kl911
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:11 am

I just came back from dinner at AMS where quit a few airline exec's where present, and I've heard from a European airline exec that ordered the 787 that a minimum 6 months delay is announced or will be shortly.

I just noticed the other thread as well, is it about suppliers or Boeing itself? This guy said it was Boeing having serious problems with the composite materials.

I know I'm pro Airbus, but still wants to see the 787 as soon as possible. what's going on? Anyone from the inside with more info? Journalists around us wher very interested, so I assume this will hit the press soon.

KL911
 
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Stitch
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:16 am

All the statements from Boeing principals the last few months have said that the CFRP structures are exceeding projected quality for this stage in the program. The only thing I have heard is that fastener supplies are a bit tight, but Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production.
 
hb88
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
All the statements from Boeing principals the last few months have said that the CFRP structures are exceeding projected quality for this stage in the program. The only thing I have heard is that fastener supplies are a bit tight, but Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production.

I'd be interested to know precisely how Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production of fasteners  Wink The fastener issue (and it's quite a big issue) is hitting near all manufacturers of airframes, not just Boeing. I doubt Alcoa would be cutting Boeing any particular slack in relation to their other customers outside the scope of their normal supply agreements or in a way which adversely affects those supply agreements.

In any case, there are certainly public signs that some 787 things are not quite going completely to plan - the Vought issues with production, the horizontal stab issue, some interesting certification rumours and the 783 EISA certification abandonment.

As the tempo of the program ramps up, from this point onwards is probably the most stressful/critical time for the program up until EIS.
 
kl911
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
the statements from Boeing principals the last few months have said that the CFRP structures are exceeding projected quality for this stage in the program. The only thing I have heard is that fastener supplies are a bit tight, but Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production.

ok, but this guy has contacts with Boeing since her ordered the 787 himself, at least signed for it. He got the word from within Boeing, don't blame me...

KL911
 
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SEPilot
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:30 am

It seems that Boeing has been very proactive about attacking potential problems head-on and also has been very open about everything that's going on. This is the antithesis of what happened at Airbus with the A380; in that case I believe the managers had their heads in the sand (or perhaps somewhere else) and just refused to believe what the underlings were telling them until they had no choice. I don't see Boeing doing the same; if there was going to be a delay I'm quite sure that the first to know it would be the customers, and the public would know soon after.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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solnabo
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:31 am

If Boeing have delay of 787 I guess that will be announced at the Paris Air Show

Just my  twocents 

Micke//  Smile
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
zvezda
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:32 am

An ontime rollout won't mean much. If first flight is ontime, that will be a good indicator that everything is likely to be more or less ok. If the first flight is late, then we can expect first delivery to be late also. Anyway, there is not yet enough to expect delays. The 787 appears to be ontime.
 
bringiton
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting KL911 (Thread starter):

It would be rather strange and very unlike boeing (atleast boeing of recent times) to announce a delay in the near future when there entire team was just saying at there confrence call a few weeks ago that everything was on schedule for roll out , first flight and EIS . However this 6 month rumour does not seem to die down. IIRC it all started with JL mentioning it a few months back (from what he heard from suppliers common to boeing and airbus) and has refused to die down . We will see if boeing announces a delay shortly , however with all this A.net hype that is created from that one article i would assume that boeing would come out either way accepting or rejecting these rumours (Atleast Randy B read A.net forums ) .

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...rticles/0524biz-mktsector0524.html
 
sphealey
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:35 am

Nothing has been released on Boeing's investor news site nor to any of the financial wire services that I have seen. And no SEC filing either (8-K). I am no financial analyst, but I think that if Boeing knows that it is facing a six month delay it has to announce that to the investment world reasonably soon after it becomes aware of the situation.

sPh
 
Shenzhen
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
All the statements from Boeing principals the last few months have said that the CFRP structures are exceeding projected quality for this stage in the program. The only thing I have heard is that fastener supplies are a bit tight, but Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production.

I believe there was some quality issues with the HZ stab.

Quoting HB88 (Reply 2):

I'd be interested to know precisely how Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production of fasteners Wink The fastener issue (and it's quite a big issue) is hitting near all manufacturers of airframes, not just Boeing. I doubt Alcoa would be cutting Boeing any particular slack in relation to their other customers outside the scope of their normal supply agreements or in a way which adversely affects those supply agreements.

