jycarlisle
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DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:03 am

Good Sunday morning/afternoon everyone,

I was reading in this morning's Travel section of the NY Times that DL is planning on starting a non-stop from JFK to TLV next March, (being that they already service this non-stop route from ATL.) Does anyone have more information on this? (I.e., Fleet use, times, etc.?)

Thanks,
Jeremy Carlisle
"CHANGE IS: CLEAN PLANES AND DIRTY MARTINIS" (DL)
 
LAXintl
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:10 am

Announced back in April


Delta Builds on Success in Tel Aviv with New Nonstop Service from New York
Delta becomes only U.S. carrier to offer nonstop service from two U.S. gateways to Israel

NEW YORK, April 18, 2007 -- Delta Air Lines -- America's fastest growing international airline -- will offer customers a second daily nonstop flight between the United States and Israel with service between New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport and Tel Aviv, effective March 10, 2008*. The new flight builds on Delta's successful launch of nonstop flights between Atlanta and Tel Aviv in 2006 and will position Delta as the only U.S. airline to offer customers nonstop service from two U.S. gateways to Israel.


http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10648
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stylo777
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:14 am

A big money-maker for sure!
 
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CV880
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:20 am

DL 086 JFK-TLV 21.10-14.55
DL087 TLV_JFK 00.20-0540AM
 
flydreamliner
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:42 am

I have a question. What are they using to fly this route? In theory, a 767-300ER could make the nearly 5,700 sm, but winds across the atlantic could certainly stretch this pretty thin on the westbound trip. This is really a route they should have a 777 on, but as we all know, their 777 is stretched as thin as it can get. How are they going to pull this one off?
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 4):
What are they using to fly this route?

Flight 86/87 will be operated by the 763ER.
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flydreamliner
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 5):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 4):
What are they using to fly this route?

Flight 86/87 will be operated by the 763ER.

That'll be stretching the legs of the 763ER on the west bound trip. I wonder if they will have the winglets on any of their 763er's, by then, supposedly those help the range out a bit. I suppose the smaller 763ER is a safer choice on this route, competing against 2x daily 777s on CO from EWR and an El Al 744 from JFK.

Does this mean the end of Delta's codeshare with LY on JFK-TLV?
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
That'll be stretching the legs of the 763ER on the west bound trip.

Definitely, but there really are no other options. The 764 wouldn't have the legs without restrictions - and the 777 is too limited in available a/c.
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LAXintl
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
Does this mean the end of Delta's codeshare with LY on JFK-TLV?

LY-DL codeshare partnership ends this October.


As far as the 763, remember TWA operated TLV-JFK with the type, in addition Israir in recent years has also operated the model on the route, so it can obviously be done.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jfk69
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8):
As far as the 763, remember TWA operated TLV-JFK with the type, in addition Israir in recent years has also operated the model on the route, so it can obviously be done.

I rarely recall the Israir flights having any issues and those flights go out full every time.
 
LGAtoIND
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:46 am

This flight should be a great addition to DL's transatlantic network. It always seemed like a no-brainer route to me, but then again what do I know?
 
jycarlisle
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport and Tel Aviv, effective March 10, 2008*

Three days after my 31st Birthday. Gives me something to save up for!  Smile My only reserve about flying a US Airline over to Israel is the security factors versus that of the "all secure" LY. I am sure that I will have nothing to be worried about though.

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 5):
Flight 86/87 will be operated by the 763ER.



Quoting B4REAL (Reply 7):
and the 777 is too limited in available a/c.

I am hoping that DL will have enough increased profits to purchase more T7s for these (or this) operation even though a 767 is feasible. Just wishful thinking.  Smile

Thanks for the information.

Cheers,
Jeremy Carlisle
"CHANGE IS: CLEAN PLANES AND DIRTY MARTINIS" (DL)
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting Jycarlisle (Reply 11):
am hoping that DL will have enough increased profits to purchase more T7s for these (or this) operation even though a 767 is feasible. Just wishful thinking.

You, me, DL route planners, and every DL armchair route planner here on Airliners.net.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
JBLUA320
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
competing against 2x daily 777s on CO from EWR and an El Al 744 from JFK.

Don't forget LY's EWR service as well-- usually a 744.

