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longhauler
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Acars "out" Times

Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:59 am

I was recently involved in a discussion at a Union meeting, and the subject of ACARS "out" times arose, and no one could come up with a definite answer.

At my airline, the "out" time of the aircraft is sent to Operations via the ACARS, and it is determined by having both the parking brake released, and all doors closed. I assumed this was the case at all airlines, but the possibility was raised that the parameters the ACARS uses can be set by the airline.

Is this true?

Namely are there any other airlines around that use different parameters for establishing the "out" time? I seem to recall someone mentioning here that at his airline, the beacon being ON, set the out time.

I am curious to hear what other airlines use.

Cheers.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
HPAEAA
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:12 am

I think US East requires a rotation of the fwd nose gear for the acars system to register the out time..... I know at AA, MQ and US West, it was simply the pax doors closed and the parking brake released.
Why do I fly???
 
gift4tbone
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:26 am

From what i recall, it varies by a/c.

i can only speak for US east, a/c

E170, when door is shut.
E190, parking break released
737, push back(nose wheel rolling)
319/320, pushback (nose wheel...)
757, doors closed, and p-brake released
CRJs, active taxi

Hope this helps...

-Tony@PVD
Top 3 airports: PVD 23.9%(138 flights), PHL 14.7%(85 flights), PHX 10.2%(59 flights)
 
S5FA170
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:33 am

For Republic/Shuttle America on the Embraer 170/175 - the 1L Vent Flap must be closed and the parking brake has to be released.
Prepare doors for departure and cross-check.
 
n710ps
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:19 pm

Out is door closed wheel movement equal to ten feet kicks ACARS in on PSA birds and as far as I know the same for mainliners I think. that give you your out times. We routinely get the ontime by rolling ten than set brakes and wait.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
LAXintl
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:34 pm

ACARS message prompting is highly configurable by the operator.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:01 am

Midwest is one complete rotation of the tires which comes out to about 5 feet.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
zvezda
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting N710PS (Reply 4):
Out is door closed wheel movement equal to ten feet kicks ACARS in on PSA birds and as far as I know the same for mainliners I think. that give you your out times. We routinely get the ontime by rolling ten than set brakes and wait.

You do understand that's fraud, right?
 
JayDub
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:01 am

Quoting N710PS (Reply 4):
We routinely get the ontime by rolling ten than set brakes and wait.

Hahahah, we used to do that all the time at the old gig. If we were waiting for paperwork, we'd roll 'til we got an ACARS "out" and hand the paperwork out the cockpit windows. Kinda tricky on a 737.  Smile

Zvezda, the only real fraud is the information the "experts" have given the airline execs telling them >30 is a legitimate turn time for a full 737-700.
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
zvezda
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting JayDub (Reply 8):
Zvezda, the only real fraud is the information the "experts" have given the airline execs telling them >30 is a legitimate turn time for a full 737-700.

No, consumers rely on the on-time departure statistics. Cheating them is defrauding your passengers. In some places, they'd saw off a hand for that.
 
ThePinnacleKid
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 9):
No, consumers rely on the on-time departure statistics. Cheating them is defrauding your passengers. In some places, they'd saw off a hand for that.

Wow.. little over dramatic aren't we??? and furthermore.. officially the ontime statistics are NOT from the out times.. they're from Arrival +14 in the US... so.....

Flight is scheduled to arrive at 10:00 AM
Flight actually arrives at 10:14 AM - Flight is officially ON TIME by DOT statistics
if Flight actually arrives at 10:15 AM then the flight is now late...

On the flip side.. the all important thing we like the out times for is so we get paid!!!! We're (crew) working after all.. might as well get "on the clock"
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
JayDub
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 9):
No, consumers rely on the on-time departure statistics. Cheating them is defrauding your passengers.

Dude, we're talking minutes here. This happens in one form or another everyday on every ACARS-equipped aircraft...yet you, the BD Gold, LH Senator, SQ QPP4, UA MillionMiler frequent flyer that you are...never noticed until we said something about it here on A.net. Perhaps, then, it's not really that huge of an issue to the average passenger?

