b52murph
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:02 pm

TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Wed May 16, 2007 12:15 pm

I recently spent some time brousing http://www.departedflights.com/TW043072intro.html and was pleasently surprised to see TW with a routing network over the pacific and to Asia; something I don't think they had very long. Does anybody know how long this existed? Did it last until the 1980s?

Another oddity....several very-long-term flight numbers were in existance then; the LAX-LHR nonstop was TW 760; the BOS-LHR nonstop was 754 and LHR-BOS was 753...754/753 were the same flights I took on TW BOS-LHR-BOS in April 1990 (18 years later!) Flt 760 was still in existance LAX-LHR in my 1990 TW Timetable as well. Does anybody know if those flight numbers stayed the same the entire time the route was in existance?

Also...notice the BOS-LAX nonstop 747. Don't think that lasted long....
 
Cody
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Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 12:16 pm

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Wed May 16, 2007 12:57 pm

The Pacific routes were gone way prior to 1980. I think they lasted from 1968 until 1972. I may be a little off, but they were certainly gone by 1980. Interestingly, Morroco and the Azores were served until around 1979.
 
eyes2thesky
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:15 am

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Wed May 16, 2007 1:03 pm

Some well known aviation author, I think it was Barry Schiff, has written about crewing round-the-world routes on TWA 707s. Could also have been Robert Buck.
AA,AL,B6,CO,C5,C8,DA,DL,FI,F9,HP,LH,MQ,NW,OO,TZ,UA,US,WN,XJ,YV,ZW,VX
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18987
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Wed May 16, 2007 1:10 pm

I believe TW's Pacific service lasted 6 years,from 1969 to 1975. Those routes made TW an Around-the-World carrier as their Pacific routes ended at BOM which they'd been serving via Europe since the 1950s. At the peak of TW's Pacific service, they were serving OKA, GUM, TPE, HKG and BKK en route to BOM. All flights originated in LAX and stopped in HNL. I believe all flights also stopped in GUM and some then went nonstop to HKG and others made two more stops in OKA and TPE.

The Pacific routes were operated by the 707 and I believe were consistently unprofitable, probably partly because they lacked service to Japan (apart from Okinawa), and by the time they pulled out of the Pacific many of their competitors were operating the B747. And TW's routing via HNL and GUM to HKG/BKK etc. was about 1000 miles further than the North Pacific routing via Tokyo operated by PA/JL/NW etc. which was much closer to a Great Circle routing.

TW's suspension of their Pacific routes was part of a deal with Pan Am which gave TW a few additional points in Europe previously served by PA.

Coincidentally, TW's Pacific service almost coincided with AA's similarly brief service to the South Pacific (Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, American Samoa) which lasted from 1970 to 1975. AA also dropped those routes as part of a deal with PA which gave AA a few more points in the Caribbean previously served by PA.

Someone more directly involved with TW at the time can probably add to or correct my info above. If you do a search you may also find other relevant info as I recall previous threads on TW's Pacific operations.

[Edited 2007-05-16 06:15:20]
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1976
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Wed May 16, 2007 11:14 pm

Here is some cool information that should help. It's a link displaying TWA timetables dating back to 1935!
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
SkyyMaster
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:34 am

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Wed May 16, 2007 11:24 pm

My brother started his airline career with TWA back in 1969. He recalls the trans-Pacific routes were indeed always a drain on profits and maintained solely for the bragging rights of being an around-the-world airline, ala Pan Am. I think the 69-75 timing was about right without digging through my timetables.
 
OceansWorld
Posts: 828
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:00 am

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Wed May 16, 2007 11:38 pm

TWA started trans-Pacific flights August 1st, 1969. Round-the-world flights followed on October 31, 1971, but finally, all these Pacific flights ended on March 2nd, 1975 following the agreement concluded with Pan Am October 16th, 1974 for a "route standardization" due to over-capacity.
 
DBCooper
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:51 am

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Wed May 16, 2007 11:44 pm

Actually, there were 2 daily flights from California to HKG (and beyond).

1 operated SFO-LAX-HNL-GUM-HKG
The other operated SFO-LAX-HNL-GUM-OKA-TPE-HKG

Yes, both originated in SFO and not LAX. I used to take the SFO-LAX leg quite frequently.

Transpac services were operated with 707-331 aircraft. I don't recall ever seeing a RR powered 707 on these flights.


- DBC
 
OceansWorld
Posts: 828
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:00 am

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Wed May 16, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting DBCooper (Reply 7):
I don't recall ever seeing a RR powered 707 on these flights.

Neither PA nor TW ever flew any B707-400s.
 
Avatordon
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:33 pm

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Thu May 17, 2007 12:01 am

IIRC the HKG flights actually went through and terminated in BKK where the BOM flight also terminated - I could be wrong, but it struck me as odd that BKK was the terminus rather than HKG at the time - if anyone has correct inf, would appreciate it.
 
Motorhussy
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Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Thu May 17, 2007 10:56 am

Well, here's a couple of nice old 'classic' shots from Aotearoa/New Zealand in the South Pacific:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Colin Hunter
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Colin Hunter



Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Thu May 17, 2007 1:56 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
Those routes made TW an Around-the-World carrier



Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 5):
the trans-Pacific routes were indeed always a drain on profits and maintained solely for the bragging rights of being an around-the-world airline, ala Pan Am.

The pissing match between Pan Am and TWA was legendary.....and now they are both gone.
More than just coincidence.

Sometimes I think they should have been forced to merge back in the 1950's, or at least by the 1960's...but the collective egos of both carriers would have never allowed it.
Things like TWA wanting to an "Around-The-World" carrier, although abandoned in the mid-70s, and numerous PanAm indiscretions, (like acquiring National) while not producing an immediate effect, piled on, leading to their eventual ends.

Quoting Cody (Reply 1):
Interestingly, Morroco and the Azores were served until around 1979.

And before that; Algiers, Tripoli, Tunis, Nairobi, Dhahran, Entebbe, and Dar Es Salaam!
Delete this User
 
DBCooper
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:51 am

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Fri May 18, 2007 9:59 am

My bad - I didn't mean that TW operated 707-400s but rather they operated some of their early 707-331s with the original "organ pipe" turbojet engines (N761-N769TW). These were used only as a last resort on Trans-Pac services.

The flight numbers were TW742/743/744/745. They originated in SFO and terminated in JFK - almost an around-the-world flight.

I don't recall the itineraries west of BKK...I'm sure someone else could look this up. Over the years I used these flights to get to HNL, GUM and HKG (always avoiding the GUM-OKA-TPE-HKG stopping service to get to/from HKG).


- DBC
 
Klima
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:18 am

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Fri May 18, 2007 10:44 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 11):
And before that; Algiers, Tripoli, Tunis, Nairobi, Dhahran, Entebbe, and Dar Es Salaam!

The Nairobi one really stuck out a map from the 70's. It looked like the served it from Athens. Interesting.

I believe TWA's flight to Saudia Arabia was through Cairo, correct? Was the Saudia Arabia flight profitable? It looks like they served it right up to the end almost.
 
WingsLAX
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 7:02 am

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Fri May 18, 2007 11:12 am

the flight numbers were TW742/743/744/745. They originated in SFO and terminated in JFK - almost an around-the-world flight.

I don't recall the itineraries west of BKK...I'm sure someone else could look this up. Over the years I used these flights to get to HNL, GUM and HKG (always avoiding the GUM-OKA-TPE-HKG stopping service to get to/from HKG).

Quoting DBCooper (Reply 12):

After BKK the routing was; CMB-BOM-ATH-ZUR-JFK.
A/C Flown: A332,333,345,319,320,321,DC6,7,880,707,720,DC8,9,747,742,744,DC10,MD11,L1011,737,772,BAC111,727,747SP,762,763
 
tbear815
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RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Fri May 18, 2007 11:13 am

IIRC, TW operated a 747 service from STL to HNL at one point. This was after the closure of the Trans-Pacific routes operated by the 707 puddle jumpers from HNL to HKG. I think the STL/HNL service closed out the Pacific operations for TW. Maybe they used the L10's, but I always thought they were 747s.
 
b52murph
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: TWA Pacific Services And Other Oddities

Fri May 18, 2007 11:34 am

Quoting Tbear815 (Reply 15):
IIRC, TW operated a 747 service from STL to HNL at one point. This was after the closure of the Trans-Pacific routes operated by the 707 puddle jumpers from HNL to HKG. I think the STL/HNL service closed out the Pacific operations for TW. Maybe they used the L10's, but I always thought they were 747s.

As of my May '90 timetable--the only one I have--TW did operate a non-stop STL-HNL; as best I can tell on Tues, Wed, and Sunday, it originated in JFK as BOTH Flight 1 and Flight 79 with a stop; on Mon, Thurs, Fri, Sat in originated in LGA as flight 177 and flight 1, changing aircraft (but not flight numbers) in STL for HNL. Timetable doesn't specify aircraft type--that sounds much more like a 762 or L10 flight, though, than a 747. Can't imagine that capacity would dictate a B747 from STL-HNL.

As for the flight numbers, (second part of my original post), doing the comparison came up with many others that had stayed on the same route from 1974 to 1990--mostly JFK/BOS/LAX to Europe and return.