albird87
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:15 am

A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 12:22 am

Hey folks
been just thinkin about the A380 and also what the procedure would be in an emergency over water. If on land then all the doors (as long as there not blocked) can be opened and slides deploy and the plane gets evacuated. Now if there on water the bottom deck then has no problem as then the slides become rafts like normal but then what about the passengers on the top?? do they then all have to come downstairs to get on the rafts as the top ones will still be slides!!

Anybody have any info on this??
 
speedmarque
Posts: 310
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:37 pm

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 12:24 am

The A380s upper deck doors also has slide/rafts.

Cheers
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 3714
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 12:24 am

I believe that unlike the UD on the 747, the A380 UD will be sliderafts rather than just slides only. Someone correct me if this is wrong.  Wink
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
graphic
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:41 am

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 12:25 am

They wait until the plane sinks to their level. Much safer actually, shaves several minutes of having to brave the open water.
Demand Media fails at life
 
albird87
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:15 am

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 2):
I believe that unlike the UD on the 747, the A380 UD will be sliderafts rather than just slides only. Someone correct me if this is wrong.

But that is what im getting at. If they land on water then the top deck slides will slope down and then people wont be on the raft but rather in the sea. Will they actually have to wait till the plane sinks to get them level or are they very smart liferafts that have slides also!
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 3714
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 4):
But that is what im getting at. If they land on water then the top deck slides will slope down and then people wont be on the raft but rather in the sea. Will they actually have to wait till the plane sinks to get them level or are they very smart liferafts that have slides also!

a) the aircraft would be sitting quite low... the UD on the Whalejet is lower than the UD on a 744.
b) the UD sliderafts are considerably longer than those on the LD. I think they are actually in 2 parts even... a small slide connected to the raft? in which case it would be a slide down to the raft sitting flat on the sea.
c) none of this matters coz if the Whalejet ditches chances are most people are gonna die anyway and those that survive will fit on whatever rafts are useable.
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
jamesjimlb
Posts: 940
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:48 am

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 12:56 am

what does ud and ld mean?

i think the slides might be longer and slide rafts.
The sky is no longer the limit, but the mere minimum
 
jamesbuk
Posts: 3712
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 11:52 pm

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting JamesJimlb (Reply 6):
what does ud and ld mean?

Upper Deck Lower Deck.

Ok so what about the over wing ones then? they are all bent and slope and alsorts of stuff, if that was used as a raft it would capsize would it not?
Is there a video of them testing the rafts in like a pool or something?

rgds --James--
You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 3714
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 7):
Ok so what about the over wing ones then? they are all bent and slope and alsorts of stuff, if that was used as a raft it would capsize would it not?
Is there a video of them testing the rafts in like a pool or something?

On the 747 the OW slides are not sliderafts.... the A380 is probably the same.... used on land or as a backup in a ditching but the primary means of escape in a ditching are the other doors.
I've used a 747 raft in a pool before... good fun there, but you wouldn't want to be stuck with 60+ souls in one on the open sea!
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
tommybp251b
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:21 am

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting JamesJimlb (Reply 6):
what does ud and ld mean

UD= Upper Deck
ID or LD= Lower Deck

This kind of accident with survivors happened just once in aviation history. There was an article in the german AERO International some month ago about it. The plane involved was a DC-9. It happened somewhere in the caribean sea.

http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19700502-0

Just a general question, about this scenario. Are people supposed to jump into water first and after this they have to climb on the raft?

Best Regards. Tom
Tom from Cologne
 
sphealey
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 12:39 am

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 1:38 am

> This kind of accident with survivors happened just
> once in aviation history.

Do you mean in the jet age? There were several successful ditching/evacuations in the large prop era (mostly involving Stratoliners). Personally I would not expect to survive such an accident, but it has happened.

sPh
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1415
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 9):
This kind of accident with survivors happened just once in aviation history...

It's these types of statistics that make me wonder why they even bother with "floatation devices" and preparing for "water landings". It seems to be all extra weight and fluff to keep nervous fliers happy. I figure if a plane as large as an A380 ditched it would be a 10-mile wide kerosene-soaked oceanic debris field.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2639
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 11):
It's these types of statistics that make me wonder why they even bother with "floatation devices" and preparing for "water landings". It seems to be all extra weight and fluff to keep nervous fliers happy. I figure if a plane as large as an A380 ditched it would be a 10-mile wide kerosene-soaked oceanic debris field.

Calm waters with a good pilot ditching is very safe.

Course usualy when you ditch something is broken so you might not have a clean glide into the water.
 
tommybp251b
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:21 am

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting Sphealey (Reply 10):
Do you mean in the jet age?

Yes I meant the jet age. I also meant, that this was the only accident, which happened in the way it is always shown on the safety videos.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 12):
Calm waters with a good pilot ditching is very safe.

What about the big engines? Won't it break apart? They should build in a special device for this case, with what they can loosen the engines prior to landing on water.  Wink

Best Regards. Tom
Tom from Cologne
 
ChiGB1973
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:39 am

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 5):
c) none of this matters coz if the Whalejet ditches chances are most people are gonna die anyway and those that survive will fit on whatever rafts are usable

It matters if everyone survives. If I am on that plane, I want every chance possible.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 11):
I figure if a plane as large as an A380 ditched it would be a 10-mile wide kerosene-soaked oceanic debris field

Maybe it ditched because it was out of fuel? Maybe it holds together.

M
 
albird87
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:15 am

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 7:21 am

Ok i know that these kind of situations are rare and normally the situation will bring death BUT FAA still says that you need enough lifeboats for the people on board and so forth.
So if you need the liferafts and so forth and you make the landing, can the upper doors be used or not!
I thought it was a very simple question and an answer would be quick but it seems people have given me ratios of safe landings on water to deadly landings on water!!
 
GlobalATL
Posts: 197
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:00 am

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 8:22 am

Ditching usually means that you're a gonner! UD rafts LD rafts -- who cares. It wont matter by then
TriStar BusinessElite FedEx AirTran Delta Air Lines oneworld SkyTeam JetBlue/jetBlue MAXjet SkyMiles Eos = good spelling
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2639
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 13):
What about the big engines? Won't it break apart? They should build in a special device for this case, with what they can loosen the engines prior to landing on water.

engines are supposed to break clean off. The danger with a water or wheels up landing of any kind is hooking the wing itself on the ground and starting a "cartwheel"
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 9):
Just a general question, about this scenario. Are people supposed to jump into water first and after this they have to climb on the raft?

For the DC-9, the doors slides are not rafts. Therefore, passengers would have to first jump into the water, and the slide detached to be used as a flotation device. Unfortunately, the life-raft that was equipped for this aircraft was accidentally inflated inside the cabin at the 1R door and was thus rendered useless.

On the A380, this is a non-issue as the door has slide/rafts which allows for direct boarding.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 8):
On the 747 the OW slides are not sliderafts.... the A380 is probably the same.... used on land or as a backup in a ditching but the primary means of escape in a ditching are the other doors.

You're right. The overwing exits would interfere with the deployment of the UD2 door slide/rafts. The FAA actually wrote a special rule requiring that Airbus develop procedures to prevent this exit from being used. Just as the B747, the door should be placed into manual (disarmed) mode after a ditching.

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 7):
Is there a video of them testing the rafts in like a pool or something?

I remember seeing a picture of the A380 UD slide/raft in the open water. (Actually it was on the OCEAN!) Kind of cool.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 5):
I think they are actually in 2 parts even... a small slide connected to the raft? in which case it would be a slide down to the raft sitting flat on the sea.

The "2 parts" of the Upper Deck slide/raft is actually just a couple of more feet of slide that gets deployed if the door senses an unusual attitude (usually nose up) due to a gear collapse. The design probably won't help in a ditching.

Quoting Graphic (Reply 3):
They wait until the plane sinks to their level. Much safer actually, shaves several minutes of having to brave the open water.

I'm not sure about this. Most flight attendants and cabin crew are taught that a ditching is catastrophic, so as soon as the aircraft comes to a stop, doors must be opened and slide/rafts readied as soon as possible. The only exception is doors that are below the water line.

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 16):
Ditching usually means that you're a gonner!

There are many of airports near major bodies of water, so an overrun into water is entirely possible. Consider the case of a B747 China Airlines aircraft (registration B-165) ended up in the water of Hong Kong's harbor-- in which case, all slide/rafts and life jackets were used. Though not a ditching, per se, the aircraft remained intact and allowed for a safe evacuation of the passengers of crew.
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
Doona
Posts: 3382
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:43 am

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 9:19 pm

Quoting Graphic (Reply 3):
They wait until the plane sinks to their level. Much safer actually, shaves several minutes of having to brave the open water.

That would cut down on the stress involved in such a situation...  silly 

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
georgiaame
Posts: 951
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:55 am

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Mon May 21, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 12):
Calm waters with a good pilot ditching is very safe.

I doubt that very much. Modern aircraft are probably only slightly better landing on water than they are at landing in trees.

Be that as it may, I wonder if anyone bothered to figure out just how deep the plane will sink, assuming it doesn't crack up on landing. This is a pretty big machine, and its pretty heavy. Where is the water line? Cargo level? Main deck? Between the main deck and the upper?

I'm just glad I don't design these things...
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
TheRonald
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:25 am

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Tue May 22, 2007 12:24 am

don't forget shark repelant in your carry on  pray 
I already have the quilty concious, may as well have the money, too.
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Tue May 22, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 20):
Be that as it may, I wonder if anyone bothered to figure out just how deep the plane will sink, assuming it doesn't crack up on landing. This is a pretty big machine, and its pretty heavy. Where is the water line? Cargo level? Main deck? Between the main deck and the upper?

Aircraft manufactures do undertake flotation studies using models on their aircraft. This can help them estimate which exits are likely to be below the waterline.
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
VgnAtl747
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 3:59 am

RE: A380 And Life Rafts.

Tue May 22, 2007 1:30 am

You guys haven't heard!?!?!?! The A380 program delays had nothing to do with wiring. The innovative folks over at Airbus have been putting in some extra hours developing a giant raft that deploys under the aircraft, floating the whole aircraft.  Wink

In all seriousness, I think the procedure for evacuating an aircraft the size of an A380 on water is probably just for morale. Everyone knows that the chances of surviving such event are pretty slim--about the same as rocketing down one of those slides and actually stopping in the raft at the end without bouncing right off it.

In the discovery series about building the A380 they spend an entire segment talking about the development of the slides and the evac tests. They even go into the factory of the slide manufacturer and explain how they're built. It's quite interesting (actually all 5 shows in the A380 series are quite good).
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines