rootsair
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Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sat May 26, 2007 9:15 pm

Why does ELעל ALאל cargo have a different livery that the rest of EL AL fleet. They seem to have the old EL AL livery. Does this and the fact its only writtten cargo have something to do with security? However I guess that by this time, maany people know its an EL AL a/c.
Could anyone clarify this question

thanks

Regards
BM



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[Edited 2007-05-26 14:17:30]
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CO7e7
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RE: Why ELòì ALàì Different Livery

Sat May 26, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
Does this and the fact its only writtten cargo have something to do with security?

it could be.... but i think it might have something to do with $$$$$$... you know LY is not in the best financial shape right now.....
 
777way
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sat May 26, 2007 9:46 pm

Many threads have been started on this subject over the years, the last one was just a few months back, livery can be changed after aircraft get D check, I think they dont want to change livery as they do not see Cargo branch important enough for promoting their brand, its alot about marketing too.
 
heliflyerPDC
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sat May 26, 2007 10:04 pm

I heard it had to do with some type of security.

Quoting 777way (Reply 2):
they do not see Cargo branch important enough

I thought that for many airlines the cargo delivers a very big part of the profit

interesting subject, I'm curious what the answer will be  Wink

grtz PDC
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avi
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sat May 26, 2007 10:10 pm

At least this one has the old livery. Some of the other cargo aircrafts are simply white.

Quoting 777way (Reply 2):
I think they dont want to change livery as they do not see Cargo branch important enough for promoting their brand,

Are you joking? The cargo branch keeps this airline alive. Take the cargo from them and that is the end of them.
Long live the B747
 
egnr
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sat May 26, 2007 10:35 pm

At least some of them are getting the new titles similar to the passenger operation:


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RayChuang
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sat May 26, 2007 10:44 pm

Cargo planes often have simplier liveries for this reason: lower weight, which means lower fuel bills and/or a smidge more cargo capacity. Why do you think NW's 747-200F fleet has a bare-metal fuselage?
 
egnr
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sat May 26, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 6):
Why do you think NW's 747-200F fleet has a bare-metal fuselage?

The new look NWA cargo fleet is painted as per the passenger operation.


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heliflyerPDC
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sat May 26, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 6):
Why do you think NW's 747-200F fleet has a bare-metal fuselage

what about the 3 special scheme's?

grtz PDC
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aa1818
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sun May 27, 2007 12:20 am

I believe it has to do with security. The cost of providing the levels of security for cargo ops as well as commercial ops would be prohibitive. I think the cargo planes do not wear the titles for security reasons so they are less of a target.

Just a guess though!
AA1818
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WJ
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sun May 27, 2007 12:38 am

This had been discussed to death before. This is all about security, not $$$ or weights or anything like that. Elal cargo flys all over the world, including many places that Israel has no official ties with and at times out-right hostile countries. There is no need for a big Star of David "bullseye" on the tail, it is sometimes dangerous enough as it is.

The cargo branch is in fact critical to LY and is a very high producer of revenue but again, it does not need the extra advertising on the livery.
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LXA340
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sun May 27, 2007 5:22 am

Those 742's are pretty old are there any plans to get used 744s etc for EL AL cargo?
 
todaReisinger
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sun May 27, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting EGNR (Reply 5):
At least some of them are getting the new titles similar to the passenger operation:

Yes, but the plane on the picture has the original logo...which LY has stupidly changed. The "new" one doesn't yet appear on the airplanes (it will surely on the new 777s Sad ) but is already used for all marketing items.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 1):
but i think it might have something to do with $$$$$$... you know LY is not in the best financial shape right now.....

"not in the best financial shape"...indeed....and that would have been yet another good reason not to change the logo...those changes are very costly. And in the present case, it is a totally unnecessary move because the original logo is MUCH MORE beautiful than the new rounded version.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 9):
I think the cargo planes do not wear the titles for security reasons so they are less of a target.

I don't think security has anything to do with this question, cargo airplanes are anyway not an "interesting" target for terrorists, since there are no passengers to harm...
But it might be a useful camouflage...in order not to be identified when taking off and landing in the midst of Shabbat at TLV...

Quoting Avi (Reply 4):
At least this one has the old livery. Some of the other cargo aircrafts are simply white.

It seems the whole cargo fleet is in the process of getting that wonderful "all white" livery... Here is 4X-AXF in its old and new liveries...:


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WJ
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sun May 27, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 12):
I don't think security has anything to do with this question, cargo airplanes are anyway not an "interesting" target for terrorists, since there are no passengers to harm...
But it might be a useful camouflage...in order not to be identified when taking off and landing in the midst of Shabbat at TLV...

You deffinitly have a point with the Shabbat as Elal Cargo does fly 7 days a week but it is mostly about security and just staying low profile. LY has enough to worry about when these planes land at some hostile regions, there is no need for added worries from someone seeing the israeli flag coming in to land from outside the airport and deciding to do something about it. They may not have passengers on them but they are a symbol, not to mention the Israeli flight crews.
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Marambio
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sun May 27, 2007 8:50 am

Quoting WJ (Reply 10):
Elal cargo flys all over the world, including many places that Israel has no official ties with and at times out-right hostile countries.



Quoting WJ (Reply 13):
LY has enough to worry about when these planes land at some hostile regions

I have been looking for any LY Cargo hostile destination and thus far found nothing. Its destinations are all in countries Israel has fully diplomatical ties with, and some are also served by LY passenger service - with the full Star of David, "Israel Airlines" livery. Besides, LY Cargo's airplanes are 4X-registered and a minimum research would tell anybody that they are Israeli.

I kinda like TodaReisinger's theory of Shabbat-camouflage, though.

Saludos,
Marambio
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WJ
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sun May 27, 2007 9:30 am

Quoting Marambio (Reply 14):
I have been looking for any LY Cargo hostile destination and thus far found nothing. Its destinations are all in countries Israel has fully diplomatical ties with, and some are also served by LY passenger service - with the full Star of David, "Israel Airlines" livery. Besides, LY Cargo's airplanes are 4X-registered and a minimum research would tell anybody that they are Israeli.

LY cargo airplanes fly to many more destinations on an ad-hoc basis than they may publish on some schedule. The 4X designation does stand but it's hardly as visible in-flight as a big flag painted on the tail of a 747. Maybe it's tough for people to comprehend that Israel and Israelis are still not very welcome in significant parts of the globe.
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aa87
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sun May 27, 2007 1:39 pm

I recall asking an LY crew/friend about this years ago and being told it was the sabbath issue, not security. EL Al does not fly sundown Fri-Sat, huge political issue (they recently violated a few times for op reasons and some ultra-orthodox leaders were advocating a punitive boycott). To avoid this issue many years ago, they "separated" cargo ops, and I understand they even used the "Cargo Air Lines" call sign so they could honestly deny that "El Al" was flying on the sabbath.

To any Israelis in the know, pls confirm or correct if I'm mistaken.
 
Starglider
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sun May 27, 2007 7:46 pm

Quoting AA87 (Reply 16):
EL Al does not fly sundown Fri-Sat, huge political issue (they recently violated a few times for op reasons and some ultra-orthodox leaders were advocating a punitive boycott). To avoid this issue many years ago, they "separated" cargo ops, and I understand they even used the "Cargo Air Lines" call sign so they could honestly deny that "El Al" was flying on the sabbath.

Is this limitation, not flying on the sabbath, only applicable to EL AL? If not, it wouldn't matter what titles you paint on the aircraft as long as the registration starts with 4X.

The cargo paintscheme is probably just a practical one. Cargo aircraft are subject to more wear and tear (higher utilization) than the passenger variants. A simpler paint scheme means less downtime to touch up or replace.


Regards,
Starglider
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Sun May 27, 2007 9:55 pm

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):

----JUST because they are Jewish--------what a stupid world we live in----duh.
(Most people never stop and think about what it would be like to be hated JUST because of who they are-------but this belongs in a different topic-----)

I

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
LY cargo airplanes fly to many more destinations on an ad-hoc basis than they may publish

This is true.

Quoting WJ (Reply 10):
This had been discussed to death before. This is all about security

 checkmark 
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
todaReisinger
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Mon May 28, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting Starglider (Reply 17):
Is this limitation, not flying on the sabbath, only applicable to EL AL? If not, it wouldn't matter what titles you paint on the aircraft as long as the registration starts with 4X.

The cargo paintscheme is probably just a practical one. Cargo aircraft are subject to more wear and tear (higher utilization) than the passenger variants. A simpler paint scheme means less downtime to touch up or replace.

The legal ban introduced in 1982 was only for LY, since at the time it was anyway the only State owned international airline. The charter subsidiary Sun d'Or was also not concerned, neither Arkia or Israir. Nowadays, it's not a legal issue anymore, since LY is no more a State owned entity, but, as recently witnessed, the pressure of the ultra religious passengers is strong enough to oblige LY not to fly on Shabbat...


Re the practical side of the livery...I think LY's current livery is not that complicated or heavy to apply and maintain.....
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
777way
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Mon May 28, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting Avi (Reply 4):
Quoting 777way (Reply 2):
I think they dont want to change livery as they do not see Cargo branch important enough for promoting their brand,

Are you joking? The cargo branch keeps this airline alive. Take the cargo from them and that is the end of them.

No need to get worked up, it was just a thought.

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
LY cargo airplanes fly to many more destinations on an ad-hoc basis than they may publish on some schedule

Why no pictures in the database of these adhoc flights more so at hostile places.

Quoting AA87 (Reply 16):
I recall asking an LY crew/friend about this years ago and being told it was the sabbath issue, not security. EL Al does not fly sundown Fri-Sat, huge political issue (they recently violated a few times for op reasons and some ultra-orthodox leaders were advocating a punitive boycott).

Ridiculous, it was reported on BBC that the Orthodox are now seeking a seprate bus trailer for women commuters in Tel Aviv like they have in Iran.
 
WJ
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Mon May 28, 2007 3:59 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 20):

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
LY cargo airplanes fly to many more destinations on an ad-hoc basis than they may publish on some schedule

Why no pictures in the database of these adhoc flights more so at hostile places.

Maybe because some of these places dont have much of A.net presense? Look, I wont pretend to know where LY cargo planes have ended up in the world but if you go just by where the scheduled service is, of course you will only see AMS, JFK, LHR, TLV and a couple more. There are not too many pictures from remote locations in Pakistan, Iran, Uganda, Indonesia, Sri Lanka and god knows where else. Israel always ends up sending rescue teams to disaster zones around the world and its not always locations where ground security can be set up quickly to mirror standard LY stations. Why is it so difficult to understand that this is just another precaution?

Cheers.
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avi
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Tue May 29, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 20):
No need to get worked up,

I didn't nor I didn't try to offense you. If you did, I apologize.
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a380us
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Tue May 29, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 1):
you know LY is not in the best financial shape right now.....

who is?
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avi
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Tue May 29, 2007 2:24 am

Quoting A380US (Reply 23):
who is?

You can find some but El-Al was badly hurt from the unexpected war last summer in Israel.
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zanl188
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Tue May 29, 2007 2:39 am

Don't forget certain liveries are not acceptable for overflight in some countries.
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BMED
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Tue May 29, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 20):
Why no pictures in the database of these adhoc flights more so at hostile places

Could be because security is very tight at these kind of places?
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a380us
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Tue May 29, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting Avi (Reply 24):
You can find some but El-Al was badly hurt from the unexpected war last summer in Israel.

so other airlines that have quit some trafic in TLV should also be such as BA LH and especially 6H and IZ
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todaReisinger
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Tue May 29, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting Avi (Reply 24):
You can find some but El-Al was badly hurt from the unexpected war last summer in Israel.

The (disastrous) war of last summer is BY FAR not the only reason for El Al's catastrophic situation. The airline was already in deep trouble long before that war.
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
avi
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Tue May 29, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting A380US (Reply 27):
so other airlines that have quit some trafic in TLV should also be such as BA LH and especially 6H and IZ

Of course LH, BA and everybody else lost traffic too but you can't compare it (a single destination out of many – no matter how important it is) to a company which it is her base.

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 28):
The (disastrous) war of last summer is BY FAR not the only reason for El Al's catastrophic situation. The airline was already in deep trouble long before that war.

Of course it is not the only reason and it is not like everything was ok before the war, but they did badly hurt.
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jfk787nyc
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RE: Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?

Tue May 29, 2007 8:55 pm

EL AL does fly cargo to arab countries. There Cargo business is very profitable they have something like three flights daily from JFK.

They have a startegic low profile hub in Amsterdam.

But fly to arab countries via Luxemberg. EL AL Cargo has three flights daily from JFK.

One Direct Tel Aviv
One Amsterdam
One Luxemberg

sometimes more. I have shipped cargo from New York to Africa via Luxemberg. I have also shipped cargo to Dubai via Luxemberg.

These planes never enter Tel Aviv on their journey.

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