LAXintl
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United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 3:46 am

TAM and United Airlines Sign Memorandum of Understanding for Codeshare and Frequent Flyer Programs
Friday May 18,

Agreement will enable TAM and United customers to connect to new South American and United States destinations and will expand frequent flyer opportunities for customers of both carriers

SAO PAULO, Brazil, May 18 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- TAM Linhas Aereas (Bovespa: TAMM4 and NYSE: TAM) and United Airlines (NASDAQ: UAUA - News), a founding member of the Star Alliance, will sign today a memorandum of understanding to develop an agreement that enables the airlines to offer codeshare flights with each other and expands international destinations and frequent flyer opportunities for customers of both carriers.

The proposed agreement will result in more options for customers traveling between Brazil and the United States. The agreement includes the implementation of codeshare on TAM and United flights, giving customers of United's Mileage Plus® and TAM's Fidelidade programs the opportunity to earn and redeem miles to destinations never-before served.



http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070518/spf001.html?.v=63
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United787
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 3:53 am

Incredible and surprising, althought LipeGIG told us about this yesterday.

Congrats to both. I know many people on this forum think that TAM is not interested in an Alliance, but this does get them a little closer to Star Alliance.

I assume the partnership with Varig will go away now????

http://www.united.com/page/article/0,,1195,00.html
 
MAH4546
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 1):
Congrats to both. I know many people on this forum think that TAM is not interested in an Alliance, but this does get them a little closer to Star Alliance.

They also signed a large agreement with LAN last week. It get's them no closer to Star than that got them to oneWorld. It is quite clear TAM has no plans to join an alliance right now.

Quoting United787 (Reply 1):

I assume the partnership with Varig will go away now????

Yes, but I wouldn't be shocked if the new Varig pairs up with AA.
a.
 
elmothehobo
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 4:04 am

TAM is getting in bed with everyone to test the waters and see which alliance fits them best. This is probably the beginning of the end of the AA/TAM relationship, though.
 
jobalas
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 4:17 am

and what about relationship between AF and JJ ( and skyteam?) ?
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LipeGIG
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 4:56 am

It could change a lot UA focus on South America. With a strong partner again, UA is about to return to MIA and IMO, we could expect at least some new UA flights out of MIA (including MIA-MCO) to take care of this agreement. Considering also that TAM could fly to LAX in the near future (as well as additional services to MIA), seems that we can see AA leadership in US-Brazil market in a not so comfortable position !

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MAH4546
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 4:59 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
With a strong partner again, UA is about to return to MIA and IMO, we could expect at least some new UA flights out of MIA (including MIA-MCO) to take care of this agreement.

Interesting. I doubt it, but it would be nice to see.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
seems that we can see AA leadership in US-Brazil market in a not so comfortable position !

I truly doubt that. While the loss of TAM is unfortunate and puts AA in a weaker position, they are still very comfortable. Remember, they are about to double the number of cities they serve in Brazil, and still offer the largest variety of service.
a.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 5:03 am

UA will not be trying MIA again. They are still bleeding money in Latin America and do not have the resources or presence in the southern US to make Latin America work.

This agreement also does not move TAM any closer to Star. They have built their European network around CDG and Air France. Those 77Ws are a bit to much to be flying to other European hubs – and Germany just doesn’t’ generate the Star is very protective about its carriers having relationships outside of the alliance.

Varig is or will be controlled by Gol. What will be interesting to watch is whether Gol and Varig align with AA or DL.
 
dutchjet
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 3):
This is probably the beginning of the end of the AA/TAM relationship, though.

If TAM and UA will be working together, exactly where does that leave AA? Doesnt AA and TAM codeshare on (some) flights between the US and Brasil?
 
jimyvr
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 5:07 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 7):
They have built their European network around CDG and Air France.

and soon to FRA with Lufthansa
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worldtraveler
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 8:41 am

they won't have multiple frequencies to CDG and FRA... because the hub carriers at each of those cities are in 2 different alliances...

but TAM isn't joining any alliance any time soon.... they don't need to.... when you have the only viable int'l service from the largest country in S. America, people beg to be associated w/ you. TAM's best option for now is to "play the field"
 
MAH4546
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 9:05 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
they won't have multiple frequencies to CDG and FRA... because the hub carriers at each of those cities are in 2 different alliances...

Who is "they"? TAM flies three daily flights to Paris, and will be adding a fourth soon.
a.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 10:12 am

let me introduce to the conjunction "AND". I said that Tam won't be flying to CDG AND FRA multiple times per day.

TAM is the only proper noun before "they" in your quote.
 
C010T3
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 11:02 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
when you have the only viable int'l service from the largest country in S. America

What do you mean by "only"?
 
MAH4546
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 1:48 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
let me introduce to the conjunction "AND". I said that Tam won't be flying to CDG AND FRA multiple times per day.

TAM is the only proper noun before "they" in your quote.

No need to be so rude.

It is extremely possible TAM will be double-daily to Frankfurt within 12 months of launching service. They like to utilize their planes heavily, which means not having them sit at airports and running daylights and redeyes. That's why when the fourth daily flight to Miami is launched later this year, it means a 5th daily is coming too.
a.
 
airbazar
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sat May 19, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 7):
This agreement also does not move TAM any closer to Star. They have built their European network around CDG and Air France.

Did you forget the recent agreement with TAP, the largest carrier between Brazil and Europe by a long mile? TAM may have the most flights to CDG with their own metal but they've just jumped in bed with TP, now UA, and are looking to join LH in FRA. It's pretty obvious which way they're heading.
 
ORD Boy 2
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sun May 20, 2007 1:10 am

I agree I think Star is close to getting TAM
 
LipeGIG
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sun May 20, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 15):
Did you forget the recent agreement with TAP, the largest carrier between Brazil and Europe by a long mile? TAM may have the most flights to CDG with their own metal but they've just jumped in bed with TP, now UA, and are looking to join LH in FRA. It's pretty obvious which way they're heading.

Also, the partnerships with TP and UA at least are far more interesting for JJ than AA and AF for example. Both Tap and United will allow Tam to use it's entire network and their customers can obtain FF miles in any flight. UA will not limit the number of seats as AA use to, and even considering they will have to find a solution for MIA and CDG, it's not a big problem. So i agree that Tam is closer to Star than any other alliance nowadays, but do they will join ? Good question and only the future will answer.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
worldtraveler
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sun May 20, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 15):
and are looking to join LH in FRA.

says who?

TAM has the lion's share of the Brazilian int'l and domestic traffic at this point.... they may well be moving toward Star but I think they are making a mistake if they do. AF can be far more supportive to the in Europe and DL has a stronger presence and brighter future in Brazil than UA does. TAM won't lose w/ Star but I think Skyteam would be better for them.

but there are still no indications they are making a decision to go with Star. they are signing commercial relationships that make sense for them, regardless of the alliances those other carriers are in.
 
LAXintl
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sun May 20, 2007 4:47 am

TAM will be indeed signing up a cooperative deal with Lufthansa . The airline on more then one occasions has indicated this desire to partner with LH and the benefits the FRA hub provides.

Here is an article which mentions a LH-TAM agreement might come as soon as Monday
http://portalexame.abril.com.br/ae/economia/m0129497.html


This other article covering the TAM-UA deal also mentions TAM will discontinue its partnership with AA once the broader UA agreement is approved.
http://www.mercadoeeventos.com.br/sc...?pStrLink=3,26,0,20272&IndSeguro=0
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MAH4546
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sun May 20, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):

TAM has the lion's share of the Brazilian int'l and domestic traffic at this point.... they may well be moving toward Star but I think they are making a mistake if they do. AF can be far more supportive to the in Europe and DL has a stronger presence and brighter future in Brazil than UA does. TAM won't lose w/ Star but I think Skyteam would be better for them.

TAM's not joining an alliance. They have made that very clear over and over again. They will soon have strong partnerships with United, Lufthansa, all four LAN airlines, TAP, and Air France, among others.
a.
 
hardiwv
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sun May 20, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
TAM's not joining an alliance. They have made that very clear over and over again. They will soon have strong partnerships with United, Lufthansa, all four LAN airlines, TAP, and Air France, among others.

