jfk787nyc
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AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Tue May 29, 2007 11:36 pm

Aeroflot Would Rather Have Boeing 787 Dreamliners

Boeing Co. intends to launch first B787 in 2008; its current portfolio includes orders for 584 planes made by 45 companies.


Link Here

http://www.kommersant.com/p-10800/r_529/Boeing_787_tests/
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Tue May 29, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting JFK787NYC (Thread starter):
Aeroflot Would Rather Have Boeing 787 Dreamliners

I don't blame them. I'd rather buy an aircraft that I can have in a couple years rather than a concept that I may or may not have in five years. The Russian government, however, has different plans Smile.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
bringiton
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Tue May 29, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
I'd rather buy an aircraft that I can have in a couple years rather than a concept that I may or may not have in five years.

Not even the Big US carriers can get deliveries in a "COUPLE " of years , for aeroflot , they should be looking at something like 2012-2014 deliveries , which isnt far off from the A350 EIS ( ie. if they got some very early slots for the -900)

Quoting JFK787NYC (Thread starter):
Aeroflot Would Rather Have Boeing 787 Dreamliners



This is rather stupid title for a story , when they placed orders for 20 787's they also intended to purchase 20 350's . I dont recall ever there intentions to go for an all boeing fleet. Moreover the article isnt quoting any airline official . It should be dismissed as totally useless.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 12:07 am

The photo in that article doesn't look like a 787 -- it has large winglets.
 
manni
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 12:15 am

The whole article is a very amateuristic piece, nobody is being quoted and no names are mentioned. Not to mention the english editor who screwed up big time... Here's one of the two sentences that make up the article.... Decide for yourself  Wink

"Dreamliner is able to carry 200 passengers to 300 passengers for 6,500km to 16,000km. It consumes 20 percent less of fuel than the similar aircraft, but its load capacity is 45 percent higher than that of the rivals."
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
EI321
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 12:24 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 3):
The photo in that article doesn't look like a 787 -- it has large winglets.

Its a 787-3.

Theres more reliable articles on wikipedia than this.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
The Russian government, however, has different plans

With so much politics involved they have to make up their mind about who they hate more - EU or the US.
 
chiad
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 4):
"Dreamliner is able to carry 200 passengers to 300 passengers for 6,500km to 16,000km. It consumes 20 percent less of fuel than the similar aircraft, but its load capacity is 45 percent higher than that of the rivals."

This is totally redicules. I could written a better article and posted it on my web site without any references, and then someone would take it as genuine.
I think the whole topic should be deleted.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 2):
Not even the Big US carriers can get deliveries in a "COUPLE " of years

You think Boeing would tell AA, DL, and UA, that they can't have 787s until 2014?

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 6):
With so much politics involved they have to make up their mind about who they hate more - EU or the US.

This is true, and right now it's the US apparently Silly
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Stitch
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 2:16 am

SU's principles have said that they prefer the 787, but they're not the ones making the deal so their opinion doesn't matter.
 
bringiton
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 2:16 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
You think Boeing would tell AA, DL, and UA, that they can't have 787s until 2014?

I never aid that . All i said was that even if AA , DL etc wanted they could not get any meaningful slots in 2009 ( 2 years or couple of years from now) , the sweet spots are reserved for them surely , and they should be around 2011 , 2012 , 2013 timeframe specially with the increase in production post 2011 . Boeing has had a bad expereince holding slots for SU so dont expect them to go out of the way !
 
eatmybologna
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
SU's principles have said that they prefer the 787, but they're not the ones making the deal so their opinion doesn't matter.

That's true. But the real question is if it should matter.
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
 
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Stitch
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 11):
That's true. But the real question is if it should matter.

One would like to think that, but...
 
jwenting
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
This is true, and right now it's the US apparently

No, but the EU is getting less eager to pay above market prices for Russian LNG and oil so the Soviets are starting to feel they may not want to antagonise Berlin and Paris too much or loose a lucrative export market for the only thing anyone outside their empire still wants.
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MaverickM11
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 3:54 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 13):
the EU is getting less eager to pay above market prices for Russian LNG and oil

Yeah but I don't think they're doing anything about it are they?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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glideslope
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
I don't blame them. I'd rather buy an aircraft that I can have in a couple years rather than a concept that I may or may not have in five years. The Russian government, however, has different plans .

