777way
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Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:30 am

Cant Y class passengers be accomodated in both these sections and be given Y class service if there is no one travelling in the upper classes, or atleast J class, if F is too exclusive to even seat the crowd from Y in. Better than having the seats go empty more so if there are tons of Y class travellers who may have been rejected booking because Y is full, yet F and J are totally empty.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:34 am

US airlines will often move elite or high-fare Economy Class passengers into First and/or Business Class to make seats available for more Economy passengers to be accommodated in an overbook or irregular operation situation. I imagine some non-US airlines do so, as well...
 
pa201
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:41 am

First, I don't know of any airline that will bump or leave stranded a Y passenger if J or F have seats available. That practice just doesn't exist in the business, to my knowledge. Y class passengers will always be accomodated in empty premium seats in oversale situations.

Second, filling up J and F is a practice that does exist, with frequent flyer and corporate programs. Full Y passengers on many airlines qualify for premuim upgrades via many different schemes and programs. A good percentage of F and J travelers sitting in those cabins didn't pay for it - they were upgraded.

Last, as far as filling up the F and J cabins at time of departure, vs letting those seats go empty at take-off has many negative consequences for the airlines. It will send a signal to those that would be willing to pay for the service to buy a coach ticket in hopes of getting an upgrade - why buy full fare business if I can get upgraded if there is an empty seat ? Also, for those the *do* buy full fare F & J, they would grow to resent the practice of upgrading Y pax simply because the seat was open. They paid full fare, so why should they have to sit next to someone who didn't and simply played the "upgrade game" ? Would dilute the ailines yields in this cabin.

My two cents.

[Edited 2007-06-07 19:42:18]
 
777way
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:41 am

Shouldnt all do this rather than have those sections empty, actually I meant they should just seat Y class passengers in there without an upgrade, just to fill the plane up, no need for mileage points or anything else, all no special service either just regular Y class snacks or meals.
 
theginge
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:42 am

If Y class is overbooked and J class has seats then passengers will be moved forward rather than left behind. The people chosen to be moved forward are usually frequent flyers, executive card holders or they have bought a full fare Y ticket.
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:43 am

When AC operated 3 class service, if hypothetically there was 0 load in First Class, a light load in Executive Class, and an overbooking situation in Economy Class, periodically Executive Class would occupy the forward (fF) cabin, and Economy would occupy the mid (J) cabin and of the course the aft (Y) cabin. In an early configuration, the 767-200's were configured as 10F 48J 121Y, and under these circumstances would become 10J and 169Y.

Would suggest that Emirates having bucks to burn and a high end airline, would have little or no interest in intermingling cabins, should a last minute full revenue First Class customer show for the flight, and expect the consistent and proper level of service.

If there is an overbooking situation, as on all airlines, the proper protocol of upgrading would ensue.
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XJetflyer
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:49 am

The days of flying first class because of status are coming to an end. When I buy first class, I expect other first class people around me. I expect the others to be dressed in a decent manner. I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field. I think people pay good money to be there and yes it pisses me off when someone can get up there for a much cheaper rate!
 
777way
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:51 am

Thanks all, I dont know it was a norm in the industry to do so, but it still seems that there may never be a full F or J class with a Y crowd in it, not due to upgrade but over booking, imagine this on the higherr standard airlines with their ultra nice F class.

[Edited 2007-06-07 20:00:55]
 
aa2mm
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:00 am

I have been on AA int'l flights twice . When Y was overbooked and J was empty enough on one flight, they moved all the high FF up from Y to J and kept the J service in the J cabine...and one time, AA converted the whole J cabine into Y service to accomodate the overbooked Y pax ( and moved J paid pax to F cabine with J service ) !
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting 777way (Thread starter):
Cant Y class passengers be accomodated in both these sections and be given Y class service if there is no one travelling in the upper classes, or atleast J class, if F is too exclusive to even seat the crowd from Y in. Better than having the seats go empty more so if there are tons of Y class travellers who may have been rejected booking because Y is full, yet F and J are totally empty.

