nuggetsyl
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 11:46 pm

Skybus Pay Rates

Mon May 28, 2007 9:02 am

I heard that skybus pays there fas $9.00 an hour and pilots 75,000 a year. For a fa this seems ungodly low. Is this true? And if so is it just starting first year pay or is $9.00 an hour just it?
 
michman
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:51 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Mon May 28, 2007 9:14 am

Don't know if there is a seniority based pay-scale, but I do know they receive a commission on the items they sell onboard.
 
nuggetsyl
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 11:46 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Mon May 28, 2007 9:21 am

Quoting Michman (Reply 1):
Don't know if there is a seniority based pay-scale, but I do know they receive a commission on the items they sell onboard

What selling coke and pillows???????
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Mon May 28, 2007 9:23 am

$9.00 an hour, if Skybus pays doors closed to doors opened, is about $8,100 a year. That's assuming they fly 75 hours a month, which is probably about the average.
 
crogalski
Posts: 477
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:09 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Mon May 28, 2007 10:01 am

On APC, they show a pathetic starting salary for FOs at $30,000 and CAPTs at $65,000...
A319 A320 A321 A330 B717 B727 B737 B747 B757 B767 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 DC9 E145 E190 MD88 Q400 | AA AB B6 CO DL EI FL NK
 
JayDub
Posts: 359
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:14 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Mon May 28, 2007 10:26 am

Yet another reason why SkyBus needs to go away.

Those payscales are setting a precedent that is just plain scary...and why it bothers me that everyone here is on board with the SkyBus idea.

So many here complain about the lack of service, how FA's, how customer service personnel are idiots, and how the golden age of air travel is over...then they fall all over themselves at the thought of $10 fares. When airlines like SkyBus succeed, other airlines follow suit, and they become the reason air travel sucks.

[Edited 2007-05-28 03:32:37]
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
nuggetsyl
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 11:46 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Mon May 28, 2007 10:36 am

Why the hell would would anyone work for 8000 a year? That is the dumbest thing i have ever heard.
 
Superfreak
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:34 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Mon May 28, 2007 10:50 am

I seem to recall this discussion on previous threads. There must be something else to the compensation package that draws people in since they've obviously hired pilots and flight attendants. They wouldn't be flying if they couldn't get these folks hired and trained. From what I understand, the requirements for either position were more stringent than expected, so they clearly got more for their money on the salary piece. Hence, the reason why it would appear there is something else in the package that attracts the right kind of candidate. I don't know what it could be, but I think it would be safe to say that with all the other information they've managed to keep to themselves, there is a good chance it includes benefits information. These guys seem to be holding on to a lot of secrets very, very well. "Keep 'em guessing" isn't exactly a fool's strategy, either. If I were you, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions. IMHO
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Mon May 28, 2007 11:16 am

Quoting Superfreak (Reply 7):
There must be something else to the compensation package that draws people in since they've obviously hired pilots and flight attendants.

Or not. There are pilots who will fly for Skybus to get large airplane time and an A-320 type rating; they will move along to greener pastures by and large when they can. There are Flight Attendants who think this will be a glamorous life, and will think they can do OK financially from commissions off the cokes and pillows they sell. They will be wrong. In both cases, the problem isn't recruitment, the problem is retention. I highly doubt there is some amazing fringe benefit that has not been ferreted out here in their compensation package.
 
Superfreak
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:34 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Thu May 31, 2007 1:59 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 8):
I highly doubt there is some amazing fringe benefit that has not been ferreted out here in their compensation package.

I never said amazing, and just because it's not on A.net doesn't mean it fails to exist.
 
atomother
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 8:47 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Thu May 31, 2007 2:07 pm

So if people are willing to take jobs flying for these low salaries in hopes of getting some A320 time and then moving on, where are they moving on to?

Some may say to major airlines like United, American and Delta but they won't be offering reasonable salaries either if they are competing against skybus types where labor is nearly free.

Anyone who works for these companies for that low of pay is doing nothing more than hurting this industry and themselves. Hopefully they are blacklisted by anyone who conducts interviews in the future.
 
joffie
Posts: 815
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:45 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Thu May 31, 2007 3:53 pm

Yes, according to several articles I have read, the Flight Attendants only get $9 per hour, and 10% commission of each item sold.

Try wikipedia or several news sites to obtain more information.
 
Superfreak
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:34 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Thu May 31, 2007 5:13 pm

Quoting Atomother (Reply 10):
So if people are willing to take jobs flying for these low salaries in hopes of getting some A320 time and then moving on, where are they moving on to?

Some may say to major airlines like United, American and Delta but they won't be offering reasonable salaries either if they are competing against skybus types where labor is nearly free.

