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SQ773
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Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:24 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:41 am

Just a rumour, but seems to be very likely.

LH will start flying non stop to EZE from October 5 days a week. The other 2 days via GRU. At the moment no specification of which days of the week it will be.

As from April 2008, the flight will go daily ( non stop. )

The FRA - EZE flight will probably be a daylight flight, whereas the return flight would depart EZE at 21.00 hrs aprox.

That is good news for both EZE and for GRU . Seems to be that despite the increase of capacity ex GRU with the MUC flight, it is still not enough for the brazil- german market .

As for EZE, needless to say anything...IMO it was not a wise movement to make this flight stop at GRU.

Cheers

SQ773
 
AF086
Posts: 506
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:45 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
Seems to be that despite the increase of capacity ex GRU with the MUC flight, it is still not enough for the brazil- german market .

Indeed. GIG is still left outside of the network.

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
IMO it was not a wise movement to make this flight stop at GRU.

True. The old FRA-EZE-SCL flight had great loads and the GRU stop made pax look elsewhere for their flights to Europe and beyond.
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
LH506
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 9:48 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:56 am

LH must be planning something for SA. I heard earlier, that BOG will come back and that GIG and LIM will be adds to the CCS/GRU flights. Now with the rumor that EZE will be Non-Stop again, the FRA-GRU flights can be extended to GIG 5 times a week. I read somewhere here that the MUC-GRU will stay daylight, so they cannot use it for GIG.
Let´s wait if these are just rumours.
NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 77L 788 300B2 300B4 345 359 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:20 am

If this rumor is true, I wonder if LH will resume flights to SCL with its own aircraft. In the past, LH nonstop flights to EZE continued to SCL. Will these new nonstop flights terminate in EZE?

Quoting LH506 (Reply 2):
the FRA-GRU flights can be extended to GIG

Isn't there enough demand for LH to offer nonstop FRA-GIG flights? RG flies nonstop from FRA to GIG with 767s. LH could offer better service on larger aircraft.
 
AF086
Posts: 506
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:45 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 3):
I wonder if LH will resume flights to SCL with its own aircraft. In the past, LH nonstop flights to EZE continued to SCL. Will these new nonstop flights terminate in EZE?

Guess that LH is satisfied with the SCL operations (flown by parter airline LX via GRU)

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 3):
Isn't there enough demand for LH to offer nonstop FRA-GIG flights?

Yes

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 3):
RG flies nonstop from FRA to GIG with 767s. LH could offer better service on larger aircraft.

Actually RG's nonstop to FRA will begin next friday (June 16th). LH could offer a better service on larger aircraft and a better timing also. The FRA-GIG's leg departure time is awful, it's schedules to leave FRA at 0630LT IIRC arriving at GIG at 1430LT (IIRC again) which is not good for connections in each one of the ends of the route.
And the Brazil - Europe market is booming these days and the GIG - Europe market is severely underserved so LH could profit from this situation.
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
LH526
Crew
Posts: 1960
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2000 2:23 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:32 am

 highfive  YES, bring back the old LH526 flight!

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
The FRA - EZE flight will probably be a daylight flight

DAYLIGHT? LH526 wasa pure night flight departing FRA in the evening and arriving in EZE in the morning ... why make it a Daylight flight? Utter BS in my oppinion!

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
As for EZE, needless to say anything...IMO it was not a wise movement to make this flight stop at
GRU.

Right!! Nuff said!

Mario
LH526
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
dalca
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:36 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:44 am

LH going non-stop to EZE would be great on all behalfs, i don't see it ging as a daylight flight as the early morning arrival is very welcome. Going onwards to SCL would also be very welcome. Good chances it would be a A340-600 like the LH526 was to SCL.
FRA-GIG has not been discussed as fas as I know and won't be back for a while. With LH having signed the deal with TAM i think all pax will be routed via GRI and then onwards on TAM to GIG and other destinations.
Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
 
argento
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 1:44 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
The FRA - EZE flight will probably be a daylight flight, whereas the return flight would depart EZE at 21.00 hrs approx.

Old LH 526 schedule was perfect for business travelers , departing FRA at 22 arriving EZE around 8 am , and going back to FRA around 16 30 arriving FRA at 10 am . That made possible to take any kind of connection thru Europe and Asia (sometimes with star partners) that left FRA around 13 or 14 hr.
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting LH526 (Reply 5):
DAYLIGHT? LH526 wasa pure night flight departing FRA in the evening and arriving in EZE in the morning ... why make it a Daylight flight?

No to have the aircraft sit in EZE for the better part of the day in case LH decides not to bring back the SCL tag and make the flight an EZE terminator. KLM has been studying the introduction of a similar flight to EZE. A 10am Europe departure would result in something like a 2-3pm arrival, good enough to make almost complete Europe connectivity possible. If IB can make such a daylight operation work, then why would LH not be able to do the same?
 
dalca
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:36 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:16 am

LH relies a lot on transfer passangers from all over the LH network for this flight and IMHO a late night departure is the best suited for this.
Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting DALCA (Reply 9):
LH relies a lot on transfer passangers from all over the LH network for this flight and IMHO a late night departure is the best suited for this.

If LH wants to operate nonstop to EZE it has to be red-eye. I think that a daylight leg would be worse off than the stop in GRU.

Something is cooking in LH regarding South America. The recent agreements with TAM and TACA point towards a move back to the region which LH has been neglecting over recent years, except for GRU where LH-LX continues to have a firm grip.

Brazil-Germany market will have a shake up and LH needs to react. RG will introduce its second daily FRA flights, now GIG-FRA, while TAM is awaiting negotiations in the agreement to start its own flight.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:11 am

Should be good news for EZE and Germany and seems that LH learn the lesson... cannot handle markets like EZE with stops! AF use to say thank you LH for this  Smile

Quoting DALCA (Reply 6):
FRA-GIG has not been discussed as fas as I know and won't be back for a while. With LH having signed the deal with TAM i think all pax will be routed via GRI and then onwards on TAM to GIG and other destinations.

So it will stay the same, pax will keep using AF, IB, UX, TP services as it's really better to do a connection in Europe.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 3):
Isn't there enough demand for LH to offer nonstop FRA-GIG flights? RG flies nonstop from FRA to GIG with 767s. LH could offer better service on larger aircraft.

For your info, the GIG-FRA RG flight was launched a couple weeks ago for " immediate " begin on June 16. Be aware that the June 17 and June 18 GIG-FRA flights (sunday & monday), departing Rio at 12:05 PM keep 0C and 1C available. And again 2 weeks being sold...
You can find seats on C for the night flight...

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
RJ_Delta
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:44 am

Well I hope if this romours is true that Lufthansa return to SCL via EZE. Although LH is satisfied with the SCL operations with LX, a lot of people want that LH returns to offer direct flight to Germany. Most people preferred others carriers as Air France, Iberia or LAN to more direct to Europe from SCL.
 
jfk777
Posts: 5863
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:42 am

It would make sense for LH to fly nonstop to Argentina, again, since the economy their has recovered. Why they didn't go nonstop with a A340 I never understood.
 
s.p.a.s.
Posts: 916
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2001 2:04 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:03 am

I have it from a very reliable source (inside DLH) that indeed they will operated FRA-EZE non-stop next winter (northern hemisphere)

Operating times to be confirmed, though

RS
"ad astra per aspera"
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:58 pm

Quoting DALCA (Reply 9):
LH relies a lot on transfer passangers from all over the LH network for this flight and IMHO a late night departure is the best suited for this.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 10):
If LH wants to operate nonstop to EZE it has to be red-eye. I think that a daylight leg would be worse off than the stop in GRU.

I don't buy the argument that there wouldn't be enough feed for a 10am FRA departure as compared to a 10pm FRA departure. At 10am, which is incidentally LH's first intercontinental departure wave of the day, which carries traffic to virtually every corner of the world, there is connectivity from most if not all over Europe, so the argument that connectivity would be better at 10pm is flawed in so many respects.

What may be the case, indeed, is that a daylight operation may attract a passenger mix that is somewhat less premium configured than an overnight departure. Nevertheles, one of the problems of the previous nonstop FRA EZE service was the lack of premium passengers, even for the double overnight service, hence the downgrade of B744 to a 2-class A346. I wouldn't be surprised at all if LH again deploys the 2-class A346 and decides to pay off the lower yielding traffic with increased utilization, achieved by an immediate turn around.

Again, both KLM and Air France have been very successful in their daylight operations to South America, while Iberia has been operating a daylight MAD EZE rotation for as long as I can remember. KLM has also been studying the possibility of a nonstop AMS EZE flight, which would equally operate as a southbound daylight sector.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:54 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 15):
What may be the case, indeed, is that a daylight operation may attract a passenger mix that is somewhat less premium configured than an overnight departure.

This is my pointt, while I agree with you regarding connectivity. What I said is that if LH wants to reinstate EZE nonstop it needs to be red-eye so as to compete with AF.

In my view LH could operate red-eye in EZE and increase the utilisation factor of the aircraft by adoption the old route FRA-EZE-SCL. This would also mean a capacity increase of LX in GRU since the flight would terminate there - and in this sense I would think that LX could rotate operating ZRH-GRU-GIG. LH B747 FRA-GRU (without the EZE leg could continue to GIG). However, if LH-LX decide to operate in GIG via GRU again it will not offer adequate competition to AF's two daily nonstop flights.

LH/LX once and for all need to decide whether they want to invest in South America or not. Given the current market configuration this means at least EZE and GIG nonstop and red-eye. Nothing less than that will mean LH is not competitive and it will fail in the region as in the past. LH also needs a new destination and in my view LIM is in the cards.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 15):
Again, both KLM and Air France have been very successful in their daylight operations to South America

Only in markets with 1) limited competition or considerable low-yield traffic, i.e. LIM; 2) bulk traffic both high and low yield, i.e. GRU, GIG.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 15):
KLM has also been studying the possibility of a nonstop AMS EZE flight, which would equally operate as a southbound daylight sector

I dont think KL will go back to EZE. I dont see in EZE a market which would allow for dual operations AF-KL. I think AF will keep its single daily flight upgrading to bigger equipment. In future (2008) EZE will get AF second flight. I think we can expect KL to open REC with A330.

Rgs,
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:32 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
In my view LH could operate red-eye in EZE and increase the utilisation factor of the aircraft by adoption the old route FRA-EZE-SCL.

The problem with that setup seems to be that it has failed for LH in the past. Is the current market situation so much different from when LH flew this routing not so long ago? Other than that the one-stop EZE model has likely failed even more miserably, I don't see too much difference. As such, I think LH's reasoning is to give the EZE station another shot at a nonstop flight, while trying to improve the financial performance by doing away with the expensive tag, which involves a crew change and 2 extra cycles, and reinforcing utilization rates for the aircraft involved.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
Only in markets with 1) limited competition or considerable low-yield traffic

I think Europe-Argentina fits that description. Premium demand between Europe and Buenos Aires is not what it is often cracked up to be, which is incidentally one of the reasons BA let go of its nonstop EZE flights a couple of years go. Even AF is having trouble filling up the front cabins and is often doing so by overbooking the back of the truck. EZE is among the AF stations with the highest opup rates in the system. At AF, GRU far outperforms EZE in terms of premium demand. So, indeed, I do believe that EZE is actually lower yielding than many believe.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
I dont think KL will go back to EZE. I dont see in EZE a market which would allow for dual operations AF-KL. I think AF will keep its single daily flight upgrading to bigger equipment. In future (2008) EZE will get AF second flight.

AF had planned a capacity upgrade to B77W for CDG EZE starting next winter, but has since withdrawn that plan. The flight will just operate as a daily terminator with B772ER. There also seem to be problems pertaining to the BASA in terms of additional frequencies on this route for AF. Apparently, AF is, at least right now precluded from adding Argentina frequencies, which is one of the reasons KLM, which still holds Argentina route authority, looked into the possibility of adding AMS EZE.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2713
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
For your info, the GIG-FRA RG flight was launched a couple weeks ago for " immediate " begin on June 16. Be aware that the June 17 and June 18 GIG-FRA flights (sunday & monday), departing Rio at 12:05 PM keep 0C and 1C available. And again 2 weeks being sold...
You can find seats on C for the night flight...

That info is not enough to conclude the flight is a success or that a single ticket in C was sold. It could have been that Varig upgraded or distributed C tickets to executives, members of the midia, government officials, etc for the few days of operation.
I looked through the business class availability of that flight over the month of July and it is just very odd. There is plenty of availability for 2 or 3 days every week, and nothing in the other days. Not exactly the pattern of an airline selling business class tickets. My conclusion is that the lack of availability does not correspond to sales of tickets in that cabin at all.
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hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 17):
The problem with that setup seems to be that it has failed for LH in the past.



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 17):
I think LH's reasoning is to give the EZE station another shot at a nonstop flight, while trying to improve the financial performance by doing away with the expensive tag, which involves a crew change and 2 extra cycles, and reinforcing utilization rates for the aircraft involved.

I insist that if LH wants to give another try to EZE it needs to serve the destination in a way which is competitive: red-eye and nonstop flight. I agree regarding SCL, which should not be added to EZE as a leg as it increases the operational cost of the flight. However, the situation is the market, different from what you mentioned, is very different. Argentina has emerged from a major crisis and now has much healtheir economy also reflected in its air traffic.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 17):
Even AF is having trouble filling up the front cabins and is often doing so by overbooking the back of the truck. EZE is among the AF stations with the highest opup rates in the system. At AF, GRU far outperforms EZE in terms of premium demand. So, indeed, I do believe that EZE is actually lower yielding than many believe.

AF could handle the situation in EZE by simply introducing the B747. I think EZE would be a perfect fir for AF's 2-class B747 or perhaps the 2-class B77W.

The situation you described above was evident in the flight I took last month BA's EZE-GRU in C. EZE departure: the F cabin had zero pax, C had 2 pax in the upper deck and 2 in lower deck, while the Y had load of about 40%-30%. Note: F and C departed from GRU with 95% load.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 17):
Apparently, AF is, at least right now precluded from adding Argentina frequencies, which is one of the reasons KLM, which still holds Argentina route authority, looked into the possibility of adding AMS EZE.

I dont think KLM will fly back to EZE. The matter of the bilateral could be handled through negotiations. And a change for a bigger capacity aircraft under AF single daily flights will cope with demand. Also taking into account that it seems apparent that both LH and BA are considering EZE as future nonstop destinations.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 18):
That info is not enough to conclude the flight is a success or that a single ticket in C was sold. It could have been that Varig upgraded or distributed C tickets to executives, members of the midia, government officials, etc for the few days of operation.

I know RG is giving free tickets as "favours" because it needs the support of the Government...also many officials from Rio's local Gvernment got free tickets in C...This is common practice when airlines start new routes, so no problem.

In addition: June-July is extremely busy period for Europe-Brazil routes with most flights already fully booked so RG somehow must be capitalising on the busy holiday period - this was one of the reasons for the flight to start now in June.
Let's see how the flight develops after August, especially with the horrible timetable...

Rgs,
 
Qazar
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 4:18 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:28 am

I believe that with the recent MOUs signed with TAM and TACA, and their iminent recruitment into the Star Alliance, we should start seeing a lot of activity by LH with regards to its South American network.

I don't believe that LH backed away from South America for any other reason beside shortage of metal, and that their aircraft were better off deployed on more revenue generating routes... and this argument is not to be confused as if I'm implying that Latin American routes are not profitable - far from it!

I believe over the next few years, Rio de Janeiro, Bogota and Lima would be re-introduced... as would San José de Costa Rica. I also see present Latin American stations served by more direct routes therefore seeing a capacity increase - and this especially considering all the new aircraft LH is scheduled to be receiving soon. I think (or maybe just hope) that in 5 years time the LH/LX network may look something like this:

SOUTHERN LATIN AMERICA:
LH: A388 FRA - GRU
LH: A346 FRA - GIG - SCL
LH: A343 FRA - EZE
LH: A346 MUC - GRU
LX: A343 ZRH - GRU
* Additional Brazil - Germany flights operated in cooperation with TAM using TAM aircraft.

- Sao Paulo: Would see capacity increase through a larger aircraft from Frankfurt (B744 to A380) and Munich (A343 to A346), a terminating flight from Frankfurt (cancellation of Buenos Aires tag), and a terminating flight from Zurich (cancelation of the SCL tag). In other words, all GRU flights by LH and LX become dedicated to GRU and some would see an aircraft upgrade.
- Rio de Janeiro: New route on the network
- Buenos Aires: Would see capacity increase through a dedicated flight (cancellation of the GRU stop)
- Santiago de Chile: Would see capacity increase through a larger aircraft (A343 to A346). The flight would originate from Frankfurt and not Zurich (transfer from LX to LH network), and would now stop in GIG instead of EZE.

NORTHERN LATIN AMERICA:
LH: A388 FRA - MEX
LH: A343 MUC - MEX
LX: A343 ZRH - MEX
LH: A346 FRA - CCS
LH: A343 FRA - BOG
LH: A343 FRA - LIM

I was initially temped to include Lima as a tag on to Bogota, or the latter as a tag on to San José, but any cooperation agreements with TACA would probably require direct flights to TACA's hubs in order to be efficient - therefore San José and Lima would have to be nonstop if not even dedicated flights.

Cheers
 
Comeflywithme
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:51 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:23 am

I wish BA would follow LH and go non stop to EZE hopefully this LH decision might help them decide to follow.

A dayflight to EZE can be done no problem I flew IB from MAD at noon and it was a great flight getting into EZE at around 8pm.
 
User avatar
robffm2
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:47 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:42 pm

Quoting Qazar (Reply 20):

SOUTHERN LATIN AMERICA:
LH: A388 FRA - GRU

That's a very brave statement, but let's just keep our fingers crossed.
As what I understand is that LH FRA-GRU service is showing good load factors. It's certainly never showing up as the cheapest offer when looking for flights from FRA to GRU.

Rob
 
LH506
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 9:48 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:52 pm

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
It would make sense for LH to fly nonstop to Argentina, again, since the economy their has recovered. Why they didn't go nonstop with a A340 I never understood.

AF is using the 777ER. My question is, if the A343 is capable of going FRA-EZE with full payload? It used to be LHs longest non-stop flight, but never on a A343.

What is the range difference between a 777ER and an A343?
NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 77L 788 300B2 300B4 345 359 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
stylo777
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:57 pm




range of A340-300, B777-300ER, B777-200ER
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting Robffm2 (Reply 22):
As what I understand is that LH FRA-GRU service is showing good load factors. It's certainly never showing up as the cheapest offer when looking for flights from FRA to GRU

FRA-GRU B747 is one of LH's top performers - and you have to take into account that LH/LX operate in total 3 daily flights to GRU. One thing for sure: although LH has neglected South America over recent years, it has never retreated from its most important market: GRU.

Rgs,
 
LH506
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 9:48 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
range of A340-300, B777-300ER, B777-200ER

is this with full load and headwinds etc. included?
NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 77L 788 300B2 300B4 345 359 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
dalca
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:36 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:57 am

The LH flights to South America are top earners for LH, both passangerwise and cargowise. LH makes a lot of money off of the the cargo flown to South America.
Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting DALCA (Reply 27):
The LH flights to South America are top earners for LH, both passangerwise and cargowise. LH makes a lot of money off of the the cargo flown to South America.

