LipeGIG
Topic Author
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TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 1:37 am

We use to discuss here about how slowly TAM has been in terms of international focus.

But during the last 6 months they decided to move quickly ! Last week during a presentation for their shareholders, due to a strong reduction on domestic operations yield (and the preview of more reductions ahead because of additional capacity added by competitors like Gol and new players like Ocean Air, WebJet and BRA) and the growth on international operations yield, TAM for the first time said that they will focus more on international flights.

They will obtain 5 widebodies (considering they keep 12 nowadays, a 43% increase on it's fleet) and also increase their frequencies on South American markets. The 5 planes will be 3 A330-200 and 2 A340-500, one of the A332 in fact is an early delivery from 2008 previous schedule.

This slide show to us their future plans for 2007-2011 period.



Looking for the B777, seems that they are negotiating with Boeing in order to get 2 more firm orders (IIRC they keep 4 option for the Boeing 777-300ER) by 2011, as well as 2 more Airbus (model not disclosure but probably A330-200) by 2009 (they keep a 6 A332 firm order, 2 for 2007, 2 for 2008, 2 for 2009 changed by 3 for 2007, 1 for 2008 and now seems to be 4 for 2009).

For the size of Brazilian market, 26 frames by 2011 is not a huge fleet but it's a strong development over 2005 numbers, where they run only 6 widebodies.

Also, TAM is looking for more partnerships and just announce full agreements with TP and LA. And surprising me and probably lots of people, it's just one day from announcing an agreement with United Airlines (UA) !
Today, in a ceremony in Rio, they begin the official airline of Brazilian National Soccer Team as well as the official airline for Brazilian Soccer Championship. Due to this, TAM charter flights will be arranged during this year in order to provide transport for the national squadron to the Americas Cup. So it's expected TAM planes visiting LIM, BOG and CCS (in this case even before the regular flights).

New Routes:
South America: MVD and CCS
US: GIG-MIA, GIG-Northeast-MIA (daylight), GRU-LAX
Europe: FRA (subject to obtain the required authorization from Brazilian ANAC), same for more services to LHR and CDG.

Does any one has any further info on the additional order for Boeing and Airbus ?

Note: I'd like to say a public thanks for Panam_DC10 for his kindly help on some info provided.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
tonytifao
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 1:58 am

Hey Felipe

Great news. When should we expect GRU-LAX? And what type of aircraft?

What about GIG-MIA?

Thanks,
Tony
 
vbeltraJJ
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 2:14 am

This flights to the USA may use the new A330 but, if FRA does not work well with ANAC, they should use them to LAX.
 
MAH4546
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sig

Fri May 18, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 1):

Great news. When should we expect GRU-LAX? And what type of aircraft?

From what I have heard it is not priority right now, and there is no timeline. I think it would be a waste, but that's just me.

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 1):
What about GIG-MIA?

December, along with MIA-FOR/REC/BEL daylight services (pending aircraft availability). At first, you will probably see MIA-GIG-MIA using one aircraft, so a redeye in one direction and daylight in the other. When more aircraft are available, you will see MIA-GIG as a redeye in both directions, with a daylight MIA-(XXX)-GIG service, with XXX rotating between FOR, REC, and BEL (or possibly others like NAT or BSB) depending on the day of the week.
a.
 
tonytifao
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 2:41 am

Can you guys explain me the MIA-FOR/REC/BEL?

Are they going to rotate, one day MIA-FOR, the next MIA-REC and MIA-BEL? Or this is a MIA-FOR-REC-BEL route?
 
MAH4546
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 4):
Can you guys explain me the MIA-FOR/REC/BEL?

Are they going to rotate, one day MIA-FOR, the next MIA-REC and MIA-BEL? Or this is a MIA-FOR-REC-BEL route?

Rotate. For example, MoWeFr might be MIA-FOR-GIG, TuTh MIA-BEL-GIG, and SaSu MIA-REC-GIG. This would also possibly mean that the daily MIA-MAO-BEL-FOR flight will re-route MIA-MAO-BSB. It's still to early to tell what exactly it will operate like, though.
a.
 
tonytifao
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 3:15 am

So all these flights will end up in GIG? Nice. I'm brazilian and I would love to visit the northeast of Brazil. Would this be operated using 332 or a 320 like MIA-MAO?

