jimyvr
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TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 3:32 am

SAO PAULO, Brazil, May 21 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- TAM (Bovespa: TAMM4 and NYSE: TAM) and Lufthansa signed a Memorandum of Understanding today, in a starting point for a possible close cooperation. In the coming months, the two companies will examine various forms of cooperation. The first step will be the implementation of codesharing on domestic and international routes. Other possibilities include the optimization of the two companies' flight schedules and linking TAM's frequent flyer program, Fidelidade, with Lufthansa's Miles & More, as well as reciprocal sharing of VIP lounges in a number of airports.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070521/spm002.html?.v=33

[Edited 2007-05-21 20:33:13]
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
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LTU932
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 3:34 am

So, could this be JJ's possible first step into Star Alliance?
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
So, could this be JJ's possible first step into Star Alliance?

If we consider the recent agreements with UA and TP, could be.
TAM agreements with AF and AA never were so complete as those negotiated with Star carriers.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
jimyvr
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 3:53 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 2):
TAM agreements with AF and AA never were so complete

I think they have similar cooperation status as to those planned with UA and LH with the AF deal?
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
stylo777
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 4:51 am

could open more destinations out of GRU for LH customers. wasn't there a discussion months ago about the come-back of JJ to FRA?

I think JJ is on the way to enter the big alliance...
 
airbazar
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
So, could this be JJ's possible first step into Star Alliance?

More like the third step. The first 2 being the agreements they recently signed with TP and UA. They're also looking to sign a similar agreement with ANA. Call me crazy but I find it increasingly more difficult to continue to say that TAM is not interested in joining any alliance  Smile

If they were to join *A, it would be great for all parties involved. *A sorely lacks a presence in S.America so TAM would be a very strong member of the alliance. And with TP, LH, UA not interested in expanding operations to S.America, that puts TAM in an even better position within that alliance.
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 5):
Call me crazy but I find it increasingly more difficult to continue to say that TAM is not interested in joining any alliance

Well, I agree with you, however, TAM President restated today during the press conference that TAM has no interest in joining an alliance and will continue its drive for bilateral agreements. I also think that UA+LH agreement are very comprehensive and certainly overide TAM's current agreement with AF and AA, the later will not even be renenewed.
As Lipe mentioned, TAM agreement with UA and LH are much more comprehensive that the current arrangement TAM has with AF, KL and AA.

LH, on its turn, restated its invitation for TAM to join *A, in a very open and public invitation in front of the press! In my view it is a matter of time for TAM to join *A, and this will certainly undermine AF current expansion drive in Brazil since they will need a new partner in the country. I have my doubts whether AF-KL will ever manage to keep its current capacity in Brazil without a local partner. Note that AF alrady loaded the second daily GIG-CDG while KL has just announced that GRU will be the inaugural destinations of its B77W, which means that AF-KL will operate daily in Brazil 2 x B77W + 1 x B747 + 2 A330. Will AF-KL manage to keep this capacity without TAM?

TAM officially stated that FRA is in its plans and we could expect GRU-FRA very soon given that RG still has 7 unused weekly frequencies. This also explains TAM recent lease of bigger planes A345 so as to maximise the lack of frequencies by offering bigger capacity birds.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 5):
And with TP, LH, UA not interested in expanding operations to S.America, that puts TAM in an even better position within that alliance.

You better reword your statement: no interest in expansion in South America, except Brazil: TAP has just announced increased flights to GIG and GRU in addition to a new destination in Brazil: LIS-BSB 5 x week (ahead bookings are shwoing great loads); UA will launch IAD-GIG nonstop starting Oct/2007; while LH-LX continue its stronghold in GRU: in addition to LH daily FRA-GRU B747, LX increased ZRH-GRU from 5 x week to 6 x week, and LH launched MUC-GRU.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 7:30 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 3):
I think they have similar cooperation status as to those planned with UA and LH with the AF deal?

Let's see:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resource / Partnership ---------------- AF -------- AA ------ TP ------ UA ------- LH
-
Accrual FF miles on ALL flights----- no --------- yes ----- yes ----- yes* ----- yes*
-
Code-share ALL flights------------------ no --------- no ------- yes ----- yes* ---- yes*
-
Unlimited seats on flights -------------- no -------- no ------- yes ----- yes* ---- yes*
-
Connecting C class can use F/C --- yes ------- no*2----- yes ----- yes* ---- yes*
-
Use of Lounges on Hubs --------------- ??? ------- no*3 ---- yes ----- yes* ---- yes*
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* Only said that they will, but as a MOU, nothing confirmed yet.
*2 - AA never confirms to TAM F class seats while customer is flying on C, only F class customers can fly domestic F
*3 - AA only lounge available is SCL due to special agreement. JJ does not offer it's lounge for AA customers. I don't know which lounge JJ uses at CDG, At LHR they use KLM lounge, at EZE, American Express, at JFK, VS lounge, at MIA, BA lounge.

Also AA does not grant connecting flights for JJ8074/8075 FOR-BEL-MAO-MIA flight and does not offer code-share on their AA904/905 GIG-MIA service.

AA only offer a very limited number of seats to TAM, with few exceptions, including MCO.

Hope it's clear how *A partners agreement is better.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
JJMNGR
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 9:24 am

Now it is official. TAM asked to ANAC 14 weekly flights and the expactation is to operate 14 weekly at once!
 
HALFA
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 8):
Now it is official. TAM asked to ANAC 14 weekly flights and the expactation is to operate 14 weekly at once!

14 weekly flights to where?

Aloha,
HALFA
HA J Class Lie flats, coming soon to a plane near you........
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting HALFA (Reply 9):
14 weekly flights to where?

Aloha,
HALFA

14 weekly flights to FRA.
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 5:13 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
14 weekly flights to FRA.

And TAM plans to start 14 weekly flights to FRA as soon as possible. We could see TAM landing in FRA twice daily already in 2007. I seriously think that TAM will relocate at least one of the 3 daily flights from CDG to FRA. I also hope one of the FRA flights will operate GIG-FRA.

More than 60% of TAM pax flying to CDG connect onwards, all will probably be routed via FRA. It will reduce density of CDG operations. We could soon expect AF to terminate its agreement with TAM and perhaps approach G3-RG.

Rgs,
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 8:36 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
I seriously think that TAM will relocate at least one of the 3 daily flights from CDG to FRA. I also hope one of the FRA flights will operate GIG-FRA.

That's actually a way a see them maintaining the 3 daily flights to CDG. If they route 7 frequencies to FRA nonstop from GIG or if they develop REC as a Northeastern minihub as feed for a possible REC-CDG. MAO-BEL-REC, SLZ-REC, THE-REC, FOR-REC, NAT-REC, JPA-REC, MCZ-REC AJU-REC and SSA-REC all in time for immediate connection to the REC-CDG.

So, that would leave them with

7 GIG-CDG
7 GRU-CDG
7 REC-CDG
14 GRU-FRA

or

7 GIG-CDG
14 GRU-CDG
7 GIG-FRA
7 GRU-FRA

or both combined

7 GIG-CDG
7 GRU-CDG
7 REC-CDG
7 GIG-FRA
7 GRU-FRA

The latter is also the healthiest alternative.
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 9:06 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 12):
7 GIG-CDG
7 GRU-CDG
7 REC-CDG
7 GIG-FRA
7 GRU-FRA

The latter is also the healthiest alternative

I cannot see JJ keeping 3 daily flights to CDG without partnership with AF. Currently more than 60% of JJ pax connect onwards in CDG to other destinations. In other words, JJ would have to reduce capacity to CDG in at least 60% which will make it hard for TAM to keep even 2 daily flights in CDG.

Also you have to consider that perhaps AF will team up with G3+RG which could then start operations to CDG making TAM situation even harder. In case G3+RG start flights to CDG in cooperation with AF I can only see TAM maintaining one daily GRU-CDG flight.

We can expect TAM to concentrate all its efforts in developing FRA as its main hub. Considerting JJ-LH agreement is far more comprehensive than AF (involving full codeshare), you can expect that TAM could easily keep 4 daily flights in FRA. Of course, this would come in detriment of TAM's hub in CDG.

Rgs,
 
airbazar
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
You better reword your statement: no interest in expansion in South America, except Brazil:

I think that was too obvious and it could go without saying  Smile

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 12):
That's actually a way a see them maintaining the 3 daily flights to CDG. If they route 7 frequencies to FRA nonstop from GIG or if they develop REC as a Northeastern minihub

According to TAP's Fernando Pinto, the plan is to develop BSB as a South American hub. GRU and GIG will always stand on their own as O&D cities. If you ask me, it makes some sense to use a relatively modern and uncongested airport to start an international hub.
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 9:50 pm

Is it only me or are there more people out there that think that the North American market is being left out? With the dollar so low, Brazilian will invade the USA this summer, but so far there's is no sign of expansion besides JJ in December with a GIG-MIA flight.
I think JJ won't have breath for a new extensive expansion next year. They are going to receive new planes, but they also have to return the 3 MD-11. JJ is leaving a void in the North American market and there is no reason for a bilateral expansion, since there are still 70 unused frequencies on the Brazilian side. Interesting enough is the fact that destinations in Southern US allow daylight flights to Southeastern Brazil. G3 might send RG not only to the traditional gateways, MIA and JFK, if the European market becomes too restrictive, specially if the visa waiving proposal for American, Canadian, Japanese, Australian and New Zealander citizens is approved. G3 will have their lobbyist take care of that. In the future we could see CNF-MIA, GIG/GRU-MCO, GIG/GRU-BOS and GIG/GRU-YVR perhaps. Forget about yields. They will be corrupted anywhere they go, if the current expansion keep up this pace. The days of high profitability are counted.
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 9:55 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 14):
... BSB as... to use a relatively ... and uncongested airport...

That's new for me.
 
incitatus
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 15):
Is it only me or are there more people out there that think that the North American market is being left out?

That is a consequence of the rampant anti-Americanism of the Brazilian Gov't. Brazil hands out frequencies left and right to countries that openly support their carriers financially, such as Qatar and the UAE. Meanwhile the US-Brazil market, which is the most important international market out of Brazil, is full of restrictions that in effect damage the Brazilian economy and the flow of tourists from the US.
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C010T3
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 10:09 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 13):
I cannot see JJ keeping 3 daily flights to CDG without partnership with AF. Currently more than 60% of JJ pax connect onwards in CDG to other destinations. In other words, JJ would have to reduce capacity to CDG in at least 60% which will make it hard for TAM to keep even 2 daily flights in CDG.

I said that it was the only way I could see them keeping the flights, but it doesn't mean that I think they will. My idea can seem somehow far-fetched, but is possible. Interline exists for a reason and I am sure AF won't have problems receiving JJ pax for onward connections. They just won't send them any of theirs. JJ can concentrate efforts all they want, but frequencies won't fall from the sky. There must be a really good reason for JJ be moving to FRA just for the fun of it. There are costs involved in downsizing CDG and creating a new and big base from scratch for a route that for itself isn't consolidated for that particular carrier. JJ could have married AF-KLM, which would have brought the same effects with less costs.

[Edited 2007-05-22 15:21:13]
 
PHKLM
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 18):
JJ could have married AF-KLM, which would have brought the same effects with less costs.

With the very big difference the interest of AF/KL is getting pax to Brazil and then handing them over to JJ; while JJ is interested in collecting pax in Europe that is collected by LH and TP.
This is a big difference because the money is obviously on the long haul sectors.

If AF/KL divorces from JJ I can image KLM will look into AMS-EZE and AF will investigate whether a deal cal be made with GOL. We might see these developments in 2007 already; but is JJ is going to cut its ties with AA and AF/KL at the start of the IATA winter season; we should definitely see signs of those carriers investigating the possibilities of serving Brazil.
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 22, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 19):
With the very big difference the interest of AF/KL is getting pax to Brazil and then handing them over to JJ; while JJ is interested in collecting pax in Europe that is collected by LH and TP.
This is a big difference because the money is obviously on the long haul sectors.

The agreement with JJ was not recent and I am sure that AF would have agreed to an extensive agreement just like the pretended with LH, if JJ was willing to join Skyteam. I am almost sure AF always gave JJ a cold shoulder, because they weren't interested in joining Skyteam and that was the way they tried to force JJ into rethinking it through. At that time, Star had Varig and Oneworld had LAN, there was no space for JJ there.
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 14):
According to TAP's Fernando Pinto, the plan is to develop BSB as a South American hub. GRU and GIG will always stand on their own as O&D cities. If you ask me, it makes some sense to use a relatively modern and uncongested airport to start an international hub.

???? Could not get your point.

BSB is very congested, things got a bit better after the second runway, but still BSB is a bigger hub than GIG: it is ranked as Brazil's no. 3 airport after CGH and GRU. GIG is no. 4. Of the four airports, the only one uncongested is GIG, with spare capacity of about 30% at least.

Also, the only flights from BSB to other South American destination is BSB-POA-EZE. I dont see how TAP would want to develop BSB as a hub for South America. It wont work, simple as that. The strategy of TAP was to developed BSB as a hub for O&D in addition to connections to Mid-West and North Brazil, especially GYN, BEL and MAO.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 15):
With the dollar so low, Brazilian will invade the USA this summer, but so far there's is no sign of expansion besides JJ in December with a GIG-MIA flight.

No sign of expansion? JJ already stated it will operate GIG-MIA and has shown interest in starting LAX-GRU. In addition, starting October 2007 we will have at least the following daily seasonal operations: AA GIG-MIA, UA IAD-GRU, DL ATL-GRU. AR will also operate GRU-MIA using 5th freedom rights.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 19):
If AF/KL divorces from JJ I can image KLM will look into AMS-EZE and AF will investigate whether a deal cal be made with GOL.

Perhaps, but I find it hard for KL to operate AMS-EZE nonstop. I dont the see yields in the route. Currently max 15 pax flying KL are connected to EZE with TAM. I cannot see KLM also rerouting EZE via GRU sice GRU is taking all the loads of the flight. We could expect, however, AF to increase further capacity to EZE deploying the B77W. In the meanwhile, KL already announced it will launch the B77W in AMS-GRU on 02 March 2008 - its first B77W destination.

Rgs,
 
airbazar
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 16):
That's new for me.

Didn't BSB just built a new runway? That should have elimitated any congestion that it had. What about the new expansion of the passenger terminal?

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
Meanwhile the US-Brazil market, which is the most important international market out of Brazil, is full of restrictions that in effect damage the Brazilian economy and the flow of tourists from the US.

Restriction to whom? Why would the Brazilian government open up the restriction to US carriers before it can have a Brazilian carrier capable of competing in the market? Let TAM and possibly RG expand and solidify their N.American operations then we can talk about lifting the restrictions on foreign carriers.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 18):
JJ could have married AF-KLM, which would have brought the same effects with less costs.

Not the same, and who said AF-KL were interested? AF-KL serve other S.American destinations from their hubs and would not need JJ as much. AF-KL were interested only in having a Brazilian feeding carrier for their flight to/from Europe, nothing more.
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 21):
No sign of expansion? JJ already stated it will operate GIG-MIA and has shown interest in starting LAX-GRU. In addition, starting October 2007 we will have at least the following daily seasonal operations: AA GIG-MIA, UA IAD-GRU, DL ATL-GRU. AR will also operate GRU-MIA using 5th freedom rights.

Well, interest is not enough. It was either FRA or LAX. Last time I checked FRA won. Well, AA alternates frequencies between GRU-DFW and GIG-MIA, isn't? That's relocation. You mean IAD-GIG, not GRU, which is not an increase, since the second daily GRU-IAD used to be seasonal too. That extra GRU-ATL last year was temporary as far as I know and hasn't been scheduled to return. Don't make me laugh at AR. A310 GRU-MIA-GRU both-ways daylight. Are they lining up to be slaughtered? That extra capacity will be used exactly by the extra demand it creates, since they will have to work with travel agencies by selling bulk tickets, keeping the price at the minimum authorised by ANAC.

[Edited 2007-05-22 17:50:31]
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 22):
Didn't BSB just built a new runway? That should have elimitated any congestion that it had. What about the new expansion of the passenger terminal?

Exactly, what about the expansion of the terminal? If GRU in need for a new terminal for ages, but hasn't gotten it until now, why do you think that BSB will expansion any time soon?

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 22):
Restriction to whom? Why would the Brazilian government open up the restriction to US carriers before it can have a Brazilian carrier capable of competing in the market? Let TAM and possibly RG expand and solidify their N.American operations then we can talk about lifting the restrictions on foreign carriers.

I completely agree.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 22):
Not the same, and who said AF-KL were interested? AF-KL serve other S.American destinations from their hubs and would not need JJ as much. AF-KL were interested only in having a Brazilian feeding carrier for their flight to/from Europe, nothing more.

Isn't evident that a JJ-LH partnership can hurt AF? Why wouldn't they be interested in JJ, when the things at RG+G3 aren't that solid yet? Why do you think LH didn't want to wait for RG to rise again?
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 22):
Didn't BSB just built a new runway? That should have elimitated any congestion that it had. What about the new expansion of the passenger terminal?

Yes, but it keep some restrictions due to the demand of IFR stations IIRC and it's used for landings only during sometime.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 14):
According to TAP's Fernando Pinto, the plan is to develop BSB as a South American hub. GRU and GIG will always stand on their own as O&D cities. If you ask me, it makes some sense to use a relatively modern and uncongested airport to start an international hub.

South American Hub at BSB ? With only non-stop domestic flights ?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 21):
BSB is very congested, things got a bit better after the second runway, but still BSB is a bigger hub than GIG: it is ranked as Brazil's no. 3 airport after CGH and GRU. GIG is no. 4. Of the four airports, the only one uncongested is GIG, with spare capacity of about 30% at least.

Yes, it's true, but BSB is huge in terms of connections only. As O&D Market is not so strong.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 21):
Also, the only flights from BSB to other South American destination is BSB-POA-EZE. I dont see how TAP would want to develop BSB as a hub for South America. It wont work, simple as that. The strategy of TAP was to developed BSB as a hub for O&D in addition to connections to Mid-West and North Brazil, especially GYN, BEL and MAO.

That's the main point... no non-stop !!!!

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 21):
In addition, starting October 2007 we will have at least the following daily seasonal operations: AA GIG-MIA, UA IAD-GRU, DL ATL-GRU

IAD-GIG...
And ATL-GRU is not confirmed for the end of year only for the IATA summer as a 4x weekly daylight flight.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 22):
AF-KL serve other S.American destinations from their hubs and would not need JJ as much. AF-KL were interested only in having a Brazilian feeding carrier for their flight to/from Europe, nothing more.

Agree. AF-KL coverage in S America is more comprehensive than LH. I also think AF would team with GOL as they had previous conversations.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
ATL-GRU is not confirmed for the end of year only for the IATA summer as a 4x weekly daylight flight

End of the year I mean IATA Summer, or from Oct/07 until Mar/08, the same as UA's IAD-GIG. As for DL, correct, the info is that ATL-GRU will be boosted with additional 4 weekly flights (!), which is major increase considering the schedule of JFK-GRU will remain.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 18):
There must be a really good reason for JJ be moving to FRA just for the fun of it.

LH is more than enough reason to move to FRA, while TAM will still be a established airline in CDG.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 23):
Well, interest is not enough. It was either FRA or LAX

My understanding is that FRA is first priority but LAX is also a future destination, which makes sense after the link up with UA and the future agreement with ANA.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 23):
mean IAD-GIG, not GRU, which is not an increase, since the second daily GRU-IAD used to be seasonal too

Correct. It could be seen as an expansion because it will open a new gateway through GIG. It is documented that GRU has overcapacity. UA"s operations is GIG are really welcomed and perhaps will prompt other airlines to follow and tap into the profitable GIG market, especially during the end of the year or IATA Summer or Nothern Hemisphere Winter.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 23):
That extra GRU-ATL last year was temporary as far as I know and hasn't been scheduled to return.

Correct, especially because JFK-GRU became permanent and actually drew on UA's dormant positions which were relocated from UA to DL. Still, we could at least expect DL to operate 4 x week additional ATL-GRU (Oct-Mar) which is a major boost in capacity and reinstates DL's position of extracting great yields in GRU.

Note that UA still has 7 dormant positions, so there is room for expansion if airlines wanted to do so.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 23):
Don't make me laugh at AR. A310 GRU-MIA-GRU both-ways daylight

Well, it will be an alternative for those low-yielding pax, sure enough.

Rgs,
 
worldtraveler
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
That is a consequence of the rampant anti-Americanism of the Brazilian Gov't.

which of course only hurts Brazilians who pay more for travel to the US.....

no, the real reason is because there are 4 US airlines that would quickly swoop in and expand.. which Brazil's carriers and the ATC system are not prepared to handle.
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 1:51 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 26):
LH is more than enough reason to move to FRA, while TAM will still be a established airline in CDG.

I meant besides the fact that they have an agreement with LH, since I believe they could have achieved almost the same results by closing a new agreement with AF-KLM. Moving would be unnecessary, but that wouldn't mean 7 weekly frequencies to FRA couldn't be operated on the side.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 26):
My understanding is that FRA is first priority but LAX is also a future destination, which makes sense after the link up with UA and the future agreement with ANA.

Yes, but the lack of aircraft doesn't make it possible for this year, if they start 7 GIG-MIA, 14 GRU-FRA and make of MXP-GRU a red-eye.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 26):
Correct. It could be seen as an expansion because it will open a new gateway through GIG. It is documented that GRU has overcapacity. UA"s operations is GIG are really welcomed and perhaps will prompt other airlines to follow and tap into the profitable GIG market, especially during the end of the year or IATA Summer or Nothern Hemisphere Winter.

It could, if UA kept the GRU-GIG tag-on, so that passengers could fly GIG-GRU-ORD. But now the only option out of GIG with UA will be GIG-IAD-ORD. By saying this I'm not implying that there is point in keeping the tag on, since GIG-IAD-ORD is not so bad, but I don't see further capacity, just the comfort of flying nonstop. If that brings new intercontinental flights, we will have to wait and see.
 
C010T3
Posts: 1619
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 27):
which of course only hurts Brazilians who pay more for travel to the US.....

no, the real reason is because there are 4 US airlines that would quickly swoop in and expand..which Brazil's carriers and the ATC system are not prepared to handle.

Besides DL, which ones? I only hear CO, UA, US don't have enough aircrafts... NW?

Another question is: Can the U.S. consulates handle it? I guess the Brazilian government would accept open skies, if it got accepted to the Visa Waiver Program.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2718
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 22):
Restriction to whom? Why would the Brazilian government open up the restriction to US carriers before it can have a Brazilian carrier capable of competing in the market?

Hmm.. let me see... seems like a hard question. How about this for an answer: It is in the best interest of Brazil. More service will bring in more business, more tourists, more investment in hotels and infrastructure. This way there will be jobs for people who would otherwise be career criminals.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 22):
Let TAM and possibly RG expand and solidify their N.American operations then we can talk about lifting the restrictions on foreign carriers.

Like I said, there seems to be some special interest in maintaining restrictions to US carriers. Brazil granted Panama the right to fly almost 4 flights a day even though no Brazilian carrier serves Panama and Brazil-Panama traffic is very small. I find your defense of the Brazilian position despicable. Brazilian gov't policies in this area have been discriminatory and anti-US.

Air service by a flag carrier is not a strategic asset. Airlines are transportation businesses that require a mediocre amount of science and business skills to be run. All it takes to set up an airline is capital and labor. 99% of that labor does not require even a college degree. Government's role is to assure a competitive market for transportation, not that some flag carriers be assured a particular market share of any market.
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C010T3
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 30):
I find your defense of the Brazilian position despicable. Brazilian gov't policies in this area have been discriminatory and anti-US.

WHOA! How have Brazilian government policies in this area been discriminatory? First of all, let's remind us that Brazil is a souverain country. Policies are policies. If they weren't restrictive, there wouldn't be a reason for creating them. CM only got so many frequencies, because it operates to GRU, GIG and MAO. I don't even have to mention TP's destinations. How many frequencies of the US side of the bilateral were operated to other destinations other than GRU three years ago? How many one year ago? If we had Open Skies, wouldn't we have even more frequencies to GRU? I rest my case.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2718
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 31):
WHOA! How have Brazilian government policies in this area been discriminatory? First of all, let's remind us that Brazil is a souverain country.

Yes, a sovereign country run with minimal competence.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 31):
How many frequencies of the US side of the bilateral were operated to other destinations other than GRU three years ago? How many one year ago?

The USA is Brazil's largest business partner. As such, US-Brazil is a very large market for premium travel. Airlines are not charities. Airlines are for-profit businesses and when faced with limited opportunities, will cater to those that have a higher chance of being profitable - just like *any* other business.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 31):
If we had Open Skies, wouldn't we have even more frequencies to GRU?

How do we know? We have not had open skies.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 31):
If they weren't restrictive, there wouldn't be a reason for creating them.

Hmm... you got us thinking. Besides supporting some cozy government rubber stamp jobs with generous travel allowances to Washington and Paris, maybe there is not a reason to create these restrictions.
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LipeGIG
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 27):
which of course only hurts Brazilians who pay more for travel to the US.....

in this case i agree 100% with you... it's easy to pay US$ 1,600 for a C class JFK-BRU than paying US$ 1,600 for a Y class LGA-ATL-GIG-ATL-LGA !

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 26):
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
ATL-GRU is not confirmed for the end of year only for the IATA summer as a 4x weekly daylight flight

End of the year I mean IATA Summer, or from Oct/07 until Mar/08, the same as UA's IAD-GIG. As for DL, correct, the info is that ATL-GRU will be boosted with additional 4 weekly flights (!), which is major increase considering the schedule of JFK-GRU will remain.

IATA winter you meant (Oct to Mar), the stations are connected with northern hemisphere. DL just confirmed the additional 4x ATL-GRU during June to august. Nothing on the system for Iata winter (oct/mar), and with RG back, i don't think ANAC will grant extra-rights for GRU. The reason for extra GRU flights were because of market disruption and demand (i.e. lack of RG flights). But we have to wait i think one or two more months to see how ANAC will handle this.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
airbazar
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
South American Hub at BSB ? With only non-stop domestic flights ?

Well, Brazil is still S.America  Smile But soon there will be at least 1 non-stop to Europe and in the near future TAM will have to find a place to fly the 50+ airbus they have on order. So it could happen.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 30):
More service will bring in more business, more tourists, more investment in hotels and infrastructure. This way there will be jobs for people who would otherwise be career criminals.
[...] I find your defense of the Brazilian position despicable. Brazilian gov't policies in this area have been discriminatory and anti-US.

Oh please, what makes you think that poor little AA, CO, would expand their routes to cities other than GRU to serve the needs of low yield tourists? As it is, they park their aircraft all day at GRU because it is not worth their while to even fly to an additional destination from GRU. There are other airlines who have no trouble getting additional frequencies because they are willing to fly their planes to other cities and truely... how do you put it? "bring in more business, more tourists, more investment in hotels and infrastructure." As long as US carrier are only interested in GRU, any increase in frequencies should be off the table.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2718
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 34):
As long as US carrier are only interested in GRU, any increase in frequencies should be off the table.

That is not what you said in reply 22. There, you said the Brazilian airlines need protection and that is the reason to a restrictive bilateral. It seems there is something you do not like either about the US or the US carriers that you think it is Ok to extend rights to airlines of other countries, but not to airlines of the US. I firmly believe in open markets and I firmly believe Brazil is ultimately hurting itself.

In the end what will determine the success of Brazilian carriers is not that the government protected the market for them. Gol and TAM will succeed (or not) based on how well they are managed and how well they control costs. US airlines do not have a stellar record in those counts so Gol and TAM should only count themselves as obstacles.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 34):
Oh please, what makes you think that poor little AA, CO, would expand their routes to cities other than GRU to serve the needs of low yield tourists?

Because they do serve the needs of low yield tourists and other travelers for personal reasons in places such as Cancun, Santo Domingo, St Maarten, Cabo San Lucas and Cali.
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hardiwv
Posts: 4341
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 35):
In the end what will determine the success of Brazilian carriers is not that the government protected the market for them. Gol and TAM will succeed (or not) based on how well they are managed and how well they control costs

...if only Braizlian carriers had access to US subsidies extended to their airlines (and they still are not profitable!) and US-based taxation system. The US Government is also restrictive so that US public servants can only fly with US fllag carriers....

Rgs,
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 29):
Another question is: Can the U.S. consulates handle it?

Or perhaps, can the Brazilian Federal Policy handle it...it is taking ages to get a passport issued...

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 33):
IATA winter you meant (Oct to Mar), the stations are connected with northern hemisphere. DL just confirmed the additional 4x ATL-GRU during June to august

Lipe: I may have confused things up. What I mean is that we could envisage DL to operate ATL-GRU twice daily during the Brazilian Summer, in addition to ATL-GIG and JFK-GRU. And I do think ANAC will grant DL the extra-bilateral rights, with or without RG. ANAC has been quite flexible recently, and DL has really managed to understand the Brazilian market.

In fact, as no other airline DL has managed to extract great yields (pax and cargo) out of GRU. I must confess I was not even aware of DL's extra flights for the Brazilian Winter, and it comes as great surprise and it further confirms the amount of cash GRU is generating for DL. DL now has a stronghold in GRU and developed an important niche market in GIG - UA has plenty to catch up...

Rgs,
 
C010T3
Posts: 1619
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 37):
Or perhaps, can the Brazilian Federal Policy handle it...it is taking ages to get a passport issued...

Oh, the Federal Police can! They just don't want to! They didn't prepare for the transition from the old passport to the new one, so that they created problems for the Brazilian Mint, which has been facing problems to print enough passports, since they have to print two types. The problems with the machinery at the beginning was also an issue. Now they striking everywhere, making the situation even worse. The sad part of the story is that the passport is evolving from the old ones to the ICAO machine-readable standard that was introduced in the 1980s, while most European countries have just made the transition from this same standard to the biometric one.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2718
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 5:57 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 36):
...if only Braizlian carriers had access to US subsidies extended to their airlines (and they still are not profitable!) and US-based taxation system. The US Government is also restrictive so that US public servants can only fly with US fllag carriers....

Hardi - I never offered any support for any measures that the US government might have taken in respect to its airline industry. US airlines got handouts and loan guarantees after 9-11, but you would be hard pressed to explain how even those have made US airlines more competitive in the US-Brazil market. Brazilian airlines may suffer with the Brazilian tax system, but all Brazilian and foreign companies with operations in Brazil (airlines included) get a taste of it too. US policy regarding government travel may not be right but it is no justification to discriminate against US carriers when handing out frequency rights. US government travel is irrelevant in the US-Brazil market.

Now, the four US airlines serving Brazil would kill to have the same costs that Gol has, and that will make Gol very competitive in the market - regardless of how much ink ANAC consumes in obstructive rubber stamping.

Why is it Ok to hand out many more rights to the airlines of Panama, the Netherlands, the UAE than Brazilian airlines are willing to use to those countries while it is Ok to restrict the Brazil-US market in case Brazilian airlines wish to serve it? That is not right, and it is bad for Brazil.

I am disappointed with the amount of anti-US feeling expressed in this thread, so I whole-heartedly suggest those wanting to express anti-US feelings boycott all software products made in the US  Wink As a measure of support, only use software products made in your own country...
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C010T3
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RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 23, 2007 8:25 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 39):
I am disappointed with the amount of anti-US feeling expressed in this thread

I love the USA and Americans. I have great friends in Oregon, Washington and Florida. I'm going to spend my next vacation in December in the West Coast. That's one thing. The fact that I don't agree with the expansion of the bilateral has nothing to do with the fact that I don't like the USA. We are talking about protectionism here. Don't come with this Anti-Americanism talk, because it is really making me sick. It has become a paranoia.
 
jog
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:40 am

RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 29, 2007 6:30 pm

And there are the first reports that JJ's next codeshare agreement with yet another StarAlliance member could be on its way: A codeshare with SA would be JJ's start into the African market (of course only via their code on SA's flight)...
http://verdesmares.globo.com/v3/cana...icias.asp?codigo=180128&modulo=968

BTW: It seems JJ's flight to CCS will start on September 2nd, but I have not seen the schedule, yet. It might be interesting if you could connect with LH's FRA flight (which arrives in CCS at 14.30, departing at 16:25...
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 29, 2007 6:56 pm

Quoting Jog (Reply 41):
JJ's flight to CCS will start on September 2nd

TAM will operate to CCS via MAO, whereas GOL/RG will offer GRU-CCS nonstop operations with the B773-800.

Quoting Jog (Reply 41):
And there are the first reports that JJ's next codeshare agreement with yet another StarAlliance member could be on its way: A codeshare with SA would be JJ's start into the African market

And therefore even closer to another *Alliance partner airline. JJ-SA agreement will prompt SA to increase GRU flights to 10 weekly.

TAM will face fierce competition in long-haul routes when RG/GOL start to receive its widebody aircraft.

Rgs,
 
jog
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:40 am

RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 29, 2007 8:29 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 42):
TAM will operate to CCS via MAO

That's why I said, it could be an interesting option to get from FRA to the Amazon region if it would connect to LH534/535.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 42):
nonstop operations with the B773-800

A bit wishful thinking in there?  Wink
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 29, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting Jog (Reply 43):
A bit wishful thinking in there?

Not at all. The RG/GOL flights is already confirmed GRU-CCS nonstop, schedule as follows:

EFF 17JUN

RG 8942 - ETD GRU 1715LT - ETA CCS 2210LT - 738 - MoTuWeThFrSu
RG 8943 - ETD CCS 2310LT - ETA GRU 0600LT - 738 - MoTuWeThFrSu

EFF 27JUN

RG8698 - ETD GRU 1810LT - ETA BOG 2140LT - 738 - DAILY
RG8699 - ETD BOG 2220LT - ETA GRU 0600LT +1 - 738 - DAILY

All operated with GOL aircraft and crew.

Quoting Jog (Reply 43):
That's why I said, it could be an interesting option to get from FRA to the Amazon region if it would connect to LH534/535.

TAM already operates GRU-MAO twice daily: JJ3748 with A330 and JJ3750 with A320. TAM's GRU-MAO-CCS could increase GRU-MAO nonstop to 3 x day. In addition, both GOL and RG have each twice daily flights GRU-MAO nonstop. There are in total 6 daily nonstop GRU-MAO. There is no shortage of connecting flights from pax arriving from FRA onwards to MAO.

Rgs,
 
C010T3
Posts: 1619
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 29, 2007 9:07 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 44):
n addition, both GOL and RG have each twice daily flights GRU-MAO nonstop. There are in total 6 daily nonstop GRU-MAO.

RG's second nonstop GRU-MAO is being cancelled, since it only made sense because they to run GRU-MAO-BOG with a 733. I see RG expanding capacity to MAO when they have enough widebodies to operate all the international frequencies, which would probably mean there will be a 767 available to replace the 737s on GRU-MAO.
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 29, 2007 10:37 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 44):
Quoting Jog (Reply 43):
A bit wishful thinking in there?

Not at all. The RG/GOL flights is already confirmed GRU-CCS nonstop, schedule as follows:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 42):
with the B773-800

I guess the comment was made in regards to your spelling mistake with the 773.....

Quoting Jog (Reply 41):
BTW: It seems JJ's flight to CCS will start on September 2nd, but I have not seen the schedule, yet. It might be interesting if you could connect with LH's FRA flight (which arrives in CCS at 14.30, departing at 16:25.

Even more important is that TAP arrives around the same time in Caracas. Portugal - Manaus might be an even bigger market than from Germany with some business traffic. From Germany it might be mostly eco tourists to the Amazonas.
 
jog
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:40 am

RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Tue May 29, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 46):
I guess the comment was made in regards to your spelling mistake with the 773.....

 checkmark 

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 46):
Even more important is that TAP arrives around the same time in Caracas. Portugal - Manaus might be an even bigger market than from Germany with some business traffic. From Germany it might be mostly eco tourists to the Amazonas.

Sure, I only thought of LH because it is currently their only direct destination in South America besides GRU. According to the great circle mapper flying FRA-CCS-MAO would save about 1700 miles of flying compared to FRA-GRU-MAO, i.e. about three hours less flight time (about 1500 miles for LIS-MAO).
 
airbazar
Posts: 6955
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 30, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 39):
Now, the four US airlines serving Brazil would kill to have the same costs that Gol has, and that will make Gol very competitive in the market - regardless of how much ink ANAC consumes in obstructive rubber stamping.

GOL is a Low Cost Carrier. You're comparing apples and orages.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM/Lufthansa Signed Cooperation MoU

Wed May 30, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 48):
GOL is a Low Cost Carrier.

Not anymore with RG under GOL's umbrela.

In fact, many disagree with the statement that GOL is a LCC, and GOL is different in many ways to LCCs to the type of Easyjet and Ryanair, for example, GOL serves free snacks onboard, you can select your seat, free onboard magazine, etc. I would rather classify GOL to the example of such as JetBlue and the like. In general, I would say I hardly see any difference between the domestic service of GOL and TAM. Let's see how GOL will position RG in the international market, and whether they will keep RG offering a different product that GOL in the domestic market.

Rgs,

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