JBLU
 
tsnamm
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
and an El Al 744 from JFK.

They actually run 3x daily from JFK 2-744 and 1-772...PLUS 1-744 from EWR
 
flydreamliner
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 9):
Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8):
As far as the 763, remember TWA operated TLV-JFK with the type, in addition Israir in recent years has also operated the model on the route, so it can obviously be done.

I rarely recall the Israir flights having any issues and those flights go out full every time.



Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 14):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
and an El Al 744 from JFK.

They actually run 3x daily from JFK 2-744 and 1-772...PLUS 1-744 from EWR

Wow. I always knew there was demand there, but that is impressive. I had no idea El Al had such a big operation into greater NYC.

Out of curiousity, does anyone know if US has looked at serving PHL-TLV once their A332s arrive, I am certain they could find demand, both O and D and connecting, and if UA has looked at serving it from IAD? It seems like TLV is a market where demand still outstrips supply.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
That'll be stretching the legs of the 763ER on the west bound trip.

True, though ATL-LOS will be even longer for the 763, at around 150nm more than JFK-TLV.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
I wonder if they will have the winglets on any of their 763er's,

They have not yet officially announced that intend, though I'd say that's just a matter of time.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
I suppose the smaller 763ER is a safer choice on this route,

No, DL simply doesn't have anything larger available. Besides, with the EL AL codeshar ending, I can't help but wonder how many pax on EL AL's flights are actually coming from Delta.
 
Viscount724
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 4):
have a question. What are they using to fly this route? In theory, a 767-300ER could make the nearly 5,700 sm, but winds across the atlantic could certainly stretch this pretty thin on the westbound trip.

AC and LY have been using the 767 TLV-YYZ for years. That's about 100 miles further than TLV-JFK.
 
Viscount724
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 4):
have a question. What are they using to fly this route? In theory, a 767-300ER could make the nearly 5,700 sm, but winds across the atlantic could certainly stretch this pretty thin on the westbound trip.

AC and LY have been using the 767 TLV-YYZ for years, about 100 naut. mi. further than JFK. LY also uses the 767 TLV-MIA nonstop which is about 800 naut. mi. further than JFK.
 
jfk787nyc
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:32 am

EL AL runs Schedule Three Times Daily JFK - TLV
1/3 of the year they run Five Flights Daily JFK - TLV

EL AL also runs Three Times Daily 747-200 ALL CARGO. All White Livery.

Once a day to EWR.

Israir flies three times weekly But, everyone hates there service People in Israel are scared to fly them, People in the United States are scared to fly them.

Continental is lucky on this route because they are the only actual competitor to EL AL on this route.
If you want to fly non-stop and you dont want to fly EL AL as alot of people dont want to take there hassle they fly Continental.

Continental has a very big minus, They are departing from EWR not JFK.

This is where Delta would like to come in. I believe the reason they are flying to TLV on a 767 is because lack of aircraft.
But, this will be a very very very big route for them. As it is much easier to fly from JFK for people than EWR.

Brooklyn, has the largest congestion of people that actually travel to Israel than any other place in the world.
People from Brooklyn must pay $35 just to get to EWR you have to travel over two bridges and driving there is close to 40-60 mins depending on traffic.

As soon as the 777LR is going to come on board with Delta they would transfer these to existing routes and take the 777ER from there and go double daily. But, I guess that is only if they dont get China.

DELTA is going to make a killing from this route alone. It will most likely not effect EL AL, EL AL has very loyal customers that would like to give EL AL money. But, It will definitly effect Continental because those people who fly often most likely have SKYTEAM and now they have an alternate airline flying from there home airport.

ATL - TLV is a flight for connecting passangers from all over the country. Delta's flight from NEW YORK is strictly local. If they want to make money in New York they must fly this route.
 
JBLUA320
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 19):
Continental has a very big minus, They are departing from EWR not JFK.

I don't think service out of EWR is putting CO at a disadvantage -- EWR has repeatedly been known as "New York City's" airport, in terms of ease of access. For Long Islanders traveling to Israel, JFK is certainly easier, but for every Long Islander traveling to Israel, there is also someone from North and Central NJ traveling from EWR, too. With CO's 777s stretched as thin as they are, they wouldn't be running 2x daily to TLV if it wasn't making some serious cash.

JBLU
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:44 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 4):
What are they using to fly this route? In theory, a 767-300ER could make the nearly 5,700 sm, but winds across the atlantic could certainly stretch this pretty thin on the westbound trip.

The route is a non-questionable one. Israir flies the JFK-TLV flight with a 763. Over the years LY, and TW have used the 762, and 763 on the route as well. It is a shame that only now we are seeing more airlines make a profitable use of their 752, and 763 fleets. Until a few years ago Continental was very widebody heavy, with a very select few TATL 752 routes. Today the story is very, very different. Delta has taken a lead pioneered by TW(JFK-LIS, among others), CO(EWR-LIS, among others), BA(JFK-BHX, among others), and FI(JFK-KEF, among others) on the TATL market introducing the 752 on TATL operations. AA(BOS-MAN, among others), NW(DTW-BRU, among others)and US(PHL-LIS, among others) only recently have begun to operate their respective 752 operations across the pond.

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 20):
EWR has repeatedly been known as "New York City's" airport, in terms of ease of access.

It is a relative term, not shared by all. Myself being one of those living in Manhattan, that loathes the idea of anything Newark.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
bobnwa
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 19):
Brooklyn, has the largest congestion of people that actually travel to Israel than any other place in the world.
People from Brooklyn must pay $35 just to get to EWR you have to travel over two bridges and driving there is close to 40-60 mins depending on traffic.

Do you know this for a fact, that Brooklyn has the largest congestion of people who actually travel to Israel. It very well may be true, but please list the source.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 22):
Do you know this for a fact, that Brooklyn has the largest congestion of people who actually travel to Israel. It very well may be true, but please list the source.
Bobnwa,

This is the proof to back up what JFK787NYC was trying to get across. I hope this helps prove his point.

Courtesy of WIKIPEDIA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish-Americans

Slight correction as Los Angeles as a whole is the largest single county in the country for Jewish Americans
Los Angeles, California 564,700>By population the largest Jewish American community in the country

The Queens, Brooklyn, Long Island areas as a whole have the largest percentage of Jewish Americans in a combined area
*Kings County, New York (BROOKLYN)379,000
*Nassau County, New York (LONG ISLAND) 207,000
*New York County, New York (MANHATTAN) 314,000
*Queens County, New York (ASTORIA, LGA) 230,000
Total = 1,130,000
Total w/o Manhattan = 816,000

Indeed JFK and its catchment area has the lions share of the traffic.

-JD

[Edited 2007-06-11 00:30:53]
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
bobnwa
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 23):
This is the proff to back up what JFK787NYC was trying to get across. I hope this helps prove his point

I'm not questioning the large Jewish population in Brooklyn, but I am questioning the "who actually travel to Israel part"
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 24):
I'm not questioning the large Jewish population in Brooklyn, but I am questioning the "who actually travel to Israel part"

Got It.... Can anyone on here prove this point?

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
rwy04lga
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:52 am

Oy geVelt! They should get more 777's and be well.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
jycarlisle
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 25):
Can anyone on here prove this point?

If I had a penny for everyone of my (Jewish) friends from Queens and Long Island (not to mention Brooklyn) who travel to Israel and a penny for everytime they do, I would be a rich man.

Cheers,
Jeremy Carlisle
"CHANGE IS: CLEAN PLANES AND DIRTY MARTINIS" (DL)
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:35 am

Quoting Jycarlisle (Reply 27):
If I had a penny for everyone of my (Jewish) friends from Queens and Long Island (not to mention Brooklyn) who travel to Israel and a penny for everytime they do, I would be a rich man.

I fully agree with you. I have a number of friends who are members of the Temple Emanuel, they go to Israel very often, I would venture to say 2 to 3x per year. They for the most part take British Airways, and KLM. However, I know of 2 of them that are going to be taking the new Delta Air Lines service from JFK. El Al has a somewhat awkward reputation. To them they say that El Al is not the best, and the service they receive on BA and KL is better than that of both LY and CO.

Now the 2 that I am talking about that will be taking Delta also use Delta for frequent business trips to Paris, Milan, Bucharest, and Amsterdam. They in the same breath would not travel to Newark to fly Continental. Reason being for the most part is that in their opinion, and a opinion I myself share is that Newark is not a well kept facility, it is a mess to get to from the UES, if you are stuck in a delay I think Newark has to be one of the worst airports in the World to be stuck in, and transportation if not arranged in advance is a mess from Newark. The Taxis at EWR are questionable at best.

Delta left the Tel Aviv market prematurely in the past. They are and have been intent on re-establishing there presence with the recent addition of ATL-TLV, and the upcoming JFK-TLV.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 19):
Delta's flight from NEW YORK is strictly local. If they want to make money in New York they must fly this route.

True, but dont forget this will add additional connecting options from places like SFO, LAX, SEA, and so on.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 19):
Continental is lucky on this route because they are the only actual competitor to EL AL on this route.

Israir has flown the route for a number of years.

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 14):
They actually run 3x daily from JFK 2-744 and 1-772...PLUS 1-744 from EWR

This would speak to the volume of traffic that JFK generates to Tel Aviv.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:53 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
AC and LY have been using the 767 TLV-YYZ for years. That's about 100 miles further than TLV-JFK

Mind you also that LY has some super long range 767-200ER that can operate MIA-TLV non stop without restriction, so LY may not be a fair comparable in the statement above.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
jfk69
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:30 am

There are a few ways that the Jews in the NYC area choose the airlines they fly to Israel.

1) Security of LY.
You will find many of the elder generation and first timers to Israel book heavily on the fact that LY is known as the safest airline around. These same people also associate LY as Israel's airline and must support it through and through.

2) Location.
Many Long Islanders, Queens and Brooklyn residents will not even think about trekking out to EWR for a flight if they have half a dozen to choose from leaving from JFK. On the other hand you have many New Jersey, Manhattan, and Westchester (Includes the Monsey areas) who will do anything to fly out of EWR. With CO 2X daily and LY once a day it is no problem at all.

3) Price.
This may be the most obvious for some but not for others. For some it can be about finding the cheapest damn way to Israel possible This can be via Israir or it can be with Aerosvit connecting in Kiev (Starting to become common by the way). For these people, logistics is not as much as a problem because they are saving the cash. Others will book with the European carriers because they may have frequent flyer miles or status to keep up, or they may want to spend a day in Europe as a stop over. Many times though the European connections are cheap enough to make it worth while to not fly direct. And of course you will always find the people who will just spend whatever the hell it is as long as the times work out and it gets them to TLV.

I am sure more reasons are running around but I feel these are the main three.
 
Focus
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:23 pm

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 20):
but for every Long Islander traveling to Israel, there is also someone from North and Central NJ traveling from EWR, too.



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 30):
On the other hand you have many New Jersey, Manhattan, and Westchester (Includes the Monsey areas) who will do anything to fly out of EWR.

Not to mention Philly. As long as US or anyone else don't start a PHL-TLV service, getting to EWR (which is right off the NJ tpk) from Philadelphia is much much easier than the hassle of going to JFK.

--Focus
 
amirs
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:32 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 21):
The route is a non-questionable one. Israir flies the JFK-TLV flight with a 763. Over the years LY, and TW have used the 762, and 763 on the route as well. It is a shame that only now we are seeing more airlines make a profitable use of their 752, and 763 fleets. Until a few years ago Continental was very widebody heavy, with a very select few TATL 752 routes. Today the story is very, very different. Delta has taken a lead pioneered by TW(JFK-LIS, among others), CO(EWR-LIS, among others), BA(JFK-BHX, among others), and FI(JFK-KEF, among others) on the TATL market introducing the 752 on TATL operations. AA(BOS-MAN, among others), NW(DTW-BRU, among others)and US(PHL-LIS, among others) only recently have begun to operate their respective 752 operations across the pond.

LY has been using 767 and 752 for many years over the pond.

They flew TLV - montreal and Toronto throughout the late 80's and 90's.
They has STN - EWR flights with 752 in the 90's.
Many TLV - JFK/EWR with 767 as well.
 
JBLUA320
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:06 pm

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 30):
1) Security of LY.
You will find many of the elder generation and first timers to Israel book heavily on the fact that LY is known as the safest airline around. These same people also associate LY as Israel's airline and must support it through and through.

Yep, true statement. My parents won't fly any other airline to TLV than LY, as with all their friends, my relatives, people from my Temple. If you "fly any other airline, you put your life in your hands." Stupid, I know... but when you look at the generation, it's not completely unfounded.


JBLU
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting Amirs (Reply 32):
They has STN - EWR flights with 752 in the 90's.

That was in the latter part of the 1990's, and was for a short period. The service was not continual. LY also flew FCO-JFK with the 742 in the latter part of the 1990's.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
jycarlisle
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 28):
El Al has a somewhat awkward reputation.

Yes, some of my friends will only fly LY for the pure and simple fact of security and its what they are used to. However the majority of my friends only fly European carriers (mostly BA, KL, AZ, AF, Swiss, etc.) because they really dislike the service and professionalism of LY. I did mention to one of my friends yesterday about my excitement of the added JFK DL non-stop and he seemed very interested in taking it.

Personally I would like to give all DL, LY, and Israir a try and then go from there. On the other hand, I am sure that the new DL route will sell well for a lot of us here.

Cheers,
Jeremy Carlisle
"CHANGE IS: CLEAN PLANES AND DIRTY MARTINIS" (DL)
 
klwright69
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:15 am

Of course LY is famous for security. But I am sure there are added security requirements for all airlines serving Israel. I think this is a lot of perception.
 
rjpieces
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:14 pm

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 19):
Continental has a very big minus, They are departing from EWR not JFK.

Nonsense...The NYC metropolitan area is large enough to justify nonstop TLV flights from JFK and EWR. There is a reason El Al flies to both airports, and that CO operates 2 daily 777s to TLV which are rumored to be some of CO's most profitable routes. There have even been articles talking about CO having so much cargo on EWR-TLV that it sometimes has to charter other planes to fly the cargo there...

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 21):
It is a relative term, not shared by all. Myself being one of those living in Manhattan, that loathes the idea of anything Newark.

Ehhh, I used to feel this way but EWR's not bad. I flew LY 28/27 a few months ago and found the airport to be more pleasant than I remembered. To be fair, flying out of EWR wasn't my choice (I live 15 minutes from JFK)...But I made the drive to EWR in about 30 minutes which isn't bad at all considering that it could have taken well over an hour if it was rush hour.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 24):
I'm not questioning the large Jewish population in Brooklyn, but I am questioning the "who actually travel to Israel part"

Not sure if there is any way to measure statistics on this by borough, but I think a more appropriate statement would be that the NYC-metropolitan area has the highest concentration of people travelling to Israel of any place in the world.
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:33 pm

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 36):
Of course LY is famous for security. But I am sure there are added security requirements for all airlines serving Israel. I think this is a lot of perception.

There is added security but it's just not the same level. As has been discussed many times here, LY procedure questions the passengers unlike any other airline in the world. if you are flying AA/BA from JFK-LHR-TLV there is no way in hell you are getting anywhere near the same security as LY.
 
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:15 pm

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 19):
Continental has a very big minus, They are departing from EWR not JFK.

Huh?nCO is pretty successful with the route, two daily 777s. CO has 20n777-200ERs, and there are only two routes that get more than one dailyn777 frequency, IAH-LGW and EWR-TLV. That should say something to thenrevenue CO generates, also keep in mind CO did not suspend flights tonIsrael during the 2000-2001 intifada, CO kept the route as DL ran away. That should buy them some loyalty from frequent travelers, such as Wolf Blitzer whom someone posted an interview here where he mentioned how he enjoyed flying CO to Tel Aviv.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 19):
Brooklyn,nhasnthe largest congestion of people that actually travel to Israelnthannany other place in the world.
People from Brooklyn must pay $35njust to get to EWR you have to travel over two bridges and drivingnthere is close to 40-60 mins depending on traffic.

The Brooklyn Orthodox Community spends much of it's time outside Brooklyn either in the Lakewood NJ or Moonsie NY areas, especially on the weekends. The Rockland county communities are much closer to EWR.

NJ's Jewish population is also very respectable, which is why El Al has been flying to EWR for almost 20 years.
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:30 pm

According to the Wikipedia page linked above, NJ has the second largest Jewish population (percentage wise) in the US.

In this article from the New York Times it talks about the Jewish population of NYC dropping (below 1 Million in 2003) , and how the region surrounding the City is where the population is moving. It does include NJ in the study, however it does state that in Northeastern NJ surrounding the City of Newark the Jewish population is about 417,000.

That's just Northeastern NJ.

http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3066
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:33 pm

RJ Peices:

Continental is making a tremendous amount of money on this route WHY. Because people like me I travel to Israel Three-Four times yearly DO NOT LIKE TO FLY EL AL. I am a jew but I do not like to travel with religious jews. They put on winter clothes in the summer. I also get tired of EL AL security. I have an Israeli passport, My parents are Russian/Israeli/American Jews. Migrated from Russia to Israel to America. I was born in the United States. When I come to EL AL security they start complaining how am i an Israeli citizen that does not speak Hebrew. It takes me 25-30 mins to explain myself.

I live in Brooklyn but I have to travel 45 mins and pay $35 in gas and tolls to get to Newark just to travel to Israel non-stop on a alternate airline other than EL AL. Plus I like flying on Friday with arrival on Saturday. NO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE.

The Friday flight is also twice a day but, these flights are the most expensive of the week.
Yes, Continental does have more security on this route but nothing like EL AL.

In the 90s from JFK-TLV there was Delta, TowerAir, TWA & EL AL plus all the European airlines which are usually even cheaper.

Now, there is only EL AL and they have the majority of the share.

Continental also has tremendous amount of connecting passangers from around the country on the 4 o clock flight. People from the Tri-States area try to take the 11 pm flight.

Delta already has a strictly connecting passangers flight to TLV out of ATL. This JFK flight will be New York-TLV.

Continental I do not believe that there bulk amount of money from Cargo on this route. EL AL is very very cheap for cargo, Because they run Three Times daily 747 full cargo planes into the Tri-State area. If they make money on cargo it is from connecting cargo from Texas, or other parts of the country.
 
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:40 pm

STT757 & RJPeices


I know Continental makes good money on this route.

I am trying to explain that Continental will have a problem when Delta comes on the route from JFK.

I believe Delta will start taking business from Continental as soon as the route opens up. I am sure Continental knows this also.
 
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:45 pm

CO did well with EWR-TLV when DL was flying MD-11s and TWA flying 767-300s from JFK to Tel Aviv in the late 1990s, I think they will be alright now.
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:54 pm

STT757

I do not know which state you are from, But, there is no possible way NEWARK has 417'000 Jews. Newark is the slums of New Jersey.

That article is also some anti-semitic nonsense. You have to come to New York and see how the Jews live. They do not live in poverty. There is something very very wrong with that article.

And, The reason Religious Jews go to the Suburb's on the weekends is because they like to spend Shabbot with there whole family. Religious families usually consist of Parent's and 5-6-7 Children. Now imagine when those Brothers and Sisters get married to other large families?

Got it, They go for Shabbot they do not fly on the weekend. And on the weekdays they work in either Brooklyn Manhatten, or Queens.

Besides, Most people in Brooklyn, Queens have Delta SkyMiles. Yes, they use Continental to fly to Israel, Now they can fly Delta.

Does anyone know when Continental actually started flying to Israel? I do not think they were even flying before the Second Intifada.

The reason Delta stop flying was because they were having financials problems after September 11. I do not believe they dropped the route before that.

But, they always made money on the route. They CodeShared every flight EL AL had to JFK.
 
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 44):
I do not know which state you are from, But, there is no possible way NEWARK has 417'000 Jews. Newark is the slums of New Jersey.

I said surrounding Newark, Newark is in Essex County which is one of the wealthiest in the State. The home that is depicted as the home of Tony Sorpano is in North Caldwell NJ, which is in Essex County. The Same County as the City of Newark.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 44):
Does anyone know when Continental actually started flying to Israel? I do not think they were even flying before the Second Intifada.

1999.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 44):
The reason Delta stop flying was because they were having financials problems after September 11. I do not believe they dropped the route before that.

DL dropped JFK-TLV , it does not matter if it was the second intifada or Al Qeada that influenced their decision.