Anyone who works for these companies for that low of pay is doing nothing more than hurting this industry and themselves. Hopefully they are blacklisted by anyone who conducts interviews in the future.

Yawn...so it begins with the salary mud-slinging. It's funny that you mention "hurting this industry" by the way. It seems to me, as an aviation consumer, that the previously well-paid legacy carrier employees did far more to hurt this industry than a low-frills/no-frills carrier ever has. From another perspective, you could make your same argument against all those who demanded higher salaries for less work via The Railway Labor Act. That's great for them, but it certainly didn't help the industry in any way. Even more interesting is the potential payoff that everyone seems to ignore. Let's say Skybus does very well and makes even half the money RyanAir pulls in. Wouldn't that enable them to elevate their pilot compensation above what any other airlines can afford? Would you call that hurting the industry? Let's say, with that nifty little 10%, the flight attendants rake in $35,000 per year starting out. They'd only need to sell about $4 per passenger given their current load factor (that appears to be about 1/3 of the plane buying a meal and a drink at listed prices). Would you call that hurting the industry? Seriously, what if they sold $6 per passenger?

By the way, I found a news tidbit with their CEO, and he mentioned stock options (regarding employee ownership). Not stocks. Stock options. I do believe stock options are locked at a strike price based on market value (and right now it's not much, say, $160 million), which makes them better than stocks. So, perhaps this is the missing piece of the compensation puzzle? Time will tell what those will be worth, but if Skybus does do well, these employees will wind up being compensated far more than the industry standard. Would you call that hurting the industry?

Interesting indeed...
 
IFly4UAL
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2000 8:30 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Thu May 31, 2007 8:20 pm

Quoting JayDub (Reply 5):
Yet another reason why SkyBus needs to go away.

Those payscales are setting a precedent that is just plain scary...and why it bothers me that everyone here is on board with the SkyBus idea.

So many here complain about the lack of service, how FA's, how customer service personnel are idiots, and how the golden age of air travel is over...then they fall all over themselves at the thought of $10 fares. When airlines like SkyBus succeed, other airlines follow suit, and they become the reason air travel sucks.

AMEN to that JayDub. I couldn't have said it better myself. Here in the US it seems as if the entire industry has become a race to the bottom. Rather than seeing what MORE we can offer customers, airlines are spending time figuring out what we can take AWAY from customers...and yet we just can't get enough of the low-fare carriers, while at the same time whining about how "airline travel isn't what it used to be." I say the sooner we can get rid of SkyBus the better.
BGR--Vacation Spot for All the Flying Crazies
 
toltommy
Posts: 2519
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:18 am

Quoting Superfreak (Reply 12):
Yawn...so it begins with the salary mud-slinging.

So very true.... yet I suspect the same people who claim that Skybus is hurting the industry have no problem looking for the best price when spending their own money. Nobody overpays for anything these days, including labor. Skybus is copying the Ryanair model, and Ryanair has some of the highest profit margins in the industry. There are quarters when Ryanair turns close to a 20% return. The majors would be ecstatic with 10%! Heck, United came out of Ch11 with a biz plan that projected a 6% return.

Yep, Skybus FA's make $9/flt hour, and 10% commission on sales. But they also get to be home every night (no overnighting), flight benefits, and I believe that if the company eventually goes public, all employees will have stock options. No matter what, it works for the people who are flying for them now.
 
ual777
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 14):

So very true.... yet I suspect the same people who claim that Skybus is hurting the industry have no problem looking for the best price when spending their own money. Nobody overpays for anything these days, including labor. Skybus is copying the Ryanair model, and Ryanair has some of the highest profit margins in the industry. There are quarters when Ryanair turns close to a 20% return. The majors would be ecstatic with 10%! Heck, United came out of Ch11 with a biz plan that projected a 6% return.

Yep, Skybus FA's make $9/flt hour, and 10% commission on sales. But they also get to be home every night (no overnighting), flight benefits, and I believe that if the company eventually goes public, all employees will have stock options. No matter what, it works for the people who are flying for them now.

The difference is that Ryanair pilots are paid very well. There is a pilot shortage in the US for a reason: salaries are TOO LOW!
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
ATLTraveler
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:56 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:56 am

For Coach Class passengers, its not like service is any better on Legacy Carriers. Same low end service and that staff gets paid twice as much as the LCC's. So the only difference is a coke and a snack. If they can make a good cup of coffee, I don't mind paying a few dollars. Someone needs to start low cost International Service where you can buy some nice meals and a cup of Starbucks or how about a nice bar  Smile That would be good for passengers and the Airline.
 
SansVGs
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:21 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 15):

The difference is that Ryanair pilots are paid very well. There is a pilot shortage in the US for a reason: salaries are TOO LOW!

Yep. Pinnacle is paying $1000 referral bonuses for referring pilots who make it through IOE. PSA has dropped their flight time requirements altogether. They will hire a pilot with a still-wet / fresh commercial, multi, inst. ticket.

Why couldn't times have been like this when I was a 19 year old "punkie" selling plasma to buy flight hours? Smile
Winglets on a Falcon are "over-painting" a great work of art.
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5042
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:56 am

Quoting Crogalski (Reply 4):
On APC, they show a pathetic starting salary for FOs at $30,000

Thats pretty high for a first year FO compared to most of the nation.
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:01 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 15):
The difference is that Ryanair pilots are paid very well. There is a pilot shortage in the US for a reason: salaries are TOO LOW!

You have that backwards, the airlines can pay so low because there are people willing to take the jobs. Blame the 19 year old FO fresh out of Comair academy, not the airlines.

If the supply of pilots diminished, then the airlines would have to raise salaries to attract labor. Simple supply and demand economics, nothing more.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
ual777
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 19):

You have that backwards, the airlines can pay so low because there are people willing to take the jobs. Blame the 19 year old FO fresh out of Comair academy, not the airlines.

If the supply of pilots diminished, then the airlines would have to raise salaries to attract labor. Simple supply and demand economics, nothing more.

I am a 21 year old instrument student myself. I ALMOST went to the Regional Airline Academy until I got wise. Commercial Pilot certificate issuance is was down 63% in 2006 compared to 2004. Flight instructors are leaving in droves and there are no replacements because minimums are so low. Most regionals are offering sign-on bonuses now, and are offering bonuses to FOs at other airlines to switch over.

I urge every flight student (or potential flight student) to avoid pilot mills like RAA, Delta Connection Academy, and Jet University. You will save ALOT of money and will receive better training.

Further, fight your case of SJS (Shiny Jet Syndrome) and instruct, banner-tow, fly traffic watch, or drop sky divers for a few months and apply to one of the top tier regionals.

Avoid Mesa, GoJet, Trans-States, and PSA.

The senior pilots will respect you for it, you will get paid more, and you will help force wages up and "improve the profession."

My wish list is: American Eagle, ASA, and Skywest in that order.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
ual777
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting ATLTraveler (Reply 16):
Someone needs to start low cost International Service where you can buy some nice meals and a cup of Starbucks or how about a nice bar Smile That would be good for passengers and the Airline.

UA serves Starbucks.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1415
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting Atomother (Reply 10):
Some may say to major airlines like United, American and Delta but they won't be offering reasonable salaries either if they are competing against skybus types where labor is nearly free.

The problem with this idea is that the higher paying legacies are HEAVILY unionized... and because of that they will never be low cost. As history shows, unionized employees rather run the company into the ground than take a lower paycheck for the long term.

Skybus is probably a great stepping stone for most people who want to fly in the airlines, but the problem that arises is that these "stepping stones" are becoming a dime a dozen while the number of legacy airlines and jobs remain small. I have a feeling that some day soon you'll need 8,000+ hours to be considered by legacies as a new first-officer. This prophecy will especially come true considering that every Tom, Dick and Harry with lapels on his shoulders, "shiny plane syndrome", and a degree from a Florida pilot mill, wants to be a career airline pilot... whatever the cost.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 20):
I urge every flight student (or potential flight student) to avoid pilot mills like RAA, Delta Connection Academy, and Jet University. You will save ALOT of money and will receive better training.

Further, fight your case of SJS (Shiny Jet Syndrome) and instruct, banner-tow, fly traffic watch, or drop sky divers for a few months and apply to one of the top tier regionals.

Avoid Mesa, GoJet, Trans-States, and PSA.

You are one of the smart ones and I applaud you. I was in your place in 1991 when you had to have 4000 hours to get on with a major and no one was hiring, times have changed, and they will again.

Unfortunately SJS is hard to stop and lots of people will still jump to get to be a "Jet piliot"
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting Superfreak (Reply 12):
Let's say, with that nifty little 10%, the flight attendants rake in $35,000 per year starting out. They'd only need to sell about $4 per passenger given their current load factor

A 90% load factor on their A319 is 140 people. If 80% buy a soda, 20% alcohol and 50% buy something like a snack platter, that's a total of about $18 a flight per flight attendant. There's no way you're going to get to $35,000 a year to start out.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 3681
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:13 am

I can't believe nobody on a.net has gotten on with Skybus. Or is there an employee or two, but just being cautious. Spill the beans!!
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:14 am

They sell other iems as well like pillow and blankets.

