jimyvr
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UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 4:23 am

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investi...?in_article_id=420784&in_page_id=3

The report by Evening Standards indicates British Airways may snub Airbus for long-haul order and go for 747-8I.

Quote:
However, latest orders from BA suggest the carrier may yet stay with Boeing as its longhaul aircraft supplier of choice.

Industry observers say BA appears to be opting for a twotier fleet: Boeing for long haul and Airbus for short haul.

Its acquisition earlier this month of eight 150-seater Airbus A319s will be used to replace similar-sized Boeing 737s, with BA saying that is the first step toward a single shorthaul fleet.

When BA ordered four Boeing 777s in February, commercial director Robert Boyle said its long-haul pilots and crew were used to handling Boeings.


[Edited 2007-05-29 21:24:22]
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
keesje
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 4:30 am

I must say I´m unimpressed by the article, its anonumous sources and very indirect evidence..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
columba
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
I must say I´m unimpressed by the article, its anonumous sources and very indirect evidence..

 checkmark 
To take the additional order for A32x and 777s as an indication is hardly evidence.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
ba319-131
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
I must say I´m unimpressed by the article, its anonumous sources and very indirect evidence..

- Agreed, must be a slow news day!

I actually fully expect BA to stick with Boeing products for it's longhaul ops.

I'd love to see BA order A350's but that is unlikely, spotting will be pretty dull if everyone flys B787's!!!
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
Lurch
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 4:50 am

Most Spotters reckon BA will go for a Large order of 777-300ER machines in the future as some of the 1st Batch of 747-400s are getting old.

G-BNLA-BNLH whlie the eraly 777s are not Spring chickens either.

But getting the 787 what for? The 747-8 would do BA nicely if they get some but the engines are a bit of a sticking point only having one type and it not being Rolls Royce.
 
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Stitch
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 4:55 am

I'm just not sure where the 777-300ER would fit in BA's fleet, unless they decide to eschew the 787-10ER and go (787-8,) 787-9, 773ER, 748I, A388.
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
I must say I´m unimpressed by the article, its anonumous sources and very indirect evidence..

Well, that's how you sell news - rumor and innuendo. That said, I believe their speculation is correct, BA will choose a 787 / 748i combo for the longhaul fleet.
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
nickrose87
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 5:01 am

i think BA will eventually orders some A380s to be used on routes to US and AUS
 
Leskova
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 6):
That said, I believe their speculation is correct, BA will choose a 787 / 748i combo for the longhaul fleet.

... which would be about as surprising as Tuesday turning out to be the day after Monday...  Wink

While I'd prefer them to go a different way, I fully expect BA to order B787/B748 as well...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Lan1981
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
When BA ordered four Boeing 777s in February, commercial director Robert Boyle said its long-haul pilots and crew were used to handling Boeings

I'm not sure whether being used to 'handling' Boeings has anything to do with aircraft deliveries....it didn't stop BA ordering brand-new Airbus a/c which BA crew subsequently had to train for, and later operate (without any problems)...
 
EI321
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 5:29 am

The article would no more or less relevant if you swapped Airbus and Boeing around in the title.

They are effectivly saying:

Yes, but No, but Maybe. They may snub Airbus and then again they may not, we dont really know

, ie an article for the sake of an article.
 
norcal
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 6:18 am

Journalism based on sensationalism and rumors?!?!? No way!!!!  Wink

That aside I think this one is Boeing's to lose (not a guaranteed victory like AA or DL, but they should have the upper hand)
 
keesje
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 6:39 am

The airline is also looking at buying Airbus's A380 superjumbo, but won't make a final decision until September, as it weighs up the plane against Boeing's new 747-8 jumbo.

"We will need to be convinced that the aircraft (A380) is right for us in the long term, over the next 25 to 30 years," Walsh said. "Clearly price will be a very important factor."