Anyone who works for TAM, does TAM plan to have features on their website such as choose seats and check flight schedules?

Thanks,
Tony
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
They will obtain 5 widebodies (considering they keep 12 nowadays, a 43% increase on it's fleet) and also increase their frequencies on South American markets. The 5 planes will be 3 A330-200 and 2 A340-500, one of the A332 in fact is an early delivery from 2008 previous schedule.

Correcting your info, JJ currently has 13 widebodie aircrats, 10 A332 & 3 MD-11.


TAM & UA???

I would never imagine such thing. Well, if they really plan to LAX to work UA code-share will definately help.
 
HALFA
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
And surprising me and probably lots of people, it's just one day from announcing an agreement with United Airlines (UA) !

Hello Felipe! Yes, that is really surprising! Might they replace Varig in the Star Alliance, or will it be some other type of marketing agreement? Does JJ still have a code-share agreement with AA?

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 1):
Great news. When should we expect GRU-LAX? And what type of aircraft?

More great news! I too am wondering when GRU-LAX will start.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
I think it would be a waste, but that's just me.

You've been saying that for years but RG had no problems filling an MD-11 to LAX, even after they stopped service to NRT. I would know as I flew that flight often. Fact remains there is currently NO nonstop service from the US West Coast to Brazil but whoever fills this void first will have a money maker. Fares right now from LAX/SFO to GIG/GRU are way over $1000.00. If JJ enters this market, they could charge even higher prices and still fill their plane if it meant not having to connect in DFW/ATL/MIA or NYC.

Thanks again for the update Felipe.
Aloha,
HALFA
HA J Class Lie flats, coming soon to a plane near you........
 
MAH4546
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting HALFA (Reply 8):

You've been saying that for years but RG had no problems filling an MD-11 to LAX, even after they stopped service to NRT. I would know as I flew that flight often.

Huge difference between filling a plane and making money. They filled the plane, but after the Japan tag-ons ended, LAX became a money loser for Varig. The market is not huge and low-yielding. I'd like to see TAM at Los Angeles, and I think they could fill an A330. I don't think it would be profitable.
a.
 
tonytifao
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 6:33 am

How many miles from GRU to LAX?
 
daron4000
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 7:16 am

Out of curiosity, how is this confirmed? Is the likelihood of a UA/Tam partnership that likely and if so, could you give any details.
 
jog
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sig

Fri May 18, 2007 8:47 am

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 11):
Out of curiosity, how is this confirmed? Is the likelihood of a UA/Tam partnership that likely and if so, could you give any details.

Just wait 24 hours for the confirmation. There will be an announcement (press conference?) by Marco Antonio Bologna (president of TAM) and Michael Whitaker (United Airlines) in Sao Paulo tomorrow (link).
 
daron4000
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 8:55 am

thanks- that's awesome!
 
trex8
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 9:04 am

A345 from where?? ACs planes??
 
MarioSPlane
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 9:06 am

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 10):
How many miles from GRU to LAX?

6.150 miles


Cheers
 
2wingtips
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 9:24 am

So, it looks like 2 further 77Ws are due in 2011 and the originally ordered 4 will all be in service by end of 2008.
I would have liked to see fleet projection beyond 2011, to see when TAM will be expecting their 1st A350s. I fully expect TAM to convert to the XWB, but maybe the 787 has some chance here?
 
NYC777
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 9:44 am

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 16):
So, it looks like 2 further 77Ws are due in 2011 and the originally ordered 4 will all be in service by end of 2008.
I would have liked to see fleet projection beyond 2011, to see when TAM will be expecting their 1st A350s. I fully expect TAM to convert to the XWB, but maybe the 787 has some chance here?

I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing is trying to persuade TAM to buy the 787s. TAM hasn't reaffirmed their A350 comitment and it has been almost 6 months since relaunch.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
AirSpare
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 2:50 pm

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 16):
I fully expect TAM to convert to the XWB



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 17):
TAM hasn't reaffirmed their A350

There has been total silence on this front. Trying to peak into the future from Felipe's graph provides no hints. The 777 order surprised all and throws some questions into the mix. I don't reacall, how many A350s do they have on order and does anyone recall when the deliveries were supposed to be made?

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 6):
I would love to visit the northeast

I have a homestead in Natal, you are always welcome to visit, we can take a flight on "Aero Bunda". You can have a 30 day pass on my "bus".  Smile

Quoting HALFA (Reply 8):
Does JJ still have a code-share agreement with AA?

Yes, out of Miami the code share works really well. I have been on a TAM flight that was a AA 772. Weird, I couldn't book the AA flight on line, but then the same aircraft labeled TAM on the ticket was less. (The least expensive I ever flew on TAM MIA-NAT was $USD 409, unrestricted, cattle class, r/t. But that was a few weeks after 9/11.) The prices between MIA and the Northeast are outrageous, I'm usually quoted about 2 grand, MIA-GRU-NAT (what a hassle).

TAM partnerships are starting to make me feel that TAM is the garota de programa of airlines
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 3:25 pm

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 18):
TAM partnerships are starting to make me feel that TAM is the garota de programa of airlines

LOL! That's even better than what I said in another thread.
 
OHLHD
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
same for more services to LHR and CDG.

Can someone confirm 2 daily flights GRU-CDG, one GIG-CDG and one REC-CDG. Or is the REC a stop between GRU - CDG?

Would it make more sense to have more destinations in Europe than increasing CDG or can´t they get more permission from ANAC for more EU fligths  Smile?
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 20):
Can someone confirm 2 daily flights GRU-CDG, one GIG-CDG and one REC-CDG. Or is the REC a stop between GRU - CDG?

Could be a REC-CDG, but the rumors are about a daylight CDG-GIG/GRU with stops in the Northeast (as well as a daylight GIG/GRU-CDG with stops in Northeast).

Guys, a big rumor is that, the partnership TAM vs United will become real because of... AA partnership with Tam is about to end... in six months. Now trying to confirm this......

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
tonytifao
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
Guys, a big rumor is that, the partnership TAM vs United will become real because of... AA partnership with Tam is about to end... in six months. Now trying to confirm this......

What?  Smile Nice going AA. How do I get to Belo now?

AA should partner with GOL then or start flying to CNF once again!
 
OHLHD
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Fri May 18, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
AA partnership with Tam is about to end... in six months. Now trying to confirm this......

How about other codeshares like AF or KL? Will those stay as they apperantly are having new agreements with Star Alliance members?  Smile

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
Could be a REC-CDG, but the rumors are about a daylight CDG-GIG/GRU with stops in the Northeast (as well as a daylight GIG/GRU-CDG with stops in Northeast).

How many CDG they have by now? Do they have 3 or 4 fligths a day?  Smile
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 12:26 am

Lipe, thanks for TAM's future fleet plans.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
also increase their frequencies on South American markets



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
ue to a strong reduction on domestic operations yield (and the preview of more reductions ahead because of additional capacity added by competitors like Gol and new players like Ocean Air, WebJet and BRA) and the growth on international operations yield,

Correct. TAM now reached a point where it would be difficult to operate further growth in the Brazilian market. Besides being the number one player and recent substantive capacity increase through the gradual replacement of F100 with A319/A320. As mentioned, yields in the domestic market are going down because of strong competition i.e. GOL and now BRA+OceanAir.

However, TAM's lowering yileds in the domestic market are because of TAM's own strategic mistakes:

a) the removal of business class in domestic routes. By its expansion drive TAM decided to operate Y only cabins in domestic flight, although there is C market in some selected routes such as BSB-GIG or GRU-MAO. In addition, TAM simplified its onboard service with one-choice sandwich. Both decisions made TAM offer a domestic service not very different than its competitor GOL, driving yileds lower. Both the (excessive) simplification of on-board service and the removal of C class in my view were mistakes and it is high time for TAM to "correct" its domestic product.

b) excessive concentration of flights on CGH. With all the problems and bottleneck of Brasil's civil aviation market, CGH became a "prolematic" airport, with frequent delays, which directly affected TAM operations and performance. If CGH closes down for 15min because of rain, the whole of TAM network is affected.

TAM strategy to route more than 50% of its flights via CGH is a gross mistake and is proving unsustainable. TAM should reasses its domestic network relying less in CGH and quicly boosting other connecting hubs such as BSB and GIG. CGH should not be a connecting airport. TAM route network needs a drastic change and other hubs should become more developed. There is no reason why a pax flying POA-REC has to connect in CGH! Connections in CGH are expensive and very incoveninent and TAM needs to quickly internalise this new facet of the market.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Also, TAM is looking for more partnerships and just announce full agreements with TP and LA. And surprising me and probably lots of people, it's just one day from announcing an agreement with United Airlines (UA)

I am also surprised with TAM ever-increasing bilateral alliances: LA in South America, TP (and perhaps LH) in Europe and UA in the US. This also supports the view that TAM will branch out to international markets more agressively. There is no doubt TAM needs to have more international partners and boost its mileage programme with more associate members. All in all, TAM now has partners in all corners: Sky, *A and OW...

Rgs,
 
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United787
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
And surprising me and probably lots of people, it's just one day from announcing an agreement with United Airlines (UA)

What will happen to their deal with RG?
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 25):
What will happen to their deal with RG?

RG is out of *A and now belongs to GOL.

Rgs,
 
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United787
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 2:19 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 26):
RG is out of *A and now belongs to GOL.

I realize RG is no longer in Star Alliance although being part of GOL has nothing to do with that, GOL is not an alliance. They are still a partner with United, see link.

http://www.united.com/page/article/0,,1195,00.html
 
Thorben
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 17):
I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing is trying to persuade TAM to buy the 787s. TAM hasn't reaffirmed their A350 comitment and it has been almost 6 months since relaunch.

Wait for the Paris air show. However, they are keeping that option open - I can't see any other reason for the 77W purchase.

A345 will look great in JJ colours. And FRA is a distance that allows taking a big load to it from GRU or GIG.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 23):
How about other codeshares like AF or KL? Will those stay as they apperantly are having new agreements with Star Alliance members?

At this time, stays untouched. I can say that SA is looking for a partnership with Tam also, and an agreement with LH is on TAM focus, but depending on further allocation from ANAC. Without frequencies, they will not need agreements with LH in Germany.

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 23):
How many CDG they have by now? Do they have 3 or 4 fligths a day?

Nowadays 3 daily flights / 21 weekly: 12 GRU-CDG, 7 GIG-CDG, 1 GRU-SSA-CDG and 1 GRU-REC-CDG.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 24):
a) the removal of business class in domestic routes. By its expansion drive TAM decided to operate Y only cabins in domestic flight, although there is C market in some selected routes such as BSB-GIG or GRU-MAO

Agree 100% and considering they use an Airbus A330-200 with at least 30C available, it's a waste of capital ! They should decide at least to sell C tickets where they use planes with C class like GRU-GIG-GRU, GIG-SSA-GIG, GRU-FOR-GRU, GRU-MAO-GRU and BSB-POA-BSB. And some routes like GIG-BSB, GIG-POA and CGH-BSB also they can introduce the service in some planes.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 24):
excessive concentration of flights on CGH. With all the problems and bottleneck of Brasil's civil aviation market, CGH became a "prolematic" airport

Agree 100%

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 24):
TAM strategy to route more than 50% of its flights via CGH is a gross mistake and is proving unsustainable. TAM should reasses its domestic network relying less in CGH and quicly boosting other connecting hubs such as BSB and GIG

And as you pointed out, one of the main reasons for their results on domestic market is the additional cost because of CGH delays: More hotels, meats and transport costs for pax that lost connections.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
vbeltraJJ
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 3:55 am

Hey fellas...sorry again in portuguese, but now, it´s official: TAM and UA.


Release #:1214-40936-em-208137:
TAM e United Airlines assinam memorando de entendimento nas áreas de codeshare e programas de fidelidade


São Paulo, 18 de Maio de 2007 - A TAM Linhas Aéreas (Bovespa: TAMM4 e NYSE: TAM) e a United Arlines (NASDAQ: UAUA), membro fundador da Star Alliance, assinam hoje, em São Paulo, um memorando de entendimento para desenvolver um acordo visando oferecer vôos compartilhados entre as duas empresas e expandir os destinos internacionais e as oportunidades dos programas de fidelidade para seus passageiros.

O acordo proposto resultará em mais opções de vôos para os passageiros que viajam entre Brasil e Estados Unidos. Fazem parte do acordo a implementação de "codeshare" (acordo operacional de compartilhamento de vôos) em serviços da TAM e da United Airlines, proporcionando aos clientes dos programas Mileage Plus, o plano de milhagem da United Airlines, e o Fidelidade TAM a oportunidade de ganhar e usufruir milhas para destinos que não são servidos atualmente.

A TAM é líder de mercado no Brasil, servindo 49 cidades no país, incluindo todas as capitais estaduais e o Distrito Federal. Internacionalmente, ela voa para diversos países na Europa e nas Américas do Norte e do Sul. Por sua vez, a United Airlines serve mais de 200 destinos no mundo a partir de seus centros de conexões (hubs) em Los Angeles, San Francisco, Denver, Chicago e Washington.

O presidente da TAM, Marco Antonio Bologna, afirmou que este acordo vai complementar a malha aérea internacional da TAM nos Estados Unidos, possibilitando acesso aos passageiros para os destinos servidos pela United Airlines nos Estados Unidos. "A United Airlines também vai comercializar os vôos da TAM nos Estados Unidos aos seus clientes e oferecer novas oportunidades de conexões a partir do Brasil em Washington e Chicago, importantes destinos para o tráfego de negócios", salientou Bologna. "Nossa expectativa é que esta parceria represente incremento de tráfego e de receita."

"Nós estamos muito satisfeitos em assinar este memorando de entendimento com a TAM que visa expandir as opções de destino na América do Sul para nossos clientes", disse John Tague, vicepresidente executivo de Receita da United Airlines. "A TAM é uma empresa aérea líder na América do Sul oferecendo excelentes serviços, e a complementação entre as nossas malhas trará muitos benefícios aos nossos clientes nas áreas de compartilhamento de vôos e programas de fidelidade. O acordo nos permitirá melhorar os serviços que prestamos aos nossos clientes, apoiando ao mesmo tempo nossa estratégia de crescimento internacional."

A entrada em vigor do memorando de entendimento exigirá a execução de acordos formais e dependerá da aprovação oficial dos governos do Brasil e dos Estados Unidos e de outras integrações que são aguardadas ainda no decorrer de 2007.


Cheers,

Victor
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 4:59 am

So it become real (UA x JJ)... now the next step to be confirmed... AA x JJ partnership is really about to end ? And may be in the next weeks we see some confirmation for the 2 additional A330-200 as well as 2 Boeing 777-300ER (i expect an announcement for Paris...)

In a couple weeks, Tam just "added" to it's route map LIS, OPO, MAD, CPH, FCO (all with future TP partnership), IAD, ORD (with UA), UIO and some others with LA !

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
jog
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sig

Sat May 19, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting VbeltraJJ (Reply 30):
rry again in portuguese, but now, it´s official: TAM and UA.

The english version of the press release can be found at http://www.b2i.us/Profiles/Investor/...=38327&myID=3252&L=e&Validate=3&I=

It's currently a memorandum of understanding and the agreements are expected to be in place in late 2007.
 
vbeltraJJ
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 8:55 am

The fleet update from our annual convention is different : 114 aircraft till the end of the year. So....it might be the 2 added A330.
And within the next 180 days approximately, AAxJJ will finish partnership.

Cheers,

Victor
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 9:46 am

Well... more news... partnership with LH seems to be CLOSED ! TO be announced Monday !

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 11:53 am

IMHO this seems odd. TAM is exchanging a partnership with a strong player in its US markets (MIA and JFK) for an airline that has limited service at both NY and Miami. JJ will have very little feed at both airports, and will have to rely on onward connections at ORD and IAD, both of which are thinner than NY and MIA from Brazil, and it's not even flying its own metal.

With the announced TP code share and future LH partnership, for me it can only mean one thing.... JJ will join Star. It seems it is just a matter of when. Come on... It's been said over and over here that JJ is not looking for an alliance, but it's as simple as putting 2 and 2 together!

My two cents.
 
daron4000
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 12:07 pm

First of all, TAM doesnt have to end their agreement with AA by starting one with UA. Second, maybe TAM wants a higher yield on their own metal instead of dealing with competition from AA who flies the same city pairs. Instead, they can fill O+D pax to MIA, JFK, and transfer pax to ORD/IAD via UA.
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sig

Sat May 19, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 36):
First of all, TAM doesnt have to end their agreement with AA by starting one with UA. Second, maybe TAM wants a higher yield on their own metal instead of dealing with competition from AA who flies the same city pairs. Instead, they can fill O+D pax to MIA, JFK, and transfer pax to ORD/IAD via UA.

Yes, they do. The Brazil-USA bilateral doesn't allow code-sharing with more than one airline.

[Edited 2007-05-19 05:21:27]
 
MAH4546
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 1:45 pm

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 35):
. JJ will have very little feed at both airports, and will have to rely on onward connections at ORD and IAD, both of which are thinner than NY and MIA from Brazil, and it's not even flying its own metal.

This will allow them to concentrate on O&D traffic from Miami and New York City to Brazil, which is huge. NYC/MIA probably represent half, if not more, of the traffic between the US and Brazil.
a.
 
jobalas
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 6:41 pm

[quote=LipeGIG,reply=34]Well... more news... partnership with LH seems to be CLOSED ! TO be announced Monday !

and what about the strong partnership between AFand JJ?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la Terre...
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 8:52 pm

To be honest, I would rather see TAM partning up with DL than UA. DL would provide much better feed at JFK and even MIA, where they keep many flights to their master hub ATL. Also JJ pax would have the option of using ATL, which would offer another bunch of possibilities to almost anywhere in the US. And with all that, JJ would get a little closer to Skyteam.

There is something else, JJ could be losing AA, but with new agreements with LA, TAM should be just fine at MIA. AA will have to deal with two strong airlines at MIA, even though LA & AA are partners. Jeez!! That's gonna be interesting!!!

I really would like to know what are the reasons for the end of JJ & AA code share agreement? I doubt JJ is spliting up with AA just to get closer to *alliance. I bet there's something else to it!!!
 
XA744
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 11:43 pm

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 40):
And with all that, JJ would get a little closer to Skyteam.

This is most interesting. Has TAM been considering MEX again ? I mean, if JJ ever joins Skyteam, and enters a broad codeshare agreement with Aeromexico, the possibilities to expand business between Brazil and Mexico would be enormous.

I know GOL-Varig is starting to serve Mexico City from GRU and MAO any time now, but would it possible to think that there will be some room left for TAM to make a move before Mexicana, and make an entry as a third and major player in this market ?

Best regards
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sat May 19, 2007 11:50 pm

Another thing that I just realized.

Can anyone imagine what it would be like having RG+AA as partners? Who would ever thought that?
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sun May 20, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting Jobalas (Reply 39):
and what about the strong partnership between AFand JJ?

It's not that strong Jobalas, you can't obtain FF miles as an Air France Frequent Flyer while flying Tam South America-Europe-South America routes as well as as a Tam customer i'm unable to obtain FF miles if flying AF Europe-South America-Europe (both vice-versa also!). JJ does not have access to the entire AF network (neither AF has), so it's in fact a limited partnership, mainly to connect inbound pax. UA and TP code-shares are far complete, both will allow Tam to use ALL network as well as complete FF integration.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 40):
To be honest, I would rather see TAM partning up with DL than UA. DL would provide much better feed at JFK and even MIA, where they keep many flights to their master hub ATL

We would expect some MCO-MIA flight with UA as well as some little additions. UA can take advantage of JJ also at MIA! JFK is not a big problem because is O&D oriented.

Quoting XA744 (Reply 41):
This is most interesting. Has TAM been considering MEX again ? I mean, if JJ ever joins Skyteam, and enters a broad codeshare agreement with Aeromexico, the possibilities to expand business between Brazil and Mexico would be enormous.

Not yet XA744, but TAM could use LAN network in the entire Latin America, so i believe they will code-share on some of their flights to Mexico.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 42):
Can anyone imagine what it would be like having RG+AA as partners? Who would ever thought that?