Isn't the shortage for Titanium fasteners?

Quoting HB88 (Reply 2):
As the tempo of the program ramps up, from this point onwards is probably the most stressful/critical time for the program up until EIS.

Certainly as the program bottlenecks down to first delivery, the milestones become more and more important, and along with those the stress levels increase (except for one exec at Vought)

Cheers
 
remcor
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
If Boeing have delay of 787 I guess that will be announced at the Paris Air Show

Don't you want to announce GOOD news at the biggest airshow the year?

I'd rather bet they'd do it WashingtonDC style and make the announcement Friday evening so it doesn't get as much press coverage. Well, maybe not, but still there's no reason that you'd want to throw egg on your face at a venue where EVERYONE is watching.
 
ANCFlyer
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:40 am

RE: Mad Dash To Finish 787 Gets Trickier (by DeltaDC9 May 17 2007 in Civil Aviation)
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
kl911
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 4):
if there was going to be a delay I'm quite sure that the first to know it would be the customers,

This news came from a customer.... read carefully.... I also want to see the 787 soon, but its what he told the guy where I was standing next to.
 
Shenzhen
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:41 am

"IF" the 787 is late to deliver, we will see a STRIKE next year at Boeing. Once the Union Boys/Girls walk out, Boeing will provide the Airlines/Operators with their new delivery schedule. Boeing WILL make the next labor contract so bad that the Union will walk, then just after 31 days make amends.

Cheers
 
kl911
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 14):
"IF" the 787 is late to deliver, we will see a STRIKE next year at Boeing. Once the Union Boys/Girls walk out, Boeing will provide the Airlines/Operators with their new delivery schedule. Boeing WILL make the next labor contract so bad that the Union will walk, then just after 31 days make amends.

'

Why is that? normally ( here in europe) a company goed to court, and if a strike is damaging the company or customers it will be forbidden. As it should be in my opinion. If you don't like your work, find something else...
 
kl911
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:48 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 15):
Surprising that this thread has only 14 replies so far....it should have crossed 100 by now....are all a.nutters (and A vs. B fanatics) asleep...?

It's weekend......Europeans are in a bar ( where I heard this news..) Americans are still waking up or working.... Smile
 
oldeuropean
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 15):
Surprising that this thread has only 14 replies so far....it should have crossed 100 by now....are all a.nutters (and A vs. B fanatics) asleep...?

There are other threads about this subject.

... and it seems that A fanatics are not so gleeful and childish as B fanatics were (with hundreds of threads and gloating posts) about the problems of A with the A380 and the A350.

I hope that Boeing will solve his apparent problems ASAP.  Smile

Axel

[Edited 2007-06-08 22:01:32]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
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SEPilot
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 13):

This news came from a customer.... read carefully.... I also want to see the 787 soon, but its what he told the guy where I was standing next to.

Yes, I read that. I was not saying there wouldn't be a delay, I was saying the customers would know it first. But I do not know what your informant's capacity is; rumors fly around every organization and not even relatively high-ranking people always know what is true and what isn't. If Boeing is experiencing problems (which I'm sure they are; I have no idea of how serious they are) I'm quite sure they have informed the airlines of exactly what the situation is, and if there is a potential of a delay then they know it and precisely why. What I suspect MAY be the case is that Boeing has said that if X, Y, or Z happens then there will be a delay, and some who have been informed have interpreted that as that there will be a delay. I doubt at this point that Boeing knows that there will be a delay; so far everything seems to be pretty much on track with no more than the expected number of glitches.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Shenzhen
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 16):
Why is that? normally ( here in europe) a company goed to court, and if a strike is damaging the company or customers it will be forbidden. As it should be in my opinion. If you don't like your work, find something else...

I think you misunderstood. If there is a delay to the 787 program, I''m betting that BOEING will force a labor issue to ensure the Union goes on Strike (the IAM Contract is up the 3rd Quarter next year). Once the 30 or so days pass (which would wipe out contractual penalties with Boeings Customers per the Contracts), Boeing and the Union will have a meeting of the minds and they will return to work. Workers will receive a nice return to work bonus and Boeing will be able to re-write the delivery schedules without penalty.

But, lets hope it delivers on time.

Cheers

[Edited 2007-06-08 22:10:08]
 
flydreamliner
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
If Boeing have delay of 787 I guess that will be announced at the Paris Air Show

I think waiting sounds illegal. If the company knows something that is going to impact their financials in a substantive manner, like a 6 month delay on a major product line, they are required to make that information public right away. If there were a magical and sudden 6 month delay after so many "we're on time, no reason to believe otherwise" statements, I'd think they'd just come out and say it - and not at a huge airshow.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 14):
Surprising that this thread has only 14 replies so far....it should have crossed 100 by now....are all a.nutters (and A vs. B fanatics) asleep...? Big grin

I think everyone realizes this is wishful thinking on the part of some and mostly just alarmist nonsense. I'm yet to see an authoritative source anywhere about this.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
kl911
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 19):
I think you misunderstood. If there is a delay to the 787 program, I''m betting that BOEING will force a labor issue to ensure the Union goes on Strike (the IAM Contract is up next 3rd Quarter next year). Once the 30 or so days pass (which would wipe out in contractual penalties with Boeings Customers per the Contracts), Boeing and the Union will have a meeting of the minds and they will return to work. Workers will receive a nice return to work bonus and Boeing will be able to re-write the delivery schedules without penalty.

But, lets hope it delivers on time.

Is this common practice, and legal? Just curious.
 
NYC777
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 2):
I'd be interested to know precisely how Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production of fasteners The fastener issue (and it's quite a big issue) is hitting near all manufacturers of airframes, not just Boeing. I doubt Alcoa would be cutting Boeing any particular slack in relation to their other customers outside the scope of their normal supply agreements or in a way which adversely affects those supply agreements.

As with any OEM, Boeing wold work with all suppliers to get the required parts in a timely manner. Boeing is working with Alcoa to do just that and that what you would expect them to do. BTW, I know for a fact that fasteners are no longer an issue for Boeing and the 787.

Quoting HB88 (Reply 2):
In any case, there are certainly public signs that some 787 things are not quite going completely to plan - the Vought issues with production

Well if Vought and Global Aeronautica continue to deliver fuselage section then whatever issues Vought has has been solved. All we know that he could have been fired for past performance and Boeing sent personel to help get things back on track. AS of last month Boeing has stated publically as late as last month, that suppliers are on time and the 787 is on time.

Quoting HB88 (Reply 2):
the horizontal stab issue

The HTP is repaired and apparetnly Alenia has worked to prevent any future problems in the HTP. That was just the first one and does not indicate a problem that is endemic to the rest of the production HTPs.

Quoting HB88 (Reply 2):
some interesting certification rumours and the 783 EISA certification abandonment.

Uh huh, Boeing has been working with both EASA and the FAA on all issues related to certification and are prepared even with the special conditions.

the 783 certification was abandoned because EASA was some unexplained reason raised the fee for certification. It has nothing to do with the aircraft it self. I don't understand why you even bought that one up?

Boeing issues with the 787 are certainly nowhere like the issues Airbus has with the A380.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
ikramerica
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:08 am

Well, if he just ordered it recently, it might be that ramp up will be slower than expected and that HIS AIRLINE may have a delayed delivery of 6 months.

This is something I can see happening if the problems at suppliers are not sorted out. But with recent statements by Boeing about EIS, I find it less likely that the whole program will be delayed 6 months, despite what Clickhappy is saying.

If the rumor gains traction, then we'll get a response from Boeing, and it will clear it up. If Boeing says no, and later it turns out to be true and the SEC investigates and finds out that they knew about it early, people would go to jail...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
oldeuropean
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:17 am

http://www.aero.de/news.php?varnewsid=3731

Quote:
Bereits in den vergangenen Monaten mehrten sich Gerüchte, dass es in der Rumpffertigung des 787-Programms zu Verzögerungen kommen könnte. Branchenanalysten werten die Entlassung eines zentralen Managers während der kritischen Produktionsphase als Indiz für ernsthafte Probleme in der Fertigungskette, zumal der Zeitplan bis zur ersten Auslieferung einer 787 im Mai kommenden Jahres an die japanische All Nippon Airways (ANA) ohnehin eng angesetzt sei.

