UtilianPilot07
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AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:33 pm

Hello Everyone,

I was looking through pictures of American Airlines and ran into some of the DC-10 and MD-11. Do you have any Idea why American got rid of them?

Thanks
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Longhornmaniac
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:43 pm

Quoting UtilianPilot07 (Thread starter):
I was looking through pictures of American Airlines and ran into some of the DC-10 and MD-11. Do you have any Idea why American got rid of them?

The DC-10s were getting really old, and really uneconomical to operate, especially with other carriers competing with newer, more fuel efficient planes, and newer avionics.

Not entirely sure what the story is with the MD-11s. I know many of them, if not all, were sold to FedEx. My guess was, with the newer planes like the 777 coming in, which were just overall better planes, they weren't needed.

Somebody else will have more details than I, if they haven't already posted them.

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LTU932
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:14 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 1):
Not entirely sure what the story is with the MD-11s.

I believe the issue with the AA MD-11s was that they didn't fulfill performance promisses, so AA got rid of them. In the case of the DC-10, I believe they actually stayed with AA even when the MD-11 was already gone but then eventually left when they became too expensive to operate.
 
HPAEAA
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:31 pm

IIRC, wasn't the dispatch reliablility of the MD11's extremely low? I thought I remebered that Fedex reengined them when they got them.... I dunno.. I could be wrong...
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:35 pm

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 3):
I thought I remebered that Fedex reengined them when they got them.... I dunno.. I could be wrong...

Sounds odd, given the costs of re-engining. FX operated GE powered MD-11s at first, before acquiring Pratt powered models, and AA also used the CF6-80 on their MD-11, so it doesn't make sense that those MD-11s were re-engined, unless you mean that they got all three engines changed at the time prior to delivery to FX.
 
mop357
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:24 pm

The DC 10 and MD 11 burned too much fuel while cruizing at Mach .88, and the T7 was so much more econmic with the latest technology at the time.
I think the DC10 crashed cause irreprable damage to its rupation, and the MD 11 also gave a lot of mechanic problems.
Finally, United is a good competitor for AA. United was the launch coustomer for the T7. American would not let their competitor fly the new planes by themself without competing.
 
KELPkid
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:38 pm

Well, AA made some bizarro moves with widebodies in the late 1980's/early 1990's, like putting DC-10's on flights that built cycles quickly, like ELP-DFW and SAT-DFW. I always wondered about these flights, as the DC-10 was engineered as a long-haul aircraft, and these short flights would have probably built up cycles much quicker than if they were flown on long-haul segments.
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deltaflyertoo
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:31 pm

As previously mentioned, the MD-11 didn't live up to performance promises. One specifially that I remember was its so called range from DFW to NRT, that route became a problem with fuel stops and such. They also wanted the MD-11 to operate from SJC to NRT and there was something that didn't work on that route either. HOWEVER I do remember when the MD-11 first joined the AA fleet. THere was a tone of hoopla around it and a lot of excitement and press.
 
trintocan
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:07 pm

Insofar as AA's utilization of the DC-10s is concerned, one should remember that the airline's first DC10s were of the early -10 variant, which were expressly designed for short-to-medium haul routes with heavy traffic. As such, the use of those birds on the intra-Texas routes does make some sense. The airline later used the long-haul -30 variant and together both types served the airline until the early part of this century. The decline of air travel after 11 September 2001 was the main reason for their retirement, along with the planes' advancing ages. AA decided to simplify their fleet by removing their F100s, DC-10s... and MD11s.

The disappointment of AA with the MD11's performance was one of the major issues facing McDonnell Douglas back in the early 1990s, AA even demanded compensation for keeping the planes. While McD did rectify the problems somewhat and developed a more capable -ER version of the trijet, the greater efficiency of the 777 on just 2 engines spelt the end of the road for the MD11 at AA and indeed other carriers - the freight market has proved perfect for the MD11 though.

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karan69
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:57 pm

Quoting Trintocan (Reply 8):
The decline of air travel after 11 September 2001 was the main reason for their retirement, along with the planes' advancing ages. AA decided to simplify their fleet by removing their F100s, DC-10s... and MD11s.