The A380, which will seat 555 people in a standard layout, could be an attractive option for routes such as London-Hong Kong, where BA needs to move a large number of passengers in a narrow time window, Walsh said.


http://business.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=792862007 .

Wash says "Clearly price will be a very important factor." Looking at the rather big differences between 748i and A380 this doesn´t sound very credible to me..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Stitch
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
Wash says "Clearly price will be a very important factor." Looking at the rather big differences between 748i and A380 this doesn´t sound very credible to me..

Well the A380 does list for about $30 million more, on average, then a 748I. With similar discounting (percentage-wise) likely, I expect both RFPs will come in relatively close to each other with the 747 probably having the absolute edge. But then price will not be the only factor weighed.
 
keesje
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
But then price will not be the only factor weighed.

That what I mean. Network requirements (demand, competition) tends to be the most important factor "Looking over the next 25 to 30 years" 15% more capasity on the 747-8i over the 744 might be challenging (current growth 5% per year).
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
brendows
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 7:11 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 14):
That what I mean. Network requirements (demand, competition) tends to be the most important factor "Looking over the next 25 to 30 years" 15% more capasity on the 747-8i over the 744 might be challenging (current growth 5% per year).

I've mentioned it before, you always assume that the growth of 5% over the next 25 years will be on existing routes, which may very well not be the case, and the trend we've seen the last ten-twenty years, with more routes, have proven that. In other words, a 747-8i may fit very well even 20 years from now on most routes.
 
keesje
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting Brendows (Reply 15):
In other words, a 747-8i may fit very well even 20 years from now on most routes.

That may be the case. Most airlines so far didn´t believe it. If you are are based at LHR and fly almost exclusively to other (slot restricted) hubs 15% might not be ideal for the next 25 yrs. Like Walsh says "The A380 .... could be an attractive option for routes such as London-Hong Kong, where BA needs to move a large number of passengers in a narrow time window"
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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RayChuang
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 am

Folks,

I think you all are forgetting one salient fact: British Airways is not hard-pressed for landing slots at London Heathrow, since they own a large fraction of the landing slots at that airport anyway. As such, BA does not need the largest plane flying in and out of LHR, especially when you consider how many flights BA has to JFK, for starters. This makes it more likely that BA will order a combination of 777-300ER and 747-8I to replace their older 747-400's.
 
M27
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 10:26 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 10):
The article would no more or less relevant if you swapped Airbus and Boeing around in the title.

They are effectivly saying:

Yes, but No, but Maybe. They may snub Airbus and then again they may not, we dont really know

, ie an article for the sake of an article.

So you think they may order some 737's?
 
FLALEFTY
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 10:50 am

Say what you will, but BA is one airline that really needs the A380 to remain competitive. I would be shocked if they chose the 748i over the A380 because the big Bus offers more room and options for 1st and Business Class seating, which is very important when competing against Qantas, Virgin Atlantic or Singapore.
 
ba97
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 10:56 am

Is the new terminal at Heathrow and the terminals at LAX and JFK that BA use set up for the 380? If BA is focused on business or premium travel, frequency is what matters. At least for me, the airline with the most flights to my prime destinations gets my business travel.
there is economy class, business class, first class...then Concorde..pure class
 
airbazar
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 11:34 am

Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 19):
I would be shocked if they chose the 748i over the A380 because the big Bus offers more room and options for 1st and Business Class seating, which is very important when competing against Qantas, Virgin Atlantic or Singapore.

But BA does not have much direct competion from any of those airlines. The only route where they come close to competing is the Kangaroo route but there BA has a joint service agreement with QF. So BA passengers can still fly on the A380 if they feel like it. In fact I suspect BA may be dropping their flights to AUS sooner or later anyway. VS, despite all it's publicity, is not much of a competiton and even they're not sure if they'll ever take any A380's. And SQ really only offers competition on 1 route, LHR-SIN, where BA/QF have share the route. Bottom line is, BA doesn't really need the A380 which is not to say that they won't order it. If it fits their needs they will but I would be very surprised. BA is very big on offering frequencies.
 
