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N14AZ
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Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Tue May 22, 2007 5:01 pm

Almost every hour we have an update about the progress of the first assembly of the 787 including pictures. What about the A380? Any news would be highly appreciated.
 
zvezda
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Tue May 22, 2007 5:05 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Thread starter):
Almost every hour we have an update about the progress of the first assembly of the 787 including pictures. What about the A380?

Several have already been assembled and are flying. The biggest remaining challenges are production certification and sales.
 
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OA260
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Tue May 22, 2007 5:08 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 1):
production certification

Hi Zvezda, Is this just a formality??? When do they expect to get it??
 
WINGS
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Tue May 22, 2007 5:16 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Thread starter):
Almost every hour we have an update about the progress of the first assembly of the 787 including pictures. What about the A380? Any news would be highly appreciated.

The same thing occurred when the first A380 was under construction. The only difference it that it was constantly being bashed for its looks.  Sad Now it seems that most have gradually fallen in love with it.  Smile

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 1):
Several have already been assembled and are flying.

Correct. Something like 8-9 frames.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 1):
The biggest remaining challenges are production certification

Correct. This is the next major goal to achieve.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 1):
and sales.

Agree, the continued sale of the A380 is very important.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
Hi Zvezda, Is this just a formality??? When do they expect to get it??

Singapore Airlines is to take its first frame in October. This means that it will have to receive its certificate before delivery other wise it will suffer yet another delay. Hopefully by August this will have been achieved. Smile

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
zvezda
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Tue May 22, 2007 5:18 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
Is this just a formality???

Apparently not. Airbus reportedly lost control of the configuration information and had to/is having to inventory the wiring on the aircraft already built. Getting a certification for the production procedures is difficult when the procedures have been, to some extent, ad hoc rather than according to plan. Airbus need to update their plan with whatever the new standard wiring will be, then demonstrate that the birds are/have been built according to that plan. I think this is the main reason why the first one can't be delivered to SQ yet.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
When do they expect to get it??

It would be convenient for Airbus to get it before EIS. The alternative is having to certify the early examples individually. That would be a huge and expensive hassle.
 
zvezda
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Tue May 22, 2007 5:25 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 3):
Now it seems that most have gradually fallen in love with it.

The WhaleJet somehow looks vastly better painted than unpainted. Except for the wingtips and the (relatively) tiny cockpit windows, I think the WhaleJet looks stunningly graceful. Anyway, I don't care much about the looks. I care whether or not the millions of investors who were forced to invest against their will get a reasonable RoI. I care that it is quieter and consumes less fuel per passenger than previous models. I care about dispatch reliability. I care about speed (the WhaleJet is the fastest Airbus yet). I would not compromise any of these things for better looks.
 
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OA260
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Tue May 22, 2007 6:21 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 4):
I think this is the main reason why the first one can't be delivered to SQ yet.

Thanks Zvezda

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 5):
The WhaleJet somehow looks vastly better painted than unpainted

Yes I agree, I love the LH A380 livery and SQ and AF.
 
WINGS
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Tue May 22, 2007 6:32 pm

BEFORE


NOW


The following is what I have to consider the ugliest part of the A380. It would have been nice to see the A350XWB windows introduced. Now I'm even more worried about Airbus considering opting for this configuration on the A350XWB.  Sad



Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Tue May 22, 2007 6:38 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 1):
Several have already been assembled and are flying.

I have to admit my question was not very precise. I mean, are they physically working on the airframes that have been already assembled (re-wiring)? Or is just a bunch of junior engineers sitting on the wings and doing all the paperwork?
 
WINGS
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Tue May 22, 2007 6:43 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 8):

I have to admit my question was not very precise. I mean, are they physically working on the airframes that have been already assembled (re-wiring)?

Yes

All the frames up to MSN 026 will have to be worked on and re -wired.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
6yjjk
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Tue May 22, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 3):
This means that it will have to receive its [production] certificate before delivery other wise it will suffer yet another delay.

I was under the impression that they could deliver the A380s, but that without the production certificate each one had to be individually certified by the authorities. Have I got that wrong?
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Tue May 22, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 3):
Now it seems that most have gradually fallen in love with it.

Not this person. I still think it is quite ugly. Looks like a flying manatee.
One Nation Under God
 
zvezda
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Tue May 22, 2007 10:09 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 8):
I have to admit my question was not very precise. I mean, are they physically working on the airframes that have been already assembled (re-wiring)? Or is just a bunch of junior engineers sitting on the wings and doing all the paperwork?

I believe one frame has its (hopefully) final wiring installed. It's not just a matter of documenting what has been installed but how it has been installed. It's all about documenting a repeatable and verifiable process.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Thu May 24, 2007 3:53 pm

Maybe of interest, unfortunatelly in German but there must be an English version of the lastest press release of Airbus somewhere...

http://www.handelsblatt.com/news/Unt...kommt-kabelsalat-in-den-griff.html

Summary (assuming the journalist is reporting correctly)
- first SQ A380 is ready except for final tests
- the next A380 for SQ, EK and QF are even ahead of the time-schedule
 
hman
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Thu May 24, 2007 4:26 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 9):
All the frames up to MSN 026 will have to be worked on and re -wired.

Really? I didn't think that they already had 26 in production. Does anybody have numbers on how many are close to be completed and how many have flown so far?
 
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LTU932
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Thu May 24, 2007 5:33 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
Is this just a formality

Usually the production certificate is issued along with the type certificate, but as Zvezda has said, things have gotten under control and Airbus has to do in essence "damage control" and get things right before getting the production certificate.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Thu May 24, 2007 5:55 pm

Quoting HMan (Reply 14):
Really? I didn't think that they already had 26 in production. Does anybody have numbers on how many are close to be completed and how many have flown so far?

Good idea, I really lost the overview. Do they have enough hangar capacity for such a number of aircrafts?

Why not storing some of them in those typical desert airports in the US before re-wiring? Would be something new, stored before taken into service... OK, OK, only kidding...
 
aminobwana
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Thu May 24, 2007 10:44 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 9):

Yes
All the frames up to MSN 026 will have to be worked on and re -wired.

This issue was already most exhaustively discussed at the forum. My assessment was that even
if all aircrafts up to MSN 26 would be delivered with I called a "HAND" or "PROVISIONAL" WIRING,
it must be later rewired, obviously a very disruptive procedure. But several forum members opined
that this would be no problem, even if meant that many customers would need to operate A380s
with different wiring !!

I am not sure if the re-wiring you mention refers to the "original", faulty wiring (as consequence of
the software coordination failure ?? it seems no to be so, as obviously this "original" wiring only
was being applied on a few frames !! If this is, as I assume, not the case, you agree that up to
MSN, all the delivered planes should be rewired at a later stage. Obviously, this would require
2 certification procedures.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 3):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
Hi Zvezda, Is this just a formality??? When do they expect to get it??
[quote=Zvezda,reply=1]
This means that it will have to receive its certificate before delivery other wise it will suffer yet another
delay. Hopefully by August this will have been achieved.

Please note statement of AIRBUS CFO Herr Ring in URL
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...0Headwind%20for%20Rest%20of%202007
"A series of strikes in France and Germany is threatening to undermine output. EADS and
Airbus Chief Financial Officer Hans Peter Ring notes that production time has already been lost
and that if strikes continue, some 2007 deliveries will slip into 2008. This comes as Airbus
can ill afford to upset customers with late deliveries--high-profile delays have already struck its
A380--or suffer cash flow shortfalls, which the unrest could spell.
"

A CFO would not made such declaration if he doesn't intend to use the strikes as a justification
of expected further delays. Factually, the accumulative time of the strikes is less than 5 days, with
the side effects it could justify only 15 days delay.

regarding certification:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 4):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
Is this just a formality???

Apparently not. Airbus reportedly lost control of the configuration information and had to/is having to inventory the wiring on the aircraft already built. Getting a certification for the production procedures is difficult when the procedures have been, to some extent, ad hoc rather than according to plan. Airbus need to update their plan with whatever the new standard wiring will be, then demonstrate that the birds are/have been built according to that plan. I think
this is the main reason why the first one can't be delivered to SQ yet.



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 4):
It would be convenient for Airbus to get it before EIS. The alternative is having to certify the early examples individually. That would be a huge and expensive hassle.

Really, if this lost of control is supported by a credible source (?) this is a organization failure even
worse as the lack of coordination of software, which caused the original problem. As I can see, my
naming of the provisional wiring as "hand ..." would be in such case more accurate as I intended.

But even if so, as the failure of the original wiring was already known before 9/2006, and even if the
500 Km wire seems to indicate a non-optimal design , taken in proportion of the smaller B787 and
considering that the wiring distances are diminished by the fact that the A380 is a double-decker,
it is not explainable that 8 month later, we are still speaking of a Provisional execution. Possibly
there are other reasons for these ongoing delays ?

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):

I believe one frame has its (hopefully) final wiring installed. It's not just a matter of documenting what has been installed but how it has been installed. It's all about documenting a repeatable and verifiable process.

1) In no case the "final" wiring will be in the 1st Singapore aircraft, as AIRBUS states that such would
happen not before the MSN 27. As discussed with WINGS above, this would be a provisional design
(which must be separately certified) and in my opinion it is not acceptable for an airline to receive
aircrafts from an ongoing order with different wiring, therefore increased maintenance personnel
training, etc.
The perception that in a complicated system as these it suffices to put in the hand of the engineers a
book with hundreds of drawings and they will find any defect immediately (working at any airport where
the problem occurs) is, in spite of computerization totally false, an intensive training is necessary.
Should SQ wish to receive the first aircraft with such a cabling, they should ask for re-wiring a.s.a.p.
after receiving more frames.

Given the much public attention drawn by the wiring problems, AIRBUS and Airlines should be very
careful not to allow the slightest perception of that to avoid further delays, this issue was not being
addressed with the needed extreme care.

2) You comment about that the process should be repeatable supports the said above,

3) Your remark regarding "what and how" is totally to the point, as in a complex system, if the cable
routes are significantly changed , it is unavoidable that there will be also changes in the wiring
diagrams.

4) The remark (made by other) that a further wiring version could occur anywise when an eventual
additional future order for Aircrafts of the same type, but not identical, is delivered, is irrelevant, as it
would be a third instead a second version if the pre-MSN26 are not rewired !

Aminobwana
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Thu May 24, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 17):

1) In no case the "final" wiring will be in the 1st Singapore aircraft, as AIRBUS states that such would
happen not before the MSN 27. As discussed with WINGS above, this would be a provisional design
(which must be separately certified) and in my opinion it is not acceptable for an airline to receive
aircrafts from an ongoing order with different wiring, therefore increased maintenance personnel

Deep breath, calm, calm...:

Ok all of the A380 whether pre MSN026 or post will have the same wiring it is simply the way that it has been installed that is differant - the pre planes will not need to be redone later or have differant mx procedures!
 
Wsp
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Thu May 24, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 17):
Factually, the accumulative time of the strikes is less than 5 days, with
the side effects it could justify only 15 days delay.

I don't know how you got to the 15 days and whether these are calendar days or workdays. But clearly at 434 aircraft in 2006 a loss of 15 calendar days would mean that production of an estimated 18 aircraft slips into the next year.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 17):
and even if the 500 Km wire seems to indicate a non-optimal design , taken in proportion of the smaller B787

Did Boeing publish any numbers for the B787 after they switched back to wired IFE ?

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 17):
Should SQ wish to receive the first aircraft with such a cabling, they should ask for re-wiring a.s.a.p. after receiving more frames.

Lets hope they read your post and don't let their incompetence get them into trouble  sarcastic 

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 17):
Given the much public attention drawn by the wiring problems, AIRBUS and Airlines should be very careful not to allow the slightest perception of that to avoid further delays, this issue was not being addressed with the needed extreme care.

Wow. They have delayed the delivery of that aircraft for years, because they rushed the rewiring ?  crazy  You are the one, actually the only one, on this board who relentlessly pushes the idea that there must be something fishy about the new wiring, analyzing ever rumor and factoid for the worst possible interpretations. And now you tell Airbus they must be careful not to let negative perceptions arise, the very perceptions that you are non-stop trying to create ?
 
FCKC
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Fri May 25, 2007 12:15 am

The first 9 frames have all already flown.

"Ville de Bordeaux" has now restarted its shuttles between Airbus factories around Europe bringing wings and different parts of the A380 to Langon.Then by boat and by road to the final assembly at TLS.

This ship has been leased during the time it was not working for Airbus to some companies to carry cars (more than 500 cars a trip) between Spain and Bordeaux , for the cars to be sold on the Southwestern French market.
It has also been used between Ireland and Northern France to carry car spare parts.

Airbus has also ordered two more ships , smaller than "Ville de Bordeaux" , not in China this time , but at Singapore , for these ships to replace Belugas which will arrive at the ending time frame, in a few years.
Both these ships will be used , not only for the A380 line , but for all Airbus products lines.

Seems as the A380 programm is now again on track.
 
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moo
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Fri May 25, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 20):

Airbus has also ordered two more ships , smaller than "Ville de Bordeaux" , not in China this time , but at Singapore , for these ships to replace Belugas which will arrive at the ending time frame, in a few years.
Both these ships will be used , not only for the A380 line , but for all Airbus products lines.

I guess that answers the question raised in another thread about the A350XWB and the Beluga...
 
baroque
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Fri May 25, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 20):
Seems as the A380 programm is now again on track.

Are RR back producing T900s again, or is production of them still suspended?
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Fri May 25, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 3):
Now it seems that most have gradually fallen in love with it.

Not me; I think it still looks ugly. But like Zvezda, I am more concerned with efficiency and utility than appearance.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
aminobwana
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Fri May 25, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 18):
Ok all of the A380 whether pre MSN026 or post will have the same wiring it is simply the way that it has been installed that is different - the pre planes will not need to be redone later or have different mx procedures!

Not so. As I wrote in

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 17):

as in a complex system, if the cable routes are significantly changed , it is unavoidable that there
will be also changes in the wiring diagrams
---------------------------------------------------.
The perception that in a complicated system as these it suffices to put in the hand of the engineers a book with hundreds of drawings and they will find any defect immediately (working at any airport where
the problem occurs) is, in spite of computerization totally false, an intensive training is necessary

Otherwise, if a cable or wire now relocated in the "final" execution, in order to avoid changing the wiring diagrams, must have it extremes connected to the same terminals as originally, this "patching" will increase the
complication of the installation and mean more wire and more weight.

One of the postulates of any complex control design is "want to made a change ?? It will have
10 children !"
In our modern computer age, these changes are relatively rapidly done with help of computers (IF
they have the right software), but the resulting diagrams will have a lot of alterations from the
maintenance and repair personnel view,

Quoting Wsp (Reply 19):
I don't know how you got to the 15 days and whether these are calendar days or workdays. But clearly at 434 aircraft in 2006 a loss of 15 calendar days would mean that production of an estimated 18 aircraft slips into the next year

5 days normal strike time is more or less a fact at least in France. 2 times this figure is a experience
based figure to compensate disruption. And of course it refers to workdays, as strikes were not on holidays!

Quoting Wsp (Reply 19):
Did Boeing publish any numbers for the B787 after they switched back to wired IFE ?

Boeing high officers repeatedly stated and the press reported that the B788 has 60m (100 Km) cable, the
B789 about 110 km

Quoting Wsp (Reply 19):
Lets hope they read your post and don't let their incompetence get them into trouble

I am touched by the depths of this argument. I have stated the reasons of my statement, and innocently
expected the same from anyone disagreeing

Quoting Wsp (Reply 19):
Wow. They have delayed the delivery of that aircraft for years, because they rushed
the rewiring ?

The delay was due to they were not able to complete the wiring because of design and coordination
failure.This is certainly not a merit. Now they are, as they stated officially, not able to come up with
a final design in time to wire the frames up to MSN26 and therefore intend to deliver a "provisional"
(or which its name is).
And if I understand Zvezda well, they have not available the drawings in the quality required for the
certification for this "provisional". And again: if anyone sees this differently, I expect to hear the reasons

Quoting Wsp (Reply 19):
You are the one, actually the only one, on this board who relentlessly pushes the idea
that there must be something fishy about the new wiring, analyzing ever rumor and factoid for the worst possible interpretations. And now you tell Airbus they must be careful not to let negative perceptions arise, the very perceptions that you are non-stop trying to create ?



And again and again, my arguments are answered by personal attacks and sometimes calls to the
moderators to delete my posts. You will notice that even so, I am not replying in sort, but trying to
add objectivity.

Why I am the only one ? Possibly, because I have analyzed it and this is one of the specialities of
my 50 years professional life!
There is no rumor spraying in citing AB official statements and referring (with a caveat!!) to Zvezda's
information.And this is not about "fishiness", but the fact that AB again seems not have been able
to solve the wiring impasse and in order to avoid the consequences of a catastrophic further delay
to SQ and other, has chosen to implement a "provisorium".
And mark my words: I do not imply and think that this provisorium was not checked and
ultra-checked regarding any issue implying the safety of the aircraft !!! But it must be obvious for
you and anyone that given the past prominence of the issue and the recent statement of the not
final solution before the MSN26, in case of any future factually unrelated problem of the aircraft
affecting its pax, lawyers will have their day, as you know, they are very good to create
perceptions without any help from me !!

And why SQ would accept the first aircrafts so wired ?? Because they, as AB is, are concerned
by the effects of a further delay on their own owners and shareholders, after having confirmed and
extended the original order basing on the promises of AB, and presented this as an excellent deal !!
But I am absolutely sure that should the facts so require (as I assume they will), they will ask these
frames to be later re-wired even if not saying so now, accepting the consequent disturbance but as
a responsible airline, avoiding any perceived or real risk !!

aminobwana
 
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LTU932
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Fri May 25, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 15):
Usually the production certificate is issued along with the type certificate, but as Zvezda has said, things have gotten under control

Correction: I meant out of control, not under control. Thanks to Zvezda for pointing out my mistake.
 
Wsp
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 7:43 am

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Fri May 25, 2007 11:48 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
5 days normal strike time is more or less a fact at least in France. 2 times this figure is a experience based figure to compensate disruption. And of course it refers to workdays, as strikes were not on holidays!

I think Airbus was referring to the actual walkouts that have taken place in the past days. Your original statement BTW was that Airbus was issuing the statements to prepare the stage for further A380 delays. My reply was not intended to insinuate that strikes had not taken place but to point out to you that Airbus by talking about delivery delays due to strikes were merely stating the obvious.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
Boeing high officers repeatedly stated and the press reported that the B788 has 60m (100 Km) cable, the B789 about 110 km

Are you saying that according to Boeing the wiring length has not changed when they recently decided to scrap the wireless IFE?

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
I am touched by the depths of this argument. I have stated the reasons of my statement, and innocently expected the same from anyone disagreeing

You were portraying SQ as an incompetent airline that needs advice on how to deal with their aircraft supplier. I did not see you stating any reasons for that assumption.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
The delay was due to they were not able to complete the wiring because of design and coordination failure.This is certainly not a merit. Now they are, as they stated officially, not able to come up with
a final design in time to wire the frames up to MSN26 and therefore intend to deliver a "provisional" (or which its name is). ...

Your claim was that the re-wiring is rushed or could appear to be rushed. You failed to provide any evidence that anything in the final A380 wiring is deviating from the technical standards that are required for the production and operation of an aircraft. Zero. And I know that because obviously the only party that is qualified and sufficiently informed to pass such a judgment are the certification authorities. And if they approve these aircraft for commercial service then your statements about "rushed" wiring will be relegated to FUD.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
... And if I understand Zvezda well, they have not available the drawings in the quality required for the certification for this "provisional". And again: if anyone sees this differently, I expect to hear the reasons

Several people have explained that their conclusion based on Airbus' statements is that all aircraft will have identical wiring and that the difference is that in some it has been retrofitted and in some it will be fitted in the originally envisioned production step with the originally envisioned prefabricated harnesses.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
And again and again, my arguments are answered by personal attacks and sometimes calls to the moderators to delete my posts. You will notice that even so, I am not replying in sort, but trying to
add objectivity.

If you consider my statement a personal attack then you are too sensitive for a public forum IMHO. You have repeatedly dished out claims of incompetence and various other very personal comments towards Airbus management you should be able to take a comment or two regarding your discussion style.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
Why I am the only one ? Possibly, because I have analyzed it and this is one of the specialities of my 50 years professional life!

No, your 50 years professional life is not a valid argument that convinces anybody. Verifiable facts and sources work much better.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
And why SQ would accept the first aircrafts so wired ?? Because they, as AB is, are concerned by the effects of a further delay on their own owners and shareholders, after having confirmed and extended the original order basing on the promises of AB, and presented this as an excellent deal !! But I am absolutely sure that should the facts so require (as I assume they will), they will ask these frames to be later re-wired even if not saying so now, accepting the consequent disturbance but as a responsible airline, avoiding any perceived or real risk !!

Do you realize that you just said that SQ will operate possibly unsafe aircraft to satisfy shareholders?
 
flight152
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RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Fri May 25, 2007 1:08 pm

When is the current projected in service date for the A380?
 
aminobwana
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Fri May 25, 2007 1:35 pm

Quoting Wsp (Reply 26):

I think Airbus was referring to the actual walkouts that have taken place in the past days. Your original statement BTW was that Airbus was issuing the statements to prepare the stage for further A380 delays. My reply was not intended to insinuate that strikes had not taken place but to point out to you that Airbus by talking about delivery delays due to strikes were merely stating the obvious

You are right, it is obvious. The normal procedure in such cases is try to work extra hours, take
provisional personnel or similar to compensate the lost hours, not to state so in advance !!

Quoting Wsp (Reply 26):

Your claim was that the re-wiring is rushed or could appear to be rushed. You failed to provide any evidence that anything in the final A380 wiring is deviating from the technical standards that are required for the production and operation of an aircraft. Zero. And I know that because obviously the only party that is qualified and sufficiently informed to pass such a judgment are the certification authorities. And if they approve these aircraft for commercial service then your statements about "rushed" wiring will be relegated to FUD.

The fact that they are providing for up to MSN26 a wiring system that is not final is proof enough that
that the perception of rushing exists. And you seem not have read or ignored my statement,
reinforced with"mark my words" that I am sure that AB has taken all the needed measures to guarantee
the safety of theoperation. The cerifying authority will therefore have no problem to approve it, as
they are not checking secondary and not essential functions (if they did, they would take many months
to do so). This has nothing to do with if the "provisional" and "final" wiring will be identical or not. And as
you probably may not know, approval by an inspection do no releave the manufacturer from his
responsability. only make the inspector corresponsible as far as is it reasonable.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 26):

Several people have explained that their conclusion based on Airbus' statements is that all aircraft will have identical wiring and that the difference is that in some it has been retrofitted and in some it will be fitted in the originally envisioned production step with the originally envisioned prefabricated harnesses

I cannot remember that anybody told me that, but could be I didn't see it.. Anyway, the original wiring
has by far not be installed in all units up to MSN 26,(as other Forum members remarked), so what means
they are retrofitting units which still were nort wired ???

Quoting Wsp (Reply 26):

If you consider my statement a personal attack then you are too sensitive for a public forum IMHO. You have repeatedly dished out claims of incompetence and various other very personal comments
towards Airbus management you should be able to take a comment or two regarding your discussion
style

You should explain what means "personal" comments referred to a enterprise ??? To hint incompetence of
an enterprise, stating the reasons, is a perfecttly normal procedure !! But when I discuss with members
of the Forum, incl. yourself, I did not attack personally anybody, and I repeat, very seriously, I will not
accept personal attacks either, as forbidden by the rules of the Forum.
And by the way, can you explain why you consider a remark which could hint incompetence of Airbus as an
personal attack to Forum members ??

Quoting Wsp (Reply 26):

No, your 50 years professional life is not a valid argument that convinces anybody.
Verifiable facts and sources work much better

Arguments for what?? You asked why I am the only one objecting the wiring procedure, (which by the way
I am sure I am not) and I explained it to you. Personal experience is a valid argument anywhere,
including in Court.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 26):

Do you realize that you just said that SQ will operate possibly unsafe aircraft to satisfy shareholders?

Choosing very carefully my words, you again state here exactly the contrary what is factual. I said that
SQ would accept the provisional wiring because their own reasons, even if a posterior re-wiring would
mean a serious disturbance for their own operatiions. As stated before - (see above) - there will be no
doubt regarding safety during this provisional period, which would be certified anyway.
Then I added: ""But I am absolutely sure that should the facts so require (as I assume they will),
they will ask these frames to be later re-wired even if not saying so now, accepting the consequent
disturbance but as a responsible airline, avoiding any perceived or real risk !!""
.
So, if you have read this, why you are asking such more this question ??

aminobwana
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Fri May 25, 2007 1:35 pm

Quoting Wsp (Reply 26):
Several people have explained that their conclusion based on Airbus' statements is that all aircraft will have identical wiring and that the difference is that in some it has been retrofitted and in some it will be fitted in the originally envisioned production step with the originally envisioned prefabricated harnesses.

It was never planned for all of the first 26 aircraft to have identical wiring. There are differences from one airline to another. With that exception, I believe what you wrote above is correct. Remember, the type certificate has already been granted. The only problem is with the production certificate. This is about how the aircraft are built, not what is built.

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 27):
When is the current projected in service date for the A380?

The current projection is first delivery in October and entry into commercial service in November flying daily SIN-SYD-SIN.
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Fri May 25, 2007 3:15 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
Several people have explained that their conclusion based on Airbus' statements is that all aircraft will have identical wiring and that the difference is that in some it has been retrofitted and in some it will be fitted in the originally envisioned production step with the originally envisioned prefabricated harnesses.

It was never planned for all of the first 26 aircraft to have identical wiring. There are differences from one airline to another. With that exception, I believe what you wrote above is correct. Remember, the type certificate has already been granted. The only problem is with the production certificate. This is about how the aircraft are built, not what is built.

i think that needs some clarification: Yes, the execution varies with the Airline.

My point has less to do with the certification as with maintenance problems. We all agree that any of the
wiring to be delivered will be safe and this is what the certificate will confirm.
But I hope that what I state is understood: For each Airline, the cabling should be identical, unless
the airline have ordered more than one execution of the main frame.

As far as known, the design or coordination problem with the wiring was noted about September 2006,
when only a few frames were being wired or ready for wiring. It must be asumed that any further work
was immediately suspended until a corrected design were in place. So why now it is stated that up
to the MSN26 all units will be retrofitted within pre-existing (?!) harnesses, and this allegedly is the
only difference with the MSN27 ??

I am perfectly willing to accept a objective explanation of this seemingly clear inconsistence !! But if
such isnot provided, my perception (again) would be that the fact stated by Zvezda of not availibility of
enough design supports and the reference to such inexistent previously installed harnesses in the
majority of the MSN26- indicates that the final design does not exist as per today !!

Correct me if I am wrong !

Quote:
Quoting Wsp (reply 26)[quote]
Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 17):
and even if the 500 Km wire seems to indicate a non-optimal design , taken in proportion of the smaller B787

Did Boeing publish any numbers for the B787 after they switched back to wired IFE ?

Only less than 2 weeks ago, the 60 miles wiring for the B788 was stated by a Boeing top manager to
the press, obviously much afterwards the wireless was killed (60 miles wireless would be a joke !)

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
Quoting Wsp (Reply 26):
Several people have explained that their conclusion based on Airbus' statements is that all aircraft will have identical wiring and that the difference is that in some it has been retrofitted and in some it will be fitted in the originally envisioned production step with the originally envisioned prefabricated harnesses.

It was never planned for all of the first 26 aircraft to have identical wiring. There are differences from one airline to another. With that exception, I believe what you wrote above is correct. Remember, the type certificate has already been granted. The only problem is with the production certificate. This is about how the aircraft are built, not what is built.

regards

aminobwana
 
cobra27
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:57 pm

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Fri May 25, 2007 5:34 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 1):
Quoting N14AZ (Thread starter):
Almost every hour we have an update about the progress of the first assembly of the 787 including pictures. What about the A380?

Several have already been assembled and are flying. The biggest remaining challenges are production certification and sales.

Why did you have to qoute his topic?
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4175
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Fri May 25, 2007 5:55 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 30):
As far as known, the design or coordination problem with the wiring was noted about September 2006,
when only a few frames were being wired or ready for wiring. It must be asumed that any further work
was immediately suspended until a corrected design were in place.

That is correct.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 30):
So why now it is stated that up
to the MSN26 all units will be retrofitted within pre-existing (?!) harnesses, and this allegedly is the
only difference with the MSN27 ??

Because while only a dozen or so airframes were delivered to Toulouse, the other 14 or so airframe sub assemblies were already in varying stages of completion at their individual production facilities - some were complete, some werent, but of those that cant be done during production, they will have to be rewired to the intermediate standard at Toulouse or Hamburg.

New sub assemblies will have the new wiring from the moment they leave their production facility.
 
scouseflyer
Posts: 2167
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Fri May 25, 2007 5:59 pm

Quoting Moo (Reply 32):
Because while only a dozen or so airframes were delivered to Toulouse, the other 14 or so airframe sub assemblies were already in varying stages of completion at their individual production facilities - some were complete, some werent, but of those that cant be done during production, they will have to be rewired to the intermediate standard at Toulouse or Hamburg.

New sub assemblies will have the new wiring from the moment they leave their production facility.

That is also my understanding
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 1:54 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
Quoting Wsp (Reply 26)
It was never planned for all of the first 26 aircraft to have identical wiring. There are differences from one airline to another. With that exception, I believe what you wrote above is correct. Remember, the type certificate has already been granted. The only problem is with the production certificate. This is about how the aircraft are built, not what is built.



Quoting Moo (Reply 32):
Because while only a dozen or so airframes were delivered to Toulouse, the other 14 or so airframe sub assemblies were already in varying stages of completion at their individual production facilities - some were complete, some werent, but of those that cant be done during production, they will have to be rewired to the intermediate standard at Toulouse or Hamburg.

New sub assemblies will have the new wiring from the moment they leave their production facility

Pls. help me to understand by answering the questions below and correcting what I saying if it is
wrong.. Thanks in advance !


1) The harnesses or the wiring itself were installed already in the sub-assembly sites, then the main
assembly made in Toulouse. shipped to Hamburg, where the wiring itself was completed and
interconected with the sub-systems already in place ?? And that the problem appeared because the
wiring in Hamburg was implemented with another software as designed and therefore did not coordinated
with the already installed subsystems ??

2) Was all the wiring redesigned and for the units MSN26 minus, adapted to the existing harnesses
where already installed ?? As the progress of the old installation was different in each case, to avoid
that each aircraft would have a different installation, are the harnesses now completed as originally
foreseen, and the wiring adapted to these ?? Or each aircraft will be adapted individually, which would
explain the lack of documentation stated by Zvezda ??

If the former, why this is not made for all the following aircrafts for uniformity sake ?? As I remember.
months ago, when AB Germany stated first that the wiring problem was solved, but later retracted by
telling it was solved only for the SQ aircraft, it was said that this solution A found was satisfactory
(today this same solution A seems to be foreseen for all the MSN26 minus), but the final one would
be "better ".
I cannot imagine that only the harnesses type was meant !!

3) MOST important: Please confirm that the connection drawings for a given airline and a given
aircraft type ordered are identical, independently from the delivery position+/-26 and independently
of the connecting wires trajectory !!

regards

aminobwana


]
 
astuteman
Posts: 6406
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 4:27 am

Jeez! Where to start on all this........er, commentary? How about here?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...overy-effort-gathers-momentum.html

Quoting WINGS (Reply 9):
All the frames up to MSN 026 will have to be worked on and re -wired.

NOT Correct! At all, in fact.
quote :- MSN011 (for EK) was the first aircraft to pass Station 30 (where the comprehensive system checks take place), with "the complete, FINAL, wiring installed"!

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
I believe one frame has its (hopefully) final wiring installed

See above - there are certainly more than that.....  yes 

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 17):
My assessment was that even if all aircrafts up to MSN 26 would be delivered with I called a "HAND" or "PROVISIONAL" WIRING, it must be later rewired, obviously a very disruptive procedure. But several forum members opined that this would be no problem, even if meant that many customers would need to operate A380s with different wiring !!

But all these aircraft DON'T have to be re-wired. (Only up to MSN010 presumably).
Airbus have developed a new Production Methodology to be applied from MSN026 onwards. A new Production Methodology is NOT a "different design".

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 17):
In no case the "final" wiring will be in the 1st Singapore aircraft, as AIRBUS states that such would happen not before the MSN 27

NO THEY DID NOT! See above comment. The method of wiring installation is being evolved, NOT the wiring design.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
Now they are, as they stated officially, not able to come up with a final design in time to wire the frames up to MSN26 and therefore intend to deliver a "provisional" (or which its name is).
And if I understand Zvezda well, they have not available the drawings in the quality required for the
certification for this "provisional". And again: if anyone sees this differently, I expect to hear the reasons

But Airbus have NOT stated this!
The reasons for seeing it differently I have outlined above (several times). By re-wiring MSN003 for SQ, Airbus verified the FINAL DESIGN to which (customer specific wiring excepted), ALL A380's will be wired. As Zvezda says, the configuration of THIS frames wiring will form the basis of the certification process.
Frames from MSN026 onwards will employ a new methodology for installing the final design wiring.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 26):
Several people have explained that their conclusion based on Airbus' statements is that all aircraft will have identical wiring and that the difference is that in some it has been retrofitted and in some it will be fitted in the originally envisioned production step with the originally envisioned prefabricated harnesses.

And some will be fitted using even more efficient methodologies  checkmark   thumbsup   Smile

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 28):
The fact that they are providing for up to MSN26 a wiring system that is not final

One final time (you'll be pleased to hear), this is not correct. It is the METHODOLOGY that is not final, not the design.

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 33):
Quoting Moo (Reply 32):
Because while only a dozen or so airframes were delivered to Toulouse, the other 14 or so airframe sub assemblies were already in varying stages of completion at their individual production facilities - some were complete, some werent, but of those that cant be done during production, they will have to be rewired to the intermediate standard at Toulouse or Hamburg.

New sub assemblies will have the new wiring from the moment they leave their production facility.

That is also my understanding

And mine too.  Smile

Regards
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 35):
Airbus have developed a new Production Methodology to be applied from MSN026 onwards. A new Production Methodology is NOT a "different design".

I've been trying to stress this throughout the thread. I hope your explanation will be more clear than mine was.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6406
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 36):
I've been trying to stress this throughout the thread. I hope your explanation will be more clear than mine was.

FWIW I had no problems at all with your explanations.  thumbsup 

Regards
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 6:55 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 35):
Airbus have developed a new Production Methodology to be applied from MSN026 onwards. A new Production Methodology is NOT a "different design".

So MSN001 through MSN010 have one type of wiring installed by a particular production methodology. MSN011 through MSN025 have different wires installed by different production methodology and MSN026 and up will have a third type of wiring installed by a completely different methodology. But all there different types of wires are the "same design", is that correct?

If it is correct something really does not make sense.
 
overcast
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 9:12 pm

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 7:02 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 38):
So MSN001 through MSN010 have one type of wiring installed by a particular production methodology. MSN011 through MSN025 have different wires installed by different production methodology and MSN026 and up will have a third type of wiring installed by a completely different methodology. But all there different types of wires are the "same design", is that correct?

If it is correct something really does not make sense

What Astuteman was clearing saying was that the wiring will be the same, but the first 10 will be reworked to get there, 11 through 25 will be wired to the standard, and then subsequent MSNs will use a new production methodology.

All MSNs will have the same standard of wiring though.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4175
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 38):
So MSN001 through MSN010 have one type of wiring installed by a particular production methodology. MSN011 through MSN025 have different wires installed by different production methodology and MSN026 and up will have a third type of wiring installed by a completely different methodology. But all there different types of wires are the "same design", is that correct?

MSN001 wont have any wiring, its Airbuses fleet aircraft.

MSN002 - MSN025 are being hand wired to a specification at Hamburg and Toulouse.

MSN026 onward will be delivered to Toulouse as fully wired sub assemblies, with the wiring being done at the individual component production facility. This is how they should all have been delivered from about MSN005 onward (I cant remember the exact switchover point, some were always going to be hand wired at Toulouse) prior to the screwup.

There will be differences in the wiring between MSN002-025 and 026+ because the process of wiring was different, but by and large they should be to the same specification.

As I understand it.


Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 34):
1) The harnesses or the wiring itself were installed already in the sub-assembly sites, then the main assembly made in Toulouse. shipped to Hamburg, where the wiring itself was completed and interconected with the sub-systems already in place ?? And that the problem appeared because the wiring in Hamburg was implemented with another software as designed and therefore did not coordinated with the already installed subsystems ??

Correct. The wiring was to be installed in each sub assembly prior to shipping to Toulouse, where it would be plugged together.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 34):
2) Was all the wiring redesigned and for the units MSN26 minus, adapted to the existing harnesses where already installed ?

No, new harnesses were being created in many cases by the rewiring teams.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 34):
As the progress of the old installation was different in each case, to avoid that each aircraft would have a different installation, are the harnesses now completed as originally foreseen, and the wiring adapted to these ??

No, the harnesses being used now are different to those designed in 2004/2005.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 34):
Or each aircraft will be adapted individually, which would
explain the lack of documentation stated by Zvezda ??

Each airline configuration has been adapted individually, each airline aircraft will be wired to the same configuration.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 34):
If the former, why this is not made for all the following aircrafts for uniformity sake ?? As I remember.
months ago, when AB Germany stated first that the wiring problem was solved, but later retracted by
telling it was solved only for the SQ aircraft, it was said that this solution A found was satisfactory
(today this same solution A seems to be foreseen for all the MSN26 minus), but the final one would
be "better ".
I cannot imagine that only the harnesses type was meant !!

Frames prior to MSN026 have a lot of 'on the ground' work being done to them, MSN026 onward will have this work done at the sub assembly facilities prior to delivery to Toulouse FAL.

That is what is mean by the 'final solution' (no connotations meant).

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 34):
3) MOST important: Please confirm that the connection drawings for a given airline and a given
aircraft type ordered are identical, independently from the delivery position+/-26 and independently
of the connecting wires trajectory !!

They wont be identical but they will be very close, individual cases will still be seen because of the nature of the work being done.
 
aussie747
Posts: 1005
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:15 pm

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 13):
Maybe of interest, unfortunatelly in German but there must be an English version of the lastest press release of Airbus somewhere...

http://www.handelsblatt.com/news/Unt...kommt-kabelsalat-in-den-griff.html

Summary (assuming the journalist is reporting correctly)
- first SQ A380 is ready except for final tests
- the next A380 for SQ, EK and QF are even ahead of the time-schedule

Does this mean that the first planes for EK and QF with be delivered earlier than the currently planned AUG 2008?
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4175
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting Aussie747 (Reply 41):

Does this mean that the first planes for EK and QF with be delivered earlier than the currently planned AUG 2008?

Your guess is as good as anyones.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 628
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 7:44 am

So is the plan to EIS 1 plane to SQ this October, then is is 4 or 7 next year before they reach something like 20 in 2009.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 35):
quote :- MSN011 (for EK) was the first aircraft to pass Station 30 (where the comprehensive system checks take place), with "the complete, FINAL, wiring installed"!

Astuteman - I realize this is an item you qouted, but no source was noted. What I have a hard time understanding is IF MSN011 is done with the complete Final wiring installed, why will it take months after EIS to deliver the handful in 2008. BTW, your discussion of the differences between the Design and the Install procedure was right on.

I guess the $ 1B questions to anyone in the know are:

-Why if MSN003 is now wired to the final design and flying will it take 4 more months to EIS? I understand that it has to do with the production certificate, but this seems like forever.

-Why couldn't the line be restarted once the production certificate is obtained if MSN003 is wired and MSN011 is also wired correctly.

- What is the status on the other frames that have already flown and would it be possible to get each rewired. It seems like crewing at 4 months per plane with a 1 month stagger on the line could be easily accomplished.

- What is stopping Airbus from being able to deliver the reworked planes that have already flown within a few months of obtaining the production certificate?


I realize that getting configuration control, getting the newly designed harnesses fabrcated, and other lead times. However, the main problem with the harnesses was wire length and routing so the new harnesses require wire but the connectors, devices, etc. should have already been available from the parts coming for the initial assembly.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6406
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 43):
Astuteman - I realize this is an item you qouted, but no source was noted

The source was the FI article I linked in the same post, Jay.

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 43):
Why couldn't the line be restarted once the production certificate is obtained if MSN003 is wired and MSN011 is also wired correctly

I'm guessing the complexity comes from having different frames in different stages of completion, so (in my speak), several different "build strategies" are required.
I'm guessing that this will have an impact on the production certification, although aircraft production certification is not something I'm familar with - we have no direct equivalent in submarine construction.

MSN011, guessing (yet again) will serve to provide the production cert for MSN's 011-025 or thereabouts, but earlier frames may need alternative certification. Others may be able to shed light.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 38):
If it is correct something really does not make sense.

Hopefully the fact that these early frames, as described above, were halted at different stages of construction whilst the wiring design was finalised, explains why more than one wiring and/or re-wiring methodology will be required.

Regards
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 8:39 am

Lets see if we can agree on this, without emotions, as we were doing lately:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 35):
MSN011 (for EK) was the first aircraft to pass Station 30 (where the comprehensive system checks take place), with "the complete, FINAL, wiring installed"!
--------------------------------------
But all these aircraft DON'T have to be re-wired. (Only up to MSN010 presumably).
Airbus have developed a new Production Methodology to be applied from MSN026 onwards. A new Production Methodology is NOT a "different design

I seem now to understand your point.
You (and other colleagues) wish to convey that MSN11 was checked with the
complete FINAL wiring installed and that this will be the same, only with the secondary differences
resulting from the individual customer orders, for ALL the A380 presently ordered or pre-ordered.
Further, that all up to MSN10 incl., if different from MSN11,will be rewired BEFORE delivery to
customer, including MSN3 for SQ.

Further, as some sub assamblies from MSN12 up to MSN26 were already wired by the old method,
when installing the complete wiring in these frames these sub assemblies will be retro-fitted so to
achieve that all the units up to MSN26 will be IDENTICAL (except the captioned customer related differences)

Finally, as it seems obvious, the rewiring of the units up to MSN10 as well as the retrofitting necessary
for the units MSN12-MSN26 are annoying and costly, but necessary, therefore AB have already
designed a rational methodology for the units MSN27 forward, which will be wired from scratch.

Assuming that all said as above is correct from your and Zvezda's point of view, there remain only
twoopen questions, which seem not to fit into this logical scheme:

No. 1: Customers are not concerned how the manufacturer correct mistakes or makes improvement
during the installing process as long as the results are OK. Much less third party people. The, why
top managers of AB (if I remember well it was the German Production manager and John Leahy)
announced publicly the differences between the units before and after MSN26, and certainly didn't
explain at this moment the issues as you are doing now, by stating that there will be no difference
control- and wiring-wise ??

No. 2: If MSN11's wiring was sumitted to all the needed checks, approved and chosen as FINAL
design for all the aircrafts, how it can be possible as Zvezda states in Reply 4:

Quote:
" Airbus reportedly lost control of the configuration information and had to/is having to
inventory the wiring on the aircraft already built"


(I asume he is referring to MSN11) ??

It is absolutely impossible to check the COMPLETE wiring of such a complicated aircraft without
complete drawings and other documentation in hand and much less verify its compliance with specs.
Of course, I understand that these drawings and documents had incorporated corrections during
the checking process, which must be incorporated in the"clean" version, but this, with the help of
computers, is aeasy and rapid, even in this case bulky process, which could not detain significantly
the certification,

A comprehensive answer to these questions, together of the confirmation that after the necessary
modifications and retrofitting before delivery all frames up to MSN26 will be identical (per customer)
as the following from MSN27 on, would dissipate any doubt regarding this so disturbing issue !!

aminobwana
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1770
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:45 am

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 43):
So is the plan to EIS 1 plane to SQ this October, then is is 4 or 7 next year before they reach something like 20 in 2009.

The plan is for 13 deliveries in 2008, not 4 or 7, followed by 25 in 2009. For every month that Airbus beats or misses this ramp up schedule, they will deliver 4 more or fewer frames by the end of 2009.

Quoting Moo (Reply 40):
MSN001 wont have any wiring, its Airbuses fleet aircraft.

You must be assuming the problem is only in the IFE wiring. This is not the case; the wiring of the whole entire aircraft is involved. MSN001 has quite a lot of that even without a fancy interior.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 45):
Further, that all up to MSN10 incl., if different from MSN11,will be rewired BEFORE delivery to customer, including MSN3 for SQ.

 checkmark  MSN003 is all buttoned up and ready to go. The other three Singapore aircraft currently in Hamburg are probably pretty close as well.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 45):
Of course, I understand that these drawings and documents had incorporated corrections during the checking process, which must be incorporated in the"clean" version, but this, with the help of
computers, is aeasy and rapid, even in this case bulky process, which could not detain significantly
the certification,

Configuration management for a highly complex system that is built at the same time as it is being designed is neither easy nor rapid, even with computers. It is still an engineering-intensive process, i.e. one that expert humans must attend to in detail. No amount of computer automation will ever change that. Airbus has admitted that they did a poor job of change control and were overwhelmed by the volume of changes required.

For those who haven't already read it, I recommend this presentation (Click Here) made by the A380 program manager, Mario Heinen, last October. Straight from the horse's mouth, with lots of details and pictures.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 3:54 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 45):
(I asume (sic) he is referring to MSN11) ??

No, earlier aircraft.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 45):
It is absolutely impossible to check the COMPLETE wiring of such a complicated aircraft without
complete drawings and other documentation in hand and much less verify its compliance with specs.
Of course, I understand that these drawings and documents had incorporated corrections during
the checking process, which must be incorporated in the"clean" version

Yes.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 45):
but this, with the help of
computers, is aeasy (sic) and rapid, even in this case bulky process, which could not detain significantly
the certification,

No. Remember that incompatible versions of CATIA were used. WingedMigrator provided a good explanation above.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6406
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 5:26 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 45):
Then, why top managers of AB (if I remember well it was the German Production manager and John Leahy) announced publicly the differences between the units before and after MSN26, and certainly didn't explain at this moment the issues as you are doing now, by stating that there will be no difference
control- and wiring-wise ??

All I can do is direct you to the article I linked in post #35, where the difference is explicitly stated to be a production methodology It's in the text, as are the words "Final" wiring. The article makes NO mention whatsoever of differences in design  no  .

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 45):
It is absolutely impossible to check the COMPLETE wiring of such a complicated aircraft without complete drawings and other documentation in hand and much less verify its compliance with specs.

My understanding of this has been that MSN003 has been used as a working prototype for the "final" wiring solution, with the "design" being "reverse engineered" through the process of re-wiring this (MSN003) aircraft. This completed aircraft's wiring solution has been made the "final" wiring solution.
Part of the huge delays, no doubt, is that, until this was actually done, documented, incorporated into the design, and approved, there was no point in even starting any wiring, or re-wiring work on any other aircraft. So the whole A380 programme has had to wait for the team to pull MSN003 to bits, re-wire it, put it back together again, and document the result.

Quoting Moo (Reply 40):
No, new harnesses were being created in many cases by the rewiring teams.

 checkmark  Again, my understanding is that, during this process on MSN003, the teams "production engineered" the solution, as well as "reverse-engineered" it, identifying new harnesses and better "modularisation" of the cabling, substantially improving the efficiency of the long-term installation process.

Quoting Moo (Reply 40):
There will be differences in the wiring between MSN002-025 and 026+ because the process of wiring was different, but by and large they should be to the same specification

 checkmark  A perfect explanation if I may say so.
Unfortunately, as I understand it, Aminobwana, the harnesses for frames up to MSN025 had already been designed and assembled, and therefore the decision was made to proceed with these harnesses for those frames. From MSN026 onwards, the revised harnesses will be delivered to the various assembly sites, and installed using the more efficient process.
Once installed, the complete wiring will look the same. It will just be broken down into different sub-assemblies (harnesses). As Moo says, it's possible there may be some detailed differences (i.e someconnectors in different places), but in terms of functionality, or the intrinsic value of the finished aircraft, there should be no difference.

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 46):
Configuration management for a highly complex system that is built at the same time as it is being designed is neither easy nor rapid, even with computers. It is still an engineering-intensive process, i.e. one that expert humans must attend to in detail

Double  checkmark   Smile

There's a real tendency for people to overestimate the impact that computers can have on the labour intensity of a process like this. In fact, during the re-engineering, the computer systems probably ADD work, the benefit downstream being the superb control and dissemination of data that computers are so good for.

Regards
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4175
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Any News On The A380 Assembly?

Sat May 26, 2007 7:11 pm

[/quote]

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 46):
You must be assuming the problem is only in the IFE wiring. This is not the case; the wiring of the whole entire aircraft is involved. MSN001 has quite a lot of that even without a fancy interior.

MSN001 was totally and utterly hand wired at Toulouse, there was no problem with its wiring because it was not as complex. All of the frames that are currently sitting at Hamburg flew there, so its safe to assume that the generic wiring (ie that which is not part of the cabin furnishings) is OK when there is no need to accommodate the extra wiring.

There are many things that are different between MSN001 and MSN002 onward.

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