That's all nice and dandy, but that somewhat flies in the face of the cold shoulder that Lufthansa has given South America in the past couple of years. If these destinations were really the top earners in Lufthansa's network, which I believe they surely have the potential to be, why did the airline withdraw the EZE nonstop in the first place? Why did it not return the GIG nonstop once RG folded? Why did it not bring back LIM and BOG while AF and KL has been aggressively expanding there? Why did it not react to the introduction of AF nonstops to SCL?

It is clear that LH's priority in South America has been GRU, and so it should be, yet there are other places out there and it seems as if LH has let the competition run away with the market there.
 
dalca
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:36 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:57 am

LH didn't return to GIG when RG folded because there was no metal around for them to operate the flight with in the way that LH wanted. The LH operation there was already pretty wound down when RG stopped flying and it is very hard to suddnely open a station up again if it is offline.

LH hasn't expanded in the last years in South America, not counting MUC-GRU and the now daily LH534 FRA-CCS, because they wanted to expnd other markets where they were not present. Think of HYD, CCU, TSE and also LH chose to increase services on existing routes.
Another reason why LH has not expanded in South America, it has already been mentioned earlier, has been the lack of suitable aircraft available for these routes.
I do see LH going back to LIM and BOG in the short future.
Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting DALCA (Reply 29):
LH hasn't expanded in the last years in South America, not counting MUC-GRU and the now daily LH534 FRA-CCS, because they wanted to expnd other markets where they were not present.

That was exactly my point earlier. LH has over the past couple of season rightly or wrongly chosen to expand in other markets rather than in South America because the airline apparently believed that it could get a better return out of its available resources in North America, India and China. I do believe that the FRA GRU operation has been a top earner for LH, but that's about it; other stations have in the past done not nearly as well as that or they would have been brought back online or would have seen the return of nonstop service.

Recent history seems to have proven LH somewhat wrong with its strategy, because apart from the usual suspect IB and TP, the likes of AF and KL have aggressively expanded in the region with the introduction of new nonstop and additional frequencies, and with the opening of new destinations in the pipeline. LH seems to have lost the bandwagon on this one and is now scrambling to get back on board. It remains to be seen how that will work out for them.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 25):
FRA-GRU B747 is one of LH's top performers - and you have to take into account that LH/LX operate in total 3 daily flights to GRU. One thing for sure: although LH has neglected South America over recent years, it has never retreated from its most important market: GRU.

Yes Hardi but be in mind that the plane continues to EZE and with a future FRA-EZE flight does not make sense also upgrade the plane for a single FRA-GRU flight. Better to keep the 744 or even use a 346 for this flight as you will need to fill the plane as well as not to forget future possible JJ service GRU-FRA, at least 5x weekly.
That's why i can't see space for the A388 and even the B744 will need some efforts from LH.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 28):
why did the airline withdraw the EZE nonstop in the first place?

They probably wont expect AF reaction, and imagine that Argentina would accept the stop.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 28):
Why did it not return the GIG nonstop once RG folded?

Same situation, they imagine all customer could accept the stop at GRU and wont expect any AF smart move.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 28):
It is clear that LH's priority in South America has been GRU, and so it should be, yet there are other places out there and it seems as if LH has let the competition run away with the market there

And this is why i believe they will find a hard scenario ahead. Everyone looks to GRU and some of their focus, GRU-Asia, EZE and SCL-GRU, has become past as AF for example introduce SCL-CDG non stop service and new players are coming (Air China, Emirates). LH use to face loss on South America and it's a public statement up to the last year. Now they run MUC-GRU with a single plane (in the past use to run with 2 planes the FRA-GRU-SCL) and deploy the A343 instead of A346 to SCL. And even with one less plane they keep selling C on lower fares because of the competition (IB, TP, JJ). They are using the MUC-GRU to compete on medium yields, the EZE-GRU-FRA is really a money maker, but they still face problems on both SCL-GRU and SCL-EZE legs, too expensive and not with higher loads (also competition on GRU-SCL and GRU-EZE become stronger and it's not easy to find customers for so early flights) , so they keep some problems that the future will bring in a more clear way.


Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Qazar
Posts: 180
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Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 30):
Recent history seems to have proven LH somewhat wrong with its strategy, because apart from the usual suspect IB and TP, the likes of AF and KL have aggressively expanded in the region with the introduction of new nonstop and additional frequencies, and with the opening of new destinations in the pipeline. LH seems to have lost the bandwagon on this one and is now scrambling to get back on board. It remains to be seen how that will work out for them.

But keep in mind that as KL and AF expanded in South America, LH wasn't sitting around twirling its thumbs... It was taking the lead in other parts of the world. I believe that are the number 1 European operator to the middle east, serving every country in the region except for Syria and Iraq. LH is an undisputed champion in Asia, and their North American network is only second to BA.

If this thread was about SE Asia instead of Latin America, the comments would all be the same, and the airlines would be reserved. LH/BA/AF can't seem to be able to play the world all at once. They'll concentrate on an area at the detriment of other parts of the world. Now that we all suspect that LH will start to pay more attention to Latin Am (for example if they reinstate Lima, Rio or Bogota), it will bring competition to the recent expansions of AF and KL over the past few years and market effects will take place... prices will fall, service will increase, and eventually the market will shift as LH will take up some market share away from AF and KL and the latter will find themselves limiting their expansion plans or reducing present services in order to adjust to the imminent market share loss.

By doing so, LH will also pay less attention to expansion of other places in the world where they are presently very strong such as the ME, North Am, or SE Asia. AF and KL will then look to these areas where they can increase competition and redeploy their aircraft; and imminently will create the same effect on LH that LH is exercising on them in Latin Am... And the world will continue to turn...

As for the A388 in GRU, presently LH is operating a B744 (mind you I know it continues to EZE), Munich sees a dedicated A343 every day, and LX another A343 (continuing to SCL). As mentioned earlier, prices on the GRU are very high and load factors (both pax and cargo) are some of the best in the airline's network... Hmmm, yeah I can see how the A388 fits very well in that equation of expansion. Consider 1 thing though: If LH continues to operate the EZE leg as an extension to the GRU and introduce the A388 on the route, it will become the only airline in the world to serve South America (both GRU and EZE) with the world's largest and most publicised jet.... Do you think people will still chose it out of EZE?!!! I believe it would maintain high load factors out of EZE and would even pull away passengers from other airlines serving EZE nonstop just because they'd want to fly the A380. And I even believe that they can pull this strategy off for a few years before they seperate the EZE from the GRU flights.
 
HB-IWC
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Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:23 pm

Quoting Qazar (Reply 32):
LH wasn't sitting around twirling its thumbs... It was taking the lead in other parts of the world.

Quite obviously, Lufthansa has seen it fit to invest the majority of its available resources elsewhere, particularly in North America, India and China. Yet, again, South America did not get the attention it probably deserved, and even the focus on Asia has been very selective, and while the airline has clearly opted for maximizing the immediate return to the bottom line, it seems as if other airlines have taken a slightly different approach, choosing instead to steadily build their market shares in those markets that had previously been abandoned by others.

I am in no way condemning Lufthansa for its overall strategy. The airline remains one of the best run companies in the world, yet one can't deny that it has over the past couple of years shown a fundamental lack of coherent vision for its South America market and network. I point in particular to the complete abandonment of GIG. If Air France manages to fill not just one but soon almost 2 daily flights, then surely LH could have done better than what we have seen. The airline has also lost its ground in the Argentina market. It's good that they are waking up to the situation now, but it might be a touch too late.
 
Marambio
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Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:39 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 33):
It's good that they are waking up to the situation now, but it might be a touch too late.

I agree with that statement. Lufthansa was a quite big player on the Argentina-Europe market before they downgraded the service with the GRU stop. No matter how hard they wanted their premium customers to believe it was actually an upgrade (I received twice a letter when they started to fly via GRU saying it's great - you can now fly First Class), most premiums are now Elites with AF or any other airline linking Argentina to Europe, and must have been downgraded to Silver on LH's own M&M.

Having flown various times both via GRU and nonstop, I can say that apparently GRU terribly damaged their performance. Before introducing the stop, LH hardly ever had any offers - now they have everyday, and also try to target people only flying to Sao Paulo, thus making one of Europe's oldest airlines fight against low-cost Gol.

Although I wish Lufthansa great success, I tend to believe it will be hard for them to catch up with the rest, especially with AF, for it seems it has taken most former-LH premium pax.

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
Anetter123
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:46 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:42 am

Just checked in Apollo for any possible nonstops into next year but they all still show a stop in GRU.

I wonder how LH really does in EZE profit wise? Does anyone know how competitive their fares are into EZE warranting a stop in GRU and assuming not all passengers final destination is FRA? Do they really pick up alot of revenue from GRU-EZE?
 
incitatus
Posts: 2713
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting DALCA (Reply 29):
LH didn't return to GIG when RG folded because there was no metal around for them to operate the flight with in the way that LH wanted.

"No metal" is just a veiled explanation for "no potential". Every large airline has money losing routes. If LH thought there was any substantial chance for profits at GIG, it would have diverted airplanes from other routes to cover it.
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argento
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 1:44 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:51 am

Another situation that change from 2001 is the almost disappearance of Star-alliance routes out of EZE to any other destinations like GRU(RG) or MIA-NYC(UA)& the one stop to Europe(LH) . The important disembark of SkyTeam , with CO , DL & AM to USA-ASIA-MEX , and the aggressive marketing of AF to Europe-ASIA , not forgetting the Strong presence of AZ from EZE to Europe.That make multiple options for Business travelers , options not available right now with the Star-alliance.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 36):
Every large airline has money losing routes. If LH thought there was any substantial chance for profits at GIG, it would have diverted airplanes from other routes to cover it.

Agree 100%, and in investment decision-making this is call opportunity cost. The only problem is that LH was wrong, as its South American operations are cracking apart, except for GRU. This, however, has to be tempered with the fact that LH has proved to be one of the (perhaps the best) managed airline in the world. It is enough to say that LH was the world's most profitable airline in 2006.

The important think is that LH has the conditions to "come back" and this is what LH is currently doing. The agreements with TAM and TA show that the LH has revised its strategy and will investment more in other markets of the region - without losing sight of its cash-cow: GRU.

Quoting Marambio (Reply 34):
Although I wish Lufthansa great success, I tend to believe it will be hard for them to catch up with the rest, especially with AF, for it seems it has taken most former-LH premium pax.

As I mentioned, I think LH has the leverage to come back and make inroads in AF markets in South America. LH is a powerful airline. This is why I think that LH has to get the right decisions for the region and it means nothing less than EZE and GIG dedicated, daily, nonstop and red-eye.

Quoting Argento (Reply 37):
That make multiple options for Business travelers , options not available right now with the Star-alliance.

This will change from October with the agreement TAM-UA.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:54 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 36):
"No metal" is just a veiled explanation for "no potential". Every large airline has money losing routes. If LH thought there was any substantial chance for profits at GIG, it would have diverted airplanes from other routes to cover it.

No metal for LH could mean no profit, but it seems that they have hired the wrong demand study. I can't understand how AF can handle a plane with 433 pax (will be almost 600 daily seats in average in 5 months) with a very few low fares and promotional classes....

Their no-focus (LH) on Latin America is clear. Not to mention they reduced their daily offer to GRU from A346+B744 both overnight, to B744 overnight + A343 daylight MUC-GRU.

In the past they face LOSS in South America and this reduction in offer (and cost saving) could be the difference between the loss and a small profit.

As mentioned, LH neglects EZE, LIM, BOG and GIG as stations. I believe they made this because of their focus on Asia. But they will pay a price.

If LH is right as you said, for me AF, TP, IB, UX and even JJ are crazy to increase flights in a market with "no potential". UX was one for example that drop Asian routes in favor of Latin America. LH is the only one in the opposite way !

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
kiwiandrew

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:33 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 39):
If LH is right as you said, for me AF, TP, IB, UX and even JJ are crazy to increase flights in a market with "no potential". UX was one for example that drop Asian routes in favor of Latin America. LH is the only one in the opposite way !

LH is not the only one . BA have consistently cut back their routes in Latin America SCL , BOG , CCS have all been dropped , EZE and GIG reduced to one stop services via GRU while they have increased services to HKG , China and India
 
Comeflywithme
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:51 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:05 pm

Can anyone based in down EZE way confirm if airport charges/landing fees have increased substantially over the last few years?
Just asking as fares on these routes especially with BA have jumped dramatically and maybe one reason why BA have cut back on the EZE services as PAX try and find value elsewhere.

Are the EZE charges forcing airlines to cut back on the route?
 
LH498
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Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:10 am

Hello everybody,
this thread is turning quiet interesting and I want to suggest to focus to the whole of Latin America, including Mexico.

LH has neglected Mexico the same way as the other Latin-american countries.
Less than 10 years ago LH was the european carrier with most presence at MEX, having not only daily non-stop flights to FRA but also 3 cargo flights a week(sometimes even 4). Later, after axing the cargo flights they increased their passenger flights to 10 weekly, that was less than 5 years ago. After more than a year they axed the extra flights for the same reasons posted before: lack of equipment, focus on India & China.

What happened since then?? Well today AF & IB both have double daily flights to MEX. And AF has taken the lead as the european airline with the greatest presence in Mexico as the they operate some cargo flights aswell.

MEX has been for a long time a profitable destination for LH, but IMO contrary to EZE and GIG LH is still on time to expand again at MEX. According to the press and some rumors as soon as 2008 LH may add frequencies and/or a flight to MUC. It matches in time to their plans regarding EZE, so it may be possible. However, these rumors have been out there, at least on this site, for quite some time.
I know quantity doesn't necessarily mean quality(in this case yield), so they may perhaps fear yield-diluting (Is that the correct term?), but looking at the other european carriers and AM doing very good, I would not think it is the case.

From this and other threads in recent time about LH, we know they are up to something regarding Latin America
 stirthepot   stirthepot   stirthepot 

Do you know anything more concrete about Mexico?  Confused
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting LH498 (Reply 42):
And AF has taken the lead as the european airline with the greatest presence in Mexico as the they operate some cargo flights aswell.

Not to mention that KL also operates daily AMS-MEX B747.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 39):
Not to mention they reduced their daily offer to GRU from A346+B744 both overnight, to B744 overnight + A343 daylight MUC-GRU

I think LH-LX remains solid in GRU: LX recently increased GRU to daily. LH-LX keep 3 daily operations in GRU (and although two flights continue to SCL and EZE, GRU takes the lion's share of the loads of both flights). But again, if you compare to AF-KL then we conclude that even GRU is somehow neglected considering AF-KL keep 3 daily flights to GRU as dedicated flights.

Rgs,
 
incitatus
Posts: 2713
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 39):
No metal for LH could mean no profit, but it seems that they have hired the wrong demand study. I can't understand how AF can handle a plane with 433 pax (will be almost 600 daily seats in average in 5 months) with a very few low fares and promotional classes....



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 39):
If LH is right as you said,

I never said LH was right, and as I have said in another thread: Airlines do make mistakes. Sometimes they make some very dumb mistakes. Sometimes they make so many dumb mistakes they go out of business.

I won't say for sure though not flying to Rio was a mistake for LH. Here is a bunch of theories: AF's large presence in Rio was a deterrent to LH going back there. The increased traffic they would get from an extension GRU-GIG was not worth the expense of the short flight and nonstop was a definite money loser. Every analysis LH made of new routes indeed pointed to Asia. AF is not making money in Rio, though they hope to make money in the future. AF may have lots of corporate contracts in Rio and LH will never get them. Remember, these are THEORIES, I have no evidence.

Now for opinion, I do think LH and BA handed South America on a tray to AF.
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Avianca
Posts: 5274
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 39):
If LH is right as you said, for me AF, TP, IB, UX and even JJ are crazy to increase flights in a market with "no potential". UX was one for example that drop Asian routes in favor of Latin America. LH is the only one in the opposite way !

Felipe, but do not forget LatinAmerica is the natural market for UX, Asia a exotic market.

Quoting LH498 (Reply 42):
LH has neglected Mexico the same way as the other Latin-american countries.
Less than 10 years ago LH was the european carrier with most presence at MEX, having not only daily non-stop flights to FRA but also 3 cargo flights a week(sometimes even 4). Later, after axing the cargo flights they increased their passenger flights to 10 weekly, that was less than 5 years ago. After more than a year they axed the extra flights for the same reasons posted before: lack of equipment, focus on India & China.

shame about LH, never understood how they cut back, specially the cargo flights.... MEX is mostly sold out regarding cargo capacity from europe.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Lan1981
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:30 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:41 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 44):
Now for opinion, I do think LH and BA handed South America on a tray to AF

I think this depends on what each airline is expecting in terms of profit from a particular route...I can't speak for AF (or indeed any other airline operating to this region), but BA only have a limited number of longhaul aircraft at this time (4 777s are due for delivery next year).

BA has for some time only really focused on the premium end of the market, and its expectations of each of the routes it flies are high....if it is apparent that a route is not likely to meet the necessary targets (high % of premium pax) then it will divert its resources to more lucrative markets; and so it is with South America. Sao Paulo is a fantastic market for BA in this respect, but that is pretty much it.....there is a lot of growth & potential on the Buenos Aires route but it is not yet performing well enough to justify a dedicated service.

With respect to CCS and BOG, BA tried FOR YEARS to try and make these routes work....they changed aircraft types & frequencies but it just wasn't good enough.

It may be that AF and other European airlines have different targets for their routes...maybe they are happy to subsidise some of their loss-making routes, or perhaps it is simply having the necessary aircraft in the fleet...

If you only have a limited number of resources with which to make some money for your business, then you are going to want to put those resources in the best possible location; at the moment the focus is on India & China....perhaps with more aircraft, BA will look again at South America.
 
Avianca
Posts: 5274
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:01 am

Quoting Lan1981 (Reply 46):
With respect to CCS and BOG, BA tried FOR YEARS to try and make these routes work....they changed aircraft types & frequencies but it just wasn't good enough.

several times the airport...

I think all these changes were the problem for the route.... I am sure they could fill a daily 767-300 on a CCS-BOG routing (icluding higher yield passengers)
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
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SQ773
Topic Author
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:24 pm

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:22 pm

Quoting LH498 (Reply 42):
After more than a year they axed the extra flights for the same reasons posted before: lack of equipment, focus on India & China.

What happened since then?? Well today AF & IB both have double daily flights to MEX. And AF has taken the lead as the european airline with the greatest presence in Mexico as the they operate some cargo flights aswell.

By that time, the second flight to MEX did not perform well , the passage load factors were most of the times below 60 %, specially on the leg MEX/FRA. The reason was not lack of equipment, believe me.

As for cargo, both flights were full, and MEX is a high yield cargo destination, but that is not enough.
 
LH498
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 3:35 am

Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.

Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 48):
By that time, the second flight to MEX did not perform well , the passage load factors were most of the times below 60 %, specially on the leg MEX/FRA. The reason was not lack of equipment, believe me.

I didn't know that, thanks for clarifying.
Makes sense as routes to the US were reinforced after the cancellation of the second flight.
The reasons I posted were the reasons LH gave to the press on several occasions, they answered very diplomatically then. Wink

BTW, do you know anything about those rumors regarding Mexico?

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