You bet they do, and it's more than "Flying Airbus" IMO.  redflag 
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
hjulicher
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 13):
Soviets

I sort of resent that you are calling us Soviets, as you are alluding to a past era which doesn't exist anymore. SU may want 787's but Russia is playing a game, which may ultimately hurt SU, but is done for a larger purpose. With Europe's proximity to Europe, it makes sense for Russia to be on friendlier terms than with the US.
LH 442
 
Leskova
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 13):
so the Soviets

You might want to move into the 21st century, where the rest of us have been living for a couple of years now... it hasn't been "the Soviets" for quite a while now...  Yeah sure

As for the article... it's so badly written, it isn't even worth starting wild rumors about...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
JAL
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 5:07 am

If they wanted the 787 why didn't they order it?
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dallasnewark
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 5:07 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 13):
No, but the EU is getting less eager to pay above market prices for Russian LNG and oil so the Soviets are starting to feel they may not want to antagonise Berlin and Paris too much or loose a lucrative export market for the only thing anyone outside their empire still wants.

Oil and Natural Gas is not the only export raw materials they possess. You forgot nickel, iron, uranium, gold, diamonds, etc. I can go on, but I think you got the point.

Anyways, EU needs them a lot more that SU needs Airbuses from EU. With the change of regimes in France and Germany and somewhat closer ties to US that came with that change, the Russians probably feel that the're no need to appease EU, hence the Airbus order can be changed again. They play a lot of dirty politics and neither Boeing nor Airbus would know which way the've gone until they see the money from SU
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dallasnewark
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting JAL (Reply 18):
If they wanted the 787 why didn't they order it?

I know this post will get deleted quickly, but the reason they are still unsure as to what they want to order is because Putin flip flops more often than an avid employee of the Red Light District in Amsterdam
B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
 
DeltaAVL
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 2):

Not even the Big US carriers can get deliveries in a "COUPLE " of years , for aeroflot , they should be looking at something like 2012-2014 deliveries , which isnt far off from the A350 EIS ( ie. if they got some very early slots for the -900)

I think that if a few big airlines placed a few big 787 orders, Boeing would almost certainly increase production. Boeing's never going to flat out say "no" to a customer either. If Aeroflot wants 787s sometime before 2014 and offer a big order, I bet Boeing would increase production.

But as always, this is just my two cents.  Wink
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Stitch
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 7

Wed May 30, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting JAL (Reply 18):
If they wanted the 787 why didn't they order it?

SU does not make the final decision, the Russian government does. And the Russian government was able to get more concessions from the EU then the US, so Airbus was given the order (at least in part) as a form of quid pro quo. Of course, this is how business is often transacted around the world, so the only reason folks get bent out of shape about it is because their "favorite" either wasn't chosen (so it smacks of "dirty pool") or it was chosen (so they're defensive because it wasn't chosen solely on suitability or desirability).
 
CJAContinental
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 20):
because Putin flip flops

I agree that Aeroflot doesn't have as much say as they probably should, and I agree the government has to much say, though I'm not so sure its PUTIN's input over the cause of Aeroflots indecisive attitude. Putin seemed to further accelerate russia from the dark ages, and now its economy its growing (he is probably one of the most sympathetic russians towards America in recent times). As a result, more corrupt billionaires from the KGB, and informal unseen business (russian mafia: as ridiculous as it sounds its true to some extent) have more influence over the government, the bad side of capitalist russia that was not experienced as much before. Don't forget Boeing moscow ironically had a lot to do with the LCF.

A lot of the billionaires are in control of the oil, and this could have something to do with the A350 interest, appeasing the EU, as has been addressed, though I can't coment on that, I don't know enough about it.

To those who are saying that the 787 won't be bought because its american, aeroflot currently has the 737, 767, and 777 in its fleet and is currently looking to acquire MD-11's for its cargo; the fact that Aeroflot was interested in the 787 prior to now, and the fact that Aeroflot and the 787 are mentioned together, means that interest had to be shown by someone, at some point.

I think it is unlikely that aeroflot never wanted the 787, though I do think a decision against it would be due to a random decision, or pressure from the higher ups, not necesaraly Putin's influence.

To those that are confused by my post and may think that I was under the influence of something I shouldn't have been while writing this, I wasn't. The point I am trying to get accross is that yes, the government has too much say over aeroflot, however, I do not think that PUTIN has much influence over these matters, as is the same with other affairs concerning the russian government, and major economic decisions.
Work Hard/Fly Right.
 
aminobwana
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 6:41 am

.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
don't blame them. I'd rather buy an aircraft that I can have in a couple years rather than a concept that I may or may not have in five years. The Russian government, however, has different plans

Other than the figures, I agree. It is about 5 years (if Aeroflot pressures) for B787 and 8-9 years for A350 (considering the barrel construction change, about 2 years after EIS for a customer not in place for the earliest slots)

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 6):
With so much politics involved they have to make up their mind about who they hate more - EU or the US.

Some month ago, it was the US. At this moment, between other between they are being rejected by EADS, mainly by the Germans, there is a draw

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 13):
No, but the EU is getting less eager to pay above market prices for Russian LNG and oil so the Soviets are starting to feel they may not want to antagonise Berlin and Paris too much or loose a lucrative export market for the only thing anyone outside their empire still wants.

Nobody ask the EU if they are eager or not, the same as SAUDI Arabia, IRAN or Libya. Where would the EU buy the Gas instead ?? Russia does not care who buys their oil, if not the EU any other will.

Quoting JAL (Reply 18):
If they wanted the 787 why didn't they order it?

They factually did (LOI with seriosity money)

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 21):
think that if a few big airlines placed a few big 787 orders, Boeing would almost certainly increase production. Boeing's never going to flat out say "no" to a customer either. If Aeroflot wants 787s sometime before 2014 and offer a big order, I bet Boeing would increase production.

There is no doubt about that, even if Boeing will be cautious not to overshoot as they did in the 90s. What Boeing for tactical reasons may say openly, is irrelevant.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
SU does not make the final decision, the Russian government does. And the Russian government was able to get more concessions from the EU then the US, so Airbus was given the order (at least in part) as a form of quid pro quo.

Assuming that world politics depends from an order of 20 or 22 aircrafts (which is clearly not so), do not forget that at least at certain non-economic domains Russia is still a world power, and the US are more so then the EU.
But as said, I do not think that the picture is so big. Putin offered to switch the B787 for the A350 to get a place
in EADS, needed for regeneration of his military and civil industry (to later compete), and also, because he wanted to show the US that he is angry. Now he is angry at the EU also, if he sticks with the A350 Aeroflot will have to compete several years with SIBIR and other flying B787. using much more expensive to operate aircrafts. maintenance and repair would be better served if Aeroflot, SIBIR, AZER and other fly the same aircraft, etc. An as nobody can say Putin is not a clever guy, he will not bluff himself into a corner.
The EU will receive a nice candy, i.e. the A320, unless he gets really angry !!
Finally, again, Airbus can offer "attractive" price and conditions, but at this point, given the risk to depend on a A350 compliance in time and specs, possibly this would not help much, but who knows !!
aminobwana
 
CJAContinental
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
that he is angry

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, though why is he angry?
Work Hard/Fly Right.
 
Danny
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 17):
You might want to move into the 21st century, where the rest of us have been living for a couple of years now... it hasn't been "the Soviets" for quite a while now...

Putin is 100% Soviet imo.
 
EI321
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 26):
Quoting Leskova (Reply 17):
You might want to move into the 21st century, where the rest of us have been living for a couple of years now... it hasn't been "the Soviets" for quite a while now...

Putin is 100% Soviet imo.

Its blatently obvious that 'Vlad prefered old Russia. But Old russia will never return and Moscow is stuck between a sort of socialism and bent capatilism hybrid which is not working well at all.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 7:46 am

How come S7 gets to order the 787 when SU can't?

Hunter
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turpentyine
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 8:25 am

I think because SU is partially owned by the government and S7 is more or less private.
 
Confuscius
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 9:25 am

so the Soviets

The correct term is bolsheviks.  Wink



If they wanted the 787 why didn't they order it?

I believe a private firm placed a refundable deposit on behalf of Aeroflot.
Ain't I a stinker?
 
jfk787nyc
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 11:53 am

All airlines in Russia are owned in some way by the government.

The only airline that has no government stake in Russia is TransAero.

Aeroflot is the face of Russia this is the reason why it was always the biggest. They government tries to promote it.

S7 is a airline the goverment does not care about at all. They tried to privatize their percentage with no takers.

They even offered the 25.5% stake to Aeroflot and they declined to take it.
 
bringiton
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 12:02 pm

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 21):
I think that if a few big airlines placed a few big 787 orders, Boeing would almost certainly increase production.

Boeing has come out and publically said ( like 2 days ago) that they cannot increase production before 2011 at the earliest . There is a shortage of suppliers in the industry that is seeing a huge demand of all sorts of aircraft. So no not even boeing can increase production in 2009 even if someone was to order 100 aircraft .

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 21):
Boeing's never going to flat out say "no" to a customer either

Carson said something to the extent of " We would say no and take the higher ground rather then committ to something that will cut our supplies short " I think this was late last year

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 21):
If Aeroflot wants 787s sometime before 2014 and offer a big order, I bet Boeing would increase production.

Boeing has allready decided to increase production post 2011 so what or what aeroflot does or doesnt do does not matter . Anyways boeing would never increase production just for 20 SU jets that would be rediculous , the reason they are increasing production is because they see the market absorb the increase and they can sell the 787 at a healthy profit margin , even more so during the years the A350 isnt available.
 
vanguard737
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 1:25 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 26):
Putin is 100% Soviet imo.

 checkmark 
320 717 722 732 733 735 737 738 744 752 753 763 772 DC9 DC10 MD80 B1900 S340 E120 ERJ CRJ CR7
 
iL62M
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 6:18 pm

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 23):
To those who are saying that the 787 won't be bought because its american, aeroflot currently has the 737, 767, and 777 in its fleet

First of all SU does not have 777 in their fleet for at least 2 years for now as i recall.

SU has never stated they dont want 787. As i recall (once again) there was a statement made by SU, that they want 20+20 787 and 350. And still they are thinking on the agenda of 787s.

SU is going to buy 350XWB. Not other versions of 350.

I cant say that S7 has already purchased 787s. SU made statement something like that and look what's now.
Personally somehow there is big doubt in my head that S7 will buy 787s without any problems.

49% of S7's shares are still being controlled by state. And there is no big difference between SU and S7 in terms of corruption.
Both companies are (open) JSC. OJSC - is a form of company in Russia. And the state of buisness in S7 is MUCH worser than SU. Mr. Filev (or Fylev) is a kind of buisness man who only really cares for money. Not the airline buisness at all. Why anyone would buy a company they know nothing and cant obtain any information about?
As far as i know (and have access to) SU is much more (way too much in comparison) westernised company than S7.

And once again. You all start the politics thing. Ok. Then why dont you stop blaming only one country only because of your attitude and one-sided opinion? And please dont tell me about all that stuff like state-controlled TV and etc. We live in 21st century and i have access to all the media i want and need. Any questions you have you can send via personal message. I'll try to answer them.
 
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glideslope
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 6:32 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 27):
Its blatently obvious that 'Vlad prefered old Russia. But Old russia will never return and Moscow is stuck between a sort of socialism and bent capatilism hybrid which is not working well at all.

Capatilism Hybrid? If anything I'd say Al Capone USA circa the 1930's. IMO.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
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Stitch
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 9:40 pm

Quoting IL62M (Reply 34):
49% of S7's shares are still being controlled by state.

That S7 has now bought the 787, perhaps it is the "consolation prize" to Boeing by the Russian government for shifting the SU order over to the A350?
 
iL62M
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 11:11 pm

Glideslope, dont you ever stop this?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 36):
That S7 has now bought the 787, perhaps it is the "consolation prize" to Boeing by the Russian government for shifting the SU order over to the A350?

No that is 99.999999999.....% NOT.
 
ZBA320
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RE: AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787

Wed May 30, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting Chiad (Reply 7):
I think the whole topic should be deleted.

I don't think it should. I find it entertaining reading  Big grin  Wink
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