When were the last of the DC-10s and MD-11s retired from AA fleet from pax service??

Karan
 
citationjet
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:33 pm

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 9):
When were the last of the DC-10s and MD-11s retired from AA fleet from pax service??

MD-11 was about November 2001.
DC-10 was about November 2000.


AA press release from August 20, 2001:

AMERICAN AIRLINES TO RETIRE ADDITIONAL AIRCRAFT

FORT WORTH, Texas – American Airlines today announced that it would accelerate the reti rement of five additional Boeing 727 aircraft. The aircraft will be grounded during the fourth quarter of 2001 and the first quarter of 2002, rather than in 2003, as originally planned. In addition, American will retire its remaining four MD-11 aircraft by Nov. 1, ahead of its previous plan to retire this fleet near year end.

These actions are the most recent in a series of steps taken by American to match its fleet and capacity plans to the weaker economic climate. American announced in June that it would advance the retirement of 22 aircraft, including TWA’s entire fleet of 19 DC-9s, two Boeing 727s and one Fokker 100. In July, American arranged not to take delivery of five used MD-80s that were scheduled to join the fleet this year as part of the TWA asset acquisition. And just earlier this month, American announced that it would ground five Boeing 727s, originally scheduled to leave the fleet in 2003, by the end of 2001.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:16 pm

The last DC-10 flight was 11/21/2000 on HNL-DFW. The DC-10's served a long life and were retired as scheduled from AA. At their peak they had a large fleet of -10's and -30's. AA started to retire DC-10's in the mid 90's, starting with the oldest -10's. The -30's stayed on the longest. The DC-10 was AA's primary Trans-Atlantic aircraft until the arrival of the 767's, later the MD-11's, and 777's. At one point, with their growing Trans-Atlantic routes, and obtaining and expanding MIA, they were so short on widebodies, that they configured the A300's to fly Trans-Atlantic. In the twilight of their career, there were limited to flying a few trans-cons, and then finally for the last year or so they were strictly flown to/from Hawaii. Simply put, as said they were retired because they were getting old, uneconomical, and AA has grown its 777 fleet to a sufficient size that they could backfill the Hawaii DC-10 routes with 763's. They had enough widebodies between its 762, 763, 777, A300, and MD-11 aircraft.

The MD-11's, on the other hand, did not meet expectations. They were retired due to a number of factors - airline downturn post 9/11, redundant to 777 fleet, initial performance problems that let everyone with a bad taste in their mouth, AA have too much complexity in their fleet, and FedEx gobbling up MD-11's on the second hand market. The last MD-11 route was October 14/15?, 2001 on GRU-DFW.

The DC-10's were in AA's fleet for over 28 years, the MD-11's, lasted less than 12. Interesting they were retired within a year of each other.
 
Lexy
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:23 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 1):
My guess was, with the newer planes like the 777 coming in

That is the reason the MD-11 was taken out of the fleet. The 777 proved to be a better aircraft all the way around.
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elmothehobo
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting Deltaflyertoo (Reply 7):
They also wanted the MD-11 to operate from SJC to NRT and there was something that didn't work on that route either.

The runway at SJC was too short for the MD-11/DC-10 to take off fully loaded, the aircraft had to stop in Oakland on the way to pick up more fuel.
 
levg79
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 13):
The runway at SJC was too short for the MD-11/DC-10 to take off fully loaded

How much longer are LGA runways compared to SJC? I remember reading that DC-10 was specifically designed to operate out of LGA. I doubt that SJC runways are much shorter, if at all.

Leo.
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rjpieces
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting Trintocan (Reply 8):
the freight market has proved perfect for the MD11 though.

Why is that?
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levg79
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:50 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 15):
Quoting Trintocan (Reply 8):
the freight market has proved perfect for the MD11 though.

Why is that?

Because it can haul more cargo than other widebodies and the range is sufficient, much bigger than A300.

Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
brucek
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 16):

Not more cargo than a B744 though? I think that the poster wondered why the MD-11 had been such a cargo hauler success when the B744 might carry more. Perhaps the MD-11's are cheaper to purchase by the cargo carriers, offsetting the smaller load on each flight compared to the 744?

Bruce.
 
N501US
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:01 am

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 14):
How much longer are LGA runways compared to SJC? I remember reading that DC-10 was specifically designed to operate out of LGA. I doubt that SJC runways are much shorter, if at all.

This goes back to the differnt series of DC-10s. To paraphrase from above, The -10 was designed for short-medium routes (e.g. LGA-ORD) while -30 was for intercontinental routes.

As for the MD-11, IIRC the AA pilots referred to them as SCUDs because they were never quite sure where they were going to land!

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luv2fly
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:02 am

Also remember that the DC10's and the 727's were three person cockpit crews, so another expense to operate.
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
Well, AA made some bizarro moves with widebodies in the late 1980's/early 1990's, like putting DC-10's on flights that built cycles quickly, like ELP-DFW and SAT-DFW. I always wondered about these flights, as the DC-10 was engineered as a long-haul aircraft, and these short flights would have probably built up cycles much quicker than if they were flown on long-haul segments.

Before deregulation,AA used to use DC-10's on LGA-ROC! Now the flight is donw with Dash 8's!
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FlagshipAZ
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:15 am

American operated 66 different DC-10s during their service life, altho not all at the same time. About half were bought by FedEx after AA retired them. Then about half of the FedEx-bought birds were converted into MD-10s. The rest were dismantled for spare parts. One of the ex-AA DC-10 is now that water-tanker that some outfit converted.
All 19 MD-11s that AA bought & operated were sold to FedEx as well. All were fitted GE engines, and FedEx retained them that way. You can't change engines on the MD-11 from GE to PW or vice-versa. The wing & pylons are not interchangable for most aircraft. The first 777 assembled is the only exception, AFAIK.
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 14):
I remember reading that DC-10 was specifically designed to operate out of LGA. I doubt that SJC runways are much shorter, if at all.

Yes, but the DC-10 was originally designed for high capacity domestic short to medium haul flights, American launched it with United for that purpose. it was only two or three years later that Mc Donnell Douglas came out with the DC-10-30 Intercontinental. The MD-11 was designed as a successor to the DC-10-30, not the DC-10-10, so it was already expected to fulfill long haul missions. The MD-11 had a payload problem when taking off out of SJC because it wasn't able to take off with all the fuel required to fly to NRT. My father used to fly a lot from SJC to NRT, I remember he used to tell me he had to stop in OAK or SFO for a fuel stop before continuing to NRT. That was in the mid 90's when American didn't have 777's.

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lijnden
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:40 am

I thought that the main reason why AA retired the DC-10, MD-11 and Fokker 100 had to do with that both McDonnell Douglas and Fokker stopped being around, causing a vacuum in parts and factory assistance with mx issues?

Another reason might have been the demand of MD-11 planes in the airline cargo world. With basically no MD-11's in storage and with a fast growing cargo demand of the late 80's and early 90's, most airliners received top-$ for their passengers MD-11's. Some airliners converted the MD-11's for own cargo needs.

(Think of airliners that once flew passengers with MD-11's: Delta, JAL, Thai, Swiss[air], Garuda, Alitalia, Lufthansa, EVA, Korean, China Airlines, Mandarin, MAS, LTU, Martinair and others ).
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elmothehobo
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:42 am

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 14):
How much longer are LGA runways compared to SJC? I remember reading that DC-10 was specifically designed to operate out of LGA. I doubt that SJC runways are much shorter, if at all.

Because DC-10s flying from LGA carry a fraction of the fuel that a DC-10 flying SJC-NRT carries.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 15):
Why is that?

They are relatively cheap, they were plentiful (IIRC there are a handful in storage right now), a high MTOW and pretty long legged.

The MD-11 could well still be in production today as a Freighter had Boeing not killed it so quickly. Lufthansa was looking to buy more new builds but Boeing would have none.
 
northstardc4m
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:55 am

One additional point on the MD-11 as a freighter:

A MCDD sales insert for the MD-11F gives specs for the MD-11F vs the 747-200F and then has this nice little summation:
"The MD-11 can carry the same weight in cargo as a 747, with ~30% more range, ~30% less fuel burn and ~30% less crew... and with ~3% lower noise levels it can be flown into ~33% more of the worlds airport time slots."

Obviously MCDD was pushing a 3 number with the above, but the point i think is clear.
However FedEx is mostly to blame, the kept the resale price of the MD-11 very high in their drive to aquire more, same with the DC-10 (and before that they did the same to the 727, A310), just like the USAF drove the 707 out of the airline business by buying up so many.
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Viscount724
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 21):
The wing & pylons are not interchangable for most aircraft. The first 777 assembled is the only exception, AFAIK.

Some 747s have been re-engined from P&W to GE. Here's one:

P&W:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerhard Plomitzer
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



GE:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jordi Steeno



This aircraft was written off after a runway overrun incident at DUS in January 2005.

Back to the original topic of this thread, photos of the first DC-10 built below, the one that made the first flight August 29, 1970. It was only the 14th DC-10 delivered to AA as Douglas kept it for testing for a couple of years. I think it was scrapped in 2002.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bob Garrard
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Abbott


[Edited 2007-06-02 19:59:06]
 
flydreamliner
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:57 am

MD-11 didn't perform as promised. Both DL and AA had issues getting it to make it on their asian routes and the fuel stops were really hurting them. On flights to Europe and South America it burned more fuel and had frequent technical issues, so when 777-200ER became available, they jumped on it to replace their failed MD-11 fleets. Depending on wind, DL's PDX-NRT would have to fuel stop, bear in mind this route is now serviced by NW with and A330-200. AA has said since that when they had to choose between 747-800 and MD-11 in the late 80s/early 90s, they made the wrong call.

Quoting Mop357 (Reply 5):
The DC 10 and MD 11 burned too much fuel while cruizing at Mach .88, and the T7 was so much more econmic with the latest technology at the time

I don't believe any of those aircraft cruise at M .88, though I may be mistaken?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 15):
Quoting Trintocan (Reply 8):
the freight market has proved perfect for the MD11 though.

Why is that?

MD-11 can haul incredible cargo density. If you'll notice, it is grossly overpowered. Its engine deliver a combined 185,000 lb. thrust in an aircraft smaller than a 777-200. It has no problem lifting heavy cargo, has a nice wide fuselage, and is in essence, ideal in that it carries a high density of cargo. It fits nicely between 747 and smaller cargo aircraft, and for carriers who carry high density cargo, it's lifting power was really important.
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citationjet
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 11):
At their peak they had a large fleet of -10's and -30's. AA started to retire DC-10's in the mid 90's, starting with the oldest -10's. The -30's stayed on the longest.

AA's MD-11 and DC-10 fleet:
http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/fleets/aa.html

McDONNELL DOUGLAS DC-10

N101AA 10 46500/1 101 N10DC 12/72 01/95 WFU MARANA, AZ
N102AA 10 46502/3 102 06/72 09/93
N103AA 10 46503/5 103 07/71 10/93
N104AA 10 46504/7 104 09/71 09/93
N105AA 10 46505/9 105 11/71 11/93
N106AA 10 46506/12 106 12/71 10/93
N107AA 10 46507/13 107 12/71 11/93
N108AA 10 46508/20 108 01/72 10/93
N109AA 10 46509/21 109 01/72 09/93
N110AA 10 46510/22 110 02/72 05/25/79 WO Chicago O'Hare
N111AA 10 46511/23 111 03/72 05/93
N112AA 10 46512/24 112 03/72 08/93
N113AA 10 46513/30 113 04/72 07/93
N114AA 10 46514/31 114 05/72 08/93
N115AA 10 46515/37 115 05/72 *
N116AA 10 46516/48 116 07/72 * LT HA 02/94-*
N117AA 10 46517/49 117 07/72 09/96
N118AA 10 46518/51 118 07/72 04/94
N119AA 10 46519/52 119 08/72 01/94
N120AA 10 46520/54 120 08/72 /94
N121AA 10 46521/55 121 09/72 04/94
N122AA 10 46522/56 122 09/72 * LT HA
N123AA 10 46523/58 123 10/72 01/95 WFU MARANA, AZ
N124AA 10 46524/65 124 11/72 01/95
N125AA 10 46525/72 125 12/72 01/95 WFU MARANA, AZ
N126AA 10 46947/247 126 02/78 *
N127AA 10 46948/249 127 03/78 *
N128AA 10 46984/250 128 05/78 *
N129AA 10 46996/270 129 02/79 *
N130AA 10 46989/271 130 03/79 *
N131AA 10 46994/273 131 04/79 *
N132AA 10 47827/294 132 11/79 *
N133AA 10 47828/319 133 05/80 *
N134AA 10 47829/321 134 05/80 *
N135AA 10 47830/323 135 06/80 *
N145AA 10 46700/14 145 N60NA 04/84 *
N146AA 10 46701/16 146 N61NA 08/84 03/94
N147AA 10 46702/18 147 N62NA 07/84 *
N148AA 10 46703/19 148 N63NA 07/84 * LT HA 02/94-*
N151AA 10 46706/38 151 N64NA 04/84 *
N152AA 10 46707/61 152 N65NA 08/84 08/93
N153AA 10 46708/62 153 N66NA 08/84 08/93
N154AA 10 46709/68 154 N67NA 03/84 11/95
N160AA 10 46710/70 160 N68NA 02/84 *
N161AA 10 46942/162 161 N69NA 04/84 *
N162AA 10 46943/163 162 N70NA 09/84 09/96
N166AA 10 46908/95 166 N901WA 05/85 * WFU AMA
N167AA 10 46930/112 167 N904WA 03/87 *
N168AA 10 46938/153 168 N905WA 06/87 *
N171AA 10 46906/50 171 N916JW 07/87 03/94
N908WA 10 46977/251 784 06/88 01/89
N909WA 10 46983/252 785 06/88 09/88
N912WA 10 46645/283 786 06/88 03/89
N136AA 30 47846/69 136 ZK-NZL 10/81 05/21/88 WO Dallas, TX
N137AA 30 47847/116 137 ZK-NZM 07/82 *
N138AA 30 46911/189 138 ZK-NZQ 09/82 11/95
N139AA 30 46711/105 139 N80NA 06/84 04/14/93 WO Dallas, TX
N140AA 30 46712/106 140 N81NA 06/84 * LT TRANSAERO 06/96-*
N141AA 30 46713/165 141 N82NA 07/84 * LT TRANSAERO 06/96-*
N142AA 30 46714/167 142 N83NA 07/84 * LT TRANSAERO 06/96-*
N143AA 30 46555/91 143 YV-133C 06/84 *
N144AA 30 47848/136 144 N821L 02/85 *
N163AA 30 46914/195 163 PH-DTK 04/85 *
N164AA 30 46950/242 164 CC-CJT 06/86 *


MD-11 fleet:

McDONNELL DOUGLAS MD-11

N1750B P 48419/450 1AA 05/91 *
N1751A P 48420/451 1AB 01/91 /
N1752K P 48421/452 1AC 04/91 *
N1753 P 48487/469 1AD 08/91 *
N1754 P 48489/492 1AE 03/92 *
N1755 P 48490/499 1AF 05/92 *
N1756 P 48491/503 1AG 06/92 *
N1757A P 48505/462 1AH 08/91 * LT USAFRICA 04/94-*
N1758B P 48527/504 1AJ 07/92 * LT USAFRICA 05/94-*
N1759 P 48528 NTU; DEL to FM as MD-11F
N1759 P 48481/482 1AK 04/92 *
N1760A P 48550/526 1AL 02/93 *
N1761R P 48551/527 1AM 01/93 *
N1762B P 48552/530 1AN 02/93 *
N1763 P 48553/531 1AP 03/93 *
N1764B P 48554/535 1AR 03/93 *
N1765B P 48596/537 1AS 03/93 *
N1766A P 48597/540 1AT 05/93 *
N1767A P 48598/550 1AU 09/93 *
N1768D P 48436/483 1AL 04/92 *
N P 48611/ 1AW / ON ORDER
N P 48612/ 1AX / ON ORDER
N P 48621/ 1AY / ON ORDER
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
Viscount724
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 28):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 11):
At their peak they had a large fleet of -10's and -30's. AA started to retire DC-10's in the mid 90's, starting with the oldest -10's. The -30's stayed on the longest.

