azstagecoach
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WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 5:16 pm

I've seen a bunch of articles on a University of Michigan survey released today, but not the survey itself. From what I can gather, DL ranked last, UA was second-last, AA and NW were slightly better. WN was first, and CO was up there too. 20,000 people surveyed-- that's a pretty good sample IMO.

A representative article:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...articles/0515biz-airlines0515.html
 
Delta787
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 9:01 pm

Quoting Azstagecoach (Thread starter):
20,000 people surveyed-- that's a pretty good sample IMO.

The amount of people sampled really doesnt matter much. What matters is the demographics you sample.
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rampart
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 10:16 pm

Quoting Delta787 (Reply 1):
The amount of people sampled really doesnt matter much. What matters is the demographics you sample.

A good demographic cross section is important, but the larger your sample, the more reliable the study. A large sample has a greater opportunity of arriving at a demographic cross section.

-Rampart
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 10:19 pm

Quoting Delta787 (Reply 1):
The amount of people sampled really doesnt matter much. What matters is the demographics you sample.

Uh huh. And what makes you think they didn't survey the right demographics, or that their results are not indicative of Delta's position relative to the rest of the airlines in the survey?
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
deltagator
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting Azstagecoach (Thread starter):
AA and NW were slightly better. WN was first, and CO was up there too.

How do you get that from the article you posted? The only numbers quoted were an industry average of 63 with WN at 76 (only a C+ average BTW) and US Airways at 61. The only mention of CO was that it improved over last year so how do you reckon that they were up there too? And the article never mentions NW or AA so I have no idea where you are getting that they were slightly better. Post your source to the full scores if you have it but please don't make things up or take wild guesses with nothing to back you up.

I'm not saying DL or any of the others don't have their problems because they all do. WN only scores a C+ average and that was an improvement from last year. I'd love to see the full list with numbers and what questions were asked and how. I personally think the airline industry does a halfway decent job given the mess they put themselves into over the last decade. I would also argue that you might see higher numbers out of frequent fliers versus Joe Six Pack that flies once or twice a year on whomever is the cheapest and might have one bad experience to turn them off.
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InnocuousFox
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 10:43 pm

Wow... this thread was on my screen as the story came up on CNBC (I day-trade airline and railroad stocks). They said the same thing: DAL was on the bottom and WN and CO were at the top. Don't get prickly, Gator.
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LawnDart
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 10:50 pm

Quoting Delta787 (Reply 1):
The amount of people sampled really doesnt matter much. What matters is the demographics you sample.

Also, how does U of Mich ask questions...their survey methodology has been criticized in the past.

By the way, it didn't specify in the article linked, but UA (56 points) was last, DL second to last (59 points).

Maybe you should change the title of your thread?
 
deltagator
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 10:50 pm

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 5):
Don't get prickly, Gator.

I'm not getting prickly but when the OP makes leaps of faith based on his opinion or a source he doesn't share while providing another source with no info it raises some red flags.

The article posted gives no info on who was polled and what the questions were. I'm not throwing out conspiracy theories ala Blackbird but I'm just curious what the criteria was for it. Like I said earlier I know that DL has their issues but to put WN up on a pedastel for a C+ average says how poorly we think of the airline industry at least according to this survey.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
Delta787
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 3):
Uh huh. And what makes you think they didn't survey the right demographics, or that their results are not indicative of Delta's position relative to the rest of the airlines in the survey?

I didnt say they they surveyed the wrong demographics. Your putting words in my mouth. I simply said that demographics are important when conducting a survey.

[Edited 2007-05-15 16:13:36]
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WNCrew
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 11:05 pm

I think you should all visit aqr.com and actually educate yourselves before deciding you're not going to hold stock in something JUST because your particular airline of choice didn't come out on top. If you don't like this study then what about the DOT reports? We've placed 1st every year since 1987 in Customer Service, except for 2004 when we were in second. I think that says something.

Taken from the 2007 AQR Report:
"Southwest Airlines (WN) recorded a slight decrease in on-time arrival percentage (80.2% in 2006 from 80.7% in 2005) and an identical customer complaint rate of 0.18 per 100,000 passengers in both 2006 and 2005. Southwest Airlines is consistently the airline with the lowest customer complaint rate in the industry."
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
deltagator
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 11:16 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 9):
I think you should all visit aqr.com

AQR Capital? What do they have to do with this one? I looked in the Published Papers section and there was nothing of note. All I have asked for is a link to the survey results and not an incomplete article with little to no information.

