realistic layout (using similar seat pitch numbers as on the A380) for the 747-8I is "around 400 seats".

There's something weird here. Why is it Airbus management consistently feel the need to use language like the above when referring to Boeing planes and initiatives? "dream numbers," "chinese copy," etc. It's in poor taste -- especially when you contrast that language with the public face Boeing puts forward. They rarely if ever have anything sarcastic or derogatory to say about Airbus (at least publicly).

Quoting Antonovman (Reply 18):
I think it sounds awful, its the kind of slur the americans would use while they're constantly slagging off airbus

I think THAT sounds awful -- you just "slagged off" an entire country.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
You would think EK would think seriously about having 11 abreast in the cheap seats and similar pitch to their 777s

IIRC it has been discussed that such a configuration won't fit and result in much narrower seats and aisles than on a 10-abreast 777.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 24):
The seating gap between the A380 and the 747-8i is clearly widening and this to the disadvantage of the 747-8I if one is to calculate its operating costs on a seat basis.

Airlines, who are the only influent cost calculators (unlike A.net geeks), won't use any of these numbers but floor area, cabin width, length, etc... to calculate the costs using their ideal F-J-Y seat ratios. I honestly don't really get the point of all this PR made by airlines as it is clear that NO ONE of us will ever buy any (it's not like a car...) and only airlines, who hire committees of experts, will.
When I doubt... go running!
 
David_itl
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 48):
A plane that will never break even?

Seeing that you've gone into the future and seen all the orders that will have been gathered, please can you supply me with winning lottery numbers for the next 15 to 20 years!

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 48):
and it's turning out to be a brilliant decision.

So if we analyse their "brilliant decision", it's along the lines of let's replace our oldest widebody with something that's similar, and bring something new in the manufacturing process?

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 48):
neck. It is the reason they are posting losses in during the biggest aviation boom in history

And after all the compensation issues have been sorted (max 2 years), there'll be no more "exceptional items" reported in EADS accounts.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 48):
A plane with ZERO freighter orders?

As you've been to the future, you should be telling us what the FedEx and UPS fleets will look like. By the time the A80F is back on the timetable, the timing may be perfect for both them and Airbus.
 
airtran717
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 7):
Didn't know Boeing had to prop up their seating numbers THAT much to make their numbers look much better.
Must be that without it, they can't come close to those of the A380, or they wouldn't bother being so untruthful. Wonder how the real 747-8i does against the A380?

Again, someone is seemingly trying to turn this into yet another A vs. B thread. I'm sure there is a more logical answer than Boeing just outright lying to its customers. The bottom line is, that for any sales-oriented industry, the product usually speaks for itself. The job of the sales staff is to convince you to sign on their dotted line rather than the other guy's. Being that I have worked in sales before, there is a certain amount of what is called "creating a need"... call it upselling, marginalizing the competition, or just "lying"... I know there is always a certain amount of that that goes on. But I seriously doubt a company like Boeing has to lower themselves to lying just to make a sale. Here, the products speak for themselves. Both planes offer what no other product can. It's just one-upmanship on the parts of the marketing and sales teams. Simple. No A vs. B necessary here.

717
 
EI321
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 48):
Boeings all new plane was the 787, and it's turning out to be a brilliant decision.

They had no choice. They had lost too many customers to the A330, the sonic cruiser was rejected by airlines, so the only logical path was to develop an aircraft that did what the A330 did, but better, with technology that had since come available. I think brilliant timing is a good summary.

The A380 was not forced on Airbus by lost sales, as they did not previously compete in the VLA segment.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting David_itl (Reply 55):
So if we analyse their "brilliant decision", it's along the lines of let's replace our oldest widebody with something that's similar, and bring something new in the manufacturing process?

Their oldest widebody is the 747.

The "brilliant decision" was to build a plane that's has 567 firm orders before its even flown. It's called listening to your customers, not your ego.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
Buddys747
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 18):
Wrong.

It is my view Airbus is forcing Boeing to publish more realistic and much less impressive operating cost figures for the 747-8I by lowering the seat count of their A380 through using a more realistic seating arrangement, to which Boeing will have to react.

These are two different aircraft. I guess we should compare the A330 and 777 then too, and so on.
 
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glideslope
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 7):
Didn't know Boeing had to prop up their seating numbers THAT much to make their numbers look much better.
Must be that without it, they can't come close to those of the A380, or they wouldn't bother being so untruthful. Wonder how the real 747-8i does against the A380?

Boeing untruthful? Givin the misinformation from the A side over the past 24m, IMO, you my friend need a long vacation.  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
deltadc9
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 31):
They had no choice. They had lost too many customers to the A330, the sonic cruiser was rejected by airlines, so the only logical path was to develop an aircraft that did what the A330 did, but better, with technology that had since come available. I think brilliant timing is a good summary.

Total BS. The Sonic Cruiser was the 767 replacement, it saw a great deal of interest until 9/11. 9/11 changed market conditions and Boeing adapted, revising thier offering to the 7E7. That is called good business.

BTW, the 787 will outsell the 330 total production before EIS. So who exactly is driving the market?

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 30):
I'm sure there is a more logical answer than Boeing just outright lying to its customers.

I have been trying to eaplain what I beleive to be the truth but it was all deleted. I will try again:

Boeing is comparing the 744 and 748 using the same metrics and methods. Otherwise the numbers mean nothing. It is simply a method of comparison. Obviously you could configure a 744 or a 748 with 0 to 555 seats, the question answered by these numbers is how much bigger is the 748 than the 744, and how does it compare with the 777, 787, etc. The only way to answer is to use the exact same method to calculate. Whether or not it is real world is moot, because each airline configures differently anyway. Where we get lost os in the comparison of the two different methods used by A and B, and when A changes their method, it clouds the issue even further.

If I were to say that a Tahoe and a Suburban (which is bigger) seat the same amount of people, the only way to back that up is to use the same metric for both vehicles. If you use different metrics, then any stat quoted would be meaningless. I could install seats from a Yugo and get 4 across and strap a couch on the roof and seat 20 in the Tahoe. If I leave the Suburban at 7 factory seats, then what does this mean, absolutely nothing.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
zvezda
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 35):
Boeing is comparing the 744 and 748 using the same metrics and methods.

It's time to apply a new 21st century metric to both and to all the other Boeing models.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 24):
The bottom line seems to be that if Boeing wants to compete with the A380, they will need to design a new superjumbo from scratch and not be able to stretch the 747 to its limit.

I think the A380 is the last aircraft of its class that will ever be built. This decision is going to be talked about in the business schools as a cautionary tale for the next fifty years.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
deltadc9
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 36):
It's time to apply a new 21st century metric to both and to all the other Boeing models.

Agreed, and Airbus needs to consistantly apply the same metrics to all thier models. To take it a step further, both need to do the industry a favor and, as crazy as this sounds, use the same metrics.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
keesje
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 9:42 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 37):
I think the A380 is the last aircraft of its class that will ever be built. This decision is going to be talked about in the business schools as a cautionary tale for the next fifty years.

I on the other hand think 4-5 serious new customers will join the impressive launch customer group in the next 2 yrs and the A380 bashing of the last 5 yrs be referrenced as an amuzing archive of transatlantic envy  Wink

http://www.airbus.com/en/airbuslive/a-380-route-proving-march-2007/img/getOptionMedia.htm?id=522
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
deltadc9
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 9:54 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 39):
I on the other hand think 4-5 serious new customers will join the impressive launch customer group in the next 2 yrs and the A380 bashing of the last 5 yrs be referrenced as an amuzing archive of transatlantic envy

Envy? No. Inability to understand why Airbus bet the farm on a niche market leaving a huge market all to Boeing? Yes.

I would guess it will take a hell of a lot more new customers than 4-5 to break even, they are filling a swimming pool with an coffee cup at this point. meanwhile the 787 is about to outsell the 330 before 787 EIS. Do you really wonder why so many are so baffled?
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
Dougloid
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 39):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 37):
I think the A380 is the last aircraft of its class that will ever be built. This decision is going to be talked about in the business schools as a cautionary tale for the next fifty years.

I on the other hand think 4-5 serious new customers will join the impressive launch customer group in the next 2 yrs and the A380 bashing of the last 5 yrs be referrenced as an amuzing archive of transatlantic envy

As one of my old profs used to say "That's what makes for horseraces and lawsuits". Only time will tell, and that bitch settles ALL arguments.

