justapassenger
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Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:05 pm

http://www.latribune.fr/info/L-allia...IDB1A2888DA14E342BC12572F1002804C0

My French is not very good, but La Tribune apparently reports that Skyteam has signed an agreement with the BAA to consolidate their operations in Terminal 4 at Heathrow by April of 2008 so that they can create a hub there serving their American partners. NW would then serve Heathrow from DTW and MSP, CO from EWR and IAH and DL from ATL and JFK.

I guess this means that KL and AF will provide the slots for CO, NW and DL. Any one know the details of this arrangement?
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:16 pm

Quoting Justapassenger (Thread starter):

I guess this means that KL and AF will provide the slots for CO, NW and DL. Any one know the details of this arrangement?

SO will this be mainly O&D traffic then? SkyTeam has mo appreciable EU network from LHR. Just AMS, Italy & CDG really, al of which are well covered by non-stops.

I guess we could expect to see all of the other SkyTeam partners move to T4, and also to see the likes of Maylisan, Kenya, etc move to T4 as well.

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:21 pm

There move to T4 has been out in ther public domain for some time. What will be interesting to see how many slots the Amercan carriers get and the frequencies they will offer on those routes mentioned above.
 
Joost
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 1):
SO will this be mainly O&D traffic then?

Of course it will be mostly O&D, but in times of heavy demand and short notice, they will have more freedom to book passengers on different flights; for example when EWR-CDG is fully booked and there is capacity available on EWR-LHR-CDG, that gives them an option to book passengers on that flight. Not as a primary choice, but when you need a flight on a 24-hour notice in the summer season, it might well work.

Next to that, they can realize some savings by negotiating joint handling contracts.
 
flytuitravel
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:40 pm

It is confirmed that SkyTeam members & non-alliance airlines will move to Terminal 4 (with the exception of VS) when Terminal 5 is finished. Oneworld members and VS (excl. BA) will move to Terminal 3 and Star Alliance members will move to Terminal 1.

flyTUITravel.
 
panamair
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:32 pm

Quoting Justapassenger (Thread starter):
NW would then serve Heathrow from DTW and MSP, CO from EWR and IAH and DL from ATL and JFK.

It also quotes Leo Van Vijk (KLM head) as saying that SFO and LAX from LHR are possibilities...AF and KL will codeshare on the services to be operated by DL, NW, and CO. Details will be announced in a few months.

AF, KL, DL, and NW (not CO) will also apply once again for ATI (was turned down by the US the last time round) so that a "joint-venture" over the Atlantic (a la NW-KL I suppose) will be possible amongst the four carriers.
 
ptugarin
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:22 pm

I imagine, OK, SU and KE, would also be part of the deal.
 
GlobalATL
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:42 pm

Is terminal 4 a good or bad terminal; in reference to location, appealing to the eye, new or old ??
TriStar BusinessElite FedEx AirTran Delta Air Lines oneworld SkyTeam JetBlue/jetBlue MAXjet SkyMiles Eos = good spelling
 
panamair
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 7):
Is terminal 4 a good or bad terminal; in reference to location, appealing to the eye, new or old ??

Terminal 4 is newer than T1/2/3 though 1/2/3 have had some partial renovations; T1/2/3 are real eye-sores (actually IMO they don't have any distinctive architecture - just blocks of concrete) while T4 has some sort of architectural thought behind it (though not too much it seems). T4 is located quite far (separated by runways) from 1/2/3. 1/2/3 are joined and can be walked whereas T4 can only be reached from 1/2/3 by the Heathrow Express train or by bus/car/taxi. T4 can take a while to reach after landing if the runway between 1/2/3 and 4 is being used...
 
Boeing77W
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 7):
Is terminal 4 a good or bad terminal; in reference to location, appealing to the eye, new or old ??

It's separate from the other terminal buildings, on the southern side of the airfield but it is still linked with all of the public transport connections e.g. London Underground, Heathrow Express etc.

It's currently the youngest terminal in operation at the airport, opened in 1986 but it's actually one of the most out-dated. It's pretty overcrowded but this should be solved with BAs move to T5. Once T5 has opened BAA are going to carry out a major refurbishment of the terminal meaning all 5 terminals should be modernised

EDIT: PANAMAIR...you beat me to it!