AA's MD-11 and DC-10 fleet:
http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/fl....html

As you probably know, that site hasn't been updated for years, as indicated by it still showing some AA MD-11s as "on order". It is useful, however, for historic fleet data but not for any changes in the past few years.
 
phatfarmlines
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 24):
Because DC-10s flying from LGA carry a fraction of the fuel that a DC-10 flying SJC-NRT carries.

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In addition, this was the DC-10-10 variant that flew to LGA. The DC-10-30 & MD-11 has a longer wingspan, which I am not certain if it would have been able to operate into LGA.
 
LMP737
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 23):
I thought that the main reason why AA retired the DC-10, MD-11 and Fokker 100 had to do with that both McDonnell Douglas and Fokker stopped being around, causing a vacuum in parts and factory assistance with mx issues?

Even though MD is no longer around product support is still provided by Boeing.

[Edited 2007-06-02 22:09:29]
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PExDCA
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
Well, AA made some bizarro moves with widebodies in the late 1980's/early 1990's, like putting DC-10's on flights that built cycles quickly, like ELP-DFW and SAT-DFW. I always wondered about these flights, as the DC-10 was engineered as a long-haul aircraft, and these short flights would have probably built up cycles much quicker than if they were flown on long-haul segments.

My understanding from a friend who worked for AA in those days was the reason for the ELP-DFW and SAT-DFW widebody flying was that AA had negotiated exceptionally low fueling costs at those airports and it was a big cost savings to fill them up in those cities, have them then fly a short hop to DFW and send them on their longhaul routes from there filled with cheap fuel. Could be an urban myth, but it's the best explanation I have ever heard for that question.

PEx
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AA787823
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:33 am

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 13):
The runway at SJC was too short for the MD-11/DC-10 to take off fully loaded, the aircraft had to stop in Oakland on the way to pick up more fuel.

Only 2x did it ever do that. Both times were with the -10. After that the flight was weight restricted and it flew with many empty seats so they would not have to make that stop. The MD 11 and the 777 always made it non stop. I took this trip 5x and never made a stop.
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ekskycargo370
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:35 am

Why don't AA start operating a cargo division,MD11 and DC10 freighters perhaps?? Pure madness not too!
 
elmothehobo
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 33):
Only 2x did it ever do that. Both times were with the -10. After that the flight was weight restricted and it flew with many empty seats so they would not have to make that stop. The MD 11 and the 777 always made it non stop. I took this trip 5x and never made a stop.

At the outset, before the runway was lengthened this was done. When the runway was extended the route went nonstop. There was an article about this in Air Transport Biz, which is now offline.
 
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 23):
I thought that the main reason why AA retired the DC-10, MD-11 and Fokker 100 had to do with that both McDonnell Douglas and Fokker stopped being around, causing a vacuum in parts and factory assistance with mx issues?

For the F100's this was an issue, but not for the DC-10 & MD-11.

Boeing continued production of the MD-11 until they ran out the order backlog, almost all of the duration of AA's MD-11 program, new aircraft were still rolling off the line, in addition to Boeing continuing product support to the MD-11 still through today.

Same story for the DC-10 where they still maintained product support, in addition to a vast number of aircraft available in the desert to canabalize. NW obtained 24 second-hand DC-10-30's throughout the 90's to expand their Trans-Atlantic ops, and they handpicked the best of the best,, and many of th newest DC-10-30 aircraft on the second hand market.

The F-100 was another matter, when Fokker went under, so did their product support. Some other companies to pop up over in Europe to produce some of the parts/tooling. However, it was much more expensive, and AA even had to do some of this work in-house. Also, they were a quirky aircraft to work on, plus required a whole different type of non-standard tools that obviously weren't compatable to Boeing/McD/Airbus aircraft. In addition to the operating costs/capacity/performance issues.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:33 am

There may have been some DC10-10's that operated out of LGA, but with LGA's runways being only 7,000 feet, range was an issue and I'm sure the DC10-10 could not make a transcon.

In the 1980's, CO briefly studied utilizing the DC10-30 for LGA-LAX service. From, what I understand as a former employee in the General Office, it was found that the thrust required for a short field takeoff that (I believe required the heavy aircraft to avoid the pier sections of the runway) would create an unsafe condition if #1 or #3 failed as torque would pull the aircraft too much to the left or right.
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elmothehobo
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting EKSkycargo370 (Reply 34):
Why don't AA start operating a cargo division,MD11 and DC10 freighters perhaps?? Pure madness not too!

They had one back in the day, it closed up shop in either the early 1980s or late 1970s (exact date anyone?).

They didn't see the use in it then, and they don't see the use in it now. Even without a dedicated cargo fleet, American is one of the biggest air freight haulers in the country, by virtue of the size of its network.
 
Viscount724
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:50 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 37):
There may have been some DC10-10's that operated out of LGA, but with LGA's runways being only 7,000 feet, range was an issue and I'm sure the DC10-10 could not make a transcon.

DC-10-10s were quite common at LGA, especialy in the 1970s and early '80s. AA, UA and National all operated them there. If memory correct, AA and UA mainly used them LGA-ORD, probably at peak departure times. When AA/UA's early 767-200s arrived I think they replaced most DC-10s at LGA. National used the DC-10 to Florida, but that was probably about the extent of their range off LGA runways. A few photos (note the last one is one of NA's few DC-10-30s):


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Photo © Howard Chaloner
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Photo © George W. Hamlin



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Photo © Howard Chaloner



TWA also used the L1011 at LGA:


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Photo © Gerard Helmer
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Photo © Fergal Goodman


[Edited 2007-06-03 01:57:17]
 
ha763
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 15):
Quoting Trintocan (Reply 8):
the freight market has proved perfect for the MD11 though.

Why is that?

I've read the MD-11 will weight out very close to when it volumes out, which is good for a freighter.
 
jfk777
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:49 am

Eastern also used L-1011' and A300 at LGA. AA's MD-11 were a common sight at the usual 777 destinations, LHR, NRT, EZE and GRU. From Miami to South America the only route the MD-11's were always used on was Argentina. AA had a love hate relationship with them but they needed more range for Japan and a bigger plane then the 763ER, so until the 777 came along the MD-11 was it, hey SWISSAIR liked them so they couldn't have been all bad.
 
AA787823
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:01 am

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 38):
They had one back in the day, it closed up shop in either the early 1980s or late 1970s (exact date anyone?).

AA never operated an all freighter version of the DC-10 or the MD11. They had 747F and 707F
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TrijetsRMissed
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RE: AA's MD-11's And DC 10's

Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:03 pm

AA had wanted to replace the DC-10 for years following AA 191. In the '80s, the 763ERs and A306Rs were considered as replacements but instead used as expansion. The DC-10's were paid for and as years went buy the airline released it was an aircraft worth keeping.

From the mid '90s on the DC-10-10 series really serves no purpose in the US with how the market has changed from capacity to frequency. The handful of second hand -30s just created an oddball in the fleet. Whereas NW had the creme of the crop of used -30s, AA's large fleet were fairly old by the late 80s. The fuel efficiency only became an issue once gas prices skyrocketed.

As for the MD-11, most of the AA MD-11's were delivered prior to all of the PIPs had been completed. As a result, the AA MD-11's were inferior in many aspects. There are stories of the MD-11 not meeting range expectations with AA, but consider the SR "Advanced Heavy" which flew ZUR-LAX smoothly for a dozen years or the full PIP KL MD-11A1, doing AMS-YVR, and AMS-SFO until recently. Even DL waited for the higher performance airframes, receiving some late deliveries in '96 and '98.

Within a month of delivery AA gave MDC hell, demanding hundreds of mods and creating a bad vibe for the MD-11 which was heard throughout the industry. After some time, MDC had enough of it, feeling AA received plenty with the nicely discounted MD-82's and were now taking advantage of the manufacturer. As a result, AA went strictly Boeing and the 772ER was intended to replace the tri-jet asap.
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