Ken777
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 12:13 pm

Wasn't the 748i the plane that BA wanted Boeing to build? Even after the 380 came out? Stands to reason that they will have a hard time not buying some of them, and maybe some 777s as well.

The 380 may have a place at BA in smaller numbers, but does BA really need to rush an order? This is not like the 787 where slots have been filling up rather fast. BA can take their time, look at performance in actual operations and also look at what Airbus is going to do with new engines, etc. in the future.

As for the 380-748i price competition, Airbus at some time has to start making some good margins on the 380 - they can't continue with launch pricing. Boeing, on the other hand, can still justify launch pricing and probably gave BA some very attractive numbers even before LH made their purchase. I think that Boeing is in a better position on the cost side.

Overall it looks to me like a Boeing order for all buy 10-12 380s somewhere down the line.
 
Gemuser
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 3:09 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 17):
think you all are forgetting one salient fact: British Airways is not hard-pressed for landing slots at London Heathrow, since they own a large fraction of the landing slots at that airport anyway.

Yes they are! They have a bit over a third of the slots at LHR, but it is their headquarters and they can't fly all the routes they want to from there because of lack of slots! Belive me it would simplify BA operations and reduce their costs if they could fly all their routes from LHR only instead of LHR & LGW.

So while conserving slots may not be BAs highest priority it is definately a factor and the A380 may save them enough slots to justify another aircraft type, then again it may not!

Gemuser
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Leskova
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 3:35 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 17):
British Airways is not hard-pressed for landing slots at London Heathrow, since they own a large fraction of the landing slots at that airport anyway.

They own them, that's true - but they're also using them! If they had dozens of unused slots, they'd not be hard-pressed for them... but the fact that there's not much, if any, room for expansion left at LHR (for BA as well as for anyone else), pretty much makes BA about as hard-pressed, if not even more, as the other airlines are.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 21):
But BA does not have much direct competion from any of those airlines.

BA and VS not being in direct competition?  Wow! ... that's rather surprising...

And BA and SQ compete on just about anything that's in Asia or Australia/New Zealand, which happens to be quite a lot as well...

Not sure where you got the idea that BA doesn't have much direct competition from these airlines, but I'd say that they're (ok... QF excluded) pretty much some of BA's main competitors.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
EI321
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 6:07 pm

Quoting M27 (Reply 18):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 10):
The article would no more or less relevant if you swapped Airbus and Boeing around in the title.

They are effectivly saying:

Yes, but No, but Maybe. They may snub Airbus and then again they may not, we dont really know

, ie an article for the sake of an article.

So you think they may order some 737's?

Why would they?
 
brendows
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 6:34 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 16):
Most airlines so far didn´t believe it.

Most? Then why haven't more airlines ordered larger jets for the last ten years....?
 
Boeing74741R
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 7:10 pm

When I see an order for Boeing long-haul a/c for BA to replace the current fleet I'll believe it. Sounds like a journalist interpreting what has been said as gospel. As for which way the order will swing is anyone's guess right now, but personally I can see some sort of order for BOTH Airbus and Boeing from BA.

Also anyone who thinks that VS will never take the A380 needs to remember that this will only happen if they cancel the order. Just because its a deferral doesn't mean they'll never take it, jeeeze!
 
Joni
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 7:16 pm

Quoting Brendows (Reply 15):

I've mentioned it before, you always assume that the growth of 5% over the next 25 years will be on existing routes, which may very well not be the case, and the trend we've seen the last ten-twenty years, with more routes, have proven that. In other words, a 747-8i may fit very well even 20 years from now on most routes.

Here's Airbus' take (very neutral, of course...) on this issue:

http://www.hamburg-aviation-conferen...ent2006/Session3_Andrew_Gordon.pdf

Interesting is Slide 12, according to which in the Europe-Asia market they expect the volume to double, but the number of routes to grow by only a third.
 