[Edited 2007-06-05 16:00:46]
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 1):
SO will this be mainly O&D traffic then? SkyTeam has mo appreciable EU network from LHR. Just AMS, Italy & CDG really, al of which are well covered by non-stops.

Sky Team would have a very impressive London Heathrow network with the following destinations, in fact Sky Team would have more flights on a daily basis than Virgin Atlantic who is based at Heathrow would have~

CURRENT-37 Flights

Aeroflot
Moscow. SVO x 4

Air France
Paris. CDG x 10

Alitalia
Milan. LIN x 4
Milan. MXP x 3
Rome x 5

CSA
Prague x 2

KLM
Amsterdam x 8

Korean Air
Seoul x 1

COMING IN 2008

Continental Airlines
Houston, Newark

Delta Air Lines
Atlanta, New York. JFK

Northwest Airlines
Detroit, Minneapolis

The above do not take into consideration the rumored entrants to Sky Team ~ Malaysia, and Kenya Airways.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 10):
Sky Team would have a very impressive London Heathrow network with the following destinations, in fact Sky Team would have more flights on a daily basis than Virgin Atlantic who is based at Heathrow would have~

Hmmm, not sure you should be comaring Skyteam to one carrier, namely VS. Try comparing with OW and *A. I suspect you might come up with a different answer!
 
777
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 10):
he above do not take into consideration the rumored entrants to Sky Team ~ Malaysia, and Kenya Airways.

Kenya Airways, as well as COPA and Air Europa are not rumors: they will enter Skyteam as Associates in September.

rgds
 
vv701
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 8):
T4 can take a while to reach after landing if the runway between 1/2/3 and 4 is being used...

The runway between T4 and T1, T2 and T3 (27L / 09R) is ALWAYS in use. (LHR only has two runways so both are always in use, one for arrivals, one for departures.) Indeed since T5 is also situated between the two runways a big advantage for BA who will move most of their long haul flights from T4 to T5 when it opens is that of saving fuel costs as no aircraft taxiing to or from T5 will need to cross an active runway.
 
db373
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 10):
Sky Team would have a very impressive London Heathrow network with the following destinations, in fact Sky Team would have more flights on a daily basis than Virgin Atlantic who is based at Heathrow would have~

But if AF/KL are giving slots to DL/NW/CO as rumored, then wouldn't they have to drop some of their flights? If that's the case, then Skyteam won't be much bigger than they are now. They'll just have a lot of destinations to choose from.

Or am I missing something?
Keep Delta My Delta
 
cba
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting FlyTUITravel (Reply 4):
Oneworld members and VS (excl. BA) will move to Terminal 3

Terminal 3 is terrible! I love flying VS but every time I fly them back to the states from LHR I dread having to deal with the queues in T3. In March I arrived for a flight 3 hours early and still almost missed the flight because the lines for check in and security were absurd. The flight left 40 minutes late because even the crew couldn't get through it all on time!

Quoting Panamair (Reply 5):

AF, KL, DL, and NW (not CO) will also apply once again for ATI

Just curious, why is CO not going to apply? It seems that they are the least integrated into the Skyteam system. I also find it strange that they operate out of CDG2A while DL and NW operate out of 2E. Air France has pretty much abandoned 2A and 2B and left it for other carriers.
 
Humberside
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting FlyTUITravel (Reply 4):
It is confirmed that SkyTeam members & non-alliance airlines will move to Terminal 4 (with the exception of VS)

As far as the non alliance airlines go, I think it will depend on who their handler is. For example Icelandair use bmi, so will probably stay in T1/Heathrow East for as long as bmi have that contract

Another issue could be with non-aligned airlines that have interline agreements with bmi covering domestic routes - will they use T1/Heathrow East or T4?

Nothing new in this article, or anything about the non-aligned airlines (except VS), but the future plans are clearly explained
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ports-special-heathrow-reborn.html

[Edited 2007-06-05 18:30:48]

[Edited 2007-06-05 18:32:29]
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
vv701
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting Db373 (Reply 14):
But if AF/KL are giving slots to DL/NW/CO as rumored, then wouldn't they have to drop some of their flights?