Two reason why not:

1. Dilution. Youd have fewer people paying for premium class. People would be able to "game the system" and gey a J or F class seat paying only Y. Top Tier FF flyers woudl be upgraded but not your average leisure traveller
2. Production Degrdation: The meal and the service is part of the product. Lets say that there are 10 meals loaded for J class and 24 seats. Some airlines wont allow any more than 10 pax in premium in that case. It is not an option to allow more pax into premium and serve them a coach meal.
 
777way
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:14 am

No I meant if there are no booking for F and J can the plane be filled with Y class passengers in both sections with Y class service, without an upgrade of any kind.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 9):
Two reason why not:

1. Dilution. Youd have fewer people paying for premium class. People would be able to "game the system" and gey a J or F class seat paying only Y. Top Tier FF flyers woudl be upgraded but not your average leisure traveller
2. Production Degrdation: The meal and the service is part of the product. Lets say that there are 10 meals loaded for J class and 24 seats. Some airlines wont allow any more than 10 pax in premium in that case. It is not an option to allow more pax into premium and serve them a coach meal.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 10):
No I meant if there are no booking for F and J can the plane be filled with Y class passengers in both sections with Y class service, without an upgrade of any kind.

I dont think so. The fly in my position is your scenario "No J or F class bookings" If that were the case I'd think it would be ok. If not, and I were product VP, I wouldnt want one pax sitting gettign a Y class meal, sitting next to another getting a J class meal.
 
777way
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:27 am

That is what I'm trying to get across that if there were no F or J bookings, in this situation can the whole plane be filled with Y classers and Y class meals, specifically on airlines that have superior F and J cabins.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 12):
That is what I'm trying to get across that if there were no F or J bookings, in this situation can the whole plane be filled with Y classers and Y class meals, specifically on airlines that have superior F and J cabins.

It's a silly question then, as this won't happen.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:09 am

It is indeed rare that J goes out empty, with Y class pax left behind.

On my recent trip to Canada (AC) last month, I was moved from Y to J, because Y was overbooked.

I have Star Alliance "Gold" Status, and that was the reason I got the upgrade.  


In all my years of flying (7), I've only been upgraded twice, the other occasion being from Y to J on UA, LHR - SFO - HNL, in 2003, again because of flight loads 

The other rime I flew in J (MAN - ORD - BNA - ORD - MAN) on BD / UA was a mileage redemption ticket.  



Lee

[Edited 2007-06-07 21:09:53]
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
goldorak
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:15 am

Nowadays, do you know a lot of flights with empty class ? Every single flight is crowded !!  crowded   Wink
 
CPH757
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:53 am

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):
The days of flying first class because of status are coming to an end. When I buy first class, I expect other first class people around me. I expect the others to be dressed in a decent manner. I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field. I think people pay good money to be there and yes it pisses me off when someone can get up there for a much cheaper rate!

Well, I respect that you would not like crying babies around you, but just because people pay less than you, it pisses you off? Well, you pay what you value the product I assume, else you wouldn't buy it. The same does the other guy, and your product is the same. In the end it the best way for the airline to do the business, and secure you the best F price as well.

It pretty funny irrational behaviour, but well, people would in fact rather like a 100 sqm house than a 150 sqm house as long as theirs are bigger than the neighbors house. Mankind is great Big grin
Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting PA201 (Reply 2):
Second, filling up J and F is a practice that does exist, with frequent flyer and corporate programs. Full Y passengers on many airlines qualify for premuim upgrades via many different schemes and programs. A good percentage of F and J travelers sitting in those cabins didn't pay for it - they were upgraded.

This practice only really exists in North America on North American flights. That is, it is formalized only there AFAIK. In Europe you may get lucky but a free seat in F or J does not mean an automatic upgrade for a frequent flyer in Y.

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):
The days of flying first class because of status are coming to an end. When I buy first class, I expect other first class people around me. I expect the others to be dressed in a decent manner. I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field. I think people pay good money to be there and yes it pisses me off when someone can get up there for a much cheaper rate!

