LIPZ
Topic Author
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KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:03 pm

According to The Korea Herald KE looks forward to starting new flights to Sao Paulo and Johannesburg.


Korean Air, South Korea's largest airline, wants to start flights to Johannesburg in South Africa and Sao Paulo in Brazil as it expands into emerging economies to tap the growth in air travel.

The Seoul-based carrier aims to start services within a year of getting approval from the governments, Park Yong-soon, Korean Air's managing vice president of international affairs and alliance, said in an interview yesterday.

www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2007/06/07/200706070021.asp



I know Air China flies PEK-GRU via MAD, Japan Airlines NRT-GRU via JFK, what routing should we expect from Korea to Brazil?

[Edited 2007-06-06 13:08:31]
 
elmothehobo
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:14 pm

Korean Airlines flew to Sao Paulo via Los Angeles until 2001 IIRC, maybe we can expect some of the same.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:15 pm

Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
I know Air China flies PEK-GRU via MAD, Japan Airlines NRT-GRU via JFK, what routing should we expect from Korea to Brazil?

Well, last time around they went via LAX, flying SEL LAX GRU a couple of times a week with MD11 and later B744, so they could just resume that service, although given the ever increasing number of visa restraints in the US, they might very well opt for an alternative transit point for such a service.

[Edited 2007-06-06 13:16:35]
 
MarioSPlane
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:21 pm

Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
I know Air China flies PEK-GRU via MAD, Japan Airlines NRT-GRU via JFK, what routing should we expect from Korea to Brazil?

My guess would be a routing via LAX since Korean did serve GRU via LAX in the 90´s.

Cheers
 
miaskies
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:07 pm

How about MIA? KE Cargo already flies to MIA with 744 and MAH...posted some time ago that both Korean and JAL have interest in flying passenger routes to MIA.

Could be possible! the ERA of the Dreamliner is just around the corner...
Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
 
airlineaddict
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:47 pm

Routing via LAX would be a smart move if they can get fifth freedom LAX - GRU - LAX as there is currently no non-stop service from LAX to GRU.
 
incitatus
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:55 pm

I've heard South Africa is blocking an increase in frequency for Malaysia to EZE. They will put any obstable they can into Korean's path.
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MaverickM11
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:36 pm

Why did KE can ICN/GRU the first time around?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MarioSPlane
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Why did KE can ICN/GRU the first time around?

Did you mean cancel ?

It was credited to the aftermath of the asian emerging markets crisis in the late 90´s. I really don´t remember the exact year they´ve quit operating in GRU, so I can´t really state the connection between the facts.

Cheers
 
MaverickM11
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting MarioSPlane (Reply 8):
Did you mean cancel ?

Yeah...to "can" something is to cancel/close/86/end/wrap

Quoting MarioSPlane (Reply 8):
I really don´t remember the exact year they´ve quit operating in GRU

It must have been 9/11 since it was at 3x weekly until the end of 2000 when it went between 2 and 3 weekly and finally ended SEP01.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
C010T3
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
I know Air China flies PEK-GRU via MAD, Japan Airlines NRT-GRU via JFK, what routing should we expect from Korea to Brazil?

According to the Korea-Brazil bilateral, KE may fly to GRU or GIG via LAX, SFO, IAH, DFW, ATL, New Zealand, Australia, Canada and Latin America.
Most probably they will try it via LAX, but if they are willing to innovate they could try interesting routes via:

ATL or IAH, since the support of Skyteam hubs wouldn't hurt. The route through LAX is longer anyway...
PTY, because flying through a country where visas are not required for Brazilians wouldn't be such a bad idea. When is CM joining Sky? PTY would require a 777, but KE is phasing out their 744 anyway.
YYZ could work, but a Star hub would not be the best fit, I guess. Wouldn't YYZ and GRU fight each other in terms of yields? Perhaps they could fly through YVR and fill Y with Brazilian teenagers from December to February.
AKL or SYD. Wouldn't that be too long? SYD we might just forget, since I see Korea and Australia going to war before Qantas ever agrees to that.

After a revision of the bilateral, we could see following:

AMS, since the Netherlands are liberal, they might even question why they never thought of it. KL is a partner and could help, but I don't know if AF will be so fond of the idea, since they are starting new flights to Brazil.
SVO, since it is a Sky hub and I see SU supporting it. A Russia-Brazil link would be very interesting and welcome.
FCO, since the Italy and Brazil have good ties, but I don't see Italy agreeing to 5th freedom rights.
VIE has been served from Brazil before, why not again...?
PRG, IST and CAI would be exotic very interesting additions to the destinations that can be reached nonstop from GRU. PRG has the advantage of being a Sky hub.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Why did KE can ICN/GRU the first time around?

Because of 9/11, I presume. Wasn't it after it?

[Edited 2007-06-06 17:19:11]
 
IAD380
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:55 am

Would KE fly ICN-JNB nonstop? What type of aircraft is it likely to fly to JNB?
 
2travel2know
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:39 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
PTY, because flying through a country where visas are not required for Brazilians wouldn't be such a bad idea. When is CM joining Sky? PTY would require a 777, but KE is phasing out their 744 anyway.

Yes, it sounds interesting, but there are some factors that work against KE flying to GRU via PTY:
Range - ICN-PTY, a CTS stop my dampen it but it would make the service very unattractive. If ANC gets TWOV allowances, that's another thing.
CM - CM wouldn't like to have an SkyTeam competitor on the PTY-GRU route, specially if flying widebodies; but all the connecting possibilities may make them reconsider that.
Yellowfever vaccination certificate - Now all passengers flying thru PTY hub to/from Brazil must have one.
I definetly would like to see Asian flights again in PTY (BR flew here) but I'm not sure if PTY is on any Asian airline radar now.

Want an exotic suggestion for a KE ICN-GRU? Fly it via HAV.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
C010T3
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):
Yes, it sounds interesting, but there are some factors that work against KE flying to GRU via PTY:
Range - ICN-PTY, a CTS stop my dampen it but it would make the service very unattractive. If ANC gets TWOV allowances, that's another thing.

Really? Even with the 77W? I am not very familiar with the North Pacific restrictions. Why would TWOV be needed for ANC, when the flight would only overfly Alaska?

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):
Yellowfever vaccination certificate - Now all passengers flying thru PTY hub to/from Brazil must have one.

Even when it is a mere stop?

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):
Want an exotic suggestion for a KE ICN-GRU? Fly it via HAV.

LOL!  laughing 
 
MAS777
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:10 am

KE would do well to bring MH on as a partner for JNB (+ CPT if it wished).
KE and MH already code-share on the ICN-KUL route and KE's flight times arrive in excellent time to connect with MH's onward service to JNB and CPT.
If KE wanted to fly the route in its own right then a stopover in KUL would also bolster MH's service (should they code-share).

Begs the question as to exactly how long the other Skyteam partners would wait for AF's approval for MH's entry...
 
LIPZ
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
VIE has been served from Brazil before, why not again...?

It would be really appreciated  Wink
 
dellatorre
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:00 am

The only feasible places for starting such flight would be through LAX or JFK. Canada is a very restrictive market! It would never work!!

In Europe, AF&KL already take care of that for KE, besides competition from LH.

So it's either through a US point or nothing.

Anyways, I doubt KE will risk coming to Brazil without a strong partner & a good intermediate stop.
The market between Brazil & Korean is smaller, when compared to Japan & China.
 
2travel2know
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:45 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 13):
Why would TWOV be needed for ANC, when the flight would only overfly Alaska?

If the route is ICN-ANC-PTY-GRU, ANC being a (tech-) stop.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 13):
Even when it is a mere stop?

