mozart
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

Could A DHC8-100 Land Here?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:13 am

I found this picture of a Dash 7 landing at Courchevel:


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Photo © Markus Herzig



This is a picture of the sloping runway:


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Photo © Dennis Kikkert



The runway is 1755ft long, but since landings happen only on the upward sloping runway, speed is reduced quite fast.

More runway data: http://gc.kls2.com/airport/LFLJ


Thanks for any hints
 
ZBBYLW
Posts: 1612
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:17 am

RE: Could A DHC8-100 Land Here?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:19 am

While a DHC-8 "COULD" probably land here when you factor in things such as engine out situations then the aircraft may not be legally allowed to land there. I am sure a DH8 could do it, but legally I am not sure... Also they take off down hill so they get extra speed going down... I am not sure performance charts of high performance aircraft integrate the runway gradient into any calculations.
Keep the shinny side up!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18974
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Could A DHC8-100 Land Here?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:32 am

There have been other threads on Courchevel. This was the most recent: Flying Into Courchevel (by Puccini1 Mar 2 2007 in Civil Aviation)#1
 
SkyexRamper
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Could A DHC8-100 Land Here?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:27 pm

I would imagine the only aircraft that would operate out of there would be definately S.T.O.L airplanes which the Dash 8 really isn't.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
8b775zq
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Could A DHC8-100 Land Here?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:44 am

If the DHC8 is not a STOL, then what is it really?
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2534
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

RE: Could A DHC8-100 Land Here?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting Skyexramper (Reply 3):
I would imagine the only aircraft that would operate out of there would be definately S.T.O.L airplanes which the Dash 8 really isn't.

the dash-8 is very much a STOL aircraft.
 
scalebuilder
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:32 pm

RE: Could A DHC8-100 Land Here?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 5):
the dash-8 is very much a STOL aircraft.

Absolutely!!
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
northstardc4m
Posts: 2724
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

RE: Could A DHC8-100 Land Here?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 6):
the dash-8 is very much a STOL aircraft.

Absolutely!!

once again, no it is not a true STOL aircraft. The definition of STOL (NATO) is:
Short Take-Off and Landing (décollage et atterrissage courts) is the ability of an aircraft to clear a 15 m (50 ft) obstacle within 450 m (1,500 ft) of commencing take-off or, in landing, to stop within 450 m (1,500 ft) after passing over a 15 m (50 ft) obstacle.

The slightly less obscure FAA-proposed version:
STOL Takeoff distance of: 700' for aircraft under 500lbs MTOW, 1,200' for aircraft 5,001-15,000lbs MTOW, 1,800' for aircraft 15,001lbs MTOW or more.

The FAA version was never adopted, but it was the basis for the STOL aircraft designs of the 60s and 70s.

Just as a point of comparison:

Dash 7-100 MTOW takeoff distance, 0'ASL, ISA: 2,250'. With STOL payload (50 passengers, 2 hours fuel+reserves): 1,775' (MTOW=44,000lbs, STOL TOW= 37,600lbs)
Dash 8-100 MTOW takeoff distance, 0'ASL, ISA: 3,110'. (MTOW=33,000lbs)
DHC-6-300 MTOW takeoff distance, 0'ASL, ISA, STOL Flap setting: 700', Standard Flap setting: 950' (MTOW=12,500lbs)

Would i want to try a Dash 8 into Courchevel, no f***ing way! Even a Dash 7 would be load restricted.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
davidkunzVIE
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:32 am

RE: Could A DHC8-100 Land Here?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:20 am

Tyrolean had Dash-7 service to Courchevel in the nineties.
DH3 DH4 CR1 CR2 CR7 CR9 F70 732 733 734 73G 738 752 762 763 772 742 743 319 320 321 333 343
 
Oykie
Posts: 1565
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

RE: Could A DHC8-100 Land Here?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting 8B775ZQ (Reply 4):
If the DHC8 is not a STOL, then what is it really?

When the Dash-8 was being developed, airlines was not that interested in STOL capability. The airlines wanted cheaper turboprop, and the Dash-7 was an expensive plane. The Dash-8 is cheaper both to build and in operation. STOL capability was abandoned since most airplanes in this segment has no use fo it.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18974
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Could A DHC8-100 Land Here?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 6):
Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 5):
the dash-8 is very much a STOL aircraft.

Absolutely!!

No, the Dash 8 has never been considered a true STOL aircraft. The Dash 7 definitely was designed for STOL operations.
 
thepilot
Posts: 1191
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:34 am

RE: Could A DHC8-100 Land Here?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:54 am

do any DHC-6 twin otters go into Courchevel? Also, I wonder, would it theoretically be possible for a DHC-7 to land in Lukla? Just curious...
From YVR
 
legacy135
Posts: 966
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 11:06 pm

RE: Could A DHC8-100 Land Here?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:10 am

Don't waist to much time about what a STOL aircraft is and what not. The fact is, the Dash 7 can be considered "safe enough" to meet commercial OPS requirement in Courchevel, while the Dash 8 can't. Let me explain why:

Any commercial operation needs to meet the required take off performance. This includes:
- All engine go
- Accelerate Stop (Accelerate to decision speed, loose an engine and come to a stop on the remaining part of the runway)
- Accelerate Go (Accelerate to decision speed, loose and engine and continue your take off safely)

Any take off has to be aborted, if "VMC G" (Minimum Control Speed Ground) is not met. Otherwise it will leave the runway and crash. It for sure can't be rotated either, before Minimum Control Air is reached, otherwise you lift off and crash right away. Here we come to the big problem for any Multi Engine Take Off in Courchevel. Due to the slope, the Take Off can't be aborted, once initiated. So, Accelerate Stop you can forget for any aircraft taking off in Courchevel. This for the very simple reason, once the aircraft comes in the slope, there will be no way to bring it to a stop. It has to lift off or will crash at the end of the runway.


All engine go would probably be met also for the Dash 8. As the Dash 7 was successfully operated in Courchevel for years, I think we do not need to debate if it meets or not  Wink

Accelerate Go on the Dash 7 isn't a big issue, as the aircraft will lift off in Courchevel anyhow on the 3 remaining engines (more details at the end). The Dash 8 on the other hand has the big problem, that between a certain speed and Minimum Control Speed Ground, it ends up uncontrollable but the take off could not be aborted either.

The Dash 7 had a Minimum Control Speed Ground Issue in Couchevel as well. The thing was, that loosing one of the outboard engines below a certain speed would not allow to keep the aircraft straight. So Tyrolean developed a procedure which was finally accepted by the authorities and allowed them to fly safely for years in and out of Courchevel.
Their procedure was to bring both inboard engines to take off power, but the outboard ones only to a reduced setting, allowing them still to keep straight if one of them was lost. At Minimum Control Speed Ground, the assisting pilot had then to advance the two outboard throttles as well to take off power. So in fact, they started their take off roll in Courchevel with a partially reduced power setting, which was brought up during the roll.

Tyrolean demonstrate here that even unconventional procedures can give a safe and successful operation, if it is adapted seriously and the crews well trained for.

Cheers
Legacy135  Wink
 
legacy135
Posts: 966
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 11:06 pm

RE: Could A DHC8-100 Land Here?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 11):
do any DHC-6 twin otters go into Courchevel? Also, I wonder, would it theoretically be possible for a DHC-7 to land in Lukla? Just curious...

About 6 to 7 years ago they tried to create an airline, if I remember right it was "Alp Azure" or so. They flew a Twin Otter in and out of Courchevel, but not very long....... for the same issue I described already above: Minimum Control Speed Ground.

They had a ferry flight to GVA and during the take off the crew wanted to do an exercise, simulating an engine failure. They successfully demonstrated that their calculation presented to the authority about control-ability of the aircraft on one engine was wrong: They plane departed in the snow and one wing was broken off.

Flying in Courchevel is fun, but their is also a risk. On approach there comes the point where no Go Around is possible anymore, on departure no abortion is possible either. So in either case it has to work on the first attempt. Probably the best and only workhorse to fly there commercially is a Dash 7 as it eliminates basically any need to abort a take off.

Cheers
Legacy135  Wink

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