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 9):
actually educate yourselves before deciding you're not going to hold stock in something JUST because your particular airline of choice didn't come out on top.

One last time since some of you seem to have a learning problem...I don't care where DL finishes or any other airline for that matter. I'm happy with DL's performance when I fly them. I've been happy with AA other than their ability to lose my luggage 3 weeks in a row and then blame me for their mishap. UA and NW have also been just fine when I've flown them as well and I've had no complaints.

I just called the OP out on stating things that were not backed up by the source he provided and requested the link to the full survey. If you folks can't understand that point then I give up.

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 9):
Taken from the 2007 AQR Report:
"Southwest Airlines (WN) recorded a slight decrease in on-time arrival percentage (80.2% in 2006 from 80.7% in 2005) and an identical customer complaint rate of 0.18 per 100,000 passengers in both 2006 and 2005. Southwest Airlines is consistently the airline with the lowest customer complaint rate in the industry."

Nothing against WN or any other airline but it is a sad state of affairs when we consider an airline with a B- average as the best airline in the nation. It just shows how little we expect of the airlines.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 11:26 pm

Here is the complete survey.

http://www.theacsi.org/index.php?opt...ontent&task=view&id=171&Itemid=170

The survey encompasses many businesses, is released quarterly, and its methodology is above reproach by one of the best busienss schools in the country.
 
WNCrew
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 11:32 pm

Sorry guys, when I copied and poasted it didn't all paste...the link to AQR is this http://www.aqr.aero/.

Also, just curious, where do you get that WN's position equals B- ?

I notice our biggest problem is with luggage and I don't understand why,....we don't even have as many codeshares with other carriers and we still manage to have so many baggage issues.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
deltagator
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 11:43 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 12):
Also, just curious, where do you get that WN's position equals B- ?

80% = B- in every grading system I have seen before. 95=A, 85=B, 75=C, etc. with above those being a + and below those being a - therefore 80.2 and 80.7 equals a B-.

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 12):
Sorry guys, when I copied and poasted it didn't all paste...the link to AQR is this http://www.aqr.aero/.

Ok, I thought I was losing it a little bit. You're off the hook....this time.  Wink

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 12):
I notice our biggest problem is with luggage and I don't understand why,....we don't even have as many codeshares with other carriers and we still manage to have so many baggage issues.

I would only imagine that the same thing that causes trouble for the hub and spoke systems causes issues for you guys when a bag goes off to a location that it shouldn't. It might even be more of an issue when doing the point to point stuff. If you sent my bag to some far off location and it had to go through 4 cities on the cross country city hopper flight to make it to where I am would open it up for even more error. Versus the hub system where they just send it back to the hub from which it came and then out to the right outstation. Just my thought off the top of my head. Perhaps I'm offbase. Discuss! (the idea, not my sanity.)
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
deltagator
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Tue May 15, 2007 11:52 pm

Quoting Azstagecoach (Thread starter):
DL ranked last, UA was second-last

According to the link that TVNWZ posted DL comes in second to last with a 59 while UA came in last with a 56 so the OP was wrong. In fact DL has ranked above UA every year since 1999, tied them in 1998, and onlyhad one year below UA in 1996. Nothing spectacular to be proud of but please don't post misinformation.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 11):
Here is the complete survey.

http://www.theacsi.org/index.php?opt...ontent&task=view&id=171&Itemid=170

The survey encompasses many businesses, is released quarterly, and its methodology is above reproach by one of the best busienss schools in the country.

UM does have a great B school and does do a good job with surveys. My beef was more with the OP giving out erroneous and unsourced information regardless of the airline affected.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
EIPremier
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 12:33 am

So basically, WN had a 76, "Other Airlines" 75, Continental 69, NW, AA, US, DL all clustered between 59 and 61, and then UA at 56. Funny how "other airlines" is second highest performing group. I guess this would include Fl, F9, AS, B6 among others. I take most surveys with a grain of salt, but it does seem to support the idea that people are more satisfied with LCCs.
 
GlobalATL
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 12:51 am

Does anybody really believe polls anyway?

Stop believing in what others have to say and start thinking on your own, people.
I care more about what first hand experiences that I've felt and had over the years and believe to be the truth in my own mind rather than some university poll; and I'm a Michigander.

Didn't I hear from Jim Whitehurst say that DL has ranked 2nd in Customer Satisfaction and in On-Time rankings from the last webcast??
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skibum9
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 1:01 am

Quoting Delta787 (Reply 1):
The amount of people sampled really doesnt matter much. What matters is the demographics you sample.

To be more specific, it is how the customer segments are defined within the results. For instance, if this is a broad study, not taking in account customer segment (i.e. young travelers, business travelers, occassional travelers, etc.) UA and DL may have come in last. But that may not be important as the broad market is NOT who those airlines target. A more relevant study would reveal rankings based on customer segment. So for instance DL and UA may, and probably are, ranked higher with business travelers, than WN. So this study is bogus because it is comparing apples to oranges. WN goes after a different market than DL and UA.
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727LOVER
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 1:34 am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18661797/

If I am reading this right, isn't DL 2nd to last and UA last?
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UAL777UK
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 18):
If I am reading this right, isn't DL 2nd to last and UA last?

Your reading it right.
 
codc10
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 10):

Nothing against WN or any other airline but it is a sad state of affairs when we consider an airline with a B- average as the best airline in the nation. It just shows how little we expect of the airlines.

Not necessarily. It just shows that we have indicated to the airlines that low fares are the primary driver of our decision to fly one carrier over another. For major airlines, and the cost structures associated with them, margins have been reduced to razor-thin on many routes, which often translates into a very high breakeven load factor. This means airlines need to be flying fuller planes in order to make money (revenue over yield), which puts strain on a system. 80-85% systemwide load factors have become the norm in a system that is optimized for 60-70% load factors. Customers will naturally feel the pinch, but this is an operational reality in this day and age.

I would say few people consider Southwest the 'best' airline in the nation. Southwest is consistent, friendly, and good value for the money, but most majors have Southwest beat in terms of quality. Regardless, they continue to be ranked high because they deliver exactly what they promise, over and over, which is a proven recipe for success.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 17):
To be more specific, it is how the customer segments are defined within the results. For instance, if this is a broad study, not taking in account customer segment (i.e. young travelers, business travelers, occassional travelers, etc.) UA and DL may have come in last. But that may not be important as the broad market is NOT who those airlines target. A more relevant study would reveal rankings based on customer segment. So for instance DL and UA may, and probably are, ranked higher with business travelers, than WN. So this study is bogus because it is comparing apples to oranges. WN goes after a different market than DL and UA.

Bogus is not correct. The study, if it is done like other industries they have researched that I am familiar with, does segment down as you describe. Those results are just not made available right now. These would be the overall results, and if you are involved in mass transit, you would still want the highest overall rating possible. Everybody traveling from Point A to Point B, that you serve, is a potential customer. You may target a specific demographic, but you do not want to be deficient in any category. If you are low overall, you probably are not scoring very high on any category. Correspondingly, if you are high, you probably are doing well in demographics you are not targeting--and happily selling tickets to those folks.
 
EA772LR
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 2:28 am

"Nothing against WN or any other airline but it is a sad state of affairs when we consider an airline with a B- average as the best airline in the nation. It just shows how little we expect of the airlines."

precisely. unless you're a first class or business class passenger, service just sucks on American domestic airlines. I have BY FAR had the best experience as a non-first/non-business class pax on Asian carriers-JAL, CA, CX, etc. The asian carriers just seem to care more about the passenger as a whole than the american carriers.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
IADCA
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting Rampart (Reply 2):
A good demographic cross section is important, but the larger your sample, the more reliable the study. A large sample has a greater opportunity of arriving at a demographic cross section.