I don't think they are coming to an end at all. No programs have changed recently AFAIK. They all allow complimentary upgrades for frequent flyers if the higher class has space.

What about those of us whose company spent tens of thousands of dollars on Y travel with the airline. Are we not entitled to an upgrade? We also "paid good money". After all, we keep the airline in business just as much as you. If the airline wants to give me the upgrade, that's fine.

I've seen Mr Greasy hands in F, J and Y class sitting there quietly. I've also seen Mr Decent Dresser behave like a drunken a-hole. The latter occurs far more often than the former.

Quoting 777way (Reply 3):
Shouldnt all do this rather than have those sections empty, actually I meant they should just seat Y class passengers in there without an upgrade, just to fill the plane up, no need for mileage points or anything else, all no special service either just regular Y class snacks or meals.



Quoting 777way (Reply 12):
That is what I'm trying to get across that if there were no F or J bookings, in this situation can the whole plane be filled with Y classers and Y class meals, specifically on airlines that have superior F and J cabins.

No. The booking system only has so many seats in Y. Even if the F and J cabin are empty the day before departure, that won' mean they won't be booked. Many F and J travelers book at the last minute.

If this were a good strategy you could be that the airlines would use it.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
stlgph
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):

My money's just as green as yours.
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XJetflyer
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
What about those of us whose company spent tens of thousands of dollars on Y travel with the airline. Are we not entitled to an upgrade? We also "paid good money". After all, we keep the airline in business just as much as you. If the airline wants to give me the upgrade, that's fine.

I've seen Mr Greasy hands in F, J and Y class sitting there quietly. I've also seen Mr Decent Dresser behave like a drunken a-hole. The latter occurs far more often than the former.

If your company wants to fly first class then pay for it! Also greasy hands are common in my business, but I do not pay top dollar to smell grease sitting near me and my wife after spending top dollar!

Quoting STLGph (Reply 18):
My money's just as green as yours.

Yes this is true, then you should get what you pay for!
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting PA201 (Reply 2):
It will send a signal to those that would be willing to pay for the service to buy a coach ticket in hopes of getting an upgrade - why buy full fare business if I can get upgraded if there is an empty seat ?

 checkmark  A signal that the U.S. legacies have conveyed loud and clear to "elite" members of their caste systems, which has predictably spawned a growing subculture of FFFs (frequent flyer freeloaders) who expect to sit in F for no charge beyond the cheap loss-leader coach fares they typically pay. Some even presume themselves to be entitled to be upraded to F for free when traveling on free saver coach award tickets.

Besides the revenue drain resulting from the "why pay to fly in F or J" mindset created by the legacies' FFF pay-coach-sit-in-first-class giveaway schemes, the games promoted by same turn many "elite" FFFs into maintenance-intensive (read high co$t) customers who expect even more for free than the largess to which they are entitled while typically paying bottom-end coach fares (read low yield) -- when not flying for free on saver award tickets.

As with any something-for-nothing giveaway program, demands for freebies continue to increase while the ability of the parasite host (in this case, the U.S. legacy airlines) to absorb the costs of their largess continues to decrease relative to the costs of their giveaway programs. Which is the corner into which the U.S. legacy airlines continue to paint themselves more deeply.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 19):

If your company wants to fly first class then pay for it! Also greasy hands are common in my business, but I do not pay top dollar to smell grease sitting near me and my wife after spending top dollar!

Oh do get off your high horse. The airline decided it could make more money with a big FF program and by giving perks. If you don't like it, take your business elsewhere.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
asuflyer05
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:34 pm

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):
The days of flying first class because of status are coming to an end. When I buy first class, I expect other first class people around me. I expect the others to be dressed in a decent manner. I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field. I think people pay good money to be there and yes it pisses me off when someone can get up there for a much cheaper rate!

I know it's elitist but still I agree completely. Why would I waste my hard earned dollars paying for an enhanced experience when the guy next to me is getting the same seat for $99. And who cares coach versus first meals. It's all the same microwaved crap. Unless it's like cereal or the chicken sandwich on CO, I don't eat it at all.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
What about those of us whose company spent tens of thousands of dollars on Y travel with the airline. Are we not entitled to an upgrade? We also "paid good money". After all, we keep the airline in business just as much as you. If the airline wants to give me the upgrade, that's fine.

Yes your company pays good money for you to sit in coach. You get what you pay for, or what they pay for in this case.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
I've seen Mr Greasy hands in F, J and Y class sitting there quietly. I've also seen Mr Decent Dresser behave like a drunken a-hole. The latter occurs far more often than the former.

I disagree. I'm not saying Mr. Greasy doesn't end up in F next to the drunk prick. But at least the drunk has a collared shirt on versus the drunk in coach with his NASCAR tank top and back hair hanging out.
 
andaman
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):
The days of flying first class because of status are coming to an end. When I buy first class, I expect other first class people around me. I expect the others to be dressed in a decent manner. I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field. I think people pay good money to be there and yes it pisses me off when someone can get up there for a much cheaper rate!

But J & C class tickets don't always promise good manners and clean hands either, I've noticed...
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PA110
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:56 pm

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):
I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field

What a pompous and elitist post. Some contract oil workers make huge salaries, and can easily afford a First Class fare. If you don't like it, there's always private/fractional jet ownership to insulate you and your darling wife from the great unwashed masses.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
adriaticus
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:01 pm

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 22):
Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):
The days of flying first class because of status are coming to an end. When I buy first class, I expect other first class people around me. I expect the others to be dressed in a decent manner. I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field. I think people pay good money to be there and yes it pisses me off when someone can get up there for a much cheaper rate!

I know it's elitist but still I agree completely. Why would I waste my hard earned dollars paying for an enhanced experience when the guy next to me is getting the same seat for $99. And who cares coach versus first meals. It's all the same microwaved crap. Unless it's like cereal or the chicken sandwich on CO, I don't eat it at all.

Oh, knock the elitist BS off... Fact is, 99% of F and J pax did not pay their tickets out of their own pockets... Why all this snobbish rubbish? If your employer, or even your own company is paying for your ticket (making it tax-deductible), you should be thankful to have enough elbowroom and legroom to open your laptop or snooze relaxedly, complimentary booze and three-course meals, all in your own seat, and stop minding the 100K-miles-a-year folk who got a seat next to you thanks to his FF status...

Geez, if you're flying in a paid J, C or F ticket, sooner or later you yourself will become a FF upgrader too, and then you won't like to be turned down and sent back to cattle class...

What goes around, comes around.

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tootallsd
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:08 pm

When I pay for a coach ticket and upgrade with mileage, I feel that I have made an economic transaction with the airline that is equivalent to a fullf are business class / first class passenger by the airlines design. I see no difference.

I earned those points by showing loyalty and buying their airline's product over and over and over again. They are rewarding me for that loyalty in the same way that they reward people that buy the product outright with superior service.

If you are upgrading with points, those of us that do this know that you can not earn enough points in a flight to upgrade all the time. The ratio is more like 5:1.

But I hate the indiscriminate, uncivilized and inexperienced passengers that crop up from time to time and frankly unless they paid for the privilege they belong in the back or waiting in the lounge as the plane leaves if there is an over-booking. Summer travel season is upon us and it is time for the unaccompanied minors (from homes with no discipline) to come out of the woordwork, time for mom to show up with all her luggage as carryon with a baby in tow, demanding to know why she can't bring the carseat onboard, time for the mom to carry the infant in her lap, change the diaper on the meal table and then throw the soiled diaper under the seat, time for the yokels to on on their first flight (at age 30 something) with bring on board lunchbox with god knows what being dripped all over the cabin, time for the teenage girl riding on daddie's miles to ring the call button for the 14th time and when the FA explains that she is there for safety and to serve all customers to hear the child tell her that she is there to serve her and she should do it now.

I'd really wish someone would come up with an airline that had racks instead of seats. That we would be knocked out for the flight and reduce this pain to an acceptable level.

Yes I know I sound grumpy, so what!
 
asuflyer05
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:13 pm

Quoting PA110 (Reply 24):

What a pompous and elitist post. Some contract oil workers make huge salaries, and can easily afford a First Class fare. If you don't like it, there's always private/fractional jet ownership to insulate you and your darling wife from the great unwashed masses.

I think you took his post literally. For the most part there is a difference in the class of people who fly first versus coach. And I believe what XJETFlyer and I were attempting to point out.

Let's face it, your average K-Mart shopper doesn't have the disposable income to fly first class. And while I agree income does not always equal sophisitcation, it's rare to find Joe Blow stuffing his plastic shopping bag full of clothes in the overhead in first class. And if you disagree with us you only fly first out of LAS or MCO, or you only fly Southwest.
 
georgebush
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:18 pm

Quoting Tootallsd (Reply 26):
I'd really wish someone would come up with an airline that had racks instead of seats. That we would be knocked out for the flight and reduce this pain to an acceptable level.

You remind me of Rose's Mom in the movie Titanic.
Al Gore invented global warming.
 
asuflyer05
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:20 pm

Quoting Adriaticus (Reply 25):
Oh, knock the elitist BS off... Fact is, 99% of F and J pax did not pay their tickets out of their own pockets... Why all this snobbish rubbish? If your employer, or even your own company is paying for your ticket (making it tax-deductible), you should be thankful to have enough elbowroom and legroom to open your laptop or snooze relaxedly, complimentary booze and three-course meals, all in your own seat, and stop minding the 100K-miles-a-year folk who got a seat next to you thanks to his FF status...

What's the problem with being elitist? I don't care how you paid for the ticket, or who paid for it, my point is it degrades the product when you have in-frequent flyers up there who are traveling on $99 x-country fares and getting upgraded when some guy or his company paid $1300 for him to have a little extra square footage. It's one thing to have an Elite FF or a Full-Y fare upgrade, but that's not what we're discussing here. The topic at hand is in regards to Y pax being upgraded to F and J seats if they are empty. Not Y-UP fare upgrades, mileage upgrades, and EUA upgrades. Just regular Joe Blow's being moved up because there are empty seats.

Quoting Tootallsd (Reply 26):
But I hate the indiscriminate, uncivilized and inexperienced passengers that crop up from time to time and frankly unless they paid for the privilege they belong in the back or waiting in the lounge as the plane leaves if there is an over-booking. Summer travel season is upon us and it is time for the unaccompanied minors (from homes with no discipline) to come out of the woordwork, time for mom to show up with all her luggage as carryon with a baby in tow, demanding to know why she can't bring the carseat onboard, time for the mom to carry the infant in her lap, change the diaper on the meal table and then throw the soiled diaper under the seat, time for the yokels to on on their first flight (at age 30 something) with bring on board lunchbox with god knows what being dripped all over the cabin, time for the teenage girl riding on daddie's miles to ring the call button for the 14th time and when the FA explains that she is there for safety and to serve all customers to hear the child tell her that she is there to serve her and she should do it now.

I'm fine with elites getting upgrade to F on coach fares. They generally know how to function on an airplane; know how to pack into a 22" Hartmann suitcase; and can travel without those annoying blowup pillows and face masks. Not to mention they also don't clap on landing.

And for the record, the only reclining leather seat with XM entertainment my company paid for was the front seat of my company car. Air travel was never part of my job so I always paid for it out of my pocket.
 
american762
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting PA110 (Reply 24):
What a pompous and elitist post. Some contract oil workers make huge salaries, and can easily afford a First Class fare. If you don't like it, there's always private/fractional jet ownership to insulate you and your darling wife from the great unwashed masses.


Beautifully said. I agree entirely.

The only gripe I have is dress code. I would appreciate if the guy next to me in F or J wasn't wearing a tank top and mesh shorts...which I've had before, but it would not change my mind about flying in F or J. Just my 2 Cents.

[Edited 2007-06-08 13:51:47]
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bennett123
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:09 pm

Something I have always wondered is why the curtains between classes are closed at meal time.

Is it that Business/First all get champagne/Caviar or is that they get little better than economy.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:15 pm

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 22):
Yes your company pays good money for you to sit in coach. You get what you pay for, or what they pay for in this case.

The airlines decide on upgrade policies. Am I supposed to decline upgrades offered to me because I feel I didn't deserve them? If the airline feels that 125000 miles flown in a year entitles me to free complimentary upgrades, I won't say no.

I don't understand why you have a problem with the pax being upgraded. If you don't like the policy, you should complain to the airline. At which point you'll be gently told that you benefit from the FF program as well.

Quite frankly, I have very rarely experienced Mr Greasy Hands in F. Mostly everyone just sits there quietly and minds their own business.

It's public transportation. It won't always be perfect. That's life! Deal with it!
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ORDagent
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:24 am

RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:15 pm

If you keep on giving away a product it dilutes the value and makes it harder to sell pure and simple. Why pay for a premium cabin if as I have a chance of a free upgrade? Having part of the cabin getting Y service and the rest J service is a logistical and service nightmare. When I was an international CSR for AA at ORD if my intl long hall was oversold we looked for platinum and or full Y pax to upgrade if we were overbooked in Y and had no choice as it was the only departure to that city out of ORD. Even if you were a platinum pax and were dressed in a slovenly manner you were passed over. Once I needed to upgrade an oversold flight to MAN and I didn't have enough elite FQTV pax so I found a nice couple of elderly pax that were dressed up all nice and tidy. I approached them at the gate check in line and asked to see their tickets. The got all nervous as they thought there was a problem. A couple of minutes later I cam back with boarding passes. The wife started to tear up as they had just had a trip of a lifetime and were greatful to have it end on such a high note. It's one of my favorite memories from my tenure with AA.
 
bennett123
Posts: 7530
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:58 pm

You are talking about the chance of a free upgrade.

You could try it several times and no upgrade. At what point do you decide that the benefits are worth paying for, and get yourself a guaranteed Business/First class seat.

Personally, I always go economy. Except Business coming back from Cairo and that was due to no availability in Economy. Finally, no I have never had, or sought an upgrade.

Besides how do you know what price the guy next to you paid.
 
asuflyer05
Posts: 2058
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:53 am

RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 32):
I don't understand why you have a problem with the pax being upgraded. If you don't like the policy, you should complain to the airline. At which point you'll be gently told that you benefit from the FF program as well.

Maybe the OP and I failed to articulate well enough in our posts, because clearly everyone has missed some key points we made.

Quoting 777way (Reply 3):
I meant they should just seat Y class passengers in there without an upgrade, just to fill the plane up, no need for mileage points or anything else, all no special service either just regular Y class snacks or meals.



Quoting 777way (Reply 10):
No I meant if there are no booking for F and J can the plane be filled with Y class passengers in both sections with Y class service, without an upgrade of any kind.



Quoting 777way (Reply 12):
That is what I'm trying to get across that if there were no F or J bookings, in this situation can the whole plane be filled with Y classers and Y class meals, specifically on airlines that have superior F and J cabins.



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 29):
I'm fine with elites getting upgrade to F on coach fares. They generally know how to function on an airplane; know how to pack into a 22" Hartmann suitcase; and can travel without those annoying blowup pillows and face masks. Not to mention they also don't clap on landing.



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 29):
It's one thing to have an Elite FF or a Full-Y fare upgrade, but that's not what we're discussing here. The topic at hand is in regards to Y pax being upgraded to F and J seats if they are empty. Not Y-UP fare upgrades, mileage upgrades, and EUA upgrades. Just regular Joe Blow's being moved up because there are empty seats.
 
XJetflyer
Posts: 148
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:12 am

I think some on here are not getting my point! It's not about being better than someone else. The airlines have screwed the people willing to pay for a better atmosphere in my opinion. Sure there are people who get upgrades who are great clean people who appreciate the chance to be there. There are also rich people who pay for the seats at top dollar that are complete pains in the rear and dress like crap. That has nothing to do with what i'm saying.

I just think that if your charging me top dollar, then damn it I want everyone else around me paying the same or real close!
I don't care how many business flights you have with your company. If you want the upgrade you need to pay for it. This has nothing to do with your support. If you must have a treat for flying so much and keeping that airline flying, maybe the airline should give you a cookie.

What happen to the day of you got what you pay for? I also think the dress code on flights has gone out the window. Jeans are fine with me, but must there be holes in the crouch area and rear area? Call me a stuck up person if you must. I'm a hard working blue collar who treats himself better then most. I come from the school of work hard and play hard.

I just believe there should be no upgrades to first class.
 
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lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 12051
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RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:50 am

The #1 complaint I hear from my traveling is the lack of availability of J seats.

To India
Asia. Especially Japan and China.

So this issue cannot be that common...
I never hear of airlines actually leaving Y on the tarmac with empty F or J... never.

Quoting PA201 (Reply 2):
Would dilute the ailines yields in this cabin.

 checkmark 

Yield in Y is gone. Shall we cut J?

Quoting Theginge (Reply 4):
The people chosen to be moved forward are usually frequent flyers, executive card holders or they have bought a full fare Y ticket.

Exactly. Joe Sixpack and his $300/rt fare shouldn't expect that service. I certainly do not. (Just flew too from Hawaii "back in Y.")

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 5):
should a last minute full revenue First Class customer show for the flight, and expect the consistent and proper level of service.

 checkmark 

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 15):
Nowadays, do you know a lot of flights with empty class ? Every single flight is crowded !!

 rotfl 

Yea... the "This is a full flight" announcement is the norm now...

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 19):
Quoting STLGph (Reply 18):
My money's just as green as yours.

Yes this is true, then you should get what you pay for!

So true.
 Wink

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 31):
Something I have always wondered is why the curtains between classes are closed at meal time.

So we in Y are left with the impression that those in F and J don't need to pee.  Wink

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
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falstaff
Posts: 5593
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 am

RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):
I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field.

Some mechanics make great money. If he paid the fare, The airline isn't going to turn him away. I once sat next to a man in F on TWA STL-YYZ and he had a muscle shirt and jeans on. He was a roofer going to visit a friend and he said he never flew before and wanted to do it right. He paid his money and was treated the same as everyone else. I had a tie on, but was flying free, using one of my dad's FF tickets. Which of us was better? TWA probably liked the muscle shirt guy better because he paid.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 24):
What a pompous and elitist post. Some contract oil workers make huge salaries, and can easily afford a First Class fare. If you don't like it, there's always private/fractional jet ownership to insulate you and your darling wife from the great unwashed masses

Next time I fly I will remind that guy that us mechanics make the world keep working.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
Theoden
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:53 am

RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting PA201 (Reply 2):
First, I don't know of any airline that will bump or leave stranded a Y passenger if J or F have seats available.

I saw NW do this recently, but there were only a couple of seats available in C and it was oversold in Y by 30. Two C seats went to non-revs and one went empty.

Theoden
Fear no darkness!
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:16 am

Quoting 777way (Thread starter):
Better than having the seats go empty more so if there are tons of Y class travellers who may have been rejected booking because Y is full, yet F and J are totally empty.

As said, it's rare for the airline to leave pax behind rather than fill the seat. That has been covered.

Quoting PA201 (Reply 2):
It will send a signal to those that would be willing to pay for the service to buy a coach ticket in hopes of getting an upgrade - why buy full fare business if I can get upgraded if there is an empty seat ?

True. It's hte wrong message to send. BUt different irlines deal wiht empty J seats i various ways. On a few AA flights, I've seen them do last minute paid upgrades to a J seat but with Y service. not a bad way to garner a get extra bucks while still taking care of those Y class oversales.

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 29):
The topic at hand is in regards to Y pax being upgraded to F and J seats if they are empty

....not if they are empty but only if they are empty and Y is oversold.

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 33):
The wife started to tear up as they had just had a trip of a lifetime and were greatful to have it end on such a high note. It's one of my favorite memories from my tenure with AA.

Great story ORDAgent. It's that extrAAordinary service that used to keep me flying with AA. But as the ability to use my AAdvantage miles decreases (due to fare buckets), so does my loyalty.

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 36):
I just think that if your charging me top dollar, then damn it I want everyone else around me paying the same or real close!

Just a childish rant is what that is. IMO you do not understand the original purpose of the loyalty programs. But you're just upset that others have paid in ways other than you.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 17212
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 34):
You could try it several times and no upgrade. At what point do you decide that the benefits are worth paying for, and get yourself a guaranteed Business/First class seat.

True, but if you are top tier with, say, AA, your chances of a domestic upgrade are north of 80% in my guesstimation. The exception being last minute bookings.

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 35):

Maybe the OP and I failed to articulate well enough in our posts, because clearly everyone has missed some key points we made.

Fair enough. I agree with you that upgrades should not occur just because there is space in F. Either pay or have status.

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 36):
The airlines have screwed the people willing to pay for a better atmosphere in my opinion

I'll agree with you there. But ironically the pax also seem to love the FF system that is now screwing them. Said FF program also makes money for the airline, so they aren't likely to stop the upgrades. maybe there should be a "Premier First", AKA "Upgrades won't get you in here; you actually have to pay".

And I'll still take the free upgrade, even if I am wearing jeans. Don't worry, I know how to behave in "polite society".
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
XJetflyer
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:40 am

RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:08 am

Once again, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST MECHANICS! I was using it as example. Hell it could be anyone sitting next to you.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13812
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 31):
Something I have always wondered is why the curtains between classes are closed at meal time.

To prevent people from walking through to use the front toilet during meal service, mostly.

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 36):
I don't care how many business flights you have with your company. If you want the upgrade you need to pay for it. This has nothing to do with your support. If you must have a treat for flying so much and keeping that airline flying, maybe the airline should give you a cookie.

I bet the F/As love you and your attitude.

Just a clue, not all people who pay for F are paying top dollar. There are multiple F fares. There are F sales. Should airlines stop that, too?

The problem with your premise is that if this were to happen, there would be no F cabin at all. An airline can't afford to have a plane with 12F seats and sell 10 on one flight, but then sell 1-4 on 3 other flights. Flying 2-11 empty F seats around is pointless.

So airlines came up with a way of keeping F relatively full of the most vital fliers:

Those who pay full F
Those who pay discount F
Those who's company has a contract
Those who are loyal and use points to upgrade or earn an award
Those who are very loyal and are offered the seat for "free" so that the airline can then sell ANOTHER Y seat at a high yield.

If they didn't do this, F would be gone. Period. End of story.

If you don't want to deal with us unwashed masses, rent a jet.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:09 pm

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):
When I buy first class, I expect other first class people around me. I expect the others to be dressed in a decent manner. I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field. I think people pay good money to be there and yes it pisses me off when someone can get up there for a much cheaper rate!

Hello you... Big grin Need to start considering buying that Gulfstream..

When I worked in the airlines, many flights left without first being full. Many times, first was not catered to its capacity, therefore upgrading people and having them eat Y meals, while the other F/C passengers enjoy normal F/C perks would have been a bit tricky, drama the F/C attendant really does not need.

But as mentioned during overbookings, Y passengers are upgraded. This upgrade was usually based on FFs, Y fare holders, or simply in my case as a CSA/Super I also chose passengers that were pleasant and dressed well. (no flaming please, that was the criteria I used.. Big grin )

If the flight is not overbooked, everyone's comfortable and cosy in their assigned seats, I make sure airline staff gets a good seat up front. After all airline staff work very hard, these are a few of the privileges they enjoy for their hard work.
There is something special about planes....
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:16 pm

Quoting Adriaticus (Reply 25):
Fact is, 99% of F and J pax did not pay their tickets out of their own pockets...

Trust me, I'm not that special.  Smile Lots of people pay for F/J travel out of pocket.

I gave up travelling coach for all but fairly short hops a couple of years ago...I'd done it for years but I'm just not interested in it anymore.

Steve
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?

Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:20 pm

why? Because all those a.nutters who want to get a free ride in first class because their daddy works for "their airline".
I wish I were flying

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