LY777
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Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 9:53 pm

I was wondering why the 757 was not popular with European national carriers? I mean, AFAIK only BA and IB fly them! why?
ps: I am not talking about charter airlines
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
jamesjimlb
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 9:58 pm

i don't know but a very good question i'll do some research and try to get an answer.
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YULYMX
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 10:10 pm

Would guess: Europe is smaller than North America no need for a 5-6 hours flight type of plane carring 180 pax like we use in the USA-

A320 and B737 was enough to deliver the need?

My 2 cents

[Edited 2007-05-17 15:11:31]
 
columba
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I was wondering why the 757 was not popular with European national carriers? I mean, AFAIK only BA and IB fly them! why?
ps: I am not talking about charter airlines

Swissair, Sabena, KLM, LH and AF were using the A310 and hence had no need for the 757.
P.S.
Finnair is another 757 operator that has to be mentioned.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
LY777
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 10:20 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
Finnair is another 757 operator that has to be mentioned.

you are right
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
OceansWorld
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 2):
Would guess: Europe is smaller than North America no need for a 5-6 hours flight type of plane like we use in the USA-

A320 and B737 was enough to deliver the need?

Swissair used to fly from GVA and ZRH to LHR with A310-200s. Air France (6), KLM (10), Lufthansa (12), Sabena (2) were among the other regular European carriers operating the Airbus in Europe. Not to speak of the A300B4 operators. IIRC, IB was a late comer for the B757 while BA replaced its Tridents with it, and somehow filed a gap between the TriStars and the B737s.
 
Baexecutive
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 10:23 pm

Iberia, Icelandair and L'Avion are also operators of the B757 in Europe

Dunno if Greenlandair counts as its not geographically in Europe but they use the B757
 
MEA-707
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 10:26 pm

The typical US continental routes needed slightly bigger airplanes then the European networks. That's also a reason the 727 was so popular in the USA but not as much in Europe.
In the late 1970s when airlines started to think about their 1985-2000 fleets, the backbone of most European airlines seated around 110 pax; KLM, Swissair, Iberia, Alitalia, SAS (DC-9), Air France (Caravelle) , Lufthansa (737) etc while all the US airlines had aircraft seating around 160 as backbone, all had 727s, TWA and American also 707s, UAL and DL also DC-8s, all of which could be replaced by 757s.
In the meantime, frequency in the US also became more important, and both in Europa and the US the 737 and A-320 is the typical aircraft now for flights under 5 hours.
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CV580Freak
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 6):
Dunno if Greenlandair counts as its not geographically in Europe but they use the B757

Just about  Smile


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Greenland is the world's largest island. Formerly a province of Denmark, it gained the status of an autonomous Danish dependent territory with limited self-government as well as its own parliament in 1979.

DHL also operate about 34 B757F's
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rb211
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 10:50 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
was wondering why the 757 was not popular with European national carriers? I mean, AFAIK only BA and IB fly them! why?
ps: I am not talking about charter airlines

Funny I didn't really notice it until you brought it up. The 757 was supposed to be a replacement for the 727. BA ferried some of theirs over here to BFM (Mobile Aerospace Engineering) for freighter conversion to be delivered to DHL. I guess it's one of those unsolved mysteries like why is it all of a sudden that they're in demand again.
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 6):

Don't forget BA!
A318/19/20/21, A300, A332/3, A343/6, A388, L1011, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, B722, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9, B743/4/4M, B752/3, B762/3/4, B772/E/W, B788/9, F-100, CRJ-200/700/900, ERJ-135/145/175, DH-8, ATR-72, DO-328, BAE-146
 
OceansWorld
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 6):
Iberia



Quoting AA777223 (Reply 10):
Don't forget BA!



Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I mean, AFAIK only BA and IB fly them!

 wink 

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 6):
Dunno if Greenlandair counts as its not geographically in Europe but they use the B757

Nowadays named Air Greenland.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I was wondering why the 757 was not popular with European national carriers?

Do you mean when the aircraft was introduced back then in the '80s and that no other major European ordered it then, or in general ? Do you include cargo fleets in your question ?
 
6yjjk
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 2):
Would guess: Europe is smaller than North America no need for a 5-6 hours flight type of plane carring 180 pax

BA, Finnair, Iberia (and Icelandair, maybe) - interesting that these are all on the "edges" of Europe. I wondered whether somewhere more central might not have been able to use them economically without the long cross-Europe flights.