Well, I can't assure that. 1st only passengers traveling between PTY and Brazil were required to have Yellowfever vaccination certificates, now all passengers no matter if they're only connecting to/from Brazil @ PTY need it.
It would be very likely that if any passengers on such a Asia-PTY-Brazil flight was to go to stretch his/her legs at PTY duty free area, regardless if traveling on the same aircraft, Brazil will require him/her a vaccination certificate.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
HeeseokKoo
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:13 am

KE says a lot of those words, "We will soon fly to somewhere" or "We have plans to fly somewhere", something like that. Already MEX, MIA, and IAH are "on order". Then, suddenly start LAS since JAL pulled out, and suddenly VIE and MAD were launched. They should upgrade 772ERs soon with AVOD and new F/C seats, before expanding network.

Anyway, if KE resumes GRU, I think it will be via LAX since KE has full fifth freedom and they did well several years ago. One thing I mind is that the aircraft used to stay in GRU for 18 hours before coming back, and KE does not like long layover anymore. (SYD and AKL became quick turn.) Or, GRU-LAX can be a daytime flight - then KE can avoid such long layover at GRU, like 1200-2000 on GRU-LAX.

Also, JNB will via BKK as announced before. KE tries to launch this route this NOV, not confirmed yet though. 3 weekies with 772ER is their initial plan. And ICN-AMN will be launched this NOV, but also not confirmed yet.
 
hardiwv
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
Well, last time around they went via LAX, flying SEL LAX GRU a couple of times a week with MD11 and later B744, so they could just resume that service, although given the ever increasing number of visa restraints in the US, they might very well opt for an alternative transit point for such a service.

And dont forget that Brazil's VASP also operated GRU-LAX-SEL with the MD-11 in the late 1990s.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 16):
Anyways, I doubt KE will risk coming to Brazil without a strong partner & a good intermediate stop.

I agree that If KE comes back to GRU it will be via LAX. KE already has the partnership of LA in Latin America and in LAX specifically. In fact, LA currently operates LAX-LIM-GRU. KE could operate LAX-GRU full codeshare with LA.

Rgs,
 
C010T3
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 17):
If the route is ICN-ANC-PTY-GRU, ANC being a (tech-) stop.

That was exactly what I was questioning it. Why the ANC tech-stop at all? The distance between ICN and PTY is 7666 nm and the range of the 77E is 7730 nm and of the 77W is 7930 nm.
 
PPVRA
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:58 am

What about GVA or ZRH? Even AMS. . . RG tried to fly to NGO from these places, but got a no-no from Japan (reason - too much competition for Japanese airlines  Yeah sure ). Could work for Korea though.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
ATL or IAH, since the support of Skyteam hubs wouldn't hurt.

Would be really cool, but through the USA is a bit more complicated. . .

[Edited 2007-06-06 23:02:11]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
hardiwv
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
AMS, since the Netherlands are liberal, they might even question why they never thought of it. KL is a partner and could help

I dont think KE would operate via AMS. ICN-AMS is dominated by KLM which operates daily B747, while KE operates 3 x week A332.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 21):
What about GVA or ZRH? Even AMS. . .

KE does not operate in GVA.

Taking into account the US-VISA transit problem and 1) NYC-GRU is already extremely competitive with many players: JJ, AA, DL, CO and JAL, I would rule it out; 2) LAX is a potential market, but has very thin traffic to Brazil, and if TAM starts operations in LAX there wont be much left for KE.

This leads me to consider that KE could try to operate to GRU via Europe. Ideally this would happen via a SkyTeam hub. Currently KE operates to CDG, AMS, FCO and PRG. Of these, PRG, AMS and FCO offer a good traffic potential. PRG specialy could open a new gateway to Brazil.

Rgs,
 
incitatus
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:49 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
That was exactly what I was questioning it. Why the ANC tech-stop at all? The distance between ICN and PTY is 7666 nm and the range of the 77E is 7730 nm and of the 77W is 7930 nm.

This is a standard range quote that does not account for airline specific equipment added to the aircraft or route specific conditions. For a PYT-ICN flight on those aircraft carrying freight would be pretty much ruled out making the economics of the flight unatractive. In bad weather days the restrictions may affect the ability to carry passengers too.

KE would never go for two stops between ICN and GRU. It would be at a disadvantage compared to several other carriers offering 1-stop service.
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HeeseokKoo
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:06 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
This leads me to consider that KE could try to operate to GRU via Europe.

That would not happen in near future unless Korean government make another aviation bilaterial with one of the nations. Currently KE does not have any 5th freedom via European countries, as far as I know. The only nations KE/Korean airliners have 5th freedom are: USA (unlimited), Japan, China, Thai, Singapore, India and Brazil (limited rights except USA), and maybe!! UAE, Russia and South Africa. And all 5th rights are used for 'via Japan' by KE's ICN-NRT-LAX.

Well, if needed, they can make another bilaterial. However, obtaining 5th freedom is not easy mostly.

[Edited 2007-06-07 15:07:14]
 
hardiwv
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 24):
That would not happen in near future unless Korean government make another aviation bilaterial with one of the nations. Currently KE does not have any 5th freedom via European countries

Thanks for the clarification and then indeed I think KE will operate to Brazil via the US or perhaps Canada. Again, LAX would be the front runner.

However, in the article of the newspaper, KE VP states:

"Our government will have talks with the two countries [Brazil and South Africa] and according to the traffic rights that we obtain, we are going to start services"

What does he mean to "according to the traffic rights"? I thought Korea already had traffics rights via the US and 7 weekly frequencies for Brazil. Or the Korean Government would need to negotiate the bilateral again or perhaps the bilateral expired? And why does KE have to wait for 1 year to get permission by the Korean Government to fly to GRU and/or JNB?

Rgs,
 
Analog
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):

Yeah...to "can" something is to cancel/close/86/end/wrap

"can" [verb]: place into a circular file (trash [can])  Big grin
 
C010T3
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 23):
This is a standard range quote that does not account for airline specific equipment added to the aircraft or route specific conditions. For a PYT-ICN flight on those aircraft carrying freight would be pretty much ruled out making the economics of the flight unatractive. In bad weather days the restrictions may affect the ability to carry passengers too.

KE would never go for two stops between ICN and GRU. It would be at a disadvantage compared to several other carriers offering 1-stop service.

I know, but I thought that reducing the cargo a bit would be enough. Not always are the flights fully booked, so that would meet the weight restrictions most of the time. I don't know what rough percentage of the range must be compromised in order to assure that the flight will reach the destination even if it goes through unexpected severe conditions during flight, but it cannot be that much, or can it? Does someone know how much is it normally? 10%?
Maybe ICN-PTY could be a choice for when KE's 787 arrive.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
This leads me to consider that KE could try to operate to GRU via Europe. Ideally this would happen via a SkyTeam hub. Currently KE operates to CDG, AMS, FCO and PRG. Of these, PRG, AMS and FCO offer a good traffic potential. PRG specialy could open a new gateway to Brazil.

What about SVO? Don't you think it could be a good fit?
 
MAH4546
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 25):

What does he mean to "according to the traffic rights"? I thought Korea already had traffics rights via the US and 7 weekly frequencies for Brazil. Or the Korean Government would need to negotiate the bilateral again or perhaps the bilateral expired? And why does KE have to wait for 1 year to get permission by the Korean Government to fly to GRU and/or JNB?

Korean Air announced that they are planning to fly to Miami late last year. I would not rule out the possiblity of them flying to GRU via MIA, and possibly applying to amend the Brazil-Korea air treaty to allow them to add MIA as a via point. Just a possiblility, even though via LAX is more likely.
a.
 
C010T3
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 28):
Korean Air announced that they are planning to fly to Miami late last year. I would not rule out the possiblity of them flying to GRU via MIA, and possibly applying to amend the Brazil-Korea air treaty to allow them to add MIA as a via point. Just a possiblility, even though via LAX is more likely.

Then, I guess that the GRU-MIA should liberalised, because the capacity on this route is becoming so enormous that controlled fares don't make sense anymore.
 
HeeseokKoo
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 25):
"Our government will have talks with the two countries [Brazil and South Africa] and according to the traffic rights that we obtain, we are going to start services"

What does he mean to "according to the traffic rights"? I thought Korea already had traffics rights via the US and 7 weekly frequencies for Brazil. Or the Korean Government would need to negotiate the bilateral again or perhaps the bilateral expired? And why does KE have to wait for 1 year to get permission by the Korean Government to fly to GRU and/or JNB?

Hmm.. good question. It seems that it's not easy to open a route which includes 5th freedom. Currently I can't access the bilateral documents, so I have no idea about this. And there's no rule about "1 year" stuff, perhaps there are a lot of works to do.

Anyway, KE is struggling to use one or two free 772ERs which will be available from this NOV. Can't wait what KE will choose.
 
hardiwv
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 28):
Korean Air announced that they are planning to fly to Miami late last year. I would not rule out the possiblity of them flying to GRU via MIA, and possibly applying to amend the Brazil-Korea air treaty to allow them to add MIA as a via point. Just a possiblility, even though via LAX is more likely.

Interesting comment and MIA-GRU has such bulk traffic that any player would always capture some of the traffic, and dont forget that KE is a major player in cargo, which would also turn the route attractive for them.

Rgs,
 
2travel2know
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:25 am

Talking about KE flying ICN-GRU via an U.S. airport, but what is the point if all passengers in transit must hold valid U.S. visas or be eligible for U.S. Visawaiver?
It would sure be a hassle for Brazilians and others who require visas to fly such a route. Look at what goes on w/ JL Brazilian flights.
And if one takes in consideration a possible stop in Mexico (most likely MEX, but with altitude issues overthere), nowadays México requires Brazilians visas too.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
EddieDude
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting MAS777 (Reply 14):
KE would do well to bring MH on as a partner for JNB (+ CPT if it wished).
KE and MH already code-share on the ICN-KUL route and KE's flight times arrive in excellent time to connect with MH's onward service to JNB and CPT.
If KE wanted to fly the route in its own right then a stopover in KUL would also bolster MH's service (should they code-share).

Begs the question as to exactly how long the other Skyteam partners would wait for AF's approval for MH's entry...

From many angles, MH is a perfect fit for SkyTeam. I really wonder how true the rumors that AF is blocking or delaying MH's acceptance really are (or, if true, what the reasons really are). The argument that, according to many a.netters, AF is unwilling to drop its lucrative partnership with QF to link France and Australia via SIN seems insufficient as a justification to block the entry to the alliance of a world-class carrier that will fill in a huge gap in the alliance's network.

There is one other thing that I have been wondering. DL used to have an agreement with MH for mileage accrual and redemption (no idea if the two codeshared as well or not), and suddenly the agreement was ended. I recall reading notices in a couple of Sky magazine issues of last year that the agreement was coming to an end and that flyers had until x date to accrue and redeem miles with MH. I do not think AF had anything to do with that.

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 18):
Already MEX, MIA, and IAH are "on order"

MEX was already served by KE, wasn't it? Was it served from LAX or YVR? I think AM would like to start MEX-XXX-ICN flights, but its shortage of 772ERs is a factor playing against them. I am sure that a codeshare service of AM and KE would be profitable. Only question is via where.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
bsbisland
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:46 am

I think ICN-LAX-GRU would be the best choice among the options they have. LAX traffic to/from Brazil is not so thin as some people think. A few years ago there were 2/3 daily flights on this route and now has none. To have a faster turnaround in GRU, KE could operate a dailight LAX-GRU returning 2 or 3 hours after and not parking the aircraft the whole day in GRU like it did in the past. And being the only one on the route, now with US Dollar very affordable for Brazilians, KE could make it work again, plus they could get many pax from Brazil to other places in Asia, specially connecting on their nonstop LAX-NRT flight.
 
hardiwv
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:59 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 32):
It would sure be a hassle for Brazilians and others who require visas to fly such a route. Look at what goes on w/ JL Brazilian flights.

Traffic Brazil-Asia via the US is almost back to pre-2001 level, since after you apply for a visa it is valid for 5 years. A lot of Brazil-Asia/Japan traffic now goes via IAH, DFW, ORD, ATL, JFK, etc.

JAL in particular (as you mentioned) is doing pretty well with quite good loads and yields in its 3 x week NRT-JFK-GRU - rumours point that the flight will be uped to 4 weekly in November/07.

Rgs,
 
HeeseokKoo
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 33):
MEX was already served by KE, wasn't it?

Not yet. It was last year or two years ago that KE says "Our next long haul destination is MEX" (not exactly this way but it was strong.)

Quoting BSBIsland (Reply 34):
To have a faster turnaround in GRU, KE could operate a dailight LAX-GRU returning 2 or 3 hours after and not parking the aircraft the whole day in GRU like it did in the past. ..... specially connecting on their nonstop LAX-NRT flight.

Hmm. LAX->GRU to be daylight flight.. That will surely make good connection to NRT from LAX. Can't wait to see how KE will do.
 
MAS777
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RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 33):
I really wonder how true the rumors that AF is blocking or delaying MH's acceptance really are

There is no rumour about this unfortunately...

One of the first things Idris Jala (current CEO of Malaysia Airlines) did when he tookover at the helm was to fly to Paris to negotiate with AF about MAS' entry into Skyteam. He returned to KUL and reported this to the Press so its come straight from the horse's mouth as it were...
 
incitatus
Posts: 2749
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 27):
I don't know what rough percentage of the range must be compromised in order to assure that the flight will reach the destination even if it goes through unexpected severe conditions during flight, but it cannot be that much, or can it? Does someone know how much is it normally? 10%?

The northern hemisphere has a jetstream that blows eastbound. Depending on time of the year and random factors it could hit the ground speed of an airplane by 10% or a bit more. If the flight is long, it can take a different route that avoids flying head on against the wind. But then the distance traveled will be longer. Plus there may be a few percentage points to shave off the standard range figure because the airline carries more weight in form of in-flight provisions or amenities, and because it works with larger fuel reserves than standard.

I regard the effective range of the 777-200ER as about 6500 miles w/o freight penalties for northern hemisphere westbound travel. Giving up freight Delta's Bombay-NewYork is at the limit 7800 miles. On bad days that flight may leave behind a dozen passengers (if full) or make an unscheduled stop. PTY-ICN is at 8820 miles, so it needs a 777LR.
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Viscount724
Posts: 19287
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:48 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 38):
The northern hemisphere has a jetstream that blows eastbound. Depending on time of the year and random factors it could hit the ground speed of an airplane by 10% or a bit more.



Winds can affect the groundspeed by 25% and often more. There is sometimes a difference of 2 hours between nonstop westbound and eastbound flight times on North Pacific routes (and many others) when winds are strong. A jetstream wind of 150 kts or more is not unusual.
 
C010T3
Posts: 1642
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB

Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:56 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 38):
The northern hemisphere has a jetstream that blows eastbound. Depending on time of the year and random factors it could hit the ground speed of an airplane by 10% or a bit more. If the flight is long, it can take a different route that avoids flying head on against the wind. But then the distance traveled will be longer. Plus there may be a few percentage points to shave off the standard range figure because the airline carries more weight in form of in-flight provisions or amenities, and because it works with larger fuel reserves than standard.

I regard the effective range of the 777-200ER as about 6500 miles w/o freight penalties for northern hemisphere westbound travel. Giving up freight Delta's Bombay-NewYork is at the limit 7800 miles. On bad days that flight may leave behind a dozen passengers (if full) or make an unscheduled stop. PTY-ICN is at 8820 miles, so it needs a 777LR.

Thank you for the explanation. I thought that the 8895 miles range with fully loaded aircraft was already the range giving up freight. But if you say that the BOM-JFK flight has problems sometimes...

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