We'll have to have this discussion in about ten years, I think. Perhaps by that time I'll be able to scrape up airfare to a neutral forum.

In the interests of cross ocean amity and all, y'know.


 Wink  Wink  Wink
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
EI321
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 35):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 31):
They had no choice. They had lost too many customers to the A330, the sonic cruiser was rejected by airlines, so the only logical path was to develop an aircraft that did what the A330 did, but better, with technology that had since come available. I think brilliant timing is a good summary.

Total BS. The Sonic Cruiser was the 767 replacement

Its not BS at all. The 787 is targeted squarely at the A330's market, just like the 767-400ER.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 58):
They had no choice.

They had a choice. They could build a new VLA of their own, or they could build the 787. They made the right choice.

Quote:
The A380 was not forced on Airbus by lost sales, as they did not previously compete in the VLA segment.

They were losing sales to the 747, and they still are. Since the A380 went on sale in 2000, the 747 has outsold it. Now that's an amusing archive of transatlantic envy.  Big grin
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
EI321
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Wed May 16, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 43):
They could build a new VLA of their own, or they could build the 787.

They are doing both, the 747-8 is Boeings answer in the VLA market

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...47-8-vs-a380-a-titanic-tussle.html
 
deltadc9
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Thu May 17, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 42):
The 787 is targeted squarely at the A330's market, just like the 767-400ER.

Disagree with Boeing all you want, but the 787 IS the 767 and 757-300 replacement in their product lineup.

If its only target was the 330 market, then they are already done having outsold the 330 before the 787 EIS.

The 330s out there are simply one of many targets, dont you think the 950 767s and 55 753's are just as relevant as the 600 or so 330s? Add to that the remaining MD-11's and even DC-10's and if there are any left the L-1011 still in passenger service? Target markets are determined by your own sales too, not just the compititions.

Also, the 764 was never intended to be Boeings answer to the 330, the Sonic cruiser was.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Thu May 17, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 44):
Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 43):
They could build a new VLA of their own, or they could build the 787.

They are doing both, the 747-8 is Boeings answer in the VLA market

What I meant by "new" is a totally new plane, not a derivative, but you knew that--didin't you?
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
zvezda
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Thu May 17, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 45):
Disagree with Boeing all you want, but the 787 IS the 767 and 757-300 replacement in their product lineup.

Cabin floor areas:

767-200: 154.9 sq meters
767-300: 184.5 sq meters
767-400: 214.1 sq meters
787-3/8: 223.8 sq meters
A330-200: 231.3 sq meters
787-9: 257.4 sq meters
A330-300: 259.1 sq meters
777-200: 279.0 sq meters
787-10: 291.1 sq meters
787-11X: 324.6 sq meters (hypothetical)
777-300: 330.4 sq meters
 
EI321
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Thu May 17, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 45):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 42):
The 787 is targeted squarely at the A330's market, just like the 767-400ER.

Disagree with Boeing all you want, but the 787 IS the 767 and 757-300 replacement in their product lineup.

DC9, thats exactly what Im trying to say, whats the condusion? The 767 was getting roasted by the A330 and Boeings answer was to replace it with a 'Boeing A330', but way better.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 45):
The 330s out there are simply one of many targets, dont you think the 950 767s and 55 753's are just as relevant as the 600 or so 330s?

Its not just about replacement, its about winning market share. Theres a reason why the 767 replacement is larger than the 767. Because thats where the  dollarsign  is these days.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Why Is A380 Now A 525 Seater?

Thu May 17, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 48):
The 767 was getting roasted by the A330

That might be an exageration. The 767 sold about 60 copies 2003-2006 and this year has sold 36. There are only 212 A-330-300s delivered and 254 A-330-200s for a total of 466. There are 950 767s delivered. 767 orders in the last 4.5 years equal 20 percent of all 330s deliverd ever. Those are numbers of a very successful 25 year program ramping down and remaining somewhat competative at the same time.

I am not saying the 330 is not a great plane, or that it is not a very strong seller, but people around here exagerate the 330's so called dominance and write off the 767 program as dead and it seems to be thought of as fact when neither is really true.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny