bells
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Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Mon May 21, 2007 5:43 pm

Boeing is working with two airlines interested in buying commercial blended wing body freighters (see article link). Maybe this is the future of the BWB, as passengers are expected to get sick flying in an airliner with no windows?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-commercial-blended-wing-body.html
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Mon May 21, 2007 6:00 pm

With a Pax version there's also the size of the up and down motion of those Pax sitting a long way from the centre line when the plane banks - it'd be like sitting half the way along the wing in a conventional plane.
 
keesje
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Mon May 21, 2007 6:23 pm

BWB designs have been with us for decades.

I think militairy / cargo use is most likely.

Think of the forces a pressurized cabin would endure -> weight.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Edw-2006-X48-061028-01-8.jpg

Why isn't it a Twin?  bomb 

[Edited 2007-05-21 11:24:20]
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MD-90
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Mon May 21, 2007 6:50 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
Why isn't it a Twin? bomb

Because it was originally Douglas' idea, that's why. Boeing has apparently retained the trijet configuration from the original concept, which was first revealed a long time ago.
 
Geo772
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Mon May 21, 2007 7:05 pm

This type of product could revolutionise the freighter market.

The main reason is that there is always a compromise when a passenger varient of an aircraft is altered to make a freighter varient.

Just look at the A330 freighter for instance, you go from an excellent passenger aircraft to a compromised freight aircraft.
The only aircraft really flying today which embrasses both freight and passenger use is the 747, but this is still quite limited when compared to the potential of a BWB.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
Think of the forces a pressurized cabin would endure -> weight.

According to the article it would be a pressurised aircraft. It is described as a rectangular pressure vessel.
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cobra27
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Mon May 21, 2007 7:43 pm

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 4):
Just look at the A330 freighter for instance, you go from an excellent passenger aircraft to a compromised freight aircraft.


Correction, excellent freighter with more than 30 orders
 
Geo772
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Mon May 21, 2007 8:51 pm

Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 5):
Correction, excellent freighter with more than 30 orders

I'm not doubting that, but the aircraft had to be significantly redesigned away from the original A330 design to allow it to carry main deck freight.
Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Mon May 21, 2007 9:13 pm

CFRP should help reduce the weight of the pressure vessel, being both lighter and stronger then Al. And if the DoD will allow Boeing to use data gained from the B-2 Spirit program on the aerodynamic and flight characteristics of a true "flying wing", that should help them get a grip on those properties in a blended wing a bit easier.
 
parapente
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Mon May 21, 2007 9:13 pm

There is no doubt whatsoever IMHO that this is Boeings next large passenger aircraft.

They are just introducing it to us slowly.
The window issue is a non issue.How many people get a window seat on a 747 ?- if it was a real problem every 747 would be three quarters empty - they are not! Your flat screen in front of you will give you plenty of camera angles to choose from.You can also work wonders with interior lighting. Indeed what about the fabulous feeling of size and space such an aircraft would give you.

As for constant radius turns. A few seconds of a (very) little extra or less "G" as you execute the turn. If this was a real problem then no one would fly with the risk of Turbulence. It is an every day occurance/risk.Often very violent ("fasten saftey belts please we are entering an area of turbulence"). Are people prepared to accept this risk? Yes, every day and they always have.

The 747-8I is a stopgap to cover the next 10 years as they develop their understanding on every aspect of handling and construction.Remember they cannot be seen to be "poaching" off the military division.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Mon May 21, 2007 9:18 pm

Personnaly I have a very strong preference for windows, even when I not sitting next to one. I think this is a huge let down for a company who's next product has enlarged windows and improved passenger comfort features (787).
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Mon May 21, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
Why isn't it a Twin? bomb

Actually I am glad to see the trijet come back, I know twins can do it but I think having the three engines is so cool Big grin
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Mon May 21, 2007 9:29 pm

Quoting Parapente (Reply 8):
The window issue is a non issue.How many people get a window seat on a 747 ?- if it was a real problem every 747 would be three quarters empty - they are not! Your flat screen in front of you will give you plenty of camera angles to choose from.You can also work wonders with interior lighting. Indeed what about the fabulous feeling of size and space such an aircraft would give you.

When at Boeing, I had a co-worker who was with the 777 Payloads (that's how Boeing refers to passengers) program in the development years and they were considering doing away with windows entirely and just projecting the outside sky on the cabin walls and ceiling! Unfortunately (?), the projection technology at the time was so bulky and heavy that it far outweighed the structural inefficiencies of cutting windows into the fuselage.

However, we have seen the latest versions of this idea in things like the BMW A350 cabin mock-up with it's projection of a "sky" on the ceiling (ala Hogwarts Castle in the Harry Potter films) so such a technology could be used on a BWB. And things like the Japanese Himawari sunlight transmission system could be used to bring natural light into the fuselage.

And with modern flight control systems, the motions of the wing itself can be damped and you could easily isolate the fuselage section inside the structure itself with some mechanical damping system to smooth out whatever minor side-to-side oscillations are transmitted into the frame if those oscillations are found to induce nausea or other discomfort.
 
khushdesi
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 2:19 am

sorry if this is a dumb question, but couldn't there be windows in the ceiling? perhaps such skylights would also make people more comfortable?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
Why isn't it a Twin?

Well, your ignorant and historic prejudice towards twinjets non withstanding, the optimal design for a blended wing/body will be very different than the rules for an optimal tube-wing aircraft. A trijet is probably the optimal worse design for a tube-wing but perhaps the best for a BWB. It isn't that hard to figure out why.

Quoting Khushdesi (Reply 12):
sorry if this is a dumb question, but couldn't there be windows in the ceiling? perhaps such skylights would also make people more comfortable?

You could fit skylights, but it probably wouldn't improve cabin comfort much. There's nothing to really view from a skylight and they would provide no reference to the horizon that you can obtain from a standard window...
 
deltadc9
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting Parapente (Reply 8):
There is no doubt whatsoever IMHO that this is Boeings next large passenger aircraft.

Excellent post, I am waiting for this day:

Big version: Width: 650 Height: 432 File size: 48kb


Notice the passenger section is still towards the middle, and I am assuming the freight and baggage is towards the outside. It clearly will not be a plane wioth people riding out near the wingtips.

Quoting Khushdesi (Reply 12):
sorry if this is a dumb question, but couldn't there be windows in the ceiling? perhaps such skylights would also make people more comfortable?

Not dumb at all, and the areas out towards the wing could be used for cargo.
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redflyer
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 1):
With a Pax version there's also the size of the up and down motion of those Pax sitting a long way from the centre line when the plane banks - it'd be like sitting half the way along the wing in a conventional plane.

Passengers would be seated towards the centerline with baggage/freight being carried further out in the wing.

I think the biggest obstacle, if it is even that, would be emergency evacs. In the event the plane ends up on its belly the only place for passengers to evac to would be up and out over the wing/body. Although they could exit the rear, I think there has to be an ability to exit in more than one direction.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
Think of the forces a pressurized cabin would endure -> weight.

The pressure vessel would not necessarily follow the contours of the wing/body. They could very well be semi-circular tubes carried within the wing/body, thereby reducing the requirement for extra weight to support pressurization.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
Why isn't it a Twin?

Probably because the original concept was for a BWB that would carry as many passengers/freight as today's 748 or A380. And you don't see those beasts flying with just two engines.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 3:22 am

I agree with a lot of the posts here. I think BWB will be something that Boeing looks at very carefully for both Y1/Y3. I think it's more likely for Y3, since the operating advantages would be out of the ballpark on a larger frame. But it also might be good for Y1 to improve the performance even more then just CFRP and new engines. the wingspan and dip won't make as much difference here as well.

Anyone else notice that the latest Airbus technology presentation draft includes a nick'd BWB? It looks like they just went back to the McDonnell-Douglas pictures and repainted them.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 15):
I think the biggest obstacle, if it is even that, would be emergency evacs. In the event the plane ends up on its belly the only place for passengers to evac to would be up and out over the wing/body. Although they could exit the rear, I think there has to be an ability to exit in more than one direction.

If we come to the point where we have a choice of flying in aircraft with a lesser chance of surviving a crash vs. not flying at all, the choice becomes obvious. Rising fuels costs and environmental concerns may push us to that point.

Simply put, the evac rules can and will be changed as the market demands it. airplane 
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cygnuschicago
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 3:33 am

Here is a nice page on the Stanford BWB, including a video clip near the bottom of it flying: LINK

Quoting Parapente (Reply 8):
There is no doubt whatsoever IMHO that this is Boeings next large passenger aircraft.

The 747-8I is a stopgap to cover the next 10 years

Wait, but I thought there was not a big enough market for VLA's to justify a new aircraft, like the A380. How will Boeing sell enough of these to recover their investment?  Wink
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EI321
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 3:33 am

EVACUATION - Would a BWB pass evacuation trials, considering how far pax would be from exits?
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
Why isn't it a Twin?

Horror! You CANNOT ask that of a Boeing design, that is only a fair question of an Airbus design  Wink

Anyway, looks like Airbus still believes in Four-Engines-For-Long-Haul. Their 1,000 seat BWB concept from 2001:

Big version: Width: 550 Height: 206 File size: 9kb
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Rheinbote
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
And if the DoD will allow Boeing to use data gained from the B-2 Spirit program on the aerodynamic and flight characteristics of a true "flying wing", that should help them get a grip on those properties in a blended wing a bit easier.

I can see W T O written all over that idea  wave 
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 3:53 am

Screw logic...I like it...that should be good enough for Boeing, eh...?
What the...?
 
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Tugger
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 4:01 am

What's the rotational-mass change with that much weight on the outside? I'm sure that's all been considered but how would it handle? With a tube and wings it easy to snap the thing around but throw a bit of inertial mass out there and what will happen?

Tug
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rampart
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 21):
I can see W T O written all over that idea

Sad. A good example of swords to plowshares defied by regulations.

What would the WTO have thought of Velcro, or the Hummer, or the Internet?

-Rampart
 
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Tugger
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 20):
Their 1,000 seat BWB concept from 2001

Wow! 24 windows for 1,000 passengers?!? Guess windows aren't actually needed but still.....

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 4:13 am

From what I've seen on the news, more than a few officers of the WTO have been discovered using velcro and the internet in the middle of a hummer...
What the...?
 
jacobin777
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 4:16 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 15):
I think the biggest obstacle, if it is even that, would be emergency evacs. In the event the plane ends up on its belly the only place for passengers to evac to would be up and out over the wing/body. Although they could exit the rear, I think there has to be an ability to exit in more than one direction.

...possibly exits from both the top (ceiling) and bottom flooring also..would be quite interesting to see.. yes 

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 18):
Here is a nice page on the Stanford BWB, including a video clip near the bottom of it flying: LINK

...it was done 15 minutes away from my house.. biggrin ...too bad I didn't know about it... Sad
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GAIsweetGAI
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 14):
the areas out towards the wing could be used for cargo.

Where does the fuel go then?  confused 

Also, has anyone thought of a rectangular fuselage? (as opposed to circular on today's airliners)
"There is an art, or rather a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
 
SWALoveField
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 4:42 am

Question: Would the cabin be more quiet over a traditional tube and wing design since the engines "are way back there."

Robb
Dallas, TX
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 4:44 am

I don't really thing cabin shape would be an issue. CFRP materials, and an interior shape much like the a380 cross section on it's side.
What the...?
 
rampart
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting GAIsweetGAI (Reply 28):
Also, has anyone thought of a rectangular fuselage? (as opposed to circular on today's airliners)

The article cited states just that:

Quote:
The basic design is not a tube, it’s a rectangular pressure vessel, so material design is an issue,” Muellner says. “The internal structure is like an array of ISO containers,” he says, which is one part of its appeal to freight operators. “It’s fuel efficient and it’s easy to load.”

-Rampart
 
GAIsweetGAI
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 4:59 am

Quoting Rampart (Reply 31):

 Embarrassment

That said, I was thinking more towards replacing the current tube with a rectangular parallelepiped (?), making the airplane look basically like a flat box on wings. Is this possible/practical/viable?
"There is an art, or rather a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
 
dangould2000
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting GAIsweetGAI (Reply 32):
That said, I was thinking more towards replacing the current tube with a rectangular parallelepiped (?), making the airplane look basically like a flat box on wings. Is this possible/practical/viable?

it is without a doubt unpractical and a dare go as far to say imposible, the simple reason being the corners of the attrocious looking aircraft (i can only imagine) would never be able to take the stresses of constant pressurisations/depressurisations

(think back to the DH106 comet 1)
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greg3322
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 25):

I'm a huge fan of the airliner window, but with seatback video and selectable cameras, I could be happy.

Greg
 
Devilfish
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 16):
I agree with a lot of the posts here. I think BWB will be something that Boeing looks at very carefully for both Y1/Y3. I think it's more likely for Y3,

Curious that not that many thought so in this thread.....
Trijet For Y3? (by DEVILFISH Apr 29 2007 in Tech Ops)
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atmx2000
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 21):
I can see W T O written all over that idea   

I don't know whether it would be actionable with the WTO. I believe defense R&D spending generally isn't, unless the spending was just a masked commercial subsidy (the military product was never intended to be delivered).
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
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Tugger
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 8:25 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 35):
Curious that not that many thought so in this thread.....
Trijet For Y3?

Yes, but this is a BWB and all the engine could be in a similar location/profile. You would not need to have one buried in the body or tail with all its added weight, maint., and access issues.

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
jbernie
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting Khushdesi (Reply 12):
sorry if this is a dumb question, but couldn't there be windows in the ceiling? perhaps such skylights would also make people more comfortable?

serious answer: if the skylight is slight raised above the cabin such that light comes down and then spreads then it should be poossible and ok, maybe have a reflective tube between the area where the light enters and the cabin so it reflects light out as opposed to the actual light blaring in which should make for a more comfortable form of light.

no serious answer: how about floor lights?  Smile imagine walking over a window placed in the floor? With my fear of falling that would be something scary  Smile
 
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Tugger
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting Jbernie (Reply 38):
no serious answer: how about floor lights? Smile imagine walking over a window placed in the floor? With my fear of falling that would be something scary Smile

THAT would be THE ultimate window view. It'll NEVER happen but it would be very cool.

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 8:45 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 21):


Quoting Stitch,reply=7:
And if the DoD will allow Boeing to use data gained from the B-2 Spirit program on the aerodynamic and flight characteristics of a true "flying wing", that should help them get a grip on those properties in a blended wing a bit easier.

I can see W T O written all over that idea.  wave 

Not so sure about that. All it would really cover is some basic handling characteristics to compare against what the scale models are returning. There would still need to be extensive modeling and testing against the specific BWB design going forward. It wouldn't involve any technology or production methodology transfers since all those would be classified and or covered under ITAR or some other restrictions, most likely.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 8:46 am

What sort of pax size are these BWB's suppossed to fill? Blend the engines like the B-2 and put a bomb-bay in it to replace the B-52! And/or just build more B-2's, WTF?
 
Devilfish
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Tue May 22, 2007 8:47 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 37):
Yes, but this is a BWB and all the engine could be in a similar location/profile.

Please note that the X-48B was mentioned in that thread's start and a link was even included.....

Quoting DEVILFISH (Thread starter):
or farther out, something like the X-48B that Boeing is testing.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...echnology/2003681476_boeing26.html

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/....html



Quoting SEPilot (Reply 22):
The flying wing (read BWB) concept is actually the one that holds the most promise for the future; the primary problem is passenger acceptance of having no windows. When first introduced it was not practical because stalls were pretty much unrecoverable, but with FBW technology that is not such a factor. If Y3 turns out to be a BWB there is the possibility that it could be a trijet; but I don't think it is likely as Boeing does not believe that the public is ready for it. But if an airliner bigger than the A380 ever is built my bet is that it will be a BWB. Of course one big disadvantage to the BWB is that it is one size; different size variations are impossible.



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 23):
I guess that depends on the level of blend. A pure flying wing is tricky to resize. But if you make it a semi-blend with a partly distinct fuse, changing the fuse length becomes possible.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Wed May 23, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 41):
What sort of pax size are these BWB's suppossed to fill?

More recent modular studies by Boeing covered everything from 200 seats upwards
 
stirling
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Wed May 23, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting Jbernie (Reply 38):
imagine walking over a window placed in the floor?

Just like a glass bottomed boat!

Quoting Tugger (Reply 39):
THAT would be THE ultimate window view. It'll NEVER happen but it would be very cool.

Just look down between your legs....that would amuse me!

With virtual reality making leaps and bounds, I could see in ten years we would be at the point where every passenger would be provided a 360 view around them, in HD, to allay the "No Windows" fear.

One thing I don't get....in cargo form, where is it loaded from?
The bottom, lifting it up like a bomber does it's explosive ordinance?

I am unfamiliar with what "ISO" means....is that a shipping container, that can go from rail, to truck, to ship?
If that is the case, then brilliant!
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Areopagus
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Wed May 23, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 44):
One thing I don't get....in cargo form, where is it loaded from?
The bottom, lifting it up like a bomber does it's explosive ordinance?

Probably up the tail ramp like a military airlifter.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 44):
I am unfamiliar with what "ISO" means....is that a shipping container, that can go from rail, to truck, to ship? If that is the case, then brilliant!

International Standards Organization's intermodal shipping container size: 8 feet wide x 8.5 height x some common length (20, 40, 45, 48, or 53 feet). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containerization

By “The internal structure is like an array of ISO containers,” he says, which is one part of its appeal to freight operators. I presume there are two related meanings: that it is divided into cargo bays sized to efficiently carry ISO containers, and that the bays are separated by longitudinal vertical bracing that helps to hold the shape against pressurization.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Wed May 23, 2007 7:43 am

Would a freighter version require pressurization? If not, wouldn't that reduce a lot of structure normally required for pressurization? Of course, the crew compartment would be pressurized but that would be the extent of it, correct or no?
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Wed May 23, 2007 2:57 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 16):
I think BWB will be something that Boeing looks at very carefully for both Y1/Y3.

Y1 will not be a BWB.
 
Areopagus
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Wed May 23, 2007 4:23 pm

Quoting Rwy04LGA (Reply 46):
Would a freighter version require pressurization?

It would if the operator wanted to transport race horses, dogs, or other live cargo.

Then there was that fellow who had himself shipped air freight, thinking he would save vs. buying a regular passenger ticket.
 
bringiton
Posts: 763
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:24 am

RE: Boeing In Talks With Airlines On BWB Freighter

Wed May 23, 2007 5:08 pm

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 48):
Then there was that fellow who had himself shipped air freight, thinking he would save vs. buying a regular passenger ticket

any link on that? wud be an interesting read