It also means airliners will lure GOL to join an alliance. GOL this year launched its FF program, meaning it will be ready to negotiate an agreement soon. If GOL joins an alliance, it will means TAM will also have to make up its mind.

Rgs
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sun May 20, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
let me introduce to the conjunction "AND". I said that Tam won't be flying to CDG AND FRA multiple times per day.

TAM is the only proper noun before "they" in your quote.

Ow come on man, no call to be so rude.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
AF can be far more supportive to the in Europe and DL has a stronger presence and brighter future in Brazil than UA does.

No one will argue that since ATL is indeed the far superior hub, but as fun as it is to talk about how Wonderful DL is, this thread has nothing to do with ATL or DL. You do have an uncanny ability to turn any thread into a DL lovefest.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 19):
TAM will be indeed signing up a cooperative deal with Lufthansa . The airline on more then one occasions has indicated this desire to partner with LH and the benefits the FRA hub provides.

This is great news for UA, LH, and TAM. With rumors of TAM flying LAX-GRU and LA's very large UA FF membership, this will be a win-win for Los Angeles travelers.
It is what it is...
 
AJMIA
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sun May 20, 2007 1:47 pm

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 3):
This is probably the beginning of the end of the AA/TAM relationship, though.

Yup it is. JJ has advised AA they intend to dump the codeshare and frequent flyer agreement.

Too bad! I have really enjoyed working with JJ MIA on a partner level.

Ultimately I think this will have a negative effect for both AA and JJ as together they were strongest US/BR partners, however I think this split will be worse for JJ than AA for several reasons...

1) Seeing that JJ's US gateways are MIA and JFK, UA cannot offer JJ the connectivity that AA can. With no nonstop flights from JJ's main gateway MIA to LAX, SFO, BOS, JFK, LGA, TPA, and especially MCO (80 or more MCO passengers from JJ is not unusual). Most JJ passengers will still connect to AA at MIA. I doubt UA will jump back into these markets just to accommodate some codeshare passengers.

2) AA passengers will now not have the option of an AA* flight operated by JJ on the international sector and thus will stay on AA metal for their entire journey.

3) And finally with AA introducing more nonstop flights to new cities in Brazil there will be fewer AA passengers connecting to JJ domestic flights.


I had an idea that JJ was looking around, but I thought they were talking to DL. Especially a couple month's ago when the JJ manager of international airports introduced me to a couple of JJ top managers from Brazil who were flying AA from MIA-ATL. When I shook their hand I told them that I sure hoped they were not going to leave us for DL and then told me "Never" and smiled  Smile

AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
airbazar
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Sun May 20, 2007 11:46 pm

Well, that depends on how you look at it. It may be good for AA from the US side, but the reverse may not be so good. Miami and New York, along with LA are by far the largest destinations for Brazilian travelers. TAM will not have to share the traffic with a partner because UA's presence in S.America is minimal so their yields will improve. American travelers may pick AA over TAM, but Brazilian travelers will likely pick TAM over AA. TAM probably feels that currently there isn't enough demand for cities other than MIA and JFK to maintain the current agreement with AA. They can carry the O&D traffic and send the connecting traffic on a UA flight. In due time, they can always add a flight to IAD if needed but right now I suspect their US priority is LAX.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Mon May 21, 2007 2:44 am

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 23):
1) Seeing that JJ's US gateways are MIA and JFK, UA cannot offer JJ the connectivity that AA can. With no nonstop flights from JJ's main gateway MIA to LAX, SFO, BOS, JFK, LGA, TPA, and especially MCO (80 or more MCO passengers from JJ is not unusual). Most JJ passengers will still connect to AA at MIA. I doubt UA will jump back into these markets just to accommodate some codeshare passengers.

Lets say that the big problem is MCO, TPA and Texas main stations, as for LGA and JFK, TAM fly non-stop to JFK. For BOS they can use UA flights to IAD (if it's just a matter of connection). For LAX and SFO, i believe TAM is preparing a new flight very soon. It's a matter of distribution of connections, MIA and JFK are stronger bases in terms of O&D also, and with some UA pax going to MIA and JFK (UA use to fly both markets from Brazil in the past), seems to be good.