KL have two daily RTM-LHR-RTM and two daily EIN-LHR-EIN rotations all flown by F50s, the only turboprop scheduled flights at LHR.
 
CALMSP
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:41 am

if i'm not mistaken, i am hearing that DL has 4 slots.......2 JFK, 1 ATL, 1 LAX, and 1 CVG.......can anyone else confirm this??
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 18):
if i'm not mistaken, i am hearing that DL has 4 slots.......2 JFK, 1 ATL, 1 LAX, and 1 CVG.......can anyone else confirm this??

I am thinking the reality will be more like 2x JFK, 2x ATL, 1x LAX. And yes there are a number of people that have said Delta Air Lines will be entering the Los Angeles to London market. However, I was under the impression that was not public information (LAX-LHR), as of yet.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 19):
I am thinking the reality will be more like 2x JFK, 2x ATL, 1x LAX. And yes there are a number of people that have said Delta Air Lines will be entering the Los Angeles to London market. However, I was under the impression that was not public information (LAX-LHR), as of yet.

I'm betting that all of the LHR slots will go to ATL and JFK for DL and additional LGW slots will then go to CVG, LAX and possibly SLC.
LAX is still an unknown to Europe for DL, and the strength of the hubs at CVG and SLC are still suspect to dedicate to such a valued prize as an LHR slot.  twocents 
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KLM685
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:06 am

I hope Aeromexico gets into LHR ASAP. It's the only skyteam member that doesn't have access to the airport yet...
KLM- The Best Airline in the World!
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
LAX is still an unknown to Europe for DL, and the strength of the hubs at CVG and SLC are still suspect to dedicate to such a valued prize as an LHR slot.

Not a chance that Delta is going to unleash a LHR slot on CVG or SLC. They are to low yileding in comparison to Los Angeles. Los Angeles O/D alone could fill the flight to Heathrow.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
and the strength of the hubs at CVG and SLC are still suspect to dedicate to such a valued prize as an LHR slot.

SLC-CDG is far more likely than SLC-LGW or LHR in my opinion for the simple reason that CDG is a SkyTeam hub.

DL would not waste a LHR slot of SLC or CVG, not a chance.

I sort of equate SLC to MEM in the sense that both are mid sized cities with pretty poor O&D who have (or will have) the transatlantic flight for the simple reason of easy connections to the South (in the case of MEM) or the West (in the case of SLC). Neither one of thise cities could ever dream of having a nonstop to Europe without a steady flow of connectng passengers.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 22):
They are to low yielding in comparison to Los Angeles. Los Angeles O/D alone could fill the flight to Heathrow.

You're thinking more like a TV-network marketing analyst rather than what DL network planning executives will do at LAX, and I don't think Europe is on their docket for expansion as much as Asia or Latin America from there. I would expect to see DL add South American cities such as LIM or SCL from LAX before a Europe flight to LHR. DL still has much O&D they had once upon a time at the end of the Western era (1987) to try and recapture at LAX for an LHR flight, considering the competition in that market. BA could eat them for lunch on this one.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
bobnwa
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:27 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 18):
if i'm not mistaken, i am hearing that DL has 4 slots.......2 JFK, 1 ATL, 1 LAX, and 1 CVG.......can anyone else confirm this??

As far as I know, neither DL, CO, or NW have any slots for LHR. This also applies to US. They will probably all get some , but for now, nada. Also, slots are not for a particular city pair, they are just a right to operate a flight at a certain time.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 19):
And yes there are a number of people that have said Delta Air Lines will be entering the Los Angeles to London market.

If DL does offer LAX-U.K. service anytime soon, it likely would be LGW for London and more than likely MAN since people in the northern U.K. want more direct west coast options to North America. All they have at the moment is YVR-MAN at the moment.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 23):
DL would not waste a LHR slot of SLC or CVG, not a chance.

 checkmark  ATL and JFK will get such first and foremost.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 23):
I sort of equate SLC to MEM in the sense that both are mid sized cities with pretty poor O&D who have (or will have) the transatlantic flight for the simple reason of easy connections to the South (in the case of MEM) or the West (in the case of SLC). Neither one of these cities could ever dream of having a nonstop to Europe without a steady flow of connecting passengers.

MEM is a much bigger aberation in this with the NW AMS-MEM flight. SLC isn't a smaller O&D market than MEM, and the last I checked has over 40,000 O&D passengers to the U.K. annually, hence the argument for DL to look at LGW in addition to CDG for a Europe flight if it ever reaches fruition. But I don't expect any SLC-Europe service until DL has enough spare aircraft to experiment with, so I don't expect this until 2009-2010 at the earliest if ever. As it is, DL will be pulling all but one of their SLC-Hawaii flights out this fall (SLC-HNL on a non-ER 763 1x daily stays), and all other island destinations (OGG, KOA etc...) will go via LAX.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
Rivet42
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 25):
As far as I know, neither DL, CO, or NW have any slots for LHR. This also applies to US. They will probably all get some , but for now, nada. Also, slots are not for a particular city pair, they are just a right to operate a flight at a certain time.

Quite.

And it's even more comlicated than that, because the type of aircraft allowed for any given slot will depend upon the current capacity of the terminal to be used. According to the capacity graphs on the slot management website, most terminals are already at or above planned capacity for large parts of the operational day, so it's going to be one heck of a juggling act, especially if someone wants to change a slot from an existing A.319 to a B.777...

Riv'
I travel, therefore I am.
 
flytuitravel
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 16):
Another issue could be with non-aligned airlines that have interline agreements with bmi covering domestic routes - will they use T1/Heathrow East or T4?

I don't think it will depend on interline agreements because a lot of airlines e.g. BD / SK have agreements but BD's main operation is out of Terminal One and SK's entire operation is out of Terminal Three and they still have a large codeshare agreement. It's the same with BI, MH, SQ, TG to name a few who all use Terminal Three but all have agreements with BD's domestic routes from Terminal One.


flyTUITravel
 
pdxcof9
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:29 am

Let's see...If DL started a SLC-CDG. That would be the day. I'm guessing it's a 10 hour flight there 11 hours back. About the same distance as the ATL-FCO flight.
If it left at the 11:30 bank it would get in at about 5:30 am CDG time.
If it left at the 5:00 bank it would get in at about 11:00 am.
I think the second option is better.
Leave at 5:00pm get in at 11:00am. AF has a bank at noonish to 1pm.
Then it leaves CDG at 2pm get into SLC at 5pm.
That's not too bad of a time to get into SLC. I guess people could wait in the airport for the 7pm bank or 9pm bank. That's when pretty much every west coast destination leaves.
Now all DL needs to do is get a few 767's to do the route.  Smile
Flown:733,4,7,8,752,763,TU3,CRJ,7,EM2,ER3,4,318,19,346,M80,90 Worked:CRJ,7,9,EM2,ER4,733,5,7,8,9,752,3,318,9
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 26):
and the last I checked has over 40,000 O&D passengers to the U.K.

Just curious, where did you find out that information? I've always been interested in finding out O&D numbers between U.S and European cities.
 
panamair
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 18):
if i'm not mistaken, i am hearing that DL has 4 slots.......2 JFK, 1 ATL, 1 LAX, and 1 CVG

That would be 5: 2 JFK + 1 ATL + 1 LAX + 1 CVG  Smile.
If it's 4, it would be 2 JFK + 1 ATL + 1 LAX.....

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
additional LGW slots will then go to CVG, LAX



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
LAX is still an unknown to Europe for DL,



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 26):
If DL does offer LAX-U.K. service anytime soon, it likely would be LGW for London

It would be suicidal for DL to do LAX-LGW. Especially, as you said, if LAX is untested for Europe with DL, why do LGW when it's clear that LHR will do better, and all of your competition there (AA, UA, VS, BA) all do LHR? LAX is like JFK in a way in that if DL decides to enter the market, they will HAVE to do it through LHR. As it is, they are already struggling with 2x daily JFK-LGW right now...

And the biggest giveaway of all is Grinstein's statement from an ATW article (April 6):

".....More may come if DL is able to take advantage of the new EU-US open skies agreement and acquire slots at London Heathrow for service from ATL, New York JFK and one additional US market..."

Gee, what could that "one additional US market" be? If it were an existing gateway such as CVG, he would have mentioned CVG.....
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 30):
Just curious, where did you find out that information? I've always been interested in finding out O&D numbers between U.S and European cities.

This number came up in an SLTribune article last year when SLC-Europe flights were a highly discussed item, especially the prospect of SLC landing a CDG flight that never materialized for summer 2007.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 31):
It would be suicidal for DL to do LAX-LGW. Especially, as you said, if LAX is untested for Europe with DL, why do LGW when it's clear that LHR will do better, and all of your competition there (AA, UA, VS, BA) all do LHR? LAX is like JFK in a way in that if DL decides to enter the market, they will HAVE to do it through LHR. As it is, they are already struggling with 2x daily JFK-LGW right now...

Which is why I think LAX-Europe is very low on the plate for DL right now. If you're LAX based and a DL FF, chances are you'll have to go via ATL or JFK to get there, just the same as if you're SLC based.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 31):
Gee, what could that "one additional US market" be? If it were an existing gateway such as CVG, he would have mentioned CVG.....

I think this one will be left to a determination to be made later when this new U.S./E.U. bilateral comes into play.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
jacobin777
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 22):
Not a chance that Delta is going to unleash a LHR slot on CVG or SLC. They are to low yileding in comparison to Los Angeles. Los Angeles O/D alone could fill the flight to Heathrow.

..though we have 4 carriers which serve LHR-LAX, it isn't the strongest of routes..thus why one sees BA dropping a B744 and AA dropping a B772ER during the fall/winter months....
"Up the Irons!"
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:19 am

T4 was a poor design for something built in the 80s, it always seems too 'thin', the check in queues seem to snake around everywhere. I read somewhere that it was designed for medium haul middle eastern carriers, but BA pulled rank and insisted they should have the newest terminal, a decision I'm sure they regret now! Poor location too, it can take ages to taxi there to and from the runways...

BA moving out should help a lot though, seeing that they have a lot of 744s based there currently, a type unlikely to be much used by any of the Skyteam carriers.
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
nzrich
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:35 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 31):
It would be suicidal for DL to do LAX-LGW. Especially, as you said, if LAX is untested for Europe with DL, why do LGW when it's clear that LHR will do better, and all of your competition there (AA, UA, VS, BA) all do LHR? LAX is like JFK in a way in that if DL decides to enter the market, they will HAVE to do it through LHR. As it is, they are already struggling with 2x daily JFK-LGW right now...

And dont forget the daily NZ flight LAX-LHR as well .. With 5 carriers already operating this route im sure DL could find a much more profitable route to compete on especially as there are 3 Premium airlines NZ VS and BA along with AA and UA it wont be easy for DL or any new carrier on this route..
"Pride of the pacific"
 
Mir
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:00 am

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 7):
Is terminal 4 a good or bad terminal; in reference to location, appealing to the eye, new or old ??

No terminal at LHR is really appealing to the eye (except for T5). I've found T4 to be relatively pretty good, though not as good as T3 in terms of shops (though it's much better for connections, so long as you don't have to change terminals).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Evan767
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:03 am

Does someone have an airport diagram to explain T4? Also, will this mean a short taxi time for SkyTeam?
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:01 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 24):
DL still has much O&D they had once upon a time at the end of the Western era (1987) to try and recapture at LAX for an LHR flight, considering the competition in that market. BA could eat them for lunch on this one

Then if by what you say Delta Air Lines will not prosper on its New York to London routes, or Atlanta to London routes. Of which both have rather good loads and yields.

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 35):
And dont forget the daily NZ flight LAX-LHR as well .. With 5 carriers already operating this route im sure DL could find a much more profitable route to compete on especially as there are 3 Premium airlines NZ VS and BA along with AA and UA it wont be easy for DL or any new carrier on this route..

You are forgetting of course that MaxJet is commencing service from Los Angeles to Stansted. That would be another premium airline on the route.

One thing is for certain Delta Air Lines, in re-establishing itself in the Los Angeles market is going to be getting into a pissing match, as they have already begun. United is the weakest of the US airlines on the route, with AA being the strongest. It will be interesting to see how long UA will remain on the LAX-LHR route if Delta Air Lines enters the market. Even more so with the new Delta Business Elite Suites on the 777. If Delta does not add Heathrow I am willing to bet either an Auckland-Sydney, or Sydney-Melbourne service will be added to the Delta Los Angeles operation within the next year or so.


-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
SkyyMaster
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:17 am

I don't see anything here that spells H-U-B. No Skyteam airline has a major presence at LHR now, and open skies isn't going to give up that many options. Member airlines will obviously add some O & D flights, but turning it into a hub is quite a stretch of the imagination, especially with the stranglehold oneworld, and to a lesser extent Star have and always will have on LHR. Skyteam carriers will do good to pick up slots and offer better services to their respective hubs (read: CO, DL, NW).
 
centrair
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 39):
I don't see anything here that spells H-U-B.

I am not at all that knowledgable of LHR but I too don't see it as HUB but consolidation of operations between alliances. It is like what has happened at NRT.
At NRT
Skyteam is at T1 North
Star Alliance is at T1 South (NZ excluded)
OneWorld is at T2
Non-alliance are at T1 North and T2

Only NH, JL, NW and to some extent UA would consider NRT a HUB.

So LHR T4 Skyteam is just consolidation of operations. It would certainly would control flow of passengers, interlining of baggage through partners, rerouting of passengers and ground handling.*

*Who does ground handling for current Skyteam members at LHR and who would handle DL, NW or CO?

That all being said, HUB would be the vernacular used to describe T4 at LHR. (I would call it the Skyteam & Friends Terminal)
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
panamair
Posts: 3767
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:44 pm

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 37):
Also, will this mean a short taxi time for SkyTeam?

Depends...if run 27L/09R which is between T4 and the T1/2/3 complex is being used for landings, then it's a relatively short taxi time for T4 after landing; however, if the other runway (on the other side of T1/2/3) is being used for landings, then it will be a quite a long taxi as the aircraft will have to cross 27L/09R and wait for the takeoff traffic there...
 
goldorak
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:08 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 15):
Just curious, why is CO not going to apply? It seems that they are the least integrated into the Skyteam system. I also find it strange that they operate out of CDG2A while DL and NW operate out of 2E. Air France has pretty much abandoned 2A and 2B and left it for other carriers.

AF has still quite a lot of flights from 2A & 2B but less than before. They will pull out progressively from these 2 concourses when 2E will be reopened and S3 fully operative. CO is using an AF lounge at 2A (the ex-Concorde lounge).

Quoting Centrair (Reply 40):
Who does ground handling for current Skyteam members at LHR and who would handle DL, NW or CO?

AF has a division for ground handling in LHR called AFSL. They handle AF of course but also other airlines like SU. May be they will handle all Skyteam partners at T4 ?
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:06 pm

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 37):
Also, will this mean a short taxi time for SkyTeam?

Depends on the arrival time. IIRC, when landing east, they'll land on 9L, and thus have to cross 9R. When landing west, until 3pm they'll use 27L, so no crossings involved. However, after 3pm, they'll use 27R, so not only will they have to cross, but they'll be at the wrong end of the airport. However, the last time I did that taxi I don't remember it being onerously long.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 39):
I don't see anything here that spells H-U-B.

Nor do I. However, I could potentially see calling it a focus city, what with the increase in transatlantic flights.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:08 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 38):
One thing is for certain Delta Air Lines, in re-establishing itself in the Los Angeles market is going to be getting into a pissing match, as they have already begun. United is the weakest of the US airlines on the route, with AA being the strongest. It will be interesting to see how long UA will remain on the LAX-LHR route if Delta Air Lines enters the market. Even more so with the new Delta Business Elite Suites on the 777. If Delta does not add Heathrow I am willing to bet either an Auckland-Sydney, or Sydney-Melbourne service will be added to the Delta Los Angeles operation within the next year or so.

DL coming in on the LHR-LAX route will be in for a war. Granted UA, only offer one daily but that one daily is full almost all year round and and additional service would have been offered in the summer months had they the metal. AA, offers I think two 777's year round. Not sure why you clain AA are the strongest on the route unless you just mean the US majors as I am sure BA would have something to say about that. As for UA bailing out of the route because of DL Business Elite Suites eventually coming, before they see the light of day UA will be well on the way to reconfiguring their whole long haul fleet with new F & J seats which starts at the ned of the year. IMHO opinion DL would be better concentrating elsewhere before they start that route up.
 
vv701
Posts: 5783
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 37):
Does someone have an airport diagram to explain T4? Also, will this mean a short taxi time for SkyTeam?

T4 is in the south of the airport. To get to or from T4 from 27R/09L you must cross 27L/09R which is always an active runway.

When (the prevailing) westerly winds are blowing either 27R or 27L is used for arrivals from 0500 in the morning until 1500 in the mid afternoon. The other runway (27L or 27R) is used for departures. At 1500 hours the arrival and departure runways are switched. In week 2 the morning arrival runway in week 1 becomes the morning departure runway and so on.

When an easterly wind is blowing 09L is exclusively used for arrivals. ALL departures are from 09R. Occasionally (as traffic requires) 09R is used in mixed mode (with a small number of arrivals). But there are NO departures from 09L.

Here is a map with T4 to the south and T1, T2 and T3 in the central area. T5 will be located on the western perimeter between the two main runways and is marked 'T5 Construction Site' on the map. (Note that 'Runway 23' is no longer a runway having been redesignated 'Taxiway A':
http://lhr-lgw.co.uk/maingroup/maps/EGLL2004.pdf
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 44):
Not sure why you clain AA are the strongest on the route unless you just mean the US majors

Forgive, I did indeed mean of the US airlines on the route.

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 44):
As for UA bailing out of the route because of DL Business Elite Suites eventually coming, before they see the light of day UA will be well on the way to reconfiguring their whole long haul fleet with new F & J seats which starts at the ned of the year.

United Airlines has drug its feet left and right since they have left bankruptcy. The United Airlines fleet is no more rationalized now than when United Airlines went in to bankruptcy. For having one of the longest bankruptcies on record, United Airlines would seem to have failed to worry about their cabins. There is an old saying "Why by a big house, when you cant afford to put curtains on the inside". That would pretty much sum up United Airlines approach to its product. It is new colors on some of the aircraft on the outside, and nothing but the same tattered United from the late 1990's on the inside.

Now when it comes to the new Business Class, of which United has seemed to talk a lot about, but produce nothing of. That has to be taken with a grain of salt. If United Airlines wants to remain competitive then a lot has to be done. A name can only get you so far. By far I have seen United Airlines fares at a level above Delta Air Lines. If you are a traveller on a route such as Los Angeles to Heathrow or Los Angeles to Sydney. If Delta is under or at the same level of United, most would then think about product. The United Airlines Economy and Economy Plus product, combined with Business Class product on either Sydney or Heathrow is a miserable experience.

The only United product I see standing up to Delta Air Lines suites, and this is a stretch are the domestic First product on United Airlines Premium Service, and those are ala Singapore Airlines. It will be interesting. Should we also discuss United Airlines gross oversight of Customer Service? As can be seen Delta Air Lines is pleased with the ongoing performance of the Los Angeles operation and will continue to grow as it has continued to add frequencies in what were once United Airlines markets. Delta Air Lines will continue to grow at Los Angeles whether United Airlines has the will power, brains, or financial means or not.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 46):
Now when it comes to the new Business Class, of which United has seemed to talk a lot about, but produce nothing of. That has to be taken with a grain of salt. If United Airlines wants to remain competitive then a lot has to be done. A name can only get you so far. By far I have seen United Airlines fares at a level above Delta Air Lines. If you are a traveller on a route such as Los Angeles to Heathrow or Los Angeles to Sydney. If Delta is under or at the same level of United, most would then think about product. The United Airlines Economy and Economy Plus product, combined with Business Class product on either Sydney or Heathrow is a miserable experience.

Hmm, a lot of hot air there. If your saying that UA has only just come out and said that they are going to upgrade their F & J product just of late, I suggest you start to learn how to use the search facility on this site or go to UA's web site and look at the archive press releases, you might learn something.
I think you will find that the majority of people actually book the cheapest ticket and know nothing about the product unless they are FF's in which case your right but the majority in Y, do not, if they did would you fly on a poxy 767 all the way to JNB on DL with a stop on route or would you go on SAA. I know what I would do, but a lot of people in Y would not look iinto it before hand.
UA will make $100m a year on passenger paying a suplliment at the airpoty to fly in Y+
They pack their 747's to the gills, have high loads especially to somewhere like SYD, so economically why do they need to upgrade their Y product? I might add that they need to get away from the single screen at the front of Y and just place overhead monitors through out the cabin.
I suspect, UA is not losng too much slep on DL's plans at LAX
I did not want to get into a DL plus UA bashing here, you obviously felt the need as your on the back foot. I was comparing DL to all the other carriers on the LAX - LHR route.
Please do some research in future before you post garbage on here.

Happy flying!
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5186
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting Db373 (Reply 14):
But if AF/KL are giving slots to DL/NW/CO as rumored, then wouldn't they have to drop some of their flights?

AF still owns unsued slots at LHR, and will also reduce its frequencies on CDG-LHR-CDG when the TGV Eurostar will be even fatser between Paris and London, after the new tracks will be fully in use on the British side next November 2007.
Travel time between Paris and London will be reduced to 2h15 (2h35 now).

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 42):
AF has still quite a lot of flights from 2A & 2B but less than before. They will pull out progressively from these 2 concourses when 2E will be reopened and S3 fully operative. CO is using an AF lounge at 2A (the ex-Concorde lounge).

AF Operations at CDG will be concentrated at the Terminal 2C/2D/2E/2F anf the future 2G, when the 2E will be reopend and fully operational early 2008.
S3 is not a "Terminal". It's a éSatellite", which means that there won't be any Check-in or delivery luggages facilities there. Only boearding lounges/gates.
Passengers will check in in Terminal 2E or 2F and take an automatic train to reach their borading gates in the S3.
The Future 2G will be linked to 2E and 2F and will be reserved for AF Regional flights.
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: Skyteam Hub At Heathrow!

Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 47):
They pack their 747's to the gills, have high loads

It has been said over and over again. A full flight and high loads do not by any means equate to a profit margin.

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 47):
so economically why do they need to upgrade their Y product?

To remain competitive in the market place. Even Northwest Airlines has talked about revamping its cabins and interiors. It is all hand in hand. The way of thinking that you are putting forth will end up with United Airlines back in bankruptcy for a second time.

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 47):
I did not want to get into a DL plus UA bashing here, you obviously felt the need as your on the back foot. I was comparing DL to all the other carriers on the LAX - LHR route.

There is no United Airlines vs Delta Air Lines bashing match here. In fact that was started with your misplaced "garbage" comment. I put forth in my previous reply that United Airlines was lagging behind Delta Air Lines. In addition I put forward the key points for which United was lagging behind Delta Air Lines. These included but were not limited to - lack of cabin revitalization, lack of product enhancement, lack of Customer Service, among others. Are we to ignore the fact that Delta Air Lines is in the Los Angeles market and breathing down the neck of United Airlines? Delta Air Lines and United Airlines are both in it to take the prize at Los Angeles. In the end it will be the airline that is most dedicated, and offers best value for money.

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 47):
if they did would you fly on a poxy 767 all the way to JNB on DL with a stop on route or would you go on SAA.

I am not sure what South Africa has to do with Los Angeles?

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 47):
UA's web site and look at the archive press releases, you might learn something.

Please find the link below to see where I have found my information regarding Delta Air Lines new Business Elite seat. Of note Delta is the first U.S. airline to offer a lie-flat seat.

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10405

Please find the link below. It would appear as though United Airlines new First Class seat is very similar in size and structure as the new Delta, Virgin, and Air New Zealand Business Class product.

http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2...pdate-new-united-first-class-seat/

There was no mention of a new United Airlines Business Class seat on the United Airlines website. In addition as has been widely discussed United Airlines is waiting to unveil its "new" Business Class seat until later this year. At current the "new" United Airlines First Class seat looks a lot like that of Virgin, Delta, and Air New Zealand Business Class as I have pointed out above.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI