n1786b
Posts: 384
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Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 4:52 pm

Just hit the wire....
+ 2 A380s
+ 30 A32X
+ 18 777s (including 5 777Fs)

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...46_PAC008194&type=comktNews&rpc=44

Interesting that they state the follow on order for the A380s is PART of the compensation deal.


- n1786b

PS: why was this announced before the air show?
 
WINGS
Posts: 2312
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 5:00 pm

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
Just hit the wire....
+ 2 A380s
+ 30 A32X
+ 18 777s (including 5 777Fs)

This sound like a great move from Air France. They finally resolved the A380 penalties, will most likely start to replace early built A32X's and replace their remaining A343 with the B777.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 5:04 pm

That brings 777 orders to at least 970. 1000 might be reached this year. I had been expecting that would happen only next year.
 
MD-90
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 5:07 pm

If the 777 order is to "phase out 747 aircraft" like the article says, then I suppose this is an add-on order for more 773ERs?

I wonder how much of a discount Air France got for those two A380s.
 
CrazyHorse
Posts: 316
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 5:16 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 4):
If the 777 order is to "phase out 747 aircraft" like the article says, then I suppose this is an add-on order for more 773ERs?

I think the same, AF is very happy with their B77W and the B77W is a good replacement for their old B747-400 in their fleet.
Great news for Airbus, Boeing and also AF.
 
AF Cabin Crew
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 5:20 pm

Ia Orana all !

You can also go to www.airfrance.fr or www.airfrance.com and download this year's results and you will see that AF-KL operating income is up by 32.5 % to 1.24 billion Euro, revenues are up 7.6% to 23.07 billion euros

Well done Air France-KLM !

Happy Flying,

AF Cabin Crew
Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
 
UA777300ER
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 5:32 pm

With the 45 777s currently in AF fleet, 11 more on order and the 18 ordered today, they will reach a fleet of 74 B777s. This will probably make them the third biggest T7 operator, behind EK (with 47 in the fleet and 42 on order with Boeing) and SQ (with 67 in the fleet and 10 more on order). Not bad...
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 5:35 pm

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
Interesting that they state the follow on order for the A380s is PART of the compensation deal.

But reading the article it looks like cash is the other part rather than some A350XWBs
 
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PM
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 5:53 pm

Quoting UA777300ER (Reply 9):
With the 45 777s currently in AF fleet, 11 more on order and the 18 ordered today, they will reach a fleet of 74 B777s. This will probably make them the third biggest T7 operator, behind EK (with 47 in the fleet and 42 on order with Boeing) and SQ (with 67 in the fleet and 10 more on order).

I'm with you on the AF and SQ numbers but I think you may have missed a couple of EK announcements. (Perhaps leases?) They have a total of 98 in service, on order or to be leased.

98 ?!!!  wideeyed 
 
TYCOON
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 5:56 pm

I think we overstate the "mass controversy" such an order would have caused during the Paris Air Show. It wouldn't have. Has any one stopped to ask why Air France is so GE dedicated? Simple answer: the French engine manufacture Snecma has a significant stake in the GE90 (almost 25%) and 50% of the CFM-56 engines (that power their A32X fleet).

We will likely see in the future a more streamlined AF/KLM fleet with B777s and A330s as their widebody core fleet, with a relatively small but solid A380 component for heavy traffic routes, and a A32X for the narrowbodies. I don't see the B737s in KL's fleet in their for much longer (either sold off or transferred to Transavia).
 
Someone83
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 5:57 pm

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 13):
But to be honest I don't think they payed too much for them, and on a second taught why 2. ? It sure smells like an "almost giveaway compensation for all the trouble we caused

Those 2 where 2 out of 4 options that was changed to firm orders, so I would be surprised for another top-up order of 2 more in the future
 
UA777300ER
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 5:58 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 12):
I'm with you on the AF and SQ numbers but I think you may have missed a couple of EK announcements. (Perhaps leases?) They have a total of 98 in service, on order or to be leased.

I was aware of that, that's why I mentioned 'on order with Boeing'. Thanks for giving the total number.