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 23):
3) And finally with AA introducing more nonstop flights to new cities in Brazil there will be fewer AA passengers connecting to JJ domestic flights.

In fact AA will keep some negative points. CNF use to be the destination for up to 80 daily pax on AA flights, the south of Brazil also (including some C and F pax to POA and CWB). You're correct about future services to the Northeast, but there's more than this. If AA won't settle an agreement with Gol (at least interline), they will need at least to think about BSB, POA, CWB and CNF. I'm sure AJMIA that without those 4 destinations, AA will loose important customers.

In the end, seems that AA could take care of some customers from American cities, but they have to remember about competition. In the other side, JJ assume a better position as they keep no competitors at this time on Brazil-US service. Selling a product MCO-MIA-GRU / GRU-NVT for example, with a new check-in in the overcrowded Guarulhos could be made 1 time, but at the second time the customer will try something different. In the other side, Brazilians wont complain about a second check-in in MIA, far more comfortable.

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 23):
I had an idea that JJ was looking around, but I thought they were talking to DL. Especially a couple month's ago when the JJ manager of international airports introduced me to a couple of JJ top managers from Brazil who were flying AA from MIA-ATL

ATL is one of the best selling stations JJ keep in the US, in fact they keep a sales team and a local office in the city. ATL become one of the top destinations of any brazilian corporation engaged on any kind of distribution in North America.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MAH4546
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Mon May 21, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):

In fact AA will keep some negative points. CNF use to be the destination for up to 80 daily pax on AA flights, the south of Brazil also (including some C and F pax to POA and CWB). You're correct about future services to the Northeast, but there's more than this. If AA won't settle an agreement with Gol (at least interline), they will need at least to think about BSB, POA, CWB and CNF. I'm sure AJMIA that without those 4 destinations, AA will loose important customers.

AA will certainly continue to interline with TAM.
a.
 
AJMIA
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Tue May 22, 2007 6:12 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
Selling a product MCO-MIA-GRU / GRU-NVT for example, with a new check-in in the overcrowded Guarulhos could be made 1 time, but at the second time the customer will try something different.

Yes but even when the codeshare goes away, AA passengers would still be able to interline their bags with JJ. The only problem is they will not be able to sell the ticket as a thru online connection and accrue miles. Not much of the current travel experience will change.
Actually it is the JJ outstations that are often short checking bags to MIA so the passengers have to recheck for US domestic flights when they arrive at MIA... and that ain't a walk in the park either.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 24):
American travelers may pick AA over TAM, but Brazilian travelers will likely pick TAM over AA. TAM probably feels that currently there isn't enough demand for cities other than MIA and JFK to maintain the current agreement with AA.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
In the end, seems that AA could take care of some customers from American cities, but they have to remember about competition. In the other side, JJ assume a better position as they keep no competitors at this time on Brazil-US service.

True.
But the thing to remember JJ's main gateway to the USA is MIA. At MIA UA only has RJ's to IAD/ORD and TED to DEN. I believe they also have some turboprop codeshares with Gulfstream as well. So at MIA AA will still take the lion share of JJ connecting passengers even if the codeshare and mileage program is not in place. AA will be paid more for these flights outside the agreement.
At AA's main gateways in Brazil GRU/GIG, AA will initially continue to send the lion's share of our passengers to JJ connections, but I am fairly certain AA will attempt to hook up with Gol/Varig, and if this happens AA will swing their connecting passengers away from JJ.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
ATL is one of the best selling stations JJ keep in the US, in fact they keep a sales team and a local office in the city. ATL become one of the top destinations of any Brazilian corporation engaged on any kind of distribution in North America.

Yes but DL and JJ had been talking for sometime. I am sure they were very surprised that JJ chose UA when the announcement was made. The JJ MIA people I spoke to yesterday said not only were they surprised of the sudden split from AA. but they were also surprised that the split was to UA instead of DL.

AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
hardiwv
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Tue May 22, 2007 6:24 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
If AA won't settle an agreement with Gol (at least interline), they will need at least to think about BSB, POA, CWB and CNF.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 26):
AA will certainly continue to interline with TAM.

Yes, but UA pax will have full codeshare with JJ for ALL routes. UA will now have a major advantage to expand in Brazil considering it has the support of an airline with 50% of the domestic market. JJ could also well take care of connecting UA pax to other South American destinations.

All in all, for the time being, the agreement means that the big winner is UA.

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 27):
So at MIA AA will still take the lion share of JJ connecting passengers even if the codeshare and mileage program is not in place. AA will be paid more for these flights outside the agreement.

JJ will certainly focus on O&D in MIA and JFK. JJ will be able to sell UA's ORD and IAD which then will take care of connections to other US destinations- and I am sure that connecting in IAD or ORD is much smoother than MIA. In addition, JJ LAX-GRU is in the pipeline and will get reinforced with ANA-JJ codeshare.

Rgs,
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Tue May 22, 2007 9:30 pm

Depending on time of the year AA has 3 to 4 planes resting on the tarmac all day at GRU, only the JFK flight goes onward to GIG. Maybe they could return to CNF and POA as tag ons and yet another city, maybe BSB, SSA or CWB. Don't know about the costs but it's been done before.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Wed May 23, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 27):
Yes but DL and JJ had been talking for sometime. I am sure they were very surprised that JJ chose UA when the announcement was made. The JJ MIA people I spoke to yesterday said not only were they surprised of the sudden split from AA. but they were also surprised that the split was to UA instead of DL.

Was a surprise for many people on TAM HQ's also... seems that the *A focus is something new !

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 27):
But the thing to remember JJ's main gateway to the USA is MIA. At MIA UA only has RJ's to IAD/ORD and TED to DEN

It should be the biggest nightmare TAM has today, and that's why UA could be looking how to improve MIA. I doubt AA will grant so many seats to TAM on MIA-MCO in the future, for example, even on interline. It will be a very strong competitive advantage AA will keep.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 28):
JJ will certainly focus on O&D in MIA and JFK

The question is if they can focus on O&D to MIA. All times i flew to MIA with JJ it's easy to see lot's of people connecting on AA flights (MCO is the king). JFK is easy to see this focus and in fact, JJ does not offer connections out of JFK ! If you look for BOS for example, JJ website only shows MIA as an option.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
worldtraveler
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Wed May 23, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 28):
All in all, for the time being, the agreement means that the big winner is UA.

The only winner in all this is UA…. UA is still very weak in South America and it is hardly clear if having JJ for a partner can help UA there….. after all, RG was in Star for all of the years that UA continued to pull down S. America. AA and JJ will continue to interline a lot of traffic…. Interline procedures are not tied to any alliance…..

Gol is definitely the “friend” to be had… and given that AA and DL both need partners in South America, there is no doubt that Gol will be pursued. However, Gol’s model is much less conducive to int’l cooperation from IT/Res systems to customer service. Gol could well decide they are now best off to not affiliate w/ either DL or AA since they may get a higher percentage of both carriers’ connecting traffic than they have so far. But it is true that JJ does still have an advantage because they do interline with other carriers while Gol does not. Also, we have yet to see what Gol will due with the new Varig.

Finally, expect to see that this will only cause AA and DL to increase their presence in Brazil…. They will be able to find opportunities to grow and will be able to connect passengers to other destinations better than UA/JJ can do… .esp. to the southeast and Gulf States.
 
C010T3
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Wed May 23, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 31):
The only winner in all this is UA…. UA is still very weak in South America and it is hardly clear if having JJ for a partner can help UA there….

I think UA is the winner, because they can offer more options in Brazil to their passengers, but that's about it. I agree that UA might not be interested in expanding service to Brazil, just optimizing...
 
airbazar
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RE: United And TAM To Launch Codeshare

Wed May 23, 2007 3:08 am

As has been said, JJ can send some of their connecting passegers on UA via ORD. Also, I wonder if JJ would strike a temporary bilateral deal with a LCC such as AirTran out of Miami or Jet Blue out of JFK. That could be interesting.