I never... but now seems to be the best alternative AA could obtain as BRA+Ocean Air ("The tropical alliance") will not focus on AA main hub, São Paulo.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MAH4546
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sun May 20, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 40):
DL would provide much better feed at JFK and even MIA, where they keep many flights to their master hub ATL.

They don't care about feed at Miami and JFK. TAM doesn't need feed at those cities. In fact, filling those flights up with connecting passengers, such as BOS passengers at JFK and MCO passengers at MIA, drags down the yield, as Boston and Orlando are notoriously poor yielding to Brazil.
a.
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sun May 20, 2007 5:12 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 43):
I never... but now seems to be the best alternative AA could obtain as BRA+Ocean Air ("The tropical alliance") will not focus on AA main hub, São Paulo.

GOL is far from being GRU oriented.
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sun May 20, 2007 8:44 am

After reading a few more news stories about the recent alliances this is what i think:

Tam is maximizing its revenue potential. The code sharing with UA, TP and LH drives "friendly" competition away from MIA, JFK, LHR, CDG and MXP, so JJ can fly its own metal to end destinations and route lower yielding connections through ORD, IAD, LIS, OPO, FRA and MUC. The partners, on the other side, are happy to have access to more airports in the most important market in Latin America.

If you look at it, must have been very well planned.
MIA - Huge demand, does not really need the feed.
JFK - Very big, not soo huge as MIA, but very high yielding.
LHR - A bit thinner market, but again, ridiculously high yielding.
CDG - Same as MIA, probably #1 for Brazil to Europe. Well maybe second after LIS but, with the recent agreement with TP, JJ will also be there. Coincidence?
MXP - Also a bit thinner, but more business oriented than FCO, and the competition (AZ) really sucks!

The agreement in Lan is creates a virtual "legacy" monopoly in the Southern Cone (Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Argentina and Chile, plus Peru), and leaves AR (I know AR is legacy as well, but it has a very poor product) and G3 fighting for the leisure, budget oriented traveller. All in all, very smart.
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sun May 20, 2007 10:13 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 45):
GOL is far from being GRU oriented.

It's their 3rd main airport nowadays, with non stop flights to POA, FLN, CWB, GIG, CNF, BSB, SSA, FOR, NAT, REC, MAO, BPS, among others. It's only behind CGH and GIG. Ocean Air + BRA will never become that important !
GRU is Gol main international hub.

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 46):
MIA - Huge demand, does not really need the feed.
JFK - Very big, not soo huge as MIA, but very high yielding.

I would say JFK is more O&D than MIA and JFK is not that high yield. Nowadays all airlines are looking for Low Fares on C and Y to fill the seats (JAL and TAM for US$ 2,600 on C for example).

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Sun May 20, 2007 8:57 pm

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 46):
JJ will also be there. Coincidence

TAM will not fly on its own metal to LIS. They can use the aircraft on a better (high yielding) destination in Europe or USA.
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM Moving Faster Abroad, More 77W/A332 On Sight

Mon May 21, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 43):
UA and TP code-shares are far complete, both will allow Tam to use ALL network as well as complete FF integration.

My feeling is that this clearly means that TAM is getting very close to a full integration into *Alliance. The partnership with LH, which many expect will also be very comprehensive, will set the done for TAM to join *Alliance. As pointed out, JJ-AF alliance is very limited, and JJ already has its slice of the CDG-Brazil (O&D) market. JJ approach to LA is nothing more than a simple regional agreement, while LA and GOL had problems in the batle for RG.

In case JJ and LH finalise and agreement we could see LH changing its operations in South America, becoming more reliant on connections and perhaps introducing FRA-GIG nonstop.

In case JJ becomes a full member of *Alliance we could expect SQ to operate SIN-GRU in the future as well as a possible NRT-GRU via LAX codeshare ANA-TAM.

In integration of RG into GOL, means that GOL is ready for joining an alliance, and if GOL provides their pax with an alliance we have to assume that TAM will also have to take part in an alliance.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 44):
They don't care about feed at Miami and JFK. TAM doesn't need feed at those cities. In fact, filling those flights up with connecting passengers, such as BOS passengers at JFK and MCO passengers at MIA, drags down the yield, as Boston and Orlando are notoriously poor yielding to Brazil.

100% correct.

Rgs,