It is indeed impressive, especially when you consider that there are 42 (?) A380's coming, as well as an A350/B787 order (which some people claim will be for 100 airframes). I have to say that I have no idea what they're going to do with all that capacity. But hopefully, they do...
 
AF Cabin Crew
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 5:58 pm

Ia Orana all !

Heard that 2/3 of the A320s will replace older models and the other third is to increase the fleet. The 13 777s are going to replace the 744 fleet.

Happy Flying,

AF Cabin Crew
Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
 
rootsair
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 6:04 pm

Quoting AF Cabin Crew (Reply 17):
The 13 777s are going to replace the 744 fleet.

what shame Sad no more AF744's...I was hoping they'd go for the 748 at least
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
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PM
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 6:05 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 14):
Snecma has a significant stake in the GE90 (almost 25%) and 50% of the CFM-56

But, interestingly, no comparable stake in the GEnx...

Quoting UA777300ER (Reply 16):
when you consider that there are 42 (?) A380's coming

47 at the last count with rumours of more to come soon!
 
kappel
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 6:31 pm

What makes me wonder is:
1) AF/KL record profits of EUR 1.25 bln
2) They call this profit "disappointing" and will launch a cost cutting plan of EUR 1.4 bln (Goodbye KLM brand in 2 years? It's beginning to look like it unfortunately IMHO)
3) AF places large EUR7bln order
4) KLM announces it will hold on to its Fokkers and MD11's for a while.

My point: While AF is shaping up to have a very young fleet, with the old a320's and 744's leaving the fleet, while KLM only has a few aircraft on order, but no immediate plans to replace their oldest aircraft (733, 734, 744). Why are these airlines being treated differently? Seeing as how the KLM board will comprise more and more of AF people, they have a large say in KLM matters. So my guess this is on purpose. What's going on here? Or am I reading too much into all this?
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na
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 6:52 pm

Bad surprise in the morning. Sadly this makes it unlikely that the 748I will find its way to AF. Too bad, this order. Anyway, AF has never been an airline for me. Each time I took them in the past, there was a bad surprise.
 
GoMEA
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 6:56 pm

Too bad!!! I will miss AF's 747's... I discovered them on the CDG-SFO route last summer and got upper deck seating in economy... A true economy + product with the quietness of a first class...

excellent service too on Long Haul, no wonder why they perform so well
MEA raising the Cedar far up in the sky
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 7:00 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 4):
I wonder how much of a discount Air France got for those two A380s

I wonder how much of a discount they got for those 18 777s... and if all of them would be -300ERs.
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KL577
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 20):
Goodbye KLM brand in 2 years? It's beginning to look like it unfortunately IMHO)

I think KLM CEO (Peter Hartman) this morning stated that both brands will remain for at least five years (i.e. their current planning horizon).
 
OceansWorld
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting AF Cabin Crew (Reply 17):
Heard that 2/3 of the A320s will replace older models

A good number of the older have been delivered to Air France and Air Inter around 19 years ago. I think they must already have a rather high number of cycles.

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 18):
what shame no more AF744's...I was hoping they'd go for the 748 at least

Perhaps that AF only wants to keep down the number of aircraft types.

[Edited 2007-05-24 12:06:36]
 
legoguy
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 7:09 pm

Quoting AF Cabin Crew (Reply 17):
The 13 777s are going to replace the 744 fleet.

So if the 747's are to be replaced, what will they fly to St Maartens? 773ER? Can one of these triple 7 beasts land at St Marteens?
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 7:17 pm

At the beginning of this year, Air France had 16 passenger B744s in the fleet. Since then, 2 of these aircraft (F-GISA and F-GISB) have been retired from the passenger fleet, with a third one (F-GISC) following later this year. That leaves 13 B744 frames in the active passenger fleet, and they will be replaced by 13 B77Ws ordered today. The other 5 triple seven orders are for the freighther division.

Unlike the B77W in the current AF mainline fleet, which are equipped in a 3-class layout, these additional frames will see a 2-class configuration only as AF will use them to the current high density B744 destinations, including YUL, YYZ, JFK, ATL, MEX, CCS, GIG and DEL. This add on order for more B77Ws had long been expected and has been discussed here many times before.
 
Leskova
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 7:20 pm

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
PS: why was this announced before the air show?

Because, despite all the nonsense you get to read on a.net, Airbus will disclose details of a deal even a short time before an airshow if the customer so choses; the customer decides when the details are released - not Airbus.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
raggi
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 7:26 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 28):

So what will be the total breakdown of 777s in AF's fleet including this latest order?

25 772ERs
10 777Fs
39 773ERs


is this correct?



raggi
Stick & Rudder
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 7:27 pm

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):

Wow large order but I´ld have expected a larger 380 order !

When will they choose between 350 and 787 ? Still this year ?

LH order to come !! Big grin Can´t wait !

Konstantin
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
Virgin747LGW
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 7:41 pm

so does anyone know total A320 family sales because i think the airbus site is a little out of date!
 
kappel
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 7:42 pm

Quoting KL577 (Reply 25):
I think KLM CEO (Peter Hartman) this morning stated that both brands will remain for at least five years (i.e. their current planning horizon).

Yes, but if I've counted correctly, the five year term ends in 2008. The cost reduction program runs through 2010.

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 27):
So if the 747's are to be replaced, what will they fly to St Maartens? 773ER? Can one of these triple 7 beasts land at St Marteens?

They fly the a343 to St Maarten (or St Martin for the French) so no change of equipment necessary. KLM flew to SXM with the 744, but now deploys the MD11 to SXM.
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moo
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 7:46 pm

Quoting Virgin747LGW (Reply 32):
so does anyone know total A320 family sales because i think the airbus site is a little out of date!

5076 to the end of April 2007.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting Raggi (Reply 30):
So what will be the total breakdown of 777s in AF's fleet including this latest order?

25 772ERs
10 777Fs
39 773ERs


is this correct?

I believe these numbers to be correct. All B772ERs are mainline 3-class configured aircraft (4P, 49J, 211Y), whereas there will be 3 different versions of the passenger B77W: the mainline 3-class low density version and 3-class high density ORY based Caribbean and Indian Ocean version and a new 2-class mainline configuration that will replace the current 2-class B744 aircraft.
 
KL577
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 8:16 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 27):
Quoting KL577 (Reply 25):
I think KLM CEO (Peter Hartman) this morning stated that both brands will remain for at least five years (i.e. their current planning horizon).

Yes, but if I've counted correctly, the five year term ends in 2008. The cost reduction program runs through 2010.

Nu.nl is reporting that Hartman stated that the company structure will remain the same (two brands, three activities) in the coming five years from now. Hence the brand names KLM and Air France will exist seperately at least until 2012.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 8:28 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 9):
Has any one stopped to ask why Air France is so GE dedicated?

Yes, but if it were a "Go France" thing, they'd be keeping more currency in France by buying from Airbus than by using GE engines with SNECMA as a partner. Air France has shown a preference for GE everywhere. Maybe they are just really happy with GE...
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
parapente
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 8:38 pm

Excuse me for being stupid here. But if the A380 were PART of a compensation deal (the rest in cash) it implies that they were GIVEN these planes! That can't be right (or Airbus is going bust very soon if you consider all their A380 clients). If they mean they got a discount then why the "cash component" why not just discount further? Finally why say it at all ?(other to slight Airbus and crow about the discount) -it is unusual business practice.It implies they didn't really want them at all really which could harm Airbus for no personal gain. (Then again I am not French)
 
OGGFBORefueler
Posts: 66
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 8:38 pm

I've noticed that within this order only 2 A380's been ordered, have they placed an order for more or are these 2 just the 2 lone frames?

Aloha!
Keone
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moo
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 8:42 pm

Quoting OGGFBORefueler (Reply 33):
I've noticed that within this order only 2 A380's been ordered, have they placed an order for more or are these 2 just the 2 lone frames?

Air France has a current order for 10 frames, this brings it up to 12 total, with 2 outstanding options.
 
Danny
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 8:43 pm

Quoting Parapente (Reply 32):
If they mean they got a discount then why the "cash component" why not just discount further?

For example cash can be given now while discount on A380s in 3-5 years.
 
Virgin747LGW
Posts: 103
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting Moo (Reply 28):
Quoting Virgin747LGW (Reply 32):
so does anyone know total A320 family sales because i think the airbus site is a little out of date!

5076 to the end of April 2007.


thats the number on airbus website which is know is out of date, when will they update it?
 
OGGFBORefueler
Posts: 66
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 8:51 pm

Quoting Moo (Reply 34):

Thanks Mate! Big grin

Aloha!
Keone  cool 
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na
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 8:52 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 22):
At the beginning of this year, Air France had 16 passenger B744s in the fleet. Since then, 2 of these aircraft (F-GISA and F-GISB) have been retired from the passenger fleet, with a third one (F-GISC) following later this year.

First time I hear this. I somehow remember that AF has sold a few 744s a few months ago, but not for delivery this year. Can´t remember who bought them.

Too sad.
 
parapente
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 8:53 pm

Yes but Air France clearly does not need cash looking at its profits whereas Airbus needs it more than anything right now.They would have got a far better deal with a discount (again unless they did not really want them.)
 
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moo
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 8:53 pm

Quoting Virgin747LGW (Reply 36):

thats the number on airbus website which is know is out of date, when will they update it?

After the end of May, usually somewhere around the 8th depending on when the end of the month falls in relation to weekends.

Airbus works on a monthly orderbook cycle.
 
raggi
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 29):
Quoting Raggi (Reply 30):
So what will be the total breakdown of 777s in AF's fleet including this latest order?

25 772ERs
10 777Fs
39 773ERs


is this correct?

I believe these numbers to be correct.

I guess this will make AF the biggest GE90 operator in the world then... Closely followed by EK.


raggi
Stick & Rudder
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 9:09 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 38):
I somehow remember that AF has sold a few 744s a few months ago, but not for delivery this year. Can´t remember who bought them.

The 2 + 1 B744s that have been/will be withdrawn from the passenger fleet are destined for cargo conversion and will stay with AF as such. F-GISA and F-GISB have already left. F-GISE will leave at the end of this year. That will leave 13 passenger B744s for high density lower premium demand destinations to be replaced with 13 of the 18 B77Ws ordered today.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 9:13 pm

Good news all around, but with such a large 773ER order designed to replace the 744s, one wonders how this affects the 787-A350 deliberations, as now the A350-1000 becomes less necessary in the "near term" so the comparison will probably be the 787-8/787-9 and the A358/A359.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 9:16 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 9):
Has any one stopped to ask why Air France is so GE dedicated? Simple answer: the French engine manufacture Snecma has a significant stake in the GE90 (almost 25%) and 50% of the CFM-56 engines (that power their A32X fleet).

My impression has been that AF buy based on what works best for them with no apparent political overtones.
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 9:17 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):
one wonders how this affects the 787-A350 deliberations

AF/KL still need to replace an almost 30-strong fleet of 19 A343 + 10 MD11, and I would expect a joint order for this replacement, at least these are the rumblings within the company.
 
parapente
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 9:20 pm

Here is a "what if". A growing number of airlines are bypassing the 7478.More by the day.What if at Paris we hear that BA has ordered say 30 A380's and 40 787's? Which premium airline would dare to go for the smaller less spacious option?
 
PEET7G
Posts: 468
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 9:22 pm

So with this order the 777 count stands at 970 orders minus the 2 cancelled by AC, right? Pretty close to 1000 now. Any bets when they will hit the millenium mark? Big grin
Peet7G
 
zvezda
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 9:36 pm

Already 69 777 orders this year. That's amazing. 100 this year seems very possible now.
 
TGV
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 9:38 pm

Let's see this from a passenger point of view (me !).

Replacing 320 with 320: indifferent (I am confident AF maintains well its planes, so flying in an "old" 320 does not bother me.

Replacing 744 with 77W: BAD and BAD.
Bad because the comfort of the 774 Upper Deck will be lost. And I don't like the noisy 777 (give me a 343 any day).
Bad because, even with the 2 class config, the number of seats will go down, and so the prices will go up.

Cost cutting plan of 1.4 billion euros: BAD because obviously this will mean some reduction in the quality of service.

So I am not thrilled with what has been announced by AF.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)