ncelhr
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:53 pm

787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 1:31 am

I understand that the first completed 787 will be shown to the world on 7 July 2007. Is this going to fly at some point?

Indeed, is Boeing going to have static and fatigue airframes like Airbus before having a first flight with another frame, or are they going straight into the flying phase with SN 01 ?

Thanks for your answers.
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 3:09 am

The first frame out the door (on 7/8/07) will be a test flight aircrat that will fly around end of August. The 2nd plane off the line will be the static test frame followed by two more flight test airplanes and then the 5th will be the fatigue test frame.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
LY4XELD
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RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
The first frame out the door (on 7/8/07) will be a test flight aircrat that will fly around end of August. The 2nd plane off the line will be the static test frame followed by two more flight test airplanes and then the 5th will be the fatigue test frame.

Not quite. There are 6 test airplanes that are rolled out in sequence, all will support certification. Test frames for structures are not part of the flight test airplane sequence.
That's why we're here.
 
Someone83
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RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 4:16 am

What's the difference between the static test frame and the fatigue test frame? Thought it was the same?
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 4:20 am

static tests--bascially one force to breaking. done once

fatigue--many many many cycles of forces to see the behaviour under cyclic loading.
 
474218
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RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 7:41 am

Quoting LY4XELD (Reply 2):
Not quite. There are 6 test airplanes that are rolled out in sequence, all will support certification. Test frames for structures are not part of the flight test airplane sequence.

So when do the fatigue and static test articles get built, after the first six flyable airframes? Seems very late to start these test programs, that must be completed before certification. Additionally, I think they must to be built on the same production line as the flyable airframes to make the tests viable.
 
brendows
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RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
So when do the fatigue and static test articles get built, after the first six flyable airframes? Seems very late to start these test programs, that must be completed before certification. Additionally, I think they must to be built on the same production line as the flyable airframes to make the tests viable.

The second frame off the production line is the static airframe, while the fourth will be the one destined for fatigue testing. They will be built on the same production line as the flying aircraft. The framework for the static tests are as good as done.
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 7:56 am

Actually here is the order of production:

(In order of production).
ln1 - RR powered and first to fly
ln9997 - no engines, systems ect, Static Test frame
ln2 - RR powered and test flight
ln3 - RR powered and test flight
ln4 - RR powered and test flight
ln9998 - no engines, systems, ect. - Wing Break Test
ln5 - GE powered and test flight
ln6 - GE powered and test flight
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
bhmbaglock
Posts: 2489
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RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Actually here is the order of production:

(In order of production).
ln1 - RR powered and first to fly
ln9997 - no engines, systems ect, Static Test frame
ln2 - RR powered and test flight
ln3 - RR powered and test flight
ln4 - RR powered and test flight
ln9998 - no engines, systems, ect. - Wing Break Test
ln5 - GE powered and test flight
ln6 - GE powered and test flight

Which will be used for the shake tests?
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
brendows
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:55 pm

RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 10:35 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Actually here is the order of production:

Thanks NYC777  Smile When did they change the order? (my reference was an article in FI that was released last fall IIRC)
 
Hamlet69
Posts: 2481
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 2:45 am

RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
ln9997 - no engines, systems ect, Static Test frame



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
ln9998 - no engines, systems, ect. - Wing Break Test

The Static test frame is the same thing as the "Wing Break test" article (though I've never actually heard that term used as an official reference}. L/N9998 is the Fatigue test frame, which will not have it's wings physically broken unless something goes wrong over the course of the fatigue tests.


Regards,

Hamlet69  profile 
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
centrair
Posts: 2845
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RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 2:35 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
ln1 - RR powered and first to fly
ln9997 - no engines, systems ect, Static Test frame
ln2 - RR powered and test flight
ln3 - RR powered and test flight
ln4 - RR powered and test flight
ln9998 - no engines, systems, ect. - Wing Break Test
ln5 - GE powered and test flight
ln6 - GE powered and test flight

little off topic but...
Who gets ln1~ln6?

I keep thinking ln1 is for NH but I thought I heard that they get one later? The first 777 went to launch customer UA but the 1st A380 is not going to SQ.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
LY4XELD
Posts: 659
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 5:14 am

RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 2:45 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 11):
The first 777 went to launch customer UA but the 1st A380 is not going to SQ.

The first ever 777 (the one used for flight test) went to Cathay, not United.
That's why we're here.
 
scorpy
Posts: 166
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RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 2:48 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 11):
I keep thinking ln1 is for NH but I thought I heard that they get one later? The first 777 went to launch customer UA but the 1st A380 is not going to SQ.

UA have Ln2 AFAIK.. This was the first delivered 777. ln1 was used for various other purposes at boeing before finally being sold to cathay pacific a few years later. Apparently boeing offered it to UA as it was originally a PW frame but they could never agree to a price.
 
deaphen
Posts: 1090
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RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 3:10 pm

Quoting Scorpy (Reply 13):
UA have Ln2 AFAIK.. This was the first delivered 777. ln1 was used for various other purposes at boeing before finally being sold to cathay pacific a few years later. Apparently boeing offered it to UA as it was originally a PW frame but they could never agree to a price.

Yes, The protoype 777 is with CX as B-HNL.

regards
nitin
I want every single airport and airplane in India to be on A.net!
 
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LTU932
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RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 4:23 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 11):
Who gets ln1~ln6?

I'd like to know that as well. I heard something that Line Number 5 or 6 were going to NH, but they have GE engines (unless they want to use the opportunity to show the engine interchangeablility the 787 was supposed to offer with the common engine pylon).

Quoting Centrair (Reply 11):
The first 777 went to launch customer UA but the 1st A380 is not going to SQ.

A380 MSN001 was slated to stay with Airbus as a flighttest aircraft from the start. I believe it's MSN003 or 005 which is going to SQ.

Quoting Scorpy (Reply 13):
ln1 was used for various other purposes at boeing before finally being sold to cathay pacific a few years later. Apparently boeing offered it to UA as it was originally a PW frame but they could never agree to a price.

Note also that Boeing re-engined 777 Line Number 1 with Trent engines before delivery to CX. I presume it was for commonality purposes, though I wonder if it was Boeing who picked up the tab for the re-engining.

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centrair
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RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sat May 19, 2007 4:25 pm

Thanks for clearing up the 777 issue. So what about the first 6 787s? Who gets which?
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
kaitak744
Posts: 2110
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:32 pm

RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sun May 20, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 15):
I'd like to know that as well. I heard something that Line Number 5 or 6 were going to NH, but they have GE engines (unless they want to use the opportunity to show the engine interchangeablility the 787 was supposed to offer with the common engine pylon).

These first 6 have been stated to be overweight. Boeing also stated that the deliveries to ANA will NOT be overweight. So, ANA is not getting any of the 6 test frames.
 
jamesbuk
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Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 11:52 pm

RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sun May 20, 2007 1:21 am

Why do they roll them out and first flight them at different times? Why not roll it out and then taxi to the runway and take off?

Rgds --James--
You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
 
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LTU932
Posts: 13091
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sun May 20, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 18):
Why do they roll them out and first flight them at different times? Why not roll it out and then taxi to the runway and take off?

They probably have to do more systems checks, engine runs and some taxi tests before they can get to the first flight.
 
LY4XELD
Posts: 659
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 5:14 am

RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sun May 20, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 18):
Why do they roll them out and first flight them at different times? Why not roll it out and then taxi to the runway and take off

Roll out is a usual ceremonial milestone for new airplanes. It's kind of like "look at what we did!" and showing that the airplane is on its way to first flight. An airplane may not be ready to fly, but the look is complete and it shows major progress (especially in the eyes of stakeholders and the investors!).
That's why we're here.
 
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ADent
Posts: 935
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RE: 787 Test Frames?

Sun May 20, 2007 4:23 pm

Is Boeing rollout normally done by tug or own power?

If by tug then no power is needed (except outside lighting). Inside can empty for all we know.

We have done PR rollouts, then drive it around back into the factory to finish up the last bits of work.
 
2175301
Posts: 817
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

RE: 787 Test Frames?

Mon May 21, 2007 8:36 am

Great thread - I had thought to ask essentially the same question as I was driving back this weekend.

One follow-up though...

Boeing is also going to be required to prove that the composite wing will have a certain safety margin in the case of a crash and/or fire. Aluminium framed and covered wings would transmit the heat of the fire away and provide several more minutes of margin before the fuel in the wing-tanks would reach flash-point if there was a fire under the wing.

Boeing will have to prove the same time margin will exist so that their is "adequate" time to evacuate the plane (in theory).

Is Boeing going to do this test with one of the test planes (which I am sure will destroy at least a wing) - or are they just going to do this test with a wing loaded with fuel.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 628
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

RE: 787 Test Frames?

Mon May 21, 2007 1:04 pm

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 22):
Boeing is also going to be required to prove that the composite wing will have a certain safety margin in the case of a crash and/or fire. Aluminium framed and covered wings would transmit the heat of the fire away and provide several more minutes of margin before the fuel in the wing-tanks would reach flash-point if there was a fire under the wing

I do not think it is that simple. Al is an excellent conductor, but much of the heat will pass right thru to the fuel. Probably, the fuel would be at boil before significant heat was dissapated. Carbon and glass fiber composites are good insulators. The real question would be which lasts longer with flame on one side and fuel on the other. Only well designed tests would be able to determine this.

As I recall the photos of the AF 340 crash at YYZ, which by the way was successfully evacuated and had no fatalities, by the grace of god, the fuse was destroyed by fire within 5 to 10 minutes. AL burns and melts quite fast in a fir, my question would be if the resins in the CFRP are a fuel source in a hot fire and their endurance in the same.

My intuition is that the CFRP fire performance will be similar to better than AL. From my work I know their behavior is better in the 150 to 450F range but above these temperatures both are rapidly losing (except with the more exotic resins that are high temp) their strength.
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: 787 Test Frames?

Tue May 22, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 18):
Why do they roll them out and first flight them at different times? Why not roll it out and then taxi to the runway and take off?

Rgds --James--

Its probably going to empty and held together with duct tape  bigthumbsup 

iwok
 
sphealey
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 12:39 am

RE: 787 Test Frames?

Tue May 22, 2007 12:08 am

> The second frame off the production line is the static airframe, while
> the fourth will be the one destined for fatigue testing. They will be
> built on the same production line as the flying aircraft. The
> framework for the static tests are as good as done.

Makes life, um, interesting for the test pilots! "Here today's flight schedule - we will be working toward 75% of final g-loading. In other project news, I understand the static tests will start tomorrow" !!

sPh
 
ncelhr
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:53 pm

RE: 787 Test Frames?

Tue May 22, 2007 5:44 pm

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 23):
My intuition is that the CFRP fire performance will be similar to better than AL. From my work I know their behavior is better in the 150 to 450F range but above these temperatures both are rapidly losing (except with the more exotic resins that are high temp) their strength.

Is there a danger that in case of a fire, the resins might emit toxic fumes?

(sorry if my question may be stupid - I know nothing about composites)
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8655
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: 787 Test Frames?

Tue May 22, 2007 6:02 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 21):
Is Boeing rollout normally done by tug or own power?

Tug. Roll-outs have even been done inside a hangar (a la 737NG and A380)

Quoting ADent (Reply 21):
We have done PR rollouts, then drive it around back into the factory to finish up the last bits of work.

And the 787 will be no different. Boeing will need at least a month of additional work and ground tests before the 787 will be flight ready in mid/late August.
 
brons2
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: 787 Test Frames?

Wed May 23, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting Scorpy (Reply 13):
UA have Ln2 AFAIK.. This was the first delivered 777. ln1 was used for various other purposes at boeing before finally being sold to cathay pacific a few years later. Apparently boeing offered it to UA as it was originally a PW frame but they could never agree to a price.

From what I understand, Boeing changed out the engines from PW to RR for CX!
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.

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