Auch die Lieferung zur Rumpfmontage benötigter Spezialnieten durch Alcoa Inc. ist, wie Boeing bestätigte, derzeit im Rückstand (aero.de berichtete). Der Rollout der ersten 787 soll am 8. Juli am Boeing-Werk Everett stattfinden.

Quick translation:

"Already in the past months there were more rumors that it could come to delays in the trunk manufacturing of the 787-programs. Industry analysts rate the dismissal of a central manager during the critical production phase as indication for serious problems in the manufacturing chain, particularly the schedule up to the first delivery of the first 787 in may next year for the Japanese airline Nippon Airways (ANA) is anyway set to close. Also the supply for the fuselage assembly of necessary special rivets by Alcoa Inc. is, like Boeing confirmed, out of plan. The rollout of the first 787 should take place on 8 July at the Boeing work Everett."

Axel

[Edited 2007-06-08 22:22:25]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
ikramerica
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 26):
Industry analysts rate the dismissal of a central manager during the critical production phase as indication for serious problems in the manufacturing chain, particularly the schedule up to the first delivery of the first 787 in may next year for the Japanese airline Nippon Airways (ANA) are anyway set to close.

Other than Mr. A, who are they? Two other analysts say the Vought problems do NOT look to influence EIS.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Dougloid
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 12):
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 4):
if there was going to be a delay I'm quite sure that the first to know it would be the customers,

This news came from a customer.... read carefully.... I also want to see the 787 soon, but its what he told the guy where I was standing next to.

I think what you are referring to would be in James Wallace's Seattle PI blog June 7, it makes note of the fact that Vought, maker of the tail section is having production problems and in fact has fired their top guy in charge of the 787 program.

A little fair use here.

The top 787 executive for Vought, which is supplying the aft fuselage for the Dreamliner, has been fired, the Seattle P-I has learned.

Ted Perdue was vice president of the 787 division for Vought Aircraft, a position he was appointed to in October 2006.

A Vought spokeswoman said Thursday that Perdue "resigned" to pursue other interests. But a Boeing source said Perdue was fired because Boeing was not happy with Vought's 787 operations in Charleston. An industry source confirmed that Perdue was asked to resign.

The sources did not have details of the problems that led to Perdue's abrupt resignation.


First completed 787 aft fuselage sections (they are shown connected) at Vought's plant in Charleston before delivery last month to Boeing's Everett plant. AP photo.But Boeing has acknowleged problems with some of its 787 suppliers, including Vought, who are responsible for production of the composite wings and fuselage sections of the Dreamliner. Boeing has also said these issues are being addressed and will not prevent the Dreamliner from being delivered on time next May to All Nippon Airways of Japan.

Perdue apparently was sacked late last month, around the time that final assembly started in Everett on the first 787. =
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
oldeuropean
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:28 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 28):
Other than Mr. A, who are they?

Sorry? Who should be Mr A. ?

I just only quoted a report of Aero. A well known and reliable source about the aviation industry.

Axel

[Edited 2007-06-08 22:31:05]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
Shenzhen
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 25):
How long did it take for an US official to admit that there were no signs of any kind of weapon of mass detruction in Iraq? What I mean is, everybody can cover stuff up, EU and US.

Boeing, like any other large Corporation, will not tell the public of any delay until they know for absolute certain that there isn't any way to make up the lost time and deliver the airplane. This certainly won't happen until a few months before delivery, and no one from the SEC is going to throw anyone in jail.

I'm sure that the old Boeing saying that if you need to get 1000 hours of work done, throw 1000 people at it and we are done in 1 hour. Too bad all the work is in the flight deck, and there is only room for 6 people.

Cheers
 
TeamAmerica
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 2):
In any case, there are certainly public signs that some 787 things are not quite going completely to plan - the Vought issues with production, the horizontal stab issue, some interesting certification rumours and the 783 EISA certification abandonment.

What major project ever goes completely to plan? Vought is behind schedule, but that is far different from having an issue with unknown solution. What issue is there with the horizonatal stabilizer? What certification rumors? The 783 EISA certification is a pissing match over fees and has nothing to do with problems in the aircraft.

