Sydscott
Topic Author
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United Hub At SFO

Sun May 20, 2007 6:18 pm

I did a search on here and on United.com and couldn't find a confirmation of the below. I am somewhat surprised that UAL's SFO hub isn't larger than this given that it is it's primary International hub on the West Coast. I have tried to incorporate only United and United Express operated flights. I make a total of 282 flights. I thought they were bigger than this? Can anyone confirm that I'm in the ballpark here or whether I've missed any destinations? These are based on May 22 departures.

International

FRA 1
HKG 1
ICN 1
KIX 1
LHR 2
MEX 1
NGO 1
NRT 2
PEK 1
PVG 1
PVR 1
SAL 1
SJD 1
SYD 1
TPE 1

Mainline

AUS 1
BOS 5
BUR 7 4 mainline, 3 express
BWI 1
DEN 10
DFW 2
EWR 3
HNL 3
IAD 8
IAH 1
JFK 7
KOA 2
LAX 19
LIH 1
MCO 1
OGG 2
ORD 10
PDX 7
PHL 2
PIT 1
RNO 6 2 mainline, 4 express
SAN 10
SEA 8
SLC 5 1 mainline, 4 express
SNA 6 4 mainline, 2 express
YVR 4
YYZ 1

Express

ABQ 2 Express
ACV 8 Express
BFL 3 Express
BOI 5 Express
CEC 2 Express
CIC 4 Express
COS 1 Express
EUG 6 Express
FAT 8 Express
MFR 8 Express
MOD 5 Express
MRY 7 Express
ONT 4 Express
MFR 8 Express
MOD 5 Express
MRY 7 Express
ONT 4 Express
PSP 2 Express
RDD 5 Express
RDM 3 Express
SAT 1 Express
SBA 9 Express
SBP 5 Express
SMF 7 Express
TUS 1 Express

Ted

LAS 8
PHX 4
 
AeroWesty
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Sun May 20, 2007 6:37 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Thread starter):
I am somewhat surprised that UAL's SFO hub isn't larger than this given that it is it's primary International hub on the West Coast.

SFO isn't situated geographically to take more than connecting traffic to Asia in essentially one large midday bank, connect passengers up and down the west coast, to Hawaii, and some west coasters to the east, along with servicing the somewhat sizeable O&D market. If you're flying from Seattle to the east coast, for example, SFO is several hundred miles out of your way vs. DEN or ORD. Traffic between other western cities is large enough that some of it can overfly SFO, reducing the need for too large of a hub on the coast.
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JayDub
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Sun May 20, 2007 8:26 pm

SFO's ability to handle large volumes of arrivals, primarily due to lack of separation between parallel runways...well, it just doesn't exist. This puts a big limit on the airport's ability to handle much more than it already does, therefore hindering anyone's attempts at making SFO a large hub.

The airlines are lucky to get a 60 Average Arrival Rate out of SFO on an almost perfect day. More often than not...when there are low ceilings and/or patchy fog...that drops to a 30-45 AAR and the ground delay programs start. Without SOIA approaches, the AAR drops to even less than that. This is a big concern for many people when Virgin America* and WN start full operations out of SFO. SFO flow times can be bad enough right now without the extra volume...just imagine throwing 2 more carriers into the mix.

If SFO could manage a 60 rate all the time, it could be a pretty big hub for someone. Unfortunately, in it's current configuration, it just isn't going to happen.






* - How are we coming along on getting the IATA code in the system for Virgin America?
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
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ramprat74
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Sun May 20, 2007 9:36 pm

United operated around 250 mainline departures a day back in the late 90's. Most of the flights were Shuttle By United. Like others have posted, when low clouds hit, delays were very common. United has handed a lot of traffic over to UAX RJ's in recent years.
 
OH-LGA
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Mon May 21, 2007 9:32 am

You neglected to add the second daily SFO-FRA flight which has been operating since late April, and there are 3x additional weekly SFO-HKG frequencies as well.

The June schedule change will shake things up a little bit, with SFO-PMD inaugurating with 2 daily CRJ200 roundtrips, and an additional COS frequency (OO) and an additional EUG frequency (OO) as well. BOI will see a 737-300 on the last flight of the evening, replacing a UAX CRJ200. Upon further investigation it looks from a glance that the 737 was pulled from SFO-BUR (replaced by a CRJ200), making it one 737 and one CRJ200 RON in BUR and the BOI 737-300 operating FFOD BOI-SFO as well.

Many markets are seeing capacity and equipment adjustments, with EUG seeing a capacity increase, while SMF and RNO see minor decreases (CRJ200 -> EMB-120 on certain flights). But, with the exception of the PMD addition to the route network, nothing major seems to be on the horizon for now at least.
Head in the clouds... yet feet planted firmly on the ground.
 
as739x
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Mon May 21, 2007 10:28 am

If I am not mistaken SFO will be losing the 3 additional weekly HKG once LAX-HKG begins. I'd think it would have stayed if UA had the a/c available.

On top of the amount of flights SFO can handle in low weather situations and the geographical position is United has limited gates space at SFO. During the mornings they overflow some international flights to the A concourse. If I am not mistaken there are on 4 domestic gates that can handle the 747/777.

I wonder if United would consider a few early am departure's to Asia if they had the a/c availability.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
SFOFlyer
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Mon May 21, 2007 12:08 pm

Without doing any real searching, you are missing the Saturday only flight SFO-CUN. I am sure that there are more Saturday only flights out there...
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Tornado82
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Mon May 21, 2007 12:13 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Thread starter):
PIT 1

No. This is only a codeshare onto a USAirways flight. It's US metal, not UA.
 
jdwfloyd
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Mon May 21, 2007 12:14 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Thread starter):
PIT 1

UA does not serve PIT direct out of SFO. It may be a code share with US or a thru flight.
 
OH-LGA
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Mon May 21, 2007 12:20 pm

SFO-PVR operates Mon/Wed/Fri/Sat as well with a Ted A320...
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Sydscott
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Mon May 21, 2007 12:28 pm

So I'm seeing one additional FRA + two new PMD + 1 COS + 1 EUG - 1 PIT = 286.

Quoting SFOFlyer (Reply 6):
Without doing any real searching, you are missing the Saturday only flight SFO-CUN. I am sure that there are more Saturday only flights out there

I didn't count the Saturday only flights because I figured that they were replacing a mainline domestic service for the most part and, therefore, wouldn't overly effect the number of departures for the day. If anything I'd have though weekend
departures would be slightly lower than weekdays.

Quoting OH-LGA (Reply 4):
and there are 3x additional weekly SFO-HKG frequencies as well.

I didn't count those 3 because I figured that they were disappearing when the LAX-HKG flight takes effect.

Thanks for the info everyone!!
 
copaair737
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Mon May 21, 2007 12:48 pm

SFO-BIL weekend service starts June 7th on OO.

-Copa
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
OH-LGA
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Mon May 21, 2007 12:54 pm

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 11):
SFO-BIL weekend service starts June 7th on OO.

Oh that's right... along with SFO-BZN as well.
Head in the clouds... yet feet planted firmly on the ground.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Mon May 21, 2007 5:12 pm

According to flightaware.com SFO operations currently average around 52-55 ops/hr at peak hr. I talked recently to a man who designed the Garulhos Airport in Sao Paulo and he noted how San Francisco is stuck with this problem, essentially SFO has two runways at one time.

QUESTION: Can SFO operate with the 28R for Arrivals, 28L for departures and and Runways 1L or 1R for departures all at the same time? That would seem to be an efficient way of running the airport, then again I have no knowledge about runway ops.

I guess the only option for SFO, is doing something in the likes of Osaka-Kansai, building on the bay, but the environmentalists will be up in arms with that thought.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
UAL777UK
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Mon May 21, 2007 5:44 pm

Quoting AS739X (Reply 5):
If I am not mistaken SFO will be losing the 3 additional weekly HKG once LAX-HKG begins. I'd think it would have stayed if UA had the a/c available.

For sure. Same old problem, we now seem to be getting at UA...distinct lack of metal.
 
as739x
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Mon May 21, 2007 10:11 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 13):

Technically it does operate this was. The normal departures are 1L/R and arrivals 28L/R. When there are a heavies departing to Asia/Hawaii and Europe, they MOSTLY depart 28L/R. But to cut SFO down to 28R arrivals only is the problem. In low vis, this is what happens. Add in a good amount of heavies with added separation and you can really reduce arrival rates. Your friend at Sao Paulo is right that SFO is stuck with the problems unless the airport can get past the NIMBYs and add an additional runway in the bay as you said, which I am in favor of of course. I'd love to see a bridge type of runway, which would reduce the environmental impact.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
jacobin777
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Mon May 21, 2007 11:14 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 13):
QUESTION: Can SFO operate with the 28R for Arrivals, 28L for departures and and Runways 1L or 1R for departures all at the same time? That would seem to be an efficient way of running the airport, then again I have no knowledge about runway ops.



Quoting AS739X (Reply 15):

Technically it does operate this was. The normal departures are 1L/R and arrivals 28L/R.

...most of it depends on the time of day......most departures in the morning are from 1R/1L....I've seen many heavies departing from the 1's......as mentioned above, the 28's are for arrivals..especially in the midmorning on (when most heavies arrive anyway)......

There are simultaneous departures off the 1's while there are planes arriving on the 28's...this speeds things up...


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jacobin777



the photo above, our flight was departing 1R while there was an incoming NW757 on the 28....

Now, unlike LHR, etc. there is rarely a line of 5+ planes taxiing...of my 50-60 times spotting at SFO, I have might have seen a line of 6 planes taxiing for departure only 1-2 times.....usually 2-4 planes..that's about it..

..even with all of the problems SFO has with fog, etc. SFO has the ability to still take on a lot more flights....the fact WN is coming in is some positive proof as part of the reason why WN is coming back is not only because of renegotiated lease rates, but better capabilities of SFO to handle arrivals/departures.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
as739x
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):

I don't think it depends. This is the standard good weather operations. But as we know the common weather changes things more then anything. Afternoon winds often make for 28 departures and arrivals which does reduce arrival rate though, but at a quite time of the day.

Yeah the heavies do depart the 1's, but not with a heavy loads. Other then NRT, I've hardly ever seen a Asia departure from 1R. The Euro flights do use 1R sometimes, but not very often. Even BA or VS need to lighter then average for a 1R departure.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 12:43 am

What about SFO-CDG, I didnt see that listed
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 12:44 am

Did UA drop ATL-SFO?
 
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CV880
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 12:44 am

When the afternoon 'westerlies' get strong, as it has been of late, the departures frequently shift to 28. When it occurs in the early afternoon, the queues for departure can get quite long. Winds usually subside in the evening, allowing return to normal 1L/R departures. The positive fact is that this scenario occurs in clear weather. Major backups occur when fog obscures the approaches to 28L/R, then there are the rainy day approaches on 19L/R, inbound over OAK, which are confined to a few months in the winter.
 
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CV880
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 19):
Did UA drop ATL-SFO?

UA790 @ 11:00AM, SFO-ATL
 
UAL777UK
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 18):
What about SFO-CDG, I didnt see that listed

Thats history unfortunately!
 
as739x
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 18):

Was discontinued a while back

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
jacobin777
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 17):
I don't think it depends. This is the standard good weather operations. But as we know the common weather changes things more then anything. Afternoon winds often make for 28 departures and arrivals which does reduce arrival rate though, but at a quite time of the day.

..true..I should have added that in my discussion...most of the operations are obviously due to weather patterns, but those are "typical" days and weather patterns.....

as I've said, I've spotted and flown out of SFO one too many times..and what I have mentioned is the "standard" way SFO operates...of course, there are times planes arrive on the 19's


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jacobin777



and there are rare times when even heavies arrive on the 1's (spectacular views!) and 10's.....

Quoting AS739X (Reply 17):
Yeah the heavies do depart the 1's, but not with a heavy loads. Other then NRT, I've hardly ever seen a Asia departure from 1R. The Euro flights do use 1R sometimes, but not very often. Even BA or VS need to lighter then average for a 1R departure.

....most heavies such as UA, NW, JL and NH depart noon/early afternoon, but by then, its back to the "usual" ops (i.e. departures on the 28)....now fellow A.net member did have a JL flight during the winter take off from the 19's!! It was a fairly light load B744..in fact, he has insisted that it even rotated off before crossing the 28 intersection! Being that he does have a pilots license (at least was working on one), I assume he knows what he's talking about...

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 18):
What about SFO-CDG, I didnt see that listed

....SFO-CDG ended a couple of years ago....loads were rather poor..AA ended SJC-CDG in 2001 only a few months after starting the route because the route was doing so poorly...
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AeroWesty
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 24):
now fellow A.net member did have a JL flight during the winter take off from the 19's!! It was a fairly light load B744..in fact, he has insisted that it even rotated off before crossing the 28 intersection! Being that he does have a pilots license (at least was working on one), I assume he knows what he's talking about...

From the layout of the 19s in the drawing below, I find that nearly impossible. I've taken off on the 19s in a 727, and it took far longer than that to take off, screaming over the hills the entire way. However, I must put in the standard disclaimer, I'm not a pilot--this is just my observation as a passenger whose home airport was SFO for a number of decades.



I wonder how many feet it is from the usable edge of whichever 19 they took off from to the intersection of the 28's. It's awfully short! Remember that Pan Am clipped the old platform at the end of the 1's with a 747 circa 1971 (before the days when there were runway length markers so they could tell how far along they were).
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legacyins
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 24):
....SFO-CDG ended a couple of years ago....loads were rather poor..

The loads were great. It was the yeilds that sucked.
 
LAXintl
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 24):
....SFO-CDG ended a couple of years ago....loads were rather poor..



Quoting Legacyins (Reply 26):
The loads were great. It was the yeilds that sucked.

Yes loads were very strong, revenue was not.

Matter of fact annual average load factors were astounding 83.3% and 86.7% for 2004 and 2005, one of the stronger ones across the UA network those years.
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UnitedFlyer
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 12:19 pm

I heard from a frequent SFO user that the UAX remote terminal has been closed....I can't imagine that is even possible with the amount of useage.....
 
timz
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RE:

Tue May 22, 2007 12:34 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 25):
how many feet it is from the usable edge of whichever 19 they took off from to the intersection

On 19L, 3300 ft to the centerline of 28R. That's from the runway end, so subtract a bit for the planelength.

So maybe the wind was 190 at 90.

[Edited 2007-05-22 05:36:44]
 
planecrazy2
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 12:40 pm

Quoting UnitedFlyer (Reply 28):
I heard from a frequent SFO user that the UAX remote terminal has been closed....I can't imagine that is even possible with the amount of useage.....

I believe it's been closed for quite a while now. Here is the current layout:

http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,1121,00.html
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OH-LGA
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 12:41 pm

Quoting UnitedFlyer (Reply 28):
I heard from a frequent SFO user that the UAX remote terminal has been closed....I can't imagine that is even possible with the amount of useage.....

It is indeed true. It closed down February of 2006... the remote terminal building has been razed and is completely wiped off the map. UAX operations now arrive and depart from the old Shuttle concourse (Gates 76A, 76B, 77A, 77B, 78A/B and 79), as well at Gate 71 and Gate 87A (converted from the bus staging area to a EMB-only parking stand).

This was made possible by schedule optimization and moving to more of a rolling bank type operation. Instead of having huge peaks and valleys in the schedule, they are spread out across the day to utilize the 9 UAX parking stands that are available to the fullest extent possible.
Head in the clouds... yet feet planted firmly on the ground.
 
jacobin777
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 4:01 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 25):
From the layout of the 19s in the drawing below, I find that nearly impossible. I've taken off on the 19s in a 727, and it took far longer than that to take off, screaming over the hills the entire way. However, I must put in the standard disclaimer, I'm not a pilot--this is just my observation as a passenger whose home airport was SFO for a number of decades.

.......apologies guys..it was right after the 28's..not before.....feel a bit dumb  butthead  now..

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 27):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 24):
....SFO-CDG ended a couple of years ago....loads were rather poor..

Quoting Legacyins (Reply 26):
The loads were great. It was the yeilds that sucked.

Yes loads were very strong, revenue was not.

Matter of fact annual average load factors were astounding 83.3% and 86.7% for 2004 and 2005, one of the stronger ones across the UA network those years.

...my bad.... crazy ....I meant AA's SJC-CDG loads were rather poor...IIRC it was a money loser from the word "go"....


gosh...twice big "bonehead" errors in one post......I think I should take the evening off.. Sad
"Up the Irons!"
 
Sydscott
Topic Author
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 27):
Matter of fact annual average load factors were astounding 83.3% and 86.7% for 2004 and 2005, one of the stronger ones across the UA network those years.

So how does Air France do in terms of yields & loads into SFO? Since UA pulled off the route they surely would have been able to increase their yields as well as to monopolise premium passengers?

Quoting AS739X (Reply 15):
add an additional runway in the bay as you said

Does SFO have a big problem with Nimbys at the moment? Surely it wouldn't be as bad as somewhere like LAX in terms of getting an approval for doing something?
 
johnboy
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 8:41 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 33):
Does SFO have a big problem with Nimbys at the moment? Surely it wouldn't be as bad as somewhere like LAX in terms of getting an approval for doing something?

LOL, think LAX NIMBY'S times 100! The big difference would be the various sacred space drum circles/ mass "die-in's" on the runways representing all the species wiped out in SF Bay from extending the runways into the Bay.  bigthumbsup 
 
Sydscott
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 8:52 pm

Quoting Johnboy (Reply 34):
The big difference would be the various sacred space drum circles/ mass "die-in's" on the runways representing all the species wiped out in SF Bay from extending the runways into the Bay

LOL That's piss funny!! Are you serious??
 
as739x
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 33):

SFO has issue's with NIMBY's when an idea pops in planners heads while laying in bed  Smile

Right now there are no to many plans though, so I have not heard much. Maybe Legacy has some information on things.

Quoting Johnboy (Reply 34):

My point. Build it like a bridge so you only have pylons extending into the water. But thats my idea!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 25):

I watched Kitty Hawk departing for Fort Wayne,Indiana off 19L, which is a bit longer as you know. Granted its impossible to judge how much cargo was on it, but they had the fuel for a 4 hour flight.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
AeroWesty
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 9:50 pm

Quoting AS739X (Reply 36):
I watched Kitty Hawk departing for Fort Wayne,Indiana off 19L, which is a bit longer as you know. Granted its impossible to judge how much cargo was on it, but they had the fuel for a 4 hour flight.

I don't doubt it at all. Just not a 744 carrying a commercial load fueled for NRT against 10 hours of headwinds. But the issue has been addressed, it was after the intersection, which seems much more reasonable.
International Homo of Mystery
 
as739x
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Tue May 22, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 37):

Sorry Aero. Misunderstood what you had said.

I agree, not a chance a JAL 747 hit Vr before crossing the intersection.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
SailorOrion
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RE: United Hub At SFO

Wed May 23, 2007 12:17 am

UA might serve SFO-MUC next year  Smile

SailorOrion

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