[Edited 2007-06-12 16:10:05]
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 19):
Brooklyn, has the largest congestion of people that actually travel to Israel than any other place in the world.
People from Brooklyn must pay $35 just to get to EWR you have to travel over two bridges and driving there is close to 40-60 mins depending on traffic.

A follow up to my original question. I imagine that the airlines flying to Israel from anywhere in the world carry a large number of passengers who are.
Religious pilgrims who are not Jewish.
Business people from all over the world.
People who live in Israel who are returning.
Regular tourists that live everywhere.
etc.

Example, there are at least four widebodies every day from LHR-TLV. I doubt very many of the passengers originated in Brooklyn.

I don't doubt that Brooklyn has a huge Jewish population, but as far has having the largest number of passengers in the world who fly to Israel I doubt it. I'll have to see some numbers that prove that.
 
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:48 pm

BOBNWA:

You are one hundred percent right

But, Here is how it goes in real life.

Five Biggest Markets (Cities) for travel to Israel:

New York-Largest in the World- I really do not have to explain anything about this market.

Paris- EL AL flies sometimes Four Times Daily. Jews in France are not really spread out most of them are in Paris. Big market as the Jews in France hate France and hate AirFrance, AirFrance does not even want to build up this route even tho the market is so big from the HUB. AirFrance flies double daily a320 nothing special at all.
Jews in France have been trying to start lives in other places. Alot of emigration from Paris - Tel Aviv & Miami.
Big disappointment on Frances part honestly


London- British Airways Double Daily (Two 777) I believe they connect alot of people from the US-TLV, Not as much as LH, But they have alot of people that fly direct from London. I believe EL AL flies double daily as well.

Germany-Depends on the airline. EL AL, and a couple of others fly all around Germany all are making money,
Lufthansa Double Daily Frankfurt Huge Widebodies(Mix 747, a346)- They make a killing from New York. They are very competitive and if you come at around 5-6pm to Lufthansa terminal in JFK you will see that 75% of the flight departing at that time is transferring to Tel Aviv. They are usually much cheaper on this route than the Non-Stops.

Lufthansa loves this route so much that they made Swiss actually gain market share also from NYC-TLV. Swiss started flying double Daily also widebodies (A346, A330).

Moscow- Alot of Russian Jews live in Israel, Past 30 years big emigration. Israel has a population of 7 Million people I believe around 2 million are former Russian Jews. Plus, Russian Jewish Businessman has huge ties with Israel.
The reason why you have EL AL flying Three Times Daily, TransAero flying double daily (Sometimes 747). S7 Airlines Double Daily.

You can actually see around 5-6 TU-154 in Tel Aviv on any given day.


Most European airlines are trying to cash in on US-TLV. 95% of carriers are flying double daily. From Iberia to Alitalia.
The beauty of the European carriers is most of them do not try to pressure the New York market. They try to get cities that do not have non-stop to Tel Aviv. Those are the cities that people have no choice but to stop somewhere.
Like for instance Pennsylvania, Nevada, Texas, Washington. Places like this.
 
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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 40):
According to the Wikipedia page linked above, NJ has the second largest Jewish population (percentage wise) in the US.

So does that mean that all of the Jewish-Americans living in New Jersey fly on Continental?

Quoting STT757 (Reply 45):
The home that is depicted as the home of Tony Sorpano is in North Caldwell NJ, which is in Essex County. The Same County as the City of Newark.

Talk about one extreme to the next! So what was your point?

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RE: DL To Start JFK-TLV Non-stop Next March?

Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 39):
That should buy them some loyalty from frequent travelers, such as Wolf Blitzer whom someone posted an interview here where he mentioned how he enjoyed flying CO to Tel Aviv.

Yeah, I posted that. There are plenty of examples of it...Another is this organization I used to work for. They have leadership trips to Israel every year or so, and they all fly CO BusinessFirst. That is 30-40 premium seats sold on one night alone...There is a huge market from NYC-TLV that everyone from Continental to Lufthansa benefits from.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 41):
I live in Brooklyn but I have to travel 45 mins and pay $35 in gas and tolls to get to Newark just to travel to Israel non-stop on a alternate airline other than EL AL. Plus I like flying on Friday with arrival on Saturday. NO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE.

With all due respect, airlines don't make choices where to fly because of such mundane considerations as your driving preferneces. Delta is flying JFK-TLV because there is a huge NYC-TLV market, and because they are increasing their international flying out of JFK (and ATL). Even once Delta starts their JFK-TLV service, there will be people living in Brooklyn who fly CO EWR-TLV and people who live closer to EWR (say the west side of Manhattan) who will be flying DL JFK-TLV.

And if you love flying JFK-TLV on Friday nights so much, try BA, LH, IB,AZ,OS,LX or any other airline that flies across the Atlantic and connects you to TLV.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 41):
Now, there is only EL AL and they have the majority of the share.

Don't forget Israir.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 41):
Delta already has a strictly connecting passangers flight to TLV out of ATL. This JFK flight will be New York-TLV.

Ummmm, ATL-TLV is not strictly connecting passengers, nor will JFK-TLV be. With so many domestic DL flights into JFK, there will doubtlessly be connecting passengers...Though Delta will probably try to put lower-yielding connecting passengers on one of the flights (not sure which one, as they are operating a 777 on ATL-TLV). It's pretty typical...

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 41):
Continental I do not believe that there bulk amount of money from Cargo on this route. EL AL is very very cheap for cargo, Because they run Three Times daily 747 full cargo planes into the Tri-State area. If they make money on cargo it is from connecting cargo from Texas, or other parts of the country.

With all due respect, how would you know any of this??????? And El Al has 3X daily 747 cargo flights into NYC? I think not.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 42):
I believe Delta will start taking business from Continental as soon as the route opens up. I am sure Continental knows this also.

Sure, that is inevitable. But CO will still thrive on EWR-TLV...And if too many airlines enter the NYC-TLV market, some will eventually pullout....Though probably not CO. Their EWR-TLV service is very, very popular.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 44):
But, there is no possible way NEWARK has 417'000 Jews. Newark is the slums of New Jersey.

The article, and his post, said 417,000 Jews in that part of New Jersey, which sounds about right to me. And don't forget that Newark used to have a huge, huge Jewish population...

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 44):
That article is also some anti-semitic nonsense.

??? Please point out what is anti-semitic in that article (which is from the New York Times btw). If you want anti-semitic nonsense, I suggest opening Non-Aviation and reading any of the Middle East threads...Don't misuse the term; it does a disservice to the many very real acts of anit-semitism which still exist.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 44):
You have to come to New York and see how the Jews live.

??????????????????

Those poverty rates do not surprise me at all. Among the ultra-orthodox families with 7+ kids and parents who work little if at all...That's definitely poverty. Heck, the poverty rate in Israel is pretty high too (~15% IIRC).

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 44):
Yes, they use Continental to fly to Israel, Now they can fly Delta.

Again, a million factors come in to what airline people choose. It's not as simple as you make it out...But yes, people travelling to Israel from Long Island will now have a third nonstop option from JFK-TLV. But I have no doubt that if they went to book it and CO was $300 cheaper than DL on a certain day for whatever reason, they would make the drive out to EWR.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 46):
I don't doubt that Brooklyn has a huge Jewish population, but as far has having the largest number of passengers in the world who fly to Israel I doubt it. I'll have to see some numbers that prove that.

Like I said above, I don't think you can say that about Brooklyn. But it is a legitimate statement to say that the New York City metropolitan area has the largest number of passengers in the world travelling to Israel...Just look at the number of flights alone, most of which are catering to O&D demand. And the non-stop flights alone only account for probably 50% of the market--the rest are flying NYC-XYZ European City-TLV...

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 47):
Big market as the Jews in France hate France and hate AirFrance,

Again, ??????????

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 48):
So does that mean that all of the Jewish-Americans living in New Jersey fly on Continental?

Not at all. I'm sure all of the people travelling to Israel (not just Jewish-Americans, and not all Jewish-Americans travel to Israel regularly) choose whatever airline best meets their needs. If they live right next to EWR, they will probably fly CO or LY from Newark. If they are price concious, they might fly EWR-FRA-TLV for example. Like I've said a few times above, a ton of factors are important in deciding what airline people will fly.
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