Their F/A's have been told to expect 9.40 in purchases per passenger (that is the target)
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
travatl
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:20 am

$9/hr? Holy crap - even ValuJet started at $11.76/hr FOURTEEN years ago, and we got doublepay after 80 hours, profit sharing, and stock options.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 22):
The problem with this idea is that the higher paying legacies are HEAVILY unionized... and because of that they will never be low cost. As history shows, unionized employees rather run the company into the ground than take a lower paycheck for the long term.

Southwest Airlines is one of the highest paid, most heavily unioinzed airlines flying. Additionally, amongst the LCCs, AirTran and Spirit also have numerous unions on property.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13808
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 20):
Flight instructors are leaving in droves and there are no replacements because minimums are so low. Most regionals are offering sign-on bonuses now, and are offering bonuses to FOs at other airlines to switch over.

Dude, this is exactly how the free market is supposed to work.

Salaries are too low, so people avoid the profession.

If there is a shortage of pilots due to this, then the airlines will have to raise pay/bonuses/etc. to attract talent.

Once that increase is widespread, talent will return to the industry.

What prevents this from being a truly stable market is the unions, who force higher than reasonable wages on the industry for people who've done nothing more than grow old. Age based pay via unions will always screw up a market, when pay should be based on the value of work performed...

As for F/As, it is not a high skill profession nor does it carry a lot of risk, and thus pay is low. Sorry to disappoint those who believe being an F/A is akin to being a doctor, but it really isn't. It's a service job that doesn't require higher education and has a short training period. It is why F/As can be replaced relatively easily (though obviously, the bigger the airline, the harder it is to replace them all at once).

If SkyBus, who I think is a horrible airline concept, can hire people for $9 an hour plus commissions and be turning people away from their training, it must be that others agree with me. Will the service be as good? Likely not, because the airline is not focused on that to begin with. They are focused on upsales and a captive consumer market.

We'll see if there really is a place for the airline in the market. But there obviously is a place for this pay scale for F/As.

And that's what bothers some people so much, the seniority F/As. They don't want to be exposed for the overpaid employees they are. They want us all to continue to believe the earth is flat. It's easier to sleep at night that way.

PS - that last part was paraphrased from the movie "Phenomenon" which I watched again earlier today. Good movie about (partially) how people are threatened when confronted by their own ignorance...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
DCrawley
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:18 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:58 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 20):
I ALMOST went to the Regional Airline Academy until I got wise.

Probably one of the better choices you have made in your life!  Wink I bailed on them after my private because it was such a scam of an operation. They are/were a bunch of crooks.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 20):

I urge every flight student (or potential flight student) to avoid pilot mills like RAA, Delta Connection Academy, and Jet University. You will save ALOT of money and will receive better training.

Amen.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 28):
If there is a shortage of pilots due to this, then the airlines will have to raise pay/bonuses/etc. to attract talent.

 checkmark 
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
luvfa
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 10:05 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 28):
And that's what bothers some people so much, the seniority F/As. They don't want to be exposed for the overpaid employees they are. They want us all to continue to believe the earth is flat. It's easier to sleep at night that way

Its not limited to FA's other professions use their union/political clout to help their standards of living.

Half the legal advice and filing could be done by Paralegals but they are not. The lawyers and the ABA have seen that this practice is not done so your lawyer can do it for $500 hr. The same with the medical profession/AMA and what nurses and technicians can do. Again it benefits it members financially. Don't get me started on Medical Insurance and the hand in hand relationship they have with the Drug Companies.

The fact is FA's are not doctors we don't claim to be, but until the day planes fly perfectly, passengers never get sick or hurt and everything goes 100% right FA's are necessary. The FAA has certified us just like pilots and mechanics. Granted our job duties and responsibilities are different. But no aircraft moves without us! We also don't fall under wage/hour 40 hour work rules, OSHA Protection. Spend all of our time away from home are roughly paid 1hour for every 3 on duty. Keep in mind I love what I do and wouldn't trade it for anything!
 
GMUAirbusA320
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:52 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:01 pm

Quoting Luvfa (Reply 30):

Its not limited to FA's other professions use their union/political clout to help their standards of living.

Half the legal advice and filing could be done by Paralegals but they are not. The lawyers and the ABA have seen that this practice is not done so your lawyer can do it for $500 hr. The same with the medical profession/AMA and what nurses and technicians can do. Again it benefits it members financially. Don't get me started on Medical Insurance and the hand in hand relationship they have with the Drug Companies.

HOLY CRAP, you guys make me miss the Economics classes at George Mason University. Seriously, people don't get that the "free market" we live in isn't so free. You're DEAD-ON with the Medical Industry and Lawyers. That's a way for people who became wealthy to ban together to prevent the little guy from getting ahead. The labor industry is ALL about that! I wish people would take an Economics 101 course before they start giving opinions on how the world should be. We all want the best and most money, but you can't have that when you have these groups creating problems for the average worker by strikes and holding threats over their heads.

To put this into perspective, IAD has a LOT of airlines, but I chose not to work for UA, NW, and LUV because of their affiliations with unions. And before I get flamed, my Grandpa is a Teamster who told me to never work for a union company. He said there are a lot of great companies to work for that treat you well, and he did it because many years ago, that was the best way to get benefits...he's right. Despite what they say, they don't treat their people well and the unions take the money to lobby politicians while their heads live like KINGS! I have a lot more power by walking out of a job myself, rather than having to discuss the matter with 3 different people. If enough leave or choose to not work there, the company policies change...enough said! Noone is holding a gun to my head telling me where I have to work...well, at least not yet.  Smile

That's my .02 cents!
 
Shenzhen
Posts: 1664
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:11 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:22 pm

Guess we need to start tipping the FA when they show us to our seat  Smile

Cheers
 
ewmahle
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:36 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:06 pm

Quoting GMUAirbusA320 (Reply 31):
I wish people would take an Economics 101 course before they start giving opinions on how the world should be.

I would agree with that. If you have ever taken an Econ course with a decent teacher, the downside and negative impact on labor markets as whole within certain industries is blatently obvious when there is heavy unionization. Unionization was the way to go in the past, as pointed out above, but it is coming back full circle now. Case and point are the US car companies who are paying millions of dollars a day in benifits to thousands of unionized employees who are retired but still on the payroll.

In some cases when you have strong unionization of employees who ask for higher wages you will often see a direct reflection in the product/service price. (Higher worker wages = higher product/service price) However I am not seeing that in the airline industry. We have unionized legacies that want higher wages, have higher facilities costs, higher fuel costs, while selling at the lower price.

We also have the Skybus way, non-unionized low paid workers, with little facilities fees, and limited services selling tickets at lower prices. (Everyone is getting caught ip on $10 when the reality is that the average current ticket price for a one-way from GSO-Columbus in June is roughly $100.) However, with the low wages of Skybus, the minimum wage theory comes into play where the FOs and FAs who are making bottom of the barrel money realize that when they have a bad day they are not making enough money to stick around and that they can make those same wages anywhere else and decide to leave. This in theory creates high turnover which usually results in poor service.

Conclusion: Neither the unionized legacies nor Skybus are in good long-term situations. However, IMHO, they are called legacies for a reason and I do not see them going anywhere.
 
GMUAirbusA320
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:52 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting Ewmahle (Reply 33):

Yep, I did. George Mason University has 2 Nobel Prize Winning Economists and 1 Renowed (Dr. Walter Williams). I was fortunate to take a 100-level course with one of his students, Ninos Malek. People have to realize that economists who look at those issues aren't supposed to be biased whatsoever, as they provide a no-feelings approach to the issue.

I will buy a drink or two, if I flew Skybus, and I'm sure that it'll come with a smile because his/her financial situation depends on it. It's all about incentives my friends... Smile For those of you interested, might I suggest Freakanomics?
 
UnknownUser
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:02 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 20):
I urge every flight student (or potential flight student) to avoid pilot mills like RAA, Delta Connection Academy, and Jet University. You will save ALOT of money and will receive better training.

Haha, you think you get better training out of a Part 61 environment as opposed to a FAA controlled/regulated Part 141 environment? I wasn't doing weight and balance every flight until I started 141 training. I wasn't trained how to shoot an approach properly until being in a 141 environment. You will pay more money, but what you are paying for is the name. Airlines hire from these schools because they are aware of the high requirements held at these schools. Besides, someone who flies 5 times a week as opposed to 2-3 times is going to save money in the long run anyway.
Die Skybus!!! You need to die for the good of the industry!
 
ual777
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting UnknownUser (Reply 35):

Haha, you think you get better training out of a Part 61 environment as opposed to a FAA controlled/regulated Part 141 environment? I wasn't doing weight and balance every flight until I started 141 training. I wasn't trained how to shoot an approach properly until being in a 141 environment. You will pay more money, but what you are paying for is the name. Airlines hire from these schools because they are aware of the high requirements held at these schools. Besides, someone who flies 5 times a week as opposed to 2-3 times is going to save money in the long run anyway.

I never said that. There are pt. 141 schools that don't charge you 70k to get your ratings. The ONLY difference between pt. 61. and pt. 141 is that 141 follows a strict sylibus with stage checks so you can finish with fewer hours.

There ARE some scumbag pt. 61 operations out there as well, but I've talked to 2 CFIs at my school who trained at RAA and they said it was the worst decision they ever made.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
qqflyboy
Posts: 1620
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:47 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting GMUAirbusA320 (Reply 34):
might I suggest Freakanomics?

Great book... loved every page.

Quoting Ewmahle (Reply 33):
We also have the Skybus way, non-unionized low paid workers

With $9/hr it won't stay this way. Look at B6... all roses in the beginning and now there is an effort by the FAs to unionize. When you sign on everything seems great. Then after a while you realize you aren't treated properly and the attitude starts to sour. Then you start to look at unions.

Quoting GMUAirbusA320 (Reply 31):
the unions take the money to lobby politicians while their heads live like KINGS!

AA's flight attendant union, the APFA, is an in-house union, ie, it's independent. The union leadership here are paid their wages as if they were flying the line. They bid every month and are paid based on what line they would have held according to their seniority.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
asuflyer05
Posts: 2058
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:53 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:02 am

Quoting JayDub (Reply 5):
Those payscales are setting a precedent that is just plain scary...

$30k for a first year f/o is about right. CO pays $30 an hour x 76 hours for a "B" reserve is $27,360. Factor in your per diem and it will push you barely above $30k. (Source WillFlyForFood

Quoting Superfreak (Reply 12):
They'd only need to sell about $4 per passenger given their current load factor (that appears to be about 1/3 of the plane buying a meal and a drink at listed prices). Would you call that hurting the industry? Seriously, what if they sold $6 per passenger?

IMHO flight attendants are there to ensure safety and then handle cabin responsiblities. The line blurs when an F/A is forced to decide whether she should sell the drunk in 14A another rum and coke so she can feed her kids or act in the interest of other passengers and cut him off and make less money.

Quoting UnknownUser (Reply 35):
Haha, you think you get better training out of a Part 61 environment as opposed to a FAA controlled/regulated Part 141 environment? I wasn't doing weight and balance every flight until I started 141 training. I wasn't trained how to shoot an approach properly until being in a 141 environment. You will pay more money, but what you are paying for is the name. Airlines hire from these schools because they are aware of the high requirements held at these schools. Besides, someone who flies 5 times a week as opposed to 2-3 times is going to save money in the long run anyway.

I don't think there is a wrong way to get where you want to be in your flying career whether it's the FBO route or a pilot academy, except maybe paying to fly for Gulfstream Int'l. I decided on a "pilot mill," ATP in BFE Mesa, AZ. I felt they have a more structured curriculum for their instructors to teach than an smaller school. I know instructors come and go all the time regardless if you're at an FBO or academy. So I wanted a standard curriculum so the training would be consistent when I change instructors. I could have saved myself $10k by going to an FBO in Mesa. The opporunity cost would have been taking a year longer to get my ratings. I'll make that up on the back end by having one more year making $150k before I retire.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 20):
Further, fight your case of SJS (Shiny Jet Syndrome) and instruct, banner-tow, fly traffic watch, or drop sky divers for a few months and apply to one of the top tier regionals.

I agree with you here. I'm hoping to instruct and shoot for SkyWest, Republic, or Air Whisky.
 
SansVGs
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:21 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:27 am

Quoting Ewmahle (Reply 33):
I would agree with that. If you have ever taken an Econ course with a decent teacher, the downside and negative impact on labor markets as whole within certain industries is blatently obvious when there is heavy unionization.

First it was Monday Morning Airline CEO's here...now it is "Economist Time." A couple of 100 level courses does not an economist make, even with Adam Smith and Karl Marx teaching. Most real economists at places like the World Bank, Financial Times, and "The Economist" magazine are well beyond chatting up "Labor Theory of Value" and how it applies to flight crew salary stagnation for western airlines. Most of these people (real economists) see a need for trade unions on a macro level.

The net, net: Make a list of all union and non-union airlines. You will see that the vast majority union airlines pay more, are safer, and provide better customer service. With regard to the safe part: If you don't understand this, you have never worked in an operational role for an airline.
Winglets on a Falcon are "over-painting" a great work of art.
 
luvfa
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 10:05 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:48 pm

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 38):
IMHO flight attendants are there to ensure safety and then handle cabin responsiblities. The line blurs when an F/A is forced to decide whether she should sell the drunk in 14A another rum and coke so she can feed her kids or act in the interest of other passengers and cut him off and make less money.

You hit the nail right on the head! FA's are responsible for the safety of all paxs. This commision based pay causes one to sell-sell-sell, reguardless of the consequences! Do we need another USAir ABQ incident to see that this policy is a major conflict of interest!
 
Superfreak
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:34 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:53 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 24):
A 90% load factor on their A319 is 140 people. If 80% buy a soda, 20% alcohol and 50% buy something like a snack platter, that's a total of about $18 a flight per flight attendant. There's no way you're going to get to $35,000 a year to start out.

I did the math on that again, and...

Assuming 50 flights per month with 100 passengers per flight: $18 per passenger = $36,000 per year just on commission.

Let's see now, $9.00 per hour for, let's say, 100 hours per month (guessing since utilization is higher): $10,800 per year.

Yes, I forgot to divide the 10% sales by three flight attendants, so $10 per passenger brings in roughly $20,000 per year, plus hourly pay of $10,800. At $5 per passenger, it's over $20,000 per year total; which I understand is a thousand or two higher than most airlines pay starting out. That's still better than what everyone whining about $9 per hour seems to think it is and, surprisingly, is right in line with or better than the current industry bar. So much for that argument?

Quoting GMUAirbusA320 (Reply 34):
It's all about incentives my friends... For those of you interested, might I suggest Freakanomics?

Oh, yes, an excellent book indeed. In fact, this book is probably well ahead of its time. Incentive is the name of the game folks. Plain and simple. Cognitive decision-making by human beings, on all levels, can be defined by nothing more simplistic than the age old query, "What's in it for me?" I would not underestimate this airline. They appear to be much smarter than they're being given credit for.
 
Superfreak
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:34 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:16 pm

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 38):
IMHO flight attendants are there to ensure safety and then handle cabin responsiblities. The line blurs when an F/A is forced to decide whether she should sell the drunk in 14A another rum and coke so she can feed her kids or act in the interest of other passengers and cut him off and make less money.

This is an amusing assumption people are making about safety. I don't disagree that there may be a finer line here. But unless Skybus has an accident, or someone is not given proper medical treatment, or a fire is not contained, or a drunk passenger goes on a rampage, there is no way to measure how safe or unsafe the airline will run just because there is commission-based pay for the flight attendants. Quite frankly, this type of speculation is inexcusable. When there is direct evidence to support these conclusions, then it should be plastered all over the national news. But until then, the airline proved it can operate safely to the FAA; therefore it operates safely. End of story. I happen to know a number of flight attendants, and based on the commitment to safety I've observed in these individuals, I would be quite surprised to meet more than one or two who simply shrug his/her shoulders at safety for another five cents. Are people really that ignorant to think flight attendants (or pilots for that matter) would just place themselves at risk so easily? Sometimes you people remind me of the idiots who fearfully decide not to board a flight because their plane needed maintenance work (all along failing to realize the fact that the crewmembers working on the aircraft are not really interested in a tragic ending either).
 
Logos
Posts: 608
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2000 10:47 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:48 pm

Skybus is taking a page out of the PeopleExpress book by generally hiring outside the industry for everything but pilots. Their target for the $9/hour FA is a retail worker who is used to being paid this way and not the career FA who is accustomed to doing things differently.

In general, I think incentive based pay is a great thing (yes, I'm a fan of Walter Williams & Thomas Sowell and my degree is in Economics). One way SX's incentive based pay breaks down is that the crew will split the commissions evenly for the whole flight. Bad salespeople will therefore be "carried" by their colleagues. I'm guessing that will eventually lead to some resentment among the crew.

The other side of economics is demand. I, for one, don't ever intend to step onto a Skybus aircraft if I can avoid it. 29" pitch and being pitched is something I will pay extra to avoid. I have a feeling that others who actually ended up paying a lot more than $10 for their seat will feel the same way after their first Skybus experience, especially given the number of better LCC alternatives here in the US. I could be wrong, but I think eventually there will be a move to somewhat better product quality at a modestly higher price on the part of the US air consumer and that Skybus will not have a long term future. But if I had a crystal ball, I'd be employing it for more usefull things than forecasting Skybus' future, so who knows.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
zenarcade
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:08 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:14 pm

Quoting Atomother (Reply 10):
Hopefully they are blacklisted by anyone who conducts interviews in the future.

Who is this guy? How can you possibly suggest that pilots who fly for Skybus should be blacklisted by other employers? Accepting low pay does not hurt the industry especially with how the industry is constantly evolving.

I do not fly personally but I have friends that do and they have shown me that pilots will do anything to be up in the sky.
If a plane falls on the tarmac and no one is there, does it make any sound? - Starlionblue
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting Logos (Reply 43):
I could be wrong, but I think eventually there will be a move to somewhat better product quality at a modestly higher price on the part of the US air consumer and that Skybus will not have a long term future. But if I had a crystal ball, I'd be employing it for more useful things than forecasting Skybus' future, so who knows.

SX's basic premise that there is a market for low cost air travel in the US is correct. FR proved that in Europe. However, their approach to implementing the service is full of holes. One is their point-to-point only route structure to CMH. Another is their dependence on secondary income. According to Itsnotfinal above, SX is targeting $9.40 in on board sales, but there is also all the little nickel and diming charges, so I would guess they expect to collect $20 to $30 more than the ticket face value in additional revenues. That may be a formula that works, or it may not. I suspect that it does on paper, but the biggest hole is where are they going to find the personnel to fly all 65 planes they have on order at the prices they are willing to pay?

I suspect you are right and either SX will restructure their offering, or they will fail. What they are offering just does not make sense.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:47 pm

Only 8 of the 65 planes are going to be based in CMH as has been pointed out several times. Their will be several other focus cities for the remaining (initial) 65 plane order.


As Ryaniar and EasyJet have both proven, you can be profitable with add ons above the base airfare. I think the news reports and blogs talking aboutthe fact that food was running out and sales were better than expected has been a good example of this.

I have always said they have a difficult business plan to execute, time will certainly tell, I agree with that.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
gilesdavies
Posts: 2280
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:51 pm

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:00 am

Nine dollars an hour is criminal!!!  eyepopping 

I think you need to speak to your dear president about new labour laws and introducing a minimum wage!

In the UK we have a minimum wage of £5.52 which is about $11 an hour and that sort of pay usually only paid to very manual unskilled jobs.

This kind or wage is scandelous and an insult to the industry, when you consider the work a cabin crew member is expected to do. The reason they are there for is your safety and how to react in that kind of emergency. If I was a cabin crew member for SkyBus I would be the first one off the plane in an emergency!!!

Even airlines like Ryanair and easyJet which SkyBus is supposed to have modelled themselves around is taking costs to a new low! According to Ryanair's website cabin crew can expect to earn £25,000GBP in their first year, and even though UK may be marginally more expensive than the US, East European cabin crew would earn the same money flying for Ryanair where costs are far lower than the US or the UK.

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/about.php?page=JOBS&sec=careers
http://www.easyjet.co.uk/EN/Jobs/Cabin/cabincrew_pay.html
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 46):
As Ryaniar and EasyJet have both proven, you can be profitable with add ons above the base airfare. I think the news reports and blogs talking aboutthe fact that food was running out and sales were better than expected has been a good example of this.

Heck, even EI made 65 million Euros selling stuff to their passengers, and a good thing because they turned in only a E 72 million profit last year. (Check their annual report for 2006).

As for them running out of food, there are two possible reasons. 1) they didn't have enough because they were afraid of not selling it, 2) it was so wonderful everyone bought two sandwiches. We don't know which. I assume that if it was the first reason, then they ordered more so that everyone who wanted one, got to buy it.

As for their hubs, so far we only know about CMH. If the rest of their hubs are so isolated, good luck. If they make Portsmouth a hub that flies to Oakland and such places, then maybe. Alternatively, they could do connections, where a plane flies one from one popular site to another with a stop at CMH.

However, their biggest problem is staffing all those planes, no matter where they fly from. The FAs for example can make a better living flipping burgers and the pilots will move on to better paying jobs once they accumulate a few hours. FR does pay their pilots well, and they give a living wage to their FAs.

With $162 million in the bank, SX will not blow away in the wind in six months. However, I fully expect to see that those running it today are history by then with a turnaround specialist in to sort it out. Maybe they can get Micheal O'Leary.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5448
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Skybus Pay Rates

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 47):
Nine dollars an hour is criminal!!!

Let's make some assumptions.
People will want a Soda/Food/Beer.

We''ll assume that some will pay, and some won't on a flight.

However with everything avaialble let's assume a 5$ sale per person from about a 70% load on a plane.

aroung 500 + $ sold per flight. That would mean for a cabin crew of 3/4 that they just got aroung 12 to 15 dollars extra on that flight. maybe more maybe less. I'd like to know what Skybus's prediction on this is.
Now assume they fly 3 legs a day, so that is around 36 to 45 more per day. or based on an 8 hour day 4.5-5.5 more dolalrs an hour which equates to more of a 13-14 dollar an hour range which is upwards of 25 to 26 K a year.

However think of the night flights and leisure travelers that want beer and food and what not, and those flights might even be more profitable. Especially if the food is good.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.

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