AlanUK
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 7:16 pm

Let's not forget that the Evening Standard is also the newspaper who reported that the Airbus 380-100 (!!) was an amazing aircraft capable of flying LHR-LAX non-stop!!! (wow, never!)

This article isn't worth the paper it's printed on, or the bandwith in cyberspace it occupies. BA would never allow itself to say that they will snub Airbus, as even if they do not intend to buy Airbus, they want Boeing to feel the heat of competition to get the best price possible.

Regards,
Alan.
 
brendows
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 7:27 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 28):
Here's Airbus' take (very neutral, of course...) on this issue:

True, wouldn't it have been a bit weird if Airbus went out publicly and said that their biggest bet ever wouldn't have a large enough market in the future?  Wink
 
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par13del
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 7:31 pm

Interesting to read all the opinions which predict that air travel will continue to increase over the next 10-15 years, thus requiring more lift by airlines, with Europe now pushing environmental issues and targeting the air travel business, I get the feeling that this effort will be the "monkey in the works" of increasing air travel. I don't think that the regulations that will continue to be placed on the book will somehow favour A versus B a/c.
 
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scbriml
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting Par13del (Reply 31):
I get the feeling that this effort will be the "monkey in the works" of increasing air travel.

It will have very little impact for people flying on business. If I have to fly to do some work, then my company will pay (even if there's a "Green Tax" added to the cost of the ticket).

Where it will have more of an impact, I feel, is on the leisure side of the business. There has been some ridiculous talk in the UK of giving people a "holiday flying allowance" each year. If you take more than your allowance, you'll pay extra tax. Goodness knows what that would cost to manage and administer. banghead 

I can see a flat tax of say 20% on all air fares out of Europe. As to how much impact that would have to reduce the number of people flying is difficult to say. Personally, it would not stop me flying at all.
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by188b
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 10:17 pm

i think with the recent fuel surcharge price fixing debacle and with the prospect of BA facing massive fines in the US, BA who in the past have always had a preference for Boeing for the longhaul fleet, will order Boeing 748/772LR/773/787 with a small order of A380 going to Airbus.
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DAYflyer
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 10:25 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
must say I´m unimpressed by the article, its anonumous sources and very indirect evidence..

You wouldn't say that if the article stated the orders were for A-380's and 350XWB's.

I do think the 777 order is indicitive of a major Boeing order.
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jfk777
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Wed May 30, 2007 11:35 pm

The A380 is huge but it doesn't have anything like the nose section for First Class as the 747 does or the upper deck on for Business Class. The upper edck of the A380 will have hundreds of passengers with many being in coach class, not exclusive at all.
 
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glideslope
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Thu May 31, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
I must say I´m unimpressed by the article, its anonumous sources and very indirect evidence..

Of course you would. How can you deny this? The BA 320 deal sealed the Boeing Widebody end of it. You shoud be happy today with the world stopping 80 frame MOU from QA.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
Leskova
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RE: UK Press: BA May Snub Airbus For Boeing Long-haul

Thu May 31, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 35):
The A380 is huge but it doesn't have anything like the nose section for First Class as the 747 does or the upper deck on for Business Class. The upper edck of the A380 will have hundreds of passengers with many being in coach class, not exclusive at all.

So?

First of all, "many being in coach class" is something that's completely up to the airline - and I've seen several seatmaps indicating that the upper deck will be divided into F and C class, with no Y+ or Y at all up there.

Second, even if there are Y-class passengers up there, that still makes the situation no "worse" than it is on an A330/A340 or B767/B777/B787... are you implying that the construction of those planes as single-deck planes excludes any form of exclusivity?

And, lastly, somewhere around 99% of F and C passengers will most likely either not notice, or not care.

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 36):
The BA 320 deal sealed the Boeing Widebody end of it.

That's a very interesting and compelling logic... not...
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