Not necessarily. If you have a selection bias, making your sample larger actually makes it worse. The most famous historical example of this is the Literary Digest poll of the Roosevelt-Landon presidential election, which was done based on telephone and automobile ownership records, and thus heavily Republican-biased (in the Depression), cars and phones were toys of the wealthy. The huge sample size of the poll reduced the confidence intervals and margins of error on the poll to tiny bands (1 percent or so), but the poll was still off by 20 percent because of a bad sample.

http://www.theacsi.org/index.php?opt...k=view&id=46&Itemid=43#how_is_data is the FAQ section, which details the selection mechanisms for the sample. Here's the text, for those not wanting to go to the link:

Customers of all companies (and some federal agency customer segments) are selected from national and regional probability samples by screening a randomly chosen adult (age 18 to 84 for private sector companies) in each telephone household. The respondent is asked questions about the purchase and use of specific products and services purchased within specified, recent time periods (these periods vary according to the product or service). Those who qualify as respondents are then asked from which company or which brand they have purchased and responses to the ACSI survey quetions are coded as a customer interview for that company. The ACSI for each company is based on a sample of 250 customer interviews with more than 65,000 interviews conducted annually.

One thing I noticed about the sample is that it doesn't seem to break anything down by fare class for airlines. My guess is that "other carriers" consists of international carriers mainly, and that a lot of US residents flying on those are flying in F/C, and therefore are more likely to have a good experience. As for the other scores, I'd have to see a breakdown of their class flying (and also the amount of their service that is on regional carriers, which might also affect the scores) to make any other guesses.
 
Evan767
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 3:47 am

Who cares, hopefully this will mean less customers flying Delta, therefore more seats for me! Seriously, who cares, it's not like these polls scare away customers. Delta's product is amazing, and their employees are even better. I don't know how they got at the bottom. Lost bags maybe?
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antoniemey
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 13):
80% = B- in every grading system I have seen before. 95=A, 85=B, 75=C, etc. with above those being a + and below those being a - therefore 80.2 and 80.7 equals a B-.

You've not been in a Nashville, TN high school, then. For some reason the grading scale there is 93-100 = A, 85-92 = B, 77-84 = C, and 70-76 = D... anything below 70 is an F... I can tell you that my GPA would have been a lot better in a school district with a "normal" 10 point grade scale.

Back on topic... it doesn't surprise me at all that WN is at the top, CO near the top, ETC... what does surprise me is that DL is so low.
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avconsultant
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 25):
what does surprise me is that DL is so low.

Are you serious? The survey factor's in EV, OH, & Freedom.

What percentage of DL domestic product is operated with connection carriers?
 
Lemurs
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 24):
Delta's product is amazing, and their employees are even better.

The survey results would suggest there are a number of people who have a different definition of "amazing" than you.

Remember folks, most people aren't aviation enthusiasts out there. They don't "root" for A or B, or DL versus CO. They just go from point A to B and try not to be miserable in the process. The survey shows that in general, the airlines fail to deliver on that second part. UA and DL just happen to be a bit worse than everyone else, and WN and CO a bit better. It's STILL not a good showing for the industry.
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Alitalia744
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 24):
Who cares, hopefully this will mean less customers flying Delta, therefore more seats for me! Seriously, who cares, it's not like these polls scare away customers. Delta's product is amazing, and their employees are even better. I don't know how they got at the bottom. Lost bags maybe?

Well, that logic won't keep DL out of BK for long.

Less customers and more seats for non-revs means DL isn't filling the planes...
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
rampart
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting IADCA (Reply 23):
Not necessarily. If you have a selection bias, making your sample larger actually makes it worse

Nor is there necessarily a selection bias. I can see you have some background in statistical methods in surveys, but the first attack of the half-educated is to fault the statistics and sample size. One could also have a reasonable demographic cross section with a population of 100. All things being equal, and without further information, I tend to trust the larger sample size and if I suspect a bias, I'll check it out. Already, you can pick out the critics with an agenda by the portion of the study they choose:

Quoting IADCA (Reply 23):
My guess is that "other carriers" consists of international carriers mainly, and that a lot of US residents flying on those are flying in F/C, and therefore are more likely to have a good experience.

What kind of assumption is that?? Other carriers could mean a lot of things. To reveal your bias, I know practically no one who regularly flies international in first class on a regular basis. The one time I flew business class on an international trip was because I received a complimentary upgrade for being bumped. Think about it. What percent of the plane is occupied by first class seats? If the survey focused on first/business class, then yes, there might be a slant that direction.

Another example...