What I'm seeing are indications that Boeing may have difficulty ramping up production as planned. That is different from failing to meet first flight and EIS targets.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6):
The 787 appears to be ontime.

 checkmark I'm on record long ago as saying that Boeing should be appauded if they came within six months of meeting EIS. As cynical as I am, I don't see any indication of a delay. Issues may arise in flight testing, but at this point there is no cause to say Boeing is behind.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
ikramerica
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:30 am

In a PR from today at Boeing.com about Tom Brokaw being the spokesman for the rollout, Boeing still states that EIS will be May 2008. If they know for a fact that this is not true as some people allege, Boeing are digging their own graves financially and with the SEC.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2007/q2/070608b_nr.html
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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Stitch
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 2):
I'd be interested to know precisely how Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production of fasteners.  wink 

Here ya go. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...technology/2003722789_alcoa26.html

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 9):
I believe there was some quality issues with the HZ stab.

Yes it did not pass an impact test to Boeing's satisfaction, so the part was strengthened with a few additional layers of CFRP. The reinforced part exceeded Boeing's requirements.
 
Shenzhen
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 29):
ol, I just went the easy way.. Smile I meant, in every society/culture/nation there will be some kind of cover up practice if it suits them. Business is tough. eye for an eye.

Absolutely correct. The guys at the top of these companies aren't angels, otherwise they wouldn't be at the top in the first place.

Cheers
 
thebry
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 17):
... and it seems that A fanatics are not so gleeful and childish as B fanatics were (with hundreds of threads and gloating posts) about the problems of A with the A380 and the A350.

Trust me... that's only because this "rumor" hasn't yet been confirmed. When / IF it is confirmed, it'll be open season.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 20):
I think everyone realizes this is wishful thinking on the part of some and mostly just alarmist nonsense. I'm yet to see an authoritative source anywhere about this.

 checkmark 
 
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Stitch
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:39 am

The markets are now closed, so if Boeing does know something, they're likely to mention it now.
 
MCIGuy
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 33):
This certainly won't happen until a few months before delivery, and no one from the SEC is going to throw anyone in jail.

I think the folks in Chicago will want to avoid even the appearance that they've hidden something.  Smile
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oldeuropean
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting Thebry (Reply 39):
Trust me... that's only because this "rumor" hasn't yet been confirmed. When / IF it is confirmed, it'll be open season.

Well, I hope that, if confirmed, we will see a neutral discussion. I rather think to have noticed, that the discussions in the last months were, in contrast to the last year, relatively civilised (by both sides) (Some fishes were banned. )

Axel

[Edited 2007-06-08 22:55:30]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
Danny
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
All the statements from Boeing principals the last few months have said that the CFRP structures are exceeding projected quality for this stage in the program. The

Actually the opposite:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_25/b3989049.htm

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/290032_boeingearns26.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireS...ry?id=2198921&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/10/26/100loc_a1boeing001.cfm

6 months delay is what has been whispered within the industry for some time. I guess all the time Boeing was hoping that they can catch up but it seems that they didn't.

[Edited 2007-06-08 23:22:39]
 
bringiton
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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 41):
I guess all the time Boeing was hoping that they can catch up but they didn't.

Ummmm what source do you have which states a 6 month delay?
 
andrewuber
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Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:26 am

Big version: Width: 645 Height: 738 File size: 181kb
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
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SEPilot
Posts: 4970
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 41):
Actually the opposite:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_25/b3989049.htm

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/290032_boeingearns26.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireS...ry?id=2198921&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/...1.cfm

The most recent of these articles are Oct. 2006; none are recent. None of them say that there will be a delay; they only say that Boeing is having some problems, all of which we have known about and have been discussing all along.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
FCKC
Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:39 pm

787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:31 am

I opened a thread one week ago , but was delayed by moderator.

Here what was written in Air&Cosmos

Boeing 787 : Always too heavy ?

Referring to some certification insider sources , we believe Boeing will not be able to meet what it said about the weight of the FIRST EXAMPLES of the 787.The cause is the more electric philosophy they adopted , giving more weights to the 787 , thus reducing the range.
Boeing doesn't desesperate to lose these kilos by some modifications , which will be visible on the frames produced after the first ones (No mention , fuselage number).


My comment :

I have heard the roll out of the first plane is still July 8th , first flight still during August , and first deliveries next year to All Nippon , but with some penalties with the range............compensation for NH ?

This is NOT a composite material problem , but weight of electric devices.
 
TeamAmerica
Posts: 1540
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:38 am

787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 45):
The most recent of these articles are Oct. 2006; none are recent. None of them say that there will be a delay; they only say that Boeing is having some problems, all of which we have known about and have been discussing all along.

Ditto. And wouldn't it be more suspicious if Boeing disclosed no problems at all?

Anyone who has worked a large project recognizes these "issues" as routine. There's always somethingsmile 
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 41):
The most recent of these articles are Oct. 2006; none are recent

That is exactly my point. Contrary to some claims in this thread, problems with composite parts have been known for a quite a while.

Now today's article:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/318978_vought08.html

confirms that problems still exist. And one of our colleagues from Seattle (a big Boeing fan) reported this morning that first flight may not take place before 2008. Now put the jigsaw together.
 
TeamAmerica
Posts: 1540
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:38 am

787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:55 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 44):
Contrary to some claims in this thread, problems with composite parts have been known for a quite a while.

That's not what those articles say, nor does today's news from Vought indicate "problems with composite parts". The problems have to do with supply and production rates. None of those issues would effect the first flight date.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:03 am

None of the suppliers problems is new and known for months.

Now, suddenly, all this is prominently displayed.

Of course, if I were Boeing, would react and issue a statement, but I understand very well that a company cannot respond to rumors like this " I heard from somebody of an European airline which ordered the B787..."

By the way, this airline should be one that has ordered the B787 not recently.
There is only LOT (7 frames, 8/2005) and Icelandair (2 frames, 3/2006. The other ar less tan 10 months ago!

aminobwana
 
grantcv
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:28 pm

787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:31 am

Considering that Boeing has all the major components in-house and on the assembly line, if there were truly problems that would cause first flight to be delayed by six whole months, then that would indicate that the quality of the parts produced so far is unnacceptable and that they need to be scrapped and replaced. That would mean that the 787 that rolls out on 7/8/07 will never actually fly. It seems way too late for Boeing to be discovering a problem of this magnitude - so I doubt it would be true.

Now if there were a problem with Vought coming up to speed and being able to stuff the assemblies before shipping them to Boeing, that might cause the production rate to not ramp up as fast as had been expected and deliveries might lag for some customers - but again, that would not cause a six month outright delay.
 
flysherwood
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:58 am

787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
If Boeing have delay of 787 I guess that will be announced at the Paris Air Show

Boeing cannot knowingly hold onto information that has ramifications on the value of its shares. The SEC would come down very hard on Boeing for witholding information of this nature.
 
flysherwood
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:58 am

787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 28):
This certainly won't happen until a few months before delivery, and no one from the SEC is going to throw anyone in jail

It's a little law known as Sarbanes / Oaxley. They will arrest the President & CEO of Boeing if he knowingly withheld information. What are you talking about?  Yeah sure
 
bringiton
Posts: 763
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:24 am

787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:54 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 55):



I think it speaks volumes when one blurb about a subcontractor's VP losing his job results in what we've seen here.

Just imagine what would happen if mike bair catches a flu and doesnt show up for work....There would be rumours that the problems were so complex that hey ran away  Smile
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1577
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved

Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:38 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 16):
It's weekend......Europeans are in a bar ( where I heard this news..)

We call that pub gossip!

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 17):
... and it seems that A fanatics are not so gleeful and childish as B fanatics were (with hundreds of threads and gloating posts) about the problems of A with the A380 and the A350.

Completely the opposite. B fanatics have had plenty of genuine problems to comment on at Airbus. The A fans have to resort to "pub gossip" for Boeing.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 22):
the 783 certification was abandoned because EASA was some unexplained reason raised the fee for certification. It has nothing to do with the aircraft it self. I don't understand why you even bought that one up?

As I understand it Europe is saying the 783 must be certified as a different aircraft, and that is the problem. It is a European problem not a Boeing problem. I'm sure it will be sorted out before the 350-1000 requires certifying.

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 24):
the dismissal of a central manager during the critical production phase as indication for serious problems

This surely just contrasts the difference between Boeing and airbus. Boeing have a problem and solve it, Airbus seem to lack this capability, in a timely manner at least.

Ruscoe

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