But BA use them on tiny intra-UK hops. Are they the exception that proves the rule?
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 11:21 pm

When the 757 was introduced in the mid-1980s (its primary mission was a 727-200 replacement), it did not gather much interest from European scheduled/flag carriers......European carriers replaced their early 727 and 72S aircraft with 737s and the then-new A320 by passing the 757. The Europeans airlines in most cases simply did not need a 200 seat aircraft with US transcontinental range. Its also important to note that the 757, one of the most amazing and versatile airplanes ever produced, sold quite slowly at the outset (BA and EA's launch orders were the only serious orders on Boeing's books for the type for many many years) and when the 757 did gain popularity, it was primarily a ""US thing"" with the majority of 757s being sold to US carriers.

As noted, BA was a large 757 operator and it continues to operate some newer build examples, IB has had a love/hate relationship with the 757.....it loves the versatility and economics of the type but it simply does not fit into IB's Airbus-focused fleet plans, etc. Many EU and UK charter carriers utilize the 757 due to its economics and versaility: its one of the few airplanes that a charter carrier can fly from Europe to the US or the Caribbean on one day of the week and then economically and effectively use on a flight to Mallora or the Canaries on another day of the week.

As mentoned above, several European airlines tried using larger A300s and A310s on intra-European routes....it did not work out very well for most of the airlines as the airlines realized that most high-demand segments need capacity AND frequency. Airlines like KLM, SAS, AF and Swissair quickly replaced most of their widebody intra-European services with smaller aircraft as soon as practical.

Often, there are posts that ask why neither Boeing or Airbus as building a direct successor to the A300/A310/762A/757.....here is the answer: on route up to 3000 miles, most airlines now prefer to offer more frequent service with smaller airplanes; thus, the more capable variants of the 737NG and A32X now fly many routes once flown by the 757 and other types mentioned. When the next generation narrow body airplanes are developed by B and A, we will likely see variants that can more directly replace the 757.
 
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 2):
Would guess: Europe is smaller than North America no need for a 5-6 hours flight type of plane carring 180 pax like we use in the USA-

So...if they don't needed the 757, why the A300/310 flying for Lufthansa, Alitalia, Air France, Iberia, Swissair, KLM, Austrian, Olympic..?
 
YULYMX
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 14):

Don't know? to fly to Morocco, Aleria, Spain?? more Cargo? to help Airbus in those days???
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Thu May 17, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 14):
So...if they don't needed the 757, why the A300/310 flying for Lufthansa, Alitalia, Air France, Iberia, Swissair, KLM, Austrian, Olympic..?

Because they already had the A300 and A310, they didn't need to add the 757 to their fleets.

I think also you have to remember the large amount of charter airlines who operate the 757 within Europe;

Air Finland
Airtours
Asturias
Belair
Condor
First Choice
Fly Globespan
LTU/LTE
Monarch
Thomas Cook
ThomsonFly
Zoom

etc, etc...


Dan Smile
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OceansWorld
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 14):
So...if they don't needed the 757, why the A300/310 flying for Lufthansa, Alitalia, Air France, Iberia, Swissair, KLM, Austrian, Olympic..?

Austrian got four A310-300 that were essentially used for long-haul flights as they were the airline's first widebody aircraft. They were used then on flight to JFK, NRT, CPH-ORD and perhaps JNB, but I'm not sure about that.

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 15):
Don't know? to fly to Morocco, Aleria, Spain?? more Cargo? to help Airbus in those days???

If you search in the data base, you'll find many pictures of major European airlines flying into LHR with A300s, A310s, DC-10s, B767s... Before EuroStar, the London-Paris line was the busiest in the world.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 16):
Air Finland
Airtours
Asturias
Belair
Condor
First Choice
Fly Globespan
LTU/LTE
Monarch
Thomas Cook
ThomsonFly
Zoom

Many of these are charter airlines, while LY777 asked for national airlines. The Zoom B757 is a member of the Canadian airline fleet.

Regards
 
LY777
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 11):
Do you mean when the aircraft was introduced back then in the '80s and that no other major European ordered it then, or in general ? Do you include cargo fleets in your question ?

I speak in general, and I don't include cargo fleet.

by the way, the 787 is having the same fate as the 757 concerning National European airlines. Only LOT has ordered the 787 so far!!!
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 18):
by the way, the 787 is having the same fate as the 757 concerning National European airlines.

I think that most agree that this situation will change in the coming years!!! In any case, the 787 is off to a far better start than the 757 had many years ago.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 17):
Many of these are charter airlines, while LY777 asked for national airlines. The Zoom B757 is a member of the Canadian airline fleet.

Yes, but with comments pointing out that the B757 may have not been ideally suited for European operations, it is worth qualifying that many airlines, whatever their orientation, do utilise it.



Dan Smile
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SkyyMaster
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
Finnair is another 757 operator that has to be mentioned.

Didn't/doesn't (not sure if they still have them) AY use their's mainly for charters? Seems lots of charter carriers in Europe like them, I do agree, most scheduled carriers opted for smaller a/c probably due to shorter stages.
 
columba
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 18):
by the way, the 787 is having the same fate as the 757 concerning National European airlines. Only LOT has ordered the 787 so far!!!

and like the 757 it has been ordered by many European charter airlines......
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
UpperDeck79
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 12:24 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
Finnair is another 757 operator that has to be mentioned.

Only Finnair Leisure Flights devision. Although, sometimes the scheduled division borrows one of them and sometimes the leisure division borrows an A32x from the scheduled one.
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LY777
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
Quoting LY777 (Reply 18):
by the way, the 787 is having the same fate as the 757 concerning National European airlines.

I think that most agree that this situation will change in the coming years!!!

Believe me, most National European carriers will choose the A350 over the 787: BA will be the next major customer for the A350
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 12:31 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 24):
Believe me, most National European carriers will choose the A350 over the 787: BA will be the next major customer for the A350

Sorry, but I dont believe you. Wait until Paris and get back to me.
 
JJJ
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting 6YJJK (Reply 12):
BA, Finnair, Iberia (and Icelandair, maybe) - interesting that these are all on the "edges" of Europe. I wondered whether somewhere more central might not have been able to use them economically without the long cross-Europe flights.

Actually IB mostly used them in the 'puente aéreo' MAD-BCN flights and rather short sectors like LHR.
 
icarus75
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
As mentoned above, several European airlines tried using larger A300s and A310s on intra-European routes....it did not work out very well for most of the airlines

Not completely true I think!
I've flown a lot on Air Inter between 1985 and the (sad) end of this airline that flown A300 (or may be A310).
I remember clearly remember that this aircrafts were used on business routes (MRS, TLS...) in the morning and evening and were full all the time!
As a student, I've flown every week-ends on ORY-PGF-ORY : the last flight on sunday evening was full all the time!
On leisure destinations in summer, same thing!
Flying is amazing!
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 27):

Not completely true I think!
I've flown a lot on Air Inter between 1985 and the (sad) end of this airline that flown A300 (or may be A310).
I remember clearly remember that this aircrafts were used on business routes (MRS, TLS...) in the morning and evening and were full all the time!
As a student, I've flown every week-ends on ORY-PGF-ORY : the last flight on sunday evening was full all the time!
On leisure destinations in summer, same thing!

France domestic services were very different back then.........no competition, pre high speed trains, etc. Air Inter even ordered A330-300s for their domestic services but those airplanes never went into service on these routes (went to SN and AerLingus).

In any case, widebody service on French domestic routes is a thing of the past.
 
Baexecutive
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 28):
France domestic services were very different back then

It was similar in the UK, BA used to fly the 757 and 767 on the GLA/LHR route
 
OceansWorld
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 28):
Air Inter even ordered A330-300s for their domestic services but those airplanes never went into service on these routes

That's not true.

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Bongodog1964
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 1:24 am

I realise that the thread start specifically stated "not talking about charter", but IMO here in the UK the widespread use of of the 757 by charter airlines sums up the reason.

The UK charter airlines had/have lots of routes ideally suited to the 757. Our love of holidaying in the Canary Islands, Cyprus, Greece etc, provided lots of 4 hour plus routes. Plus our position on the edge of Europe results in longer sector times to many European destinations.
 
boeingguy1
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 18):
Only LOT has ordered the 787 so far!!!

???
Surely this cant be true. I remember reading VS ordered some a few weeks ago. BA/LH are in talks with Boeing/Airbus on the 787/A350 resp.... so I'm not sure where you're coming from with this.
Gatwick South! Id rather crash in Brighton!
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 30):
That's not true.

Sorry, I did not state it correctly....meant to say the airplanes did not remain in service on those routes,etc.
 
LY777
Topic Author
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 25):
Quoting LY777 (Reply 24):
Believe me, most National European carriers will choose the A350 over the 787: BA will be the next major customer for the A350

Sorry, but I dont believe you. Wait until Paris and get back to me.

I hope you are right. I really would like to see the 787 in BA and AF/KLM colours!!!
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 1:58 am

I guess not much need for 3-6 hours flights unlike in N Am, which are the flight durations in which the 757 is ideally made for... With one notable exception : FI. And FI has the 757 as the workhorse of its fleet.
When I doubt... go running!
 
787EWR
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 18):
speak in general, and I don't include cargo fleet.

by the way, the 787 is having the same fate as the 757 concerning National European airlines. Only LOT has ordered the 787 so far!!!

I this this is a result of the cost of a new plane, a wait and see attitude, especially since the first 550 planes are already destined for someone else and of course, pressure from Airbus on EU political leaders to consider supporting their product(It happens for both Boeing and Airbus).
 
OceansWorld
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 33):
Sorry, I did not state it correctly....meant to say the airplanes did not remain in service on those routes,etc.

No trouble. They were ordered (5 + 15) when Air Inter was still the only or largest carrier serving France cities. But trend changed with competition, and frequency became more important than size. If I remember correctly, they were configured for Y415. Quite a jump after the airline's A300s with slightly more than Y300s.
 
RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carri

Fri May 18, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 14):
So...if they don't needed the 757, why the A300/310 flying for Lufthansa, Alitalia, Air France, Iberia, Swissair, KLM, Austrian, Olympic..?

Just wondering..(not stating as fact) is it cool to compare the 757 with the A300/310 family??? what I mean is that the later are wide bodies and seem to me have much higher capacity.....so I was wondering if is fair to analyze and compare these two..in other words maybe the European carriers just needed another type of plane and the 757 did not fit in...like the A310/300

Quoting LY777 (Reply 18):
by the way, the 787 is having the same fate as the 757 concerning National European airlines. Only LOT has ordered the 787 so far!!!

interesting point....we will have to see

Quoting LY777 (Reply 18):
I think that most agree that this situation will change in the coming years!!! In any case, the 787 is off to a far better start than the 757 had many years ago.

Which to be fair is a good point ..since the 787 is selling so well...(compared to the 757 which did not sell so well in Europe at the beginning)

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 21):
Seems lots of charter carriers in Europe like them,

maybe this is a function of the carriers history (i.e start up financial condition) and the actual price of the aircraft.....I would guestimate that 757's are on the cheap side (compared to a brand new plane that could do its function) so newer not as financially strong carriers might see it as a good start up solution...
then with the cash flow..go for the new 787 or A350

cheers
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
columba
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 38):
Just wondering..(not stating as fact) is it cool to compare the 757 with the A300/310 family???

The A300/A310 and 757/767-200/-300 were seen as direct competitioners.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 39):
The A300/A310 and 757/767-200/-300 were seen as direct competitioners.

if so, (again just curious not saying I am right) then Why would some (an airline) one want a 757 over an A310 when the A310 has much wider cross-section and presumably can haul more weight..(assuming price and operating costs are comparable which is what you are suggesting)???

cheers
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 40):

if so, (again just curious not saying I am right) then Why would some (an airline) one want a 757 over an A310 when the A310 has much wider cross-section and presumably can haul more weight..(assuming price and operating costs are comparable which is what you are suggesting)???

cheers

The initial versions of the 757, the 762A, and the A312 were all designed to carry about 200 passengers on segments of up to 3500 miles. Each type has various strengths and weaknesses: the 757 being a narrowbody and a smaller airplane has less weight and in most cases was cheaper to acquire; the 767A offered widebody accommodation and can haul more cargo; the A312 had much in common with the larger A300 (several airlines had A300/A310 fleets) and could take two LD3s side by side, etc., etc. Airlines made their choices based on their individual needs. Assuming operating costs and acquisition costs on all three types is the same is a bad assumption....the costs are different, and these costs greatly influenced which airline bought which type for which missions.

Also consider that the airlines lost interest in the 762A and A312 early on and the longer range and/or larger variants of both types (B762ER/763 and A300) sold in bigger numbers......US and European airlines realized that using large airplanes on short haul routes was not a great idea for their operations; especially since during this period airlines were reorganizing their route systems around hubs that required frequent flights on key routes. The exception, of course, is Asia, where airlines do use widebody aircraft on short to medium haul routes due to demand and customer preference.
 
OceansWorld
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 4:42 am

Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 40):
Why would some (an airline) one want a 757 over an A310 when the A310 has much wider cross-section and presumably can haul more weight..

Singapore has operated four A312s and four B752s side-by-side for a few years during the mid '80s, before ordering more Airbuses.
 
airbazar
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 4:59 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
I think that most agree that this situation will change in the coming years!!! In any case, the 787 is off to a far better start than the 757 had many years ago.

I'm not so sure that you will see many 787's operating with European colors. I think it will suffer the same fate in Europe that the 757 did. The 787 is coming out at a time when most European carriers don't need it, yet. Most already operate fairly new A330/340/777 fleets and by the time they need replacing, there may be something better than the 787. They also don't need the additional range that it offers. Payload and fleet commonality are far more valuable characteristics than range for the European carriers. They don't need an 8,000mi range airplane. From Europe you can cover the whole World (minus Oceania) with a 6,500nm range aircraft.
 
RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carri

Fri May 18, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 43):
They don't need an 8,000mi range airplane. From Europe you can cover the whole World (minus Oceania) with a 6,500nm range aircraft.

I had never thought about that ...in other words....you are suggesting that Europe has a particular strategic location which means its carriers might not benefit as much from the strengths presented by the the 787.....very interesting indeed...

Sorry to side track....I know the thread is about the 757 ...but your comment was very interesting indeed because I had never thought about generalized airline needs and trends (for a large region) as dictated and seen from the point of view of location relative to another...

in other words....duh..the world is NOT symmetric from the point of view of an airline....thus every one will have different requirements even though their business model might be identical...

I know it sounds obvious but in some ways it is not.
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 42):
Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 40):Why would some (an airline) one want a 757 over an A310 when the A310 has much wider cross-section and presumably can haul more weight..
Singapore has operated four A312s and four B752s side-by-side for a few years during the mid '80s, before ordering more Airbuses.

One can also mention AA who has the world's largest pax A300 fleet, in addition to the 752, 762ER and 763ER in large numbers.
When I doubt... go running!
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 43):
I'm not so sure that you will see many 787's operating with European colors. I think it will suffer the same fate in Europe that the 757 did. The 787 is coming out at a time when most European carriers don't need it, yet. Most already operate fairly new A330/340/777 fleets and by the time they need replacing, there may be something better than the 787. They also don't need the additional range that it offers. Payload and fleet commonality are far more valuable characteristics than range for the European carriers.

The 787 will be in production for many years to come........over the next ten years, European airlines will look to replace their 767s, A343s, early build A330s and even some early build 772s......so I think its safe to say that 787s will find homes with many airlines in Europe. With the operating costs offered by the 787, I cant imagine any airline not needing the type. As for range.....very rarely are airplanes used to their operational limits: airlines will happily purchase aircraft with additional range since its means increased operating flexibility. Dispatching a 787 on a 5500 mile route will be a pleasure......no need to worry about adverse winds, offloading cargo due to weight issues, etc. While its true that European carriers have little need for ULH airplanes, the 787's range will be a positive when it comes to sales, not a negative as you are suggesting.
 
RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 45):
One can also mention AA who has the world's largest pax A300 fleet, in addition to the 752, 762ER and 763ER in large numbers.

which to SOME extent proves a little bit my original point which is.......

These two aircraft A300/310 are NOT direct competitors of the 757....seeing that a single carrier operates both...
i.e. why would you have two different planes to do the same Job???...or in other words the each of these planes are NOT designated to do the same job....thus are not true competitors

I don't know...I am just toying this idea around
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
warren747sp
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 5:44 am

Did everyone forget Icelandic? who has almost an entire fleet of B752 and B753.
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747SP
 
brilondon
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 24):
Believe me, most National European carriers will choose the A350 over the 787: BA will be the next major customer for the A350

First I would like to say that I do believe that BA will not choose the A350 because of their need for a replacement for their B757 & B767 fleets need to be replaced before the A350 will be available. Secondly most of the National European airlines are owned (read funded) by the same governments who have invested in Airbus and thus would like to see a return on their investment.
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