As ThePinnacleKid stated above, USDoT On-Time stats are based on A14. The airlines judge station performance by D0 (departure within zero minutes of scheduled time). When you're going to come up short on turn time, doing a short push for ACARS activation, then completing paperwork saves the station alot of grief from corporate on the ops conference call the following day...

A short roll is no different than airlines who have configured their ACARS "out" times as "doors closed/brakes released", and sitting in the gate for 5 minutes waiting for pushback with the parking brakes released and an "out" time registered.

[Edited 2007-06-02 21:37:34]
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting JayDub (Reply 11):
Perhaps, then, it's not really that huge of an issue to the average passenger?

I could care less about it quite honestly. Fraud....give me a break.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
zvezda
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 10):
officially the ontime statistics are NOT from the out times.. they're from Arrival +14 in the US... so.....

Mea culpa. I withdraw my comments.  blush 
 
asuflyer05
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:16 am

ACARS? What's that? You don't call in your times?

Signed,

Mesa Airlines

Quoting LongHauler (Thread starter):
Namely are there any other airlines around that use different parameters for establishing the "out" time? I seem to recall someone mentioning here that at his airline, the beacon being ON, set the out time.

I want to say I heard a US West crew explain it had something to do with engine oil pressure in the #1 engine.
 
nkops
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:36 am

We are :

A319- doors closed
A321- full rotation of tire (nose)

Apparently, it is different for different airlines..
:evil:
 
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727stretch
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:24 am

When I worked at UA the pilots always said it was when the parking brake was released. Occasionally you'd have a pilot who'd want to start their time clock early and release the brakes while the jetbridge was still attached and rampers were still loading bags. It's quite a shock to be in the pit loading bags and feel the airplane roll a bit like that. Occasionally we'd have flights closed up so early with all pax and bags on, we'd push 'em back :15E or so, but ACARS would not register due to it being so early..LOL.

Apparently with DL, the OUT time is registered when the pilot flicks the rotating beacon on....This is what a buddy of mine who worked for DL says (and seems highly unlikely but appears to be true by verifying DL's OUT times with their Deltamatic system)...interesting. For anyone who works at airports, you can check this out - if you see a DL airplane sitting at the gate with jetbridge still up and bags still being loaded, but the rotating beacon on - go to delta.com and check the flight # if you know it. 9 times out of 10 it will show an out time.
flightdiary.net/727stretch
 
n710ps
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 7):

Far from fraud, I make McDonalds money as it is. If ATC can't get their act together or the million other reasons I am getting my moolah. It is common pratice to push ten with the door closed to get the out time. You would be amazed at what some of the regionals that fly types without an ACARS can get away with when they call for times. It is in no way fraud because we have passengers on board and the bins are closed. When your waiting for the OF11E and you have one minute to go it is pretty normal pratice.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
hiflyer
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:04 am

Quoting 727Stretch (Reply 16):
at UA the pilots always said it was when the parking brake was released

yup.

Does Southwest have acars yet??? grin
 
737tanker
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:05 pm

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 18):
Does Southwest have acars yet??? grin

SWA does have ACARs. At SWA the out time is when all doors are closed (to include the cargo doors) and the parking brake has been released. The in time is when the parking brake has been set and at least door has been opened.

[Edited 2007-06-03 05:07:45]
 
LawnDart
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:27 pm

Quoting 727Stretch (Reply 16):
Apparently with DL, the OUT time is registered when the pilot flicks the rotating beacon on....

DL records out time through ACARS when the rotating beacon is on and the door is closed.
 
AA787823
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:39 pm

Dont forget the Captain can always override ACARS and give you a different out time. If I new I had a delay I would always send a young attractive female with a short skirt to dispatch the airplane.....10 mins late...oops on time...
F.U.R.P.....Families Under Reduced Pay
 
EIPremier
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:31 pm

Anyone know how AS does its "out" times? I've noticed at SEA, even on days with good weather they will sometimes record 25 or 30 minute "taxi out" times. Yet any time I've flown out of SEA it seems like taxi out was less than 15 min.
 