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 17):
So for instance DL and UA may, and probably are, ranked higher with business travelers, than WN. So this study is bogus because it is comparing apples to oranges. WN goes after a different market than DL and UA.

In your opinion, not based on this survey in question. If you have another survey in mind, you could share it. But you make a broad assumption. When I lived out west and flew WN more often, the majority of passengers were business fliers, like me on occasion. WN may well be as satisfying to business fliers, and with UA's and DL's recent problems, that would not be surprising. Or not. But you could be as misinformed as I.

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 16):
Does anybody really believe polls anyway?
Stop believing in what others have to say and start thinking on your own, people.

A poll serves a purpose. It's an estimate of a population without having to go out and ask 300 million people. You can believe it or not, it's simply a sample of a population. If you want to go around doubting all surveys, you have a lot to suspect. General elections are a essentially a population survey, with less than 25% represented. TV ratings. Top 10 on the pop music charts. Favorite sports teams. Think for yourself, but also realize how similar you are to a population.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 13):
80% = B- in every grading system I have seen before. 95=A, 85=B, 75=C, etc. with above those being a + and below those being a - therefore 80.2 and 80.7 equals a B-.

If you are married to scholastic measurements, sure. Then again, some subjects (medicine, physics, microbiology) have average scores in the neighborhood of 50-60%, and an 80 would be the high score. Or look at other customer ratings. Consumer Reports frequently lists "very good" customer rankings in the 70s and 80s out of 100 points scales. People are justifiably picky!

-Rampart
 
777fan
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting Delta787 (Reply 1):
What matters is the demographics you sample.

Well, they didn't ask me but as a UA PE, I would be inclined to concur that UA's service has sucked as of late. Morale is pathetically low and it shows on every employee's face and in their demeanor. I hope they straighten up and fly right in a hurry because I fear that they're going to hemorrage customers in a hurry with no bank willing to bail them out.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 20):
I would say few people consider Southwest the 'best' airline in the nation.

Perhaps "least worst" is more appropriate!


777fan
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exFATboy
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 4:50 am

The reporting on the same survey in USA Today played up the fact that the airline industry average was slightly lower than the rating for the IRS.  biggrin 

I take these surveys with...well, more than a few grains of salt. I'm not sure how you can make meaningful comparisions across industries, or with government agencies.

I think that just comparing the airlines to each other can be of some use, but is there really any surprise here, other than NW not being dead last?
 
typhaerion
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 5:53 am

Although I know I am preaching to the choir on this one, In response to the comments attached to that USA Today Article:

I think that both sides are right. Even the most die hard aviation enthusiasts will readily admit that things are not the way they used to be. The state of service on the airlines has decreased tremendously over the last few years. However, as an airline employee, I see our side of it too. What do you expect when there areso many of us out here trying to cart around a finite number of passengers. We can only do so much with fierce competition and limited resources.

So on one hand I want to tell passengers that they need to be understanding and on the other hand as a passenger, I agree.


On a more airline specific note, I have flown Delta for a while now and had nothing but good experiences. In fact, I have had very few bad experiences on any airline, though I will freely admit that all of my flying has ben contained to FL, CO, DL, and WN. I think the trick is that if you come ready to work with the airlines, they are more then happy to work with you.
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IADCA
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting Rampart (Reply 29):
Quoting IADCA (Reply 23):
Not necessarily. If you have a selection bias, making your sample larger actually makes it worse

Nor is there necessarily a selection bias. I can see you have some background in statistical methods in surveys, but the first attack of the half-educated is to fault the statistics and sample size. One could also have a reasonable demographic cross section with a population of 100. All things being equal, and without further information, I tend to trust the larger sample size and if I suspect a bias, I'll check it out. Already, you can pick out the critics with an agenda by the portion of the study they choose:

I'd agree with that assessment. Looking at the sample size and methods, it looked okay to me, but it doesn't give a real good breakdown of the subsamples (F/C/Y), etc. That's really my only complaint with it, and so yeah, I do think it's probably a decent sample.

Quoting Rampart (Reply 29):
Quoting IADCA (Reply 23):
My guess is that "other carriers" consists of international carriers mainly, and that a lot of US residents flying on those are flying in F/C, and therefore are more likely to have a good experience.

What kind of assumption is that?? Other carriers could mean a lot of things. To reveal your bias, I know practically no one who regularly flies international in first class on a regular basis. The one time I flew business class on an international trip was because I received a complimentary upgrade for being bumped. Think about it. What percent of the plane is occupied by first class seats? If the survey focused on first/business class, then yes, there might be a slant that direction.

Sorry, the F/C was meant almost as an aside, so maybe I should have put it in parentheses. And yes, it is a bit of personal bias; I live in the DC area and dislike UA's international coach product, so I almost always fly BA or AF to Europe; I don't do much other international flying. I guess my assumption is more that many other Americans flying internationally prefer the coach product on foreign airlines to US carriers, and therefore are likely to rate them favorably. Sorry, that sentence was very poorly written for the point I was trying to get across. As for the rest of the rankings, I have no real experience that would add anything, so I left my opinions off...

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 26):
Are you serious? The survey factor's in EV, OH, & Freedom.

Sorry, I don't mean to prod too much, but could you find anywhere it explicitly says which carriers get lumped in to the mainline ratings? I assume it would happen naturally as most of the flying public doesn't know the difference between DL and Delta Connection, but is there anywhere it says it?


As for the overall rankings, what I think should worry DL and UA people more than their raw scores is the change over the last year. Those are both pretty big drops.
 
rampart
Posts: 1798
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting IADCA (Reply 33):

Understood, IADCA, and thanks for the clarification. I don't fly that much international myself, only enough to get a taste of it about once a year and occasionally on a non-US airline. In those cases it was almost always business (in my line of business), and I didn't pay for it out of my own pocket, all the more reason why coach was necessary, and often times I was required to use a US airline. I suspect my experience and frequency is comparable to a good number of customers.

-Rampart
 
jbernie
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:09 am

RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 6:55 am

When it comes to surveys, I would love to be able to see one which only relates to issues within the Airlines control. I would presume (right or wrong) that a survey like this is more one about the total experience with the airline which can bring mixed results.

Question about WN and their results and apparently continuing good results. Given they have always been a low cost carrier with no frills, are they more likely to get a bette result than the "full service" carriers who have been gradually reducing the "service" they provide in their efforts to save money/stay in business?

Not knocking any airline and I don't work in aviation, but from the customer service side of things, if you only offer a seat on a plane that is reliable time wise it is hard for them to take anythng away, leaving only poor service (ie rude staff), dirty cabins or delays as major points of issues.

For UA and CO etc who used to offer the works, but now only offer a bag of peanuts and other cost savings, do their passengers miss the old days and therefore do not rate the airline so high because of what they feel they are missing as opposed to what they are getting? ie long time flyer remembers the good ole days, has a flight, is on time, polite service, smooth flight etc etc, but because it isn't like it was the rating score is automatically lower.

Working in a job that requires lots of customer service you find some people can be pleased with almost no effort, some expect quality service every time (no unrealistic), some you can never please and others have unrealistic demands that can never be met.
 
DCrawley
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:18 am

RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 6:59 am

"Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that."

-Homer Simpson

 Wink
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 7:33 am

Posting a thread with inaccurate information is inexcusable, esp. in the title. The thread should be deleted as a lesson to other posters to make sure they post accurate information.

As usual, the network carriers take the beating in surveys like this. Why? because they provide a more complex service than low fare carriers. As usual, everyone fails to remember that network carriers serve tens of thousands of O&Ds that LFCs cannot and will not serve, much of it requiring connecting flights that are prone to service problems.

More importantly, I have yet to read one article that says that one of the primary causes for the fall in customer service statistics is because of the British terrorist threat in August that sent the number of checked bags soaring.

There is a strong correlation between the score on this survey and the number of baggage reports.

I personally don't think the survey is very accurate if one statistic - regardless of whether it is favorable or not - has a strong influence on the overall score assigned by the survey. There are many people, me included, who do not check luggage unless absolutely necessary (and I can be gone for 2 weeks on int'l trips without checking luggage) and therefore do not factor baggage problems into my perception of airline quality.

Some airlines have acknowledged the problem with checked luggage and are working to change their


Above all else, ACCURATELY QUOTE INFORMATION and appropriately cite sources. If you can't be bothered to read the data, don't be so quick to post articles about the subject.
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:52 am

RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 28):
Who cares, hopefully this will mean less customers flying Delta, therefore more seats for me! Seriously, who cares, it's not like these polls scare away customers. Delta's product is amazing, and their employees are even better. I don't know how they got at the bottom. Lost bags maybe?

Well, that logic won't keep DL out of BK for long.

Don't worry I was joking. That's why I said the word, "Seriously". I was trying to get my point across of, "Who Cares?"
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
Lemurs
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 am

Am I the only one here who's surprised and impressed that WorldTraveler commented on this thread to condemn the results entirely, while defending Delta, without ever actually saying he was defending Delta? It really takes some verbal gymnastics to pull that off. Bravo.

The fact is, lost baggage has a large correlation on the results because it is one of the worst experiences for the average traveler right now. The customer service is minimal, the compensation paltry or non-existent, and unlike weather, even rational people know it's the fault of the airline at the end of day. Two of the absolute worst experiences you can have as a traveler are IDB (involuntarily denied boarding) and lost luggage, because both materially impact your travel for significant periods of time beyond delays. Soft services are less likely to drive strong negative reactions unless they become unbearable and unfixable for long periods of time.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 8:25 am

I'm not defending DL. But I can't stand to see facts used incorrectly. You might not like the conclusions I come to but I at least quote the facts correctly. If people can't even bother to read the data or correctly quote the facts, then what they have to see should be removed as nothing more than gossip.

As for Delta specifically, I didn't say as much as I could have but since you commented, I'll say more.

DL took the step of taking over baggage handling for its regional carriers at its largest hub - a costly step and just one indication of how serious it is about getting baggage performance back on track. DL also invoked clauses in its regional carrier contracts to withhold payment of bonuses to regional carriers whose operational performance was poor - which has a direct correlation to baggage performance.

But Delta isn't the only airline that is doing something about the baggage problems caused by the terrorist threat in London. And your failure to admit that incident has had a profound impact on the amount of checked baggage, with a result in the number of lost bags, demonstrates that you are not prepared to discuss the issue. I didn't slam any airline nor did I excuse any airline for its performance.

And I still assert from a statistical standpoint that if one variable in a formula has such a large impact on the total outcome, the model is probably too simple or is not accurate. There are far more variables that matter in travel.. .and for me baggage handling is a non issue. It is relevant for alot of people and should be properly conveyed as appropriate information to those people for whom it is relevant.
 
Halcyon
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 9:35 am

I'd certainly agree that Delta is last (But tied with UA.). I also think that WN is very high up there for being the best, but I am sad that Delta is going so strongly for the "We're putting MOVIE SCREENS in your seat people!" approach to make up for it.

If they did not notice, WN is first and they don't get that way by adding things like movie screens. Although they are two different types of carriers, Delta could be so much better if they really cared about the customer. They could learn something about CS from WN.
 
apodino
Posts: 3030
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RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 10:26 am

One thing I found interesting is that the three worst airlines on the study were UA, DL, and AA. The best ones were WN, CO, NW, and US.

A related article made by an investment firm stated that that in order to create demand, you have to give the passengers something they want. Given that the airlines have gotten to the point of not treating passengers well, and they have this reputation, people don't want to fly anymore. This has airlines chasing seats, and its driving the revenue down. Shrinking the way to profitability is not the answer. Never has been. Unfortunately wall street doesn't think that way, and its been more about pleasing wall street than profits.
 
VictorKilo
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:39 am

RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 10:37 am

This survey helps to build a case that WN has a competitive advantage over AA, UA, DL, NW, and US because of its ability to keep its customers more satisfied than these airlines. Also of note is that WN does not have such an advantage against "other airlines" - which include a bucket of other LCC carriers.

I think this has implications for WN's future growth. I think you will see WN enter large O&D markets currently served by these five carriers, but not CO or the LCC's, over routes with existing LCC competition. Consistent with the last three new stations opened by WN (SFO, IAD, DEN) being major hubs of other airlines, I think you are more likely to see WN enter MSP, launching with nine or ten MSP-MDW flights per day, than you are to see WN enter a market like ROC and compete with FL on ROC-MCO.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 12:03 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 37):
As usual, the network carriers take the beating in surveys like this. Why? because they provide a more complex service than low fare carriers. As usual, everyone fails to remember that network carriers serve tens of thousands of O&Ds that LFCs cannot and will not serve, much of it requiring connecting flights that are prone to service problems.

Yes, the network carriers do provide a more complex product. However, much of the complexity is there own making. No one forces the network carriers to whore their product out to as many as sub-par regionals as possible? No one forces the network carriers to over-schedule their facilities? And quite honestly, if the complexity of offering so many O+D pairings is too much for the network carriers, then maybe they should cut back on some of those markets.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 40):
DL took the step of taking over baggage handling for its regional carriers at its largest hub - a costly step and just one indication of how serious it is about getting baggage performance back on track. DL also invoked clauses in its regional carrier contracts to withhold payment of bonuses to regional carriers whose operational performance was poor - which has a direct correlation to baggage performance.



And while these are good steps for DL to take, they point to another problem with many of the network carriers: they are always in a reactive mode. Instead of addressing problems BEFORE they happen, the airlines wait until the problem festers and boils over. How many years has ASA underperformed and DL has tolerated it?

This reactive behavior is a major part of why so many legacies have found themselves in CH11.
 
sccutler
Posts: 5581
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 12:23 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 17):
So for instance DL and UA may, and probably are, ranked higher with business travelers, than WN. So this study is bogus because it is comparing apples to oranges. WN goes after a different market than DL and UA.

Well, WN does not have a first-class cabin... but if you are contending Southwest does not cater to business travelers, you are most confused. Business travelers are the "bread and butter" for Southwest, and Southwest's fare pricing (especially for walk-up fares) and the non-forfeiture of fare money for itinerary changes make their product a big hit with serious business travelers.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Ctermua
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:22 am

RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 12:25 pm

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 39):
The fact is, lost baggage has a large correlation on the results because it is one of the worst experiences for the average traveler right now. The customer service is minimal, the compensation paltry or non-existent, and unlike weather, even rational people know it's the fault of the airline at the end of day. Two of the absolute worst experiences you can have as a traveler are IDB (involuntarily denied boarding) and lost luggage, because both materially impact your travel for significant periods of time beyond delays. Soft services are less likely to drive strong negative reactions unless they become unbearable and unfixable for long periods of time.

I'd have to disagree with that assumption, at least as it relates to United. United is fairly good on the baggage front..and very good on the IDB front. What they fail at miserably is managing thier employees. As one Premier Exec said here, employee morale is at an all time low. Out of touch management, from top to bottom, low morale and a never ending series of ORD atc delays will wipe the smile off even the most loyal and hard working employee. THAT is what the customer sees, and thus reacts to...in my opinion.
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 1:22 pm

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 45):
Business travelers are the "bread and butter" for Southwest, and Southwest's fare pricing (especially for walk-up fares) and the non-forfeiture of fare money for itinerary changes make their product a big hit with serious business travelers.

Yep you have a point. Try doing a day before flight with UA and the majors and a you have exhorbidant pricing and a seat basically in the middle of the lav. Flying last minute with UA and the like is an absolute nightmare. With WN on the other hand, a day in advance is no problem, fully refundable and you're almost guaranteed a great seat. What's not to like.

The worst thing in aviation today is the airports! Security, parking miles from the terminal, rental cars so far away. Gosh how I miss the pre 911 days...

iwok
 
azstagecoach
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:55 pm

RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Wed May 16, 2007 3:36 pm

I see that I switched the last and second-to-last airlines in the OP. Apologies all around. No offense intended. Perhaps the mod could fix the title?
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: WN First, DL Last In Cust Satisfaction Survey

Thu May 17, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 20):
but most majors have Southwest beat in terms of qualit

Please cite some areas...Most majors have less legroom, less frequent flights, less nonstop point to point flights. I actually was scheduled to take a YX flight from MCO to MCI, but about 3 weeks prior to the trip, YX cancelled my nonstop flight and routed me to MCI via MKE...putting me at MCI close to midnight (originally scheduled in a about 8 p.m.). Checked Southwest for returns...they had an internet special fare on their nonstop. I booked the SWA flight. I didn't get the inflight meal, I didn't get the two by two seat...but I got a nonstop flight home that put me home at a much more decent hour. IMHO - THAT is quality service.