gilesdavies
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BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 7:38 pm

British Airways has given very strong indications that it intends to fly all Premium class flights to the USA from next year. Primarily to JFK and these will operate from continental Europe... It seems BA has no interest in competing with European and US airlines for Economy traffic when the Open Skys treaty comes into effect next year, and only wants the cream of the crop.

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/pro...x?Feed=FT&Date=20070518&ID=6926371

They have stated they would be interested in operating routes to New York from Paris, Zurich, Frankfurt, Milan or Madrid, and would be flown by aircraft like the 757 and 767.

This seems feasiable as BA is continually receiving new short haul aircraft from Airbus and these could be used to replace 752's and 762's that currently operate on European flights and be switched to Transatlantic routes. Both these types of aircraft within the BA fleet are definately showing their age and would need a good overhaul to bring up to standard! I am also wondering if the A319 could be put on to Transatlantic routes? - Like Privatair does...

IMHO as the next airline CEO waiting in the wings, this seems to be a wise move by BA and their current Premium offering is considered to be among one of the best flying accross the Atlantic and if it can offer a similar product on these types of flights they could be onto a winner. I would be interested to know what kind of frequencies they would be looking to offer on flights to major financial centres in Europe, like Frankfurt and Paris. As I would expect airlines like LH and AF to have the upper hand in this respect for the business traveller.
 
OHLHD
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 8:15 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
could be used to replace 752's and 762's

763 , no B762´s only.


Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
I am also wondering if the A319 could be put on to Transatlantic routes?

Yes but they would need an extra Center Tank to fly across the Atlantic.  

[Edited 2007-05-20 13:42:04]
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 8:38 pm

A very shrewd move IMO. ??

Beat the new upstarts at their own game, the Eoss, Silver and Max Jets.

BA is optimised for this approach; not only do they have an enviable reputation, their already impressive service levels can only improve on a dedicated F/J service, plus they have interline, alliance perks and their own frequent flier programme, some of which are lacking in the Premium-only carriers.

Avoiding the 'Y' class bloodbath after openskies is a wise and calculated move.

I think the shear propensity of "Premium" carriers in/out of the UK is indicative of the fact that BA haven't switched on to this earlier.

If I was a director at Silverjet et al, I'd be finding it hard to digest my breakfast this morning. ?? ??

Shamu

[Edited 2007-05-20 13:42:04]

[Edited 2007-05-20 13:42:45]
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
trent1000
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 8:41 pm

Seat configuration would be interesting. Although this shouldn't matter too much, I wonder if there'd be a preference for forward cabin seats rather than sitting business class down the back. Any idea how comparable fares would be with those currently available?
 
SkyGazer
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 8:46 pm

Parallels to Concorde anyone? BA will have all premium class service for LHR-JFK again, except subsonic this time  Wink
Types flown: B738, B772ER, B773, B77W, B744, A310, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A388
 
aussiestu
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 9:16 pm

Seems like a good move to me and surprised BA has not thought of this earlier. Open Skies is certainly going to change the way of flying for many airlines. With a good advertising campaign this should make money!
 
gilesdavies
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights T

Sun May 20, 2007 9:23 pm

Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 4):
Parallels to Concorde anyone? BA will have all premium class service for LHR-JFK again, except subsonic this time



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 2):
If I was a director at Silverjet et al, I'd be finding it hard to digest my breakfast this morning. ?? ??

Reading the press release, I would assume BA are only interested in chasing the Premium traffic within Europe and I think the UK flights between the US and UK will remain unchanged.

With BA offering up to 10 flights a day between LHR and JFK/EWR they probably have as much capacity as they require and can provide the premium traveller with the frequencies they require.

I do not think the likes of EOS and SilverJet need not worry as they have fares at about 50% lower that BA J class and about 20% of F class. I wouldn't even call MaxJet a premium market carrier and their product is no better than Premium Economy on the likes of VS and BA.

One thing BA would not be willing to compromise on, is cost and will not get into a price war with European carriers to the US, and just simply match their fares. They will simply position themselves as a carrier offering a better service than what the likes of LH and AF in J and F, and try and grab some of their market.

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 1):
763 , no B762´s only.

Sorry thats what I meant.

I assume the BA 752's would have the range. Even though they have some of the first delivered, I remember when BA used to fly BHX-YYZ and BHX-JFK with a 752.

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 8):
Yup.. Air Canada does this from Heathrow on one route.

True, but AC only fly the A319 between LHR and St Johns, which is only about 5hrs flying time and there is a number of A319 flights within Europe flying similar lengths to that... While JFK still has about 2-3hrs flying time to go by the time it flys over St Johns! Not sure if the A319 quite has the legs, thats why I asked the question earlier.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
Using a hypothetical 787-8LR, BA could extend this concept worldwide - say SYD-LHR or even launch SYD-DFW/ORD/JFK services to tie in to AA's domestic feed at those three hubs...

Premium traffic on the LHR-SYD route is not good at all and offers very low yields for BA as stated in previous threads in the past. Also BA only has open skies agreement to fly between Europe and the USA, not from any country to the USA. But I suppose they could operate something like NZ does and fly LHR-LAX-SYD.

[Edited 2007-05-20 14:39:41]
 
Ekfan
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 4):
BA will have all premium class service for LHR-JFK again, except subsonic this time

I believe BA have specified that there will not be premium only flights from the UK, this will be only between JFK and mainland European destinations; I for one doubt that there are very many destinations aside from LHR that have enough premium demand to fill a B767-300, it would seem better to use the B757s or even B737-700ER/A319LRs on these routes.
 
swiftski
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
I am also wondering if the A319 could be put on to Transatlantic routes?

Yup.. Air Canada does this from Heathrow on one route.
 
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Stitch
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 9:30 pm

Using a hypothetical 787-8LR, BA could extend this concept worldwide - say SYD-LHR or even launch SYD-DFW/ORD/JFK services to tie in to AA's domestic feed at those three hubs...
 
rutankrd
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 9:38 pm

Did they read my post yesterday on this

Quote:
May just be a BA publicity stunt but since they only want those travelling on other peoples money could they actually use those new A32x orders for A319CJ with Club /First seats only and with aircraft based in say Frankfurt Munich and Paris rather than as every one else seems to have considered utilising 767 or 777 ?
Just a thought !
Ever since Concorde withdrawal and the use of Private by LH and KLM and the Air France dedicate aircraft it has been a mistry to me why BA an airline renowned for service in upper level still hasn't introduced a similar offering .
 
Beaucaire
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 9:45 pm

In France the start-up "L'Avion" would be severerly hit-they had a hard time reaching "cruising" speed with low occupancy-rates for the first six months.Their only flight from Orly to New York would suffer a strong blow !
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dutchjet
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 6):

True, but AC only fly the A319 between LHR and St Johns, which is only about 5hrs flying time and there is a number of A319 flights within Europe flying similar lengths to that... While JFK still has about 2-3hrs flying time to go by the time it flys over St Johns! Not sure if the A319 quite has the legs, thats why I asked the question earlier.



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 8):

Yup.. Air Canada does this from Heathrow on one route.

BA's standard issue A319s do not have the range to operate from the UK or continental Europe to US cities, its simply too far and beyond the aircraft's operating range with any type of economic payload. Also consider North Atlantic winds and ATC issues (especially in northeastern US cities)......it simply would not work. Privatair flies specially equipped A319CJs (and BBJS....not 73G or 738) on its all-biz transatlantic services (and rumor has it that the KLM/Privatair flight is visiting Gander more often than hoped). As for the Heathrow-St Johns service, please take a look at a map.....St Johns is about 1000 miles closer to Europe than any major US city and within range of AC's A319s (and I dont know if BA's A319s have the same specs as the AC birds.)
 
B707Stu
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
IMHO as the next airline CEO waiting in the wings, this seems to be a wise move by BA and their current Premium offering is considered to be among one of the best flying accross the Atlantic and if it can offer a similar product on these types of flights they could be onto a winner. I would be interested to know what kind of frequencies they would be looking to offer on flights to major financial centres in Europe, like Frankfurt and Paris. As I would expect airlines like LH and AF to have the upper hand in this respect for the business traveller.

Compete with AF and LH for their premium product? I don't think it's a great idea. Here's why? First of all I'd fly LH anyday over BA as I find their service and food much better. Same with food on AF though their service is, at times, undependable.

But chances are the greatest number of frequent travellers on the CDG and FRA routes, for example, are loyal to LH or AF for mileage and the perks they receive from their loyalty program. I don't see a French or German business person choosing to fly BA because they like their service better when they'd lose their mileage to their main program. Also, let's see how BA can match LH at FRA, for example, for customer service. I just don't see it. They'll likely get AA frequent flyers, as long as the miles will completely count, which is highly unlikely since AA wants you on AA over the water and thusly doesn't reward mileage on BA over the water, etc... BA may well be thinking and knowing something I don't, which is probably true because I'm way out of the loop, BUT, my initial instinct is it's a stretch, though I hope they prove me wrong.
 
vv701
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Both these types of aircraft within the BA fleet are definately showing their age and would need a good overhaul to bring up to standard!

If the 'standard' is set by the likes of Silver Jet this is hardly an issue.

Silverjet started their operations with 762 G-SJET (constructor's number 23624, line number 144). This aircraft is approximately three years older than BA's oldest 763, G-BNWA (24333, 265) and is more than ten years older than BA's youngest 763 G-BZHC (29232,708).

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Silver Jet's second and third 762s (24736, 296 and 24757, 299) are both older than fifteen (or more than 70 per cent) of BA's operational fleet of twenty-one 763s.

BA's oldest 752, G-BPEC (24882, 323) is younger than both of Silver Jet's 752s (24290, 212 and 24636, 259).

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
This seems feasiable as BA is continually receiving new short haul aircraft from Airbus and these could be used to replace 752's and 762's that currently operate on European flights and be switched to Transatlantic routes.

Also BA have seven 763s out on lease to QF (VH-ZXA to 'XG). When these leases expire BA have two choices - sell them or find a new use for them.
 
EDDB
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 10:23 pm

Hm.... I have my doubts....

How do they want to compete with LHs First Class Terminal for example? Imagine how much money they would have to spend for establishing an ops outside their home country (lounges, manpower, maintenance...), and all that for maybe 1 or 2 flights a day?

Sounds like a bad deal to me....
 
CXfirst
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 1):
Yes but they would need an extra Center Tank to fly across the Atlantic.

If it is all J/F there will be little baggage. More space for center tank, unless they want loads of cargo

-CXfirst
 
Kevin777
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 2):
Beat the new upstarts at their own game, the Eoss, Silver and Max Jets.



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 2):
BA is optimised for this approach; not only do they have an enviable reputation, their already impressive service levels can only improve on a dedicated F/J service, plus they have interline, alliance perks and their own frequent flier programme, some of which are lacking in the Premium-only carriers.

Yep, BA stands much stronger in this market than any of the new and hopeful all-J carriers

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 6):
I do not think the likes of EOS and SilverJet need not worry as they have fares at about 50% lower that BA J class and about 20% of F class.

Oh I think they should worry (worry on top of already worrying about their business as it is now). The fare levels of Eos and SilverJet are not viable in an economic sense - rather, they are a necessity to attract customers. BA would offer so much more than these - for instance, Silver and Eos (and MAx) only offers one flight a day; not too attractive for many J-pax. Even if BA only offered once-a-day all J-flights, they would always be able to offer extra frequencies on their "normal" flights (via LHR).

Kevin777  Smile
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mutu
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting EDDB (Reply 15):
How do they want to compete with LHs First Class Terminal for example? Imagine how much money they would have to spend for establishing an ops outside their home country (lounges, manpower, maintenance...), and all that for maybe 1 or 2 flights a day?

I think you miss the point..the HUB would be JFK serving LHR 6/7 times daily plus these new frequencies. Given that BA own JFK T7, not going to be an issue.

For a single all premium flight a day, facilities at any of the european airports would be fine. We are not talking about accomodating 300 pax on a flight. BA will have lounge facilities etc in place or codeshare facilities. OK, not like LH at FRA, but not lke BA at T5 either!

Worth a try I think anyway. There are certainly a significant number of premium travellers transiting LHR on BA to cross the pond, who could now fly direct and transit at JFK onto AA metal, so dont rule it out...yet...
 
CXfirst
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 10:53 pm

Will they be using the same F/J product that they are currently using? It would be fun to see the club world seat and possibly FIRST class seat (dought it) on a narrowbody (ie. the 757).

Not often that you fly premium and get put at the back of the bus..........

-CXfirst
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting EDDB (Reply 15):
Imagine how much money they would have to spend for establishing an ops outside their home country (lounges, manpower, maintenance...)

Ba already has staff, maintenance and lounges in FRA CDG and MAD which could easily absorb another couple of flights a day.

Quoting EDDB (Reply 15):
How do they want to compete with LHs First Class Terminal

There was no mention of First Class in the article, Business class and Premium economy.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 14):
Also BA have seven 763s out on lease to QF (VH-ZXA to 'XG).

Are these aircraft still owned by BA? I thought they went to a leasing company.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 6):
I assume the BA 752's would have the range. Even though they have some of the first delivered

Although BA had some of the first B757, these were all sold to DHL. BA s 13 B757 are all ETOPS capable.
 
georgiaame
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights T

Sun May 20, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
It seems BA has no interest in competing with European and US airlines for Economy traffic when the Open Skys treaty comes into effect next year, and only wants the cream of the crop.

A brilliant move, IMHO! The primary function of the airline, or any industry, is to make money! This sounds like one very astute approach, and their market clearly does exist. (For business class at least; for first, I haven't a clue!)

There is another thread asking if Delta has finally "gotten it right" with their new paint job, and their other minor changes in their inflight service. I wish those writers would compare the thinking process that went on in the BA board room in coming up with a decision to go for "the cream of the crop", with what appears to be going on at Delta. Make your product something the customer looks forward to using, and you are going to do well. The Asian airlines learned this ages ago (Singapore in the forefront), Swiss and Lufthansa put their toes into the Newark waters, and I can only wish BA success. Hope I get to use the service out of ATL one day.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
abrelosojos
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 4):
Parallels to Concorde anyone? BA will have all premium class service for LHR-JFK again, except subsonic this time  Wink

... though, I would put a  Sad after the subsonic  Wink.

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
airbazar
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
It seems BA has no interest in competing with European and US airlines for Economy traffic when the Open Skys treaty comes into effect next year, and only wants the cream of the crop.

Ironic considering BA are the ones driving down the yields in the trans-atlantic market by flooding the market with "cheap" seats. In virtually every city they serve, BA almost always has the most seats and cheapest fares. Maybe it would be a good thing for the industry if they pulled back a little.
 
baw716
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Sun May 20, 2007 11:35 pm

I see a can of worms opening up here...

If BA does what I am reading here...there will be a serious Premium passenger war in Europe; which I believe will ultimately erode yields. Open skies is only as good as the access to the airports. There is no possible way that, say, Air France, will be able to operate LHR-JFK because of the slot restrictions at Heathrow. Absent an ability to compete in a like fashion; how does everyone here think that everyone else will respond?

I know how I would (as an armchair CEO and former airline manager...)...and it would be ugly for BA.

One thing is for certain: Premium only flights are only going to increase in number. It's become a very popular (and profitable) concept for those who have the services. However, BA's poaching in someone else's backyard...this is not going to go over well.

Before I give my answer; I'd like to know what everyone else thinks. I have a hunch I may end up starting a different thread with this one.

cheers,
baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
atmx2000
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting B707Stu (Reply 13):
They'll likely get AA frequent flyers, as long as the miles will completely count, which is highly unlikely since AA wants you on AA over the water and thusly doesn't reward mileage on BA over the water, etc... BA may well be thinking and knowing something I don't, which is probably true because I'm way out of the loop, BUT, my initial instinct is it's a stretch, though I hope they prove me wrong.

I don't think AA will be very happy about this. BA plans on acting like a international hub carrier out of JFK. US airlines would have a hard time getting enough slots at LHR to respond in kind.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 24):
However, BA's poaching in someone else's backyard...this is not going to go over well.

As the lo-co's have done exactly the same thing to all legacy carriers over the past 20 years. I used to resent the likes of Easyjet coming along, big, brash and boldly gate crashing the party on routes other carriers had spent years nurturing only to share the benefits.

Then along came the "premium" carriers, trying to do exactly the same to the F and J customer base.

Nowadays, however, I see that the whitewash and fallout I feared hasn't really happened. Most legacies are still here and most lo-cos have gone from strength to strength.

It all, IMHO, boils down to simple competition, which in this industry can only mean lower prices at the gate for the travelling public. Just as long as safety is never compromised at the expense of cost pressure, I am sure you agree it can only be a good thing for all.

The legacies have been pushed and battered by the new boys; it's time the sleeping giants awoke and fought back.

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
jfk777
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 12:35 am

When BA starts such service from CDG, FRA or other city flying a 767 is a sad statement against the 777 or A340 by the local airline. I think BA should buy another European airline as it may be taken over if it doesn't, buy Iberia or SAS. Lufthansa has SWISS and AF has KLM(the best option BA had), BA needs to bulk up outside the UK in Europe, Finnair would be nice too.
 
Rivet42
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting B707Stu (Reply 13):
But chances are the greatest number of frequent travellers on the CDG and FRA routes, for example, are loyal to LH or AF for mileage and the perks they receive from their loyalty program. I don't see a French or German business person choosing to fly BA because they like their service better when they'd lose their mileage to their main program. Also, let's see how BA can match LH at FRA, for example, for customer service. I just don't see it. They'll likely get AA frequent flyers, as long as the miles will completely count, which is highly unlikely since AA wants you on AA over the water and thusly doesn't reward mileage on BA over the water, etc...

I think this is the biggest problem. If BA are serious about this plan, they must be assuming that there are enough transatlantic business travellers who are NOT already tied into a loyalty/FF scheme, and who would be happy to switch carriers. Well, that seems very speculative to me. Are there enough American business travellers flying to Europe already on BA via LHR to justify direct services? I suppose only BA will know for sure, but their US competitors (and AA) certainly won't take this lying down, and it could indeed provoke a very bloody premium traffic war, which will hurt everyone, including BA...
I travel, therefore I am.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 12:43 am

I'm not sure if British Airways wants to fly premium-class service using a 757-200--it would essentially turn into a "writ large" version of United Airlines' p.s. service with 1x1 First and 2x2 Business class seating that's not compatible hardware-wise with other premium class cabin seats used on BA's 777 and 747 fleets. A more likely solution is to modify a number of 767-300(ER) planes so they can install proper First and Club World seating.
 
ozvirginuk
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 24):
There is no possible way that, say, Air France, will be able to operate LHR-JFK because of the slot restrictions at Heathrow. Absent an ability to compete in a like fashion; how does everyone here think that everyone else will respond?

Not strictly true. AF, LH, BD, TP, IB all have loads of slots at LHR already, which they use for the European services. What's to stop them using those slots for a N YC service instead, and scaling back some of their European routes?? The only real restriction is slots at the other end (JFK in particular).

I think we will definitely see a LHR-JFK service from AF, LH and possibly IB. London has the largest amount of premium traffic out of Europe, so everyone is going to want a piece of a high yield pie, even if it means a reduction in that particular airlines' European frequencies, or a reduction in NYC services from their home base to make space for it.

As far as a price war goes, I think that BA and VS have products which are fare superior to those being offered by our European and US counterparts, and those products can (and do) command a higher yielding fare. Even in the current climate (pre open skies), Upper Class and Club World prices remain higher, and I hav e no doubt that they will continue to do so. Quality comes at a price.
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting EDDB (Reply 15):
How do they want to compete with LHs First Class Terminal for example?

isn't the first class terminal designed for connecting traffic ? BA would serve originating traffic. And who says BA will fly from Frankfurt or Munich. Why would they compete head on with an established carrier. IMO they'll go after secondary cities like Düsseldorf, Hamburg and Berlin and that across the entire continent not just Germany and France. Fly point to point instead off connecting trough a hub.
 
planemad
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 5:01 am

Shame really. I'm sure Concorde would have benefitted out of Open Skies with more chance to get more passengers aboard especially in places like FRA!

Sam D  Smile
 
BA787
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 5:07 am

This is fantastic news. It's not long ago that I made a suggestion similar to this but for their European network. I think BA really could embarass these carriers that have started with their service.

Staying away from LHR would aid this no end Big grin

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 28):

They have plenty of FF people themselves. Part of the reason they do all those LHR-JFK flights is for the business passengers. Also, I think it could work to mass developing countries such as China.
 
comorin
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RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights T

Mon May 21, 2007 5:38 am

It;s Concorde in Slo-Mo....

I'd rather fly upstairs in a 747 than a 757 across the Pond.
 
COEI2007
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:33 am

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 6:40 am

Very interesting move from BA, if it happens. They are already focused on the J traveller already, as their 777's only have a small Y cabin. A 767 in all Club World and First would be nice!
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 20):
Are these aircraft still owned by BA? I thought they went to a leasing company.

As far as I know G-BNWE/VH-ZXA, 'WF/'XB and 'WG/'XC were sold by BA to Opal Leasing, immediately leased back by BA and then sub-leased by QF around three weeks later. On the other hand I believe G-BNWJ/VH-ZXD, 'WK/'XE, 'WL/'XF and 'WP/'XG are all owned by BA and leased by QF.
 
ha763
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Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:36 pm

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting B707Stu (Reply 13):
I just don't see it. They'll likely get AA frequent flyers, as long as the miles will completely count, which is highly unlikely since AA wants you on AA over the water and thusly doesn't reward mileage on BA over the water, etc...

The lack of codesharing and FFP tie-up on trans-atlantic flights is due to regulatory roadblocks, not becuase AA doesn't want to codeshare or link up their FFP with BA. AA and BA were denied regulatory approval from the DOT for anti-trust immunity twice and therefore do not codeshare or allow the earning of FFP miles on those flights. With the new open skies agreement, it is only a matter of time before AA and BA get anti-trust immunity and begin codesharing on trans-atlantic flights and allowing each others' FFP's to earn miles on those flights.
 
Baron52ta
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:52 am

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 8:53 am

Quoting Aussiestu (Reply 5):
Seems like a good move to me and surprised BA has not thought of this earlier. Open Skies is certainly going to change the way of flying for many airlines. With a good advertising campaign this should make money!

This isn't even an original idea, ANA has those new 737's with premium seating right from the factory to do a similar operation
 
highflyer9790
Posts: 1189
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:21 am

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 10:05 am

So i assume then we will be seeing BA 757s and maybe 767s with APB winglets?  wink 
121
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18991
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 10:31 am

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 37):
With the new open skies agreement, it is only a matter of time before AA and BA get anti-trust immunity and begin codesharing on trans-atlantic flights and allowing each others' FFP's to earn miles on those flights.

Even when the regulatory roadblocks disappear, would BA really benefit by codesharing on AA-operated flights to/from LHR? BA already has plenty of capacity between LHR and the USA so why make it easier to use AA on those sectors? Where they need to codeshare, i.e. on domestic sectors in the US, they already can.
 
georgiaame
Posts: 951
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:55 am

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights T

Mon May 21, 2007 11:26 am

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 24):
f BA does what I am reading here...there will be a serious Premium passenger war in Europe;

Competition is GOOD!!! If you provide a superior product that the customer wants to utilize, you do well. Period. I have read all the BS that the airlines make their money on J/F tickets, and economy is an after thought. Well, if it is an after thought, why the hell do they provide so many seats in the back, with so few up front? I'm all ears. Answers any one? Hello? Anyone out there?

Economy flies the plane. If BA chooses to undersell the Euro competition with "cheap" to fill their planes, and they can still make a profit, go for it. Some of us weirdos actually are willing to pay for service, which sadly, is virtually non existent on American carriers, and few and far between on European carriers. (Of course, Swiss and AF do come to mind...) If BA can make a go at pseudo Concorde service with an all business/first product, great. And if it is supplemented with a decent Y class product, I say go for it. And buy a couple of 747-8s, while you are at it, please!
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
baw716
Posts: 1460
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights T

Mon May 21, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 41):
Economy flies the plane.

Forgive me for disagreeing with you. Of course, if you are or have been an airline analyst (as I have), if you bet on Economy, you lose every time. Yield management is a balancing act between high yield and low yield traffic and inventory is adjusted to maximize revenue on each flight. The reason why carriers are fighting so hard for the business traveler is that they not only pay the higher fares, but are generally year round travelers, while a good many of those who fly in the back aren't. The economics of a particular route are predicated on generating as much high yield revenue as you can, then fill up the plane with the cheap stuff. So goes the theory.

If you follow that logic, then you might ask yourself the question, why are carriers placing "business class" only flights on certain transatlantic routes? The short answer is that, most of this service is operated by Privatair, and they provide a killer product. There are no major transatlantic carriers that are offering a premium only product. It is the newcomers who think that they have something to offer. The problem is that that these guys are starting to erode some of BA's high yield market share, especially between the NYC area and London (which is their bread and butter route). BA has elected to offer schedule and an excellent product to compete with the "one flight per day" operations put on by Eos, Silverjet and at the bottom of the barrel, Maxjet.

The problem with BA offering an all premium product is that their cost base is much higher. Now, if they operate narrowbody (Airbus 319LR) type of product, all Club World between LHR and JFK and call it a shuttle and tactically place the flights at peak travel periods, that bird would be full all the time. Once you get out of LHR, the business markets change dramatically. BA would not be able to fly, say, FRA-JFK against LH with a 767 in an all premium configuration and compete. LH would simply place additional frequency and BA would not stand a chance in hell of making that route profitable.

IF BA is smart, they would take the all Club World approach ex LHR to points between JFK and ORD (btw, the aircraft from LHR could almost make it to the west coast if configured correctly) where there would be demand for such a product, downsize the aircraft used across the Atlantic as appropriate for the markets where these flights would siphon off the high yield traffic and that would be a winning approach.

However, taking an all business product and placing it on CDG-JFK is suicide.

Now, if BA places a three cabin 767 (J/PY/Y) from interior points in Europe to JFK, of course the number of frequencies between the interior points and LHR would have to come down a bit to compensate for the loss of traffic...maybe. There could be an opportunity for BA to cherry pick traffic that would connect at LHR, thereby allowing them to free up their slots at LHR for other things. If this were the play, then it would be utter brillance, since, as it has been said, the other carriers are free to use those slots to whereever they want (especially now under open skies). The most troublesome problem BA has at LHR is the slot restriction problem (IMHO). Again, I say that yield management is a balancing act and they will need traffic from all sources to make that kind of an operation viable.

One thing is certain: Open skies is going to change the face of Europe-USA flying...to be certain.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
B707Stu
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:15 pm

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 6:48 pm

Quoting Mutu (Reply 18):
I think you miss the point..the HUB would be JFK serving LHR 6/7 times daily plus these new frequencies. Given that BA own JFK T7, not going to be an issue.



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 25):
I don't think AA will be very happy about this. BA plans on acting like a international hub carrier out of JFK. US airlines would have a hard time getting enough slots at LHR to respond in kind.

OK, I don't think you're getting the point. Terminal 7 has limited gates. As it is if you arrive on IB's later flight from Madrid or BA around 6 - 7pm you often wait up to an hour for a gate. The Terminal is over-utilized as it is. It's not a question of landing slots, it's a question of gate space.

Quoting PlaneMad (Reply 32):
Shame really. I'm sure Concorde would have benefitted out of Open Skies with more chance to get more passengers aboard especially in places like FRA!

Sam D

I didn't realize Concorde could make it to FRA without stopping!

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 37):
The lack of codesharing and FFP tie-up on trans-atlantic flights is due to regulatory roadblocks, not becuase AA doesn't want to codeshare or link up their FFP with BA. AA and BA were denied regulatory approval from the DOT for anti-trust immunity twice and therefore do not codeshare or allow the earning of FFP miles on those flights. With the new open skies agreement, it is only a matter of time before AA and BA get anti-trust immunity and begin codesharing on trans-atlantic flights and allowing each others' FFP's to earn miles on those flights.

Are you sure their inability to currently allow miles on each other's flights relates to this? I'm not so sure. The anti-trust immunity, I thought, was more related to a KL/NW type of relationship they were seeking. I'm not convinced AA can't give mileage now. Afterall, the JFK-MAN flight is a code share.
 
hotelmode
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:31 am

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting B707Stu (Reply 43):
OK, I don't think you're getting the point. Terminal 7 has limited gates. As it is if you arrive on IB's later flight from Madrid or BA around 6 - 7pm you often wait up to an hour for a gate. The Terminal is over-utilized as it is. It's not a question of landing slots, it's a question of gate space.

T7 only has a capacity problem for aircraft larger than 767's, 757 and 767's can use 4 stands that 777/340's and 747s cant. It would only take chucking Icelandair etc out to create plenty of space.
 
hotelmode
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:31 am

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting Ozvirginuk (Reply 30):
Not strictly true. AF, LH, BD, TP, IB all have loads of slots at LHR already, which they use for the European services. What's to stop them using those slots for a N YC service instead, and scaling back some of their European routes?? The only real restriction is slots at the other end (JFK in particular).

The slots those airlines hold are completely useless for LH operations, they will all be scheduled with 1hr turnrounds and spread through the day not at the LH peaks. Some jiggling around with partners could create some useful slot pairs but then they'd be losing feed into their own hubs from one of the highest yielding airports in the world.

All this talk about problems finding traffic in Paris/Fra etc isnt the whole story, BA has major contracts with New York/London based banks/companies and institutions who would love direct service to their other significant offices in Europe within BA's deal with them. Their senior staff may fly to LHR 5 times a month but also go to FRA twice and CDG once. BA have been talking to them for a long while about these sorts of flights.
 
A340600
Posts: 3893
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 10:24 pm

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 7:50 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 27):
When BA starts such service from CDG, FRA or other city flying a 767 is a sad statement against the 777 or A340 by the local airline.

How? The 767 is one of the most comfortable planes across the atlantic as long as airlines sensibly configure it. I'm sure the passengers won't care that they're on a 767 over say an A340.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 41):
I have read all the BS that the airlines make their money on J/F tickets, and economy is an after thought.

It's not BS, it's economic sense.

This move doesn't surprise me in the slightest, especially with the drop in Y traffic BA has seen across the atlantic to places such as JFK. At the end of the day, let VS have the economy passengers and make more money out of one of the best J class products in the world. Extremely sensible move!

[Edited 2007-05-21 12:51:37]
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 8:08 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
I am also wondering if the A319 could be put on to Transatlantic routes?

That was the question. To which I said yes. St Johns IS across the atlantic, i.e. transatlantic.

Therefore no need for this response...

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 12):
As for the Heathrow-St Johns service, please take a look at a map..... St Johns is about 1000 miles closer to Europe than any major US city and within range of AC's A319s

You're given the same answer as me (i.e. "yes", but also been a bit rude.
 
CXfirst
Posts: 2882
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:13 pm

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 8:25 pm

Quoting Comorin (Reply 34):
I'd rather fly upstairs in a 747 than a 757 across the Pond.

Would you want to fly an A320 to LHR in ClubEurope and then on the upper-deck Clubworld to JFK than a direct Clubworld flight to JFK on a 757?

Anyone know if they will use the same J class on these J/F planes. Will they be able to put their current seat in that plane, space wise as well as weight wise?

-CXfirst
 
FLVILLA
Posts: 316
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:07 pm

RE: BA To Offer All Business/First Class Flights To US

Mon May 21, 2007 9:00 pm

Quoting Hotelmode (Reply 45):
All this talk about problems finding traffic in Paris/Fra etc isn't the whole story, BA has major contracts with New York/London based banks/companies and institutions who would love direct service to their other significant offices in Europe within BA's deal with them. Their senior staff may fly to LHR 5 times a month but also go to FRA twice and CDG once. BA have been talking to them for a long while about these sorts of flights.

Bingo ! BA is King of corporate contracts. It would be pretty much guaranteed that BA would have lined up plenty of such contracts to make any EU mainland - US flights economical.

I do see this as a quite a smart move for BA, firstly it was VS who was being rumoured to start these sort of flights but right now they don't have the aircraft and their 787's aren't arriving till '09 so it's quite convenient that BA has some more A32S a/c coming online in the near future allowing the possible removal of some 763's and 752's from intra-europe flights to start these new services across the pond.

Its easy to note from history that BA is a conservative airline in its actions for the most part, I'm sure they've taken a long hard look at every aspect there is when it comes to doing such services. In a way it's using the LHR congestion problems as an advantage in more ways than one !
I hope in life i can work to live, not live to work

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