LHRBlueSkies
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:37 pm

Obviously everyone uses ACARS differently, and for different reasons. Some for punctuality figures for movement messages, some for internal auditing, some for contacting crews - it's a great tool, easily manipulated.

As far as punctuality tables go, here many airlines work on departure times for 'wow-ing' the punters as well as arrival statistics - they are all bogus anyway, as the ACARS times are fiddled, times altered, and so on. Everyone lies!
flying is the safest form of transport - until humans get involved!
 
STJ
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:28 pm

At NW (and it's regionals) it is out/off (out = door/brake and off = rotation) and on/in (on = touchdown and in = brake/door) but as stated above it is the A14 (in time) that the DOT uses for on-time and that off course cannot be fudged if the plane is not even on the ground yet it is late. So if it is fudged (and yes we probably have all done or seen it done) on the out time, if the crew cannot make up the time in flight and the flight is late arriving then it is late.
 
n710ps
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:42 pm

Quoting EIPremier (Reply 22):

No such thing as a "taxi out" time. There is an out time and off time an on time and an in time. Normally there is padding alloted to block for taxi delays such as at airports like PHL, DCA, LGA, BOS, ATL, or any other high conjestion ones.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
movingtin
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:40 am

To be more correct, for those airlines that look at wheel rotation, it is main wheel rotation not nose wheel. Only the mains have antiskid transducers to measure wheel rotation.
 
EIPremier
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting N710PS (Reply 25):
No such thing as a "taxi out" time.

I meant the difference between the "departure time" and the wheels up time, which would be the out time and the off time. Obviously the plane is not necessarily "taxiing" the whole time. One time at ORD on an unnamed airline, we sat at the gate loading luggage for 10 minutes after we had actually "departed" according to the airline flifo I checked later on. I have also seen planes just sitting at the gate after they are officially "out."

[Edited 2007-06-03 23:54:54]
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:36 am

How about CO's IAH operation. At least on the narrowbodies pushing from C, the will close up and push on time. Then hold at the end of ramp and finishing loading last minute bags prior to engine start.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:54 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 28):
How about CO's IAH operation. At least on the narrowbodies pushing from C, the will close up and push on time. Then hold at the end of ramp and finishing loading last minute bags prior to engine start.

Well you probably already know this, but the last minute bag while waiting to start a motor once in a while makes a happy customer rather than drive off the ramp with the guy chasing behind in the tug and never catches up!!  Smile

Or Terminal E at IAH, they push, drag, start, sit and get in line.......now that is a well designed ramp with lots of room to move around, yeah right.

Bet ACARS is already showing the flight long time away from the gate. Big grin
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:11 am

Thanks for all of your answers.

True to form, this is the best place to hear it from the "Horse's Mouth".
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
ThePinnacleKid
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:48 am

IAHFLYR..... just a random comment... but you guys are awesome! it's always a good feeling at the end of a four day on the last leg to finally get back to hearing H-town on the freq.... today in Richmond, VA the controller was a freakin' jerk... we called him up just to ask if we had a revised dpt time and he came out guns firing spoutin' off our clearance.. which we didn't ask for.. and when he was done and capt. told him we weren't ready for the clearance just to get the dpt time from him for Newark area.. he actually told us "do you want your clearance or not".. man... I swear... I MISS YOU GUYS... I can't wait for tomorrow when we finally get back there....

On a side note.. you better believe all of us have our ACARS long long long tripped... long before we ever push for that matter.. granted I only operate on the B/hardstands/D/Intl. ramp... no E or C for us....
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
slider
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RE: Acars "out" Times

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 28):
How about CO's IAH operation. At least on the narrowbodies pushing from C, the will close up and push on time. Then hold at the end of ramp and finishing loading last minute bags prior to engine start.

Bin door openings are also something that is measured and discussed on daily operational conference calls...it gets a great deal of attention.

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