centrair
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:40 am

Children's cell phones worry airlines

(some excerpts)

Quote:
As the summer vacation season approaches, airlines are growing increasingly concerned about children bringing cell phones, portable video game consoles and other electronic devices onto planes, as they could interfere with navigation systems.

Airlines are especially concerned about children's cell phones, which contain a built-in crime prevention function that automatically restarts the phone if it is switched off.

In March last year, NTT DoCoMo Inc. introduced the Kids Keitai, which includes a built-in global positioning system that allows the handset to send e-mails or transmit a signal notifying parents of their current location.



Quote:
The latest portable video game consoles, such as the Nintendo DS and Sony's PlayStation Portable, also are potential sources of trouble for airlines as they are equipped with wireless communication devices for online gaming.

But the function is not yet covered in rules on electronic devices on planes set by the Construction and Transport Ministry.

Airlines currently have flight attendants ask passengers using such consoles to turn off the wireless communication function.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070610TDY02003.htm

Yet another debate about mobile products on planes.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
User avatar
N776AU
Posts: 809
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:18 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:59 am

My phone came on on a flight to ATL from LAX and nothing happened. I had taken it out of my pocket and put it in my bag, where I thought it wouldn't turn on. A couple hours into the flight I decided to check it, and it was on. don't know for how long, but it was still on. Then it hit me, "I'll take the battery out".

I'm a smart cookie  optimist 
Careful, Doors Are Closing And Will Not Reopen. Please Wait For The Next Train
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:34 pm

This further confirms my feeling that airlines/aircraft makers must expect many phones to be on during flight. To expect otherwise would be stupid and highly negligent. If an aircraft that is negatively impacted by operating cell phones is involved in an accident because of those phones, and that fact is proven... lawsuit city (in the US at least).

Note that I'm not arguing the merits of bans on using cell phones on airplanes; I'm just saying that no competent person in airline management can expect people to turn off phones during flight. It would be like driving and ignoring the possibility of jaywalkers.
 
CXfirst
Posts: 2875
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:13 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:43 pm

what about laptops with wireless, wouldn't that be the same as the PSP and DS wireless system?

-CXfirst
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:58 pm

Quoting Analog (Reply 2):
This further confirms my feeling that airlines/aircraft makers must expect many phones to be on during flight. To expect otherwise would be stupid and highly negligent.

How do you figure this, exactly? Most aircraft currently in service were designed long before cell phones existed for the traveling public.
 
georgebush
Posts: 488
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:15 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:00 pm

I usually always forget to turn my phone off, and guess what I'm still alive!!
Al Gore invented global warming.
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:17 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 4):
How do you figure this, exactly? Most aircraft currently in service were designed long before cell phones existed for the traveling public.

I'm not claiming that aircraft are vulnerable to crash because cellphone RF interference, but if they are, and it's known, then operating them would be negligent (unless you confiscate cell phones from all pax). It does not matter when the aircraft was designed. Of course this is a matter of degree.

Imagine an executive in court: "Well, we knew it was dangerous to operate, but the design was old, so we felt it was okay not to fix it."

Luckily it's pretty clear that cellphones are quite harmless; I'd bet the vast majority (>90%; source: my rear end) of flights go out with active cellphones.
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting Analog (Reply 6):
I'm not claiming that aircraft are vulnerable to crash because cellphone RF interference, but if they are, and it's known, then operating them would be negligent (unless you confiscate cell phones from all pax).

No, it would be negligent if the airline KNEW that a cellphone was on and operated in contravention of the FARs.
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:58 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 7):

No, it would be negligent if the airline KNEW that a cellphone was on and operated in contravention of the FARs.

I would say the anyone running an airline KNOWS that x% of flights will go out with cellphones on, and that y% of flights have pax who will operate cellphones during takeoff, flight, and/or landing, where x and y are non-trivial percentages. Any airlines that operate otherwise live in a fantasy world where everyone follows the rules all the time. 100% a priori knowledge of the event is not required for one to be expected to act to prevent harm from such an event (irrespective of FARs).

By the article posted by the OP, it seems that ANA and JAL know that cellphones are operated on their aircraft. Of course on domestic flights no FARs are violated, right.  Smile
 
Venezuela747
Posts: 1374
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:36 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:03 pm

I have left my phone accidentally on, and when I check it halfway throguh the flight it never picks up signal.
And also I have turned my laptop on thats got wireles, the Wi-Fi never picks up anything and I did look up devices once on bluetooth and it only picked up someone else's laptop but no aircraft equipment
ROLL TIDE!!!
 
siromega
Posts: 564
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:57 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:03 pm

Hmmm... I hope the iPhone has the ability to turn wifi and the cell phone functionality off.
 
n710ps
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:09 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:06 pm

I routinely leave my cells on in flight but not normally on purpose. I usually turn my cell off by the time we are number two to go or if we are expecting to roll from brakes release all the way I turn it off as soon as we have the salute from the ramp.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:09 pm

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 10):


Hmmm... I hope the iPhone has the ability to turn wifi and the cell phone functionality off.

The HTC Hermes (Win Mobile) has individual on/off controls for the phone/3G data, WiFi, and bluetooth. Pretty neat implementation. The WiFi saves $40/month in data charges.
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 920
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:43 pm

99.9999% of devices won't cause any damage on 99.9999% of flights - but on some day a broken plane (say with frayed antenna shielding) with a high power cell (They go into higher power mode when they can't get a signal) or a broken RC toy or broken $5 FM radio could cause interference with voice, navigation, etc. That interference could make a bad situation worse. Then blammo a crash caused by a cell phone.

Everyone knows that in regular use a cell phone won't cause anything bad to happen to a plane.

---

But I have an CB walkie talkie that when plugged into the cigarette lighter of my car causes the horn not to work. Anything else plugged in - no problem. I can't even come up with a good explanation on why anything would cause a very simple circuit (the horn) to fail.
 
bimmerkid19
Posts: 284
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:43 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:45 pm

Hmm imagine this,, WIFI inflight. On December 26th 2006, I flew on KE from ORD to ICN That was one of the last days that the Connexion by Boeing Service was operating. I had wireless for almost the entire flight and plus an inseat power port .. in Economy.. Nice
Last flights: LH 3738 MUC - ZRH , LH 3749 ZRH - MUC . Upcoming: EK 50 MUC - DXB 3-aug. and EK 322 DXB - ICN 7- Aug.
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:58 pm

Quoting Bimmerkid19 (Reply 14):
Hmm imagine this,, WIFI inflight. On December 26th 2006, I flew on KE from ORD to ICN That was one of the last days that the Connexion by Boeing Service was operating. I had wireless for almost the entire flight and plus an inseat power port .. in Economy.. Nice

Too bad that is no more. It was fast (bandwidth & latency) enought to run Skype, barely.
 
hjulicher
Posts: 649
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:26 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:28 am

On a British Airways flight that I was on, they repeatedly asked customers to make sure their cell-phones were switched off during the approach pattern as it was clear that they were having difficulty communicating with the tower. After two announcements that the FA made, the pilot actually came, (in a somewhat distressed voice) and asked all passengers to check and verify that their phones were off and not in a transmit mode. So I guess cell-phones do pose a danger to flights, and sometimes it's very obvious when it occurs.
LH 442
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:32 am

The reason why cell phones are not allowed on in-flight is for CYA purposes....

If they were really that dangerous, then phones wouldn't be allowed on a plane, at all. Period. However, in a perfect situation, a cell phone could exascerbate a problem.

Also, would you want to sit on a fully loaded 737 listening to a bunch of blow-hards talking on their cell phones for 3 hours? Its a good thing cell phones are allowed on in-flight...
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:01 am

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
which contain a built-in crime prevention function that automatically restarts the phone if it is switched off.

Just confiscate that d$%? battery and you can be assured it won't start again.  tapedshut  There is always hope that airplanes can stay one of the very few cellphone-free public spaces. (note : yes, I own a cellphone)
When I doubt... go running!
 
PiedmontINT
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:12 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:38 am

I know that on our B1900's it is very obvious that there is a cell phone(s) on during flight. One of our pilots told me that when a cell phone is on during flight there is a very annoying hissing and/or humming sound they can hear on their headphones, upon which time they will ask everyone to check their electronic devices.
 
LHRGregSE4
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:55 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:46 am

Can anyone point to a study that acutaly verifies the claim that cell phones interefere with today's navigation devices. I think it's just scare mongering. Are there any incidents that were caused by apperant electronic use during takeoff or cruise?
 
Jerald01
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:35 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:48 am

Okay, so what is the REAL beef about using cell-phones on a commercial passenger flight:

1. It's against Federal Aviation Regulations.
1a. Why did the FAA implement those regulations?

2. It interferes with the aircraft navigation / communication system(s).
2a. Has this been proven? Are there any a-netter pilots out there who can definitively say they have experienced such interference on planes they were flying?

3. It overloads the cell-phone system by elevating individual cell phones to an altitude where more cell towers than the system was designed for are receiving signals from any one of the individual elevevated cell phones, thus causing the entire cell-phone system to deteriorate.
3a. Is there real proof that this happens?

4. Does anyone REALLY want to hear 100+ passengers yakking on their cell-phones within the confines of an aircraft cabin during a flight?
4a. Why did I ask that last question? D-U-M-B !!!

Well, maybe not so dumb... maybe that is the REAL reason the FAA enacted such a rule, and they did it so that the individual airlines wouldn't get hammered by the passengers for insisting the cell phones be turned off. The airlines don't have to take the heat from passengers for making that rule, because the FAA made it for them (at their insistence).

Think about it...
"There may be old pilots, and there may be bold pilots, but there are darn few green cows"
 
LHRGregSE4
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:55 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Jerald01 (Reply 21):
Does anyone REALLY want to hear 100+ passengers yakking on their cell-phones within the confines of an aircraft cabin during a flight?

Maybe then they could make quiet zones on planes. Plus not everyone would get reception that high up which might make the situation worse because they'd be yelling into their phones.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting PiedmontINT (Reply 19):
I know that on our B1900's it is very obvious that there is a cell phone(s) on during flight. One of our pilots told me that when a cell phone is on during flight there is a very annoying hissing and/or humming sound they can hear on their headphones, upon which time they will ask everyone to check their electronic devices.

When I have my cellphone near my laptop, and then someone else around me uses their cellphone, I get a variation in brightness of the LCD backlight, sort of a flicker that doesn't go completely black.

But this doesn't happen when JUST my phone is in use. Thus there is likely a compounding effect of frequencies creating peaks and voids.

One can expect such a problem on a plane as well. Maybe one phone can't do much. But without the proper shielding, can 20 phones, all in various stages of sweeping the frequency and power spectrums for signal, creating a grid of peaks and voids in frequencies at various power levels, will that cause interference?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:40 am

Another reactionary and dinosauric industry reaction. Despite multiple attempts, there has NEVER EVER been ANY scientifically documented instance of ANY portable electronic device interfering with any critical airplane function. NONE. if you take away the annecdotal pilots compplaint of buzz in their intercom, there is NOTHING.

On any given flight at least a handfull of electronic devices with wireless radios are left on and transmitting thorughout the flight and NOTHING EVER happens. Most laptops when turned on now have their WIFI connection search for pase stations and link to other computers. Nintendo DS and DSlite have WIFI and console to console wireless links. Cell phones are frequently left on in bags and carry-on luggage and are often turned on on people's pockets.

This ban on wireless devices in unecessary and ridiculous. The idustry should just get off this note. The ban on cell phones was exclusively designed to allow the airline air phones to charge you $8/min to make an in-flight call.

Thank god that has been killed, when the airlines realized that people are not stupid and they were simply carrying around extra weight.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
typhaerion
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:27 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:45 am

Let me see if I can take a crack at answering these.

Quoting Jerald01 (Reply 21):
1. It's against Federal Aviation Regulations.
1a. Why did the FAA implement those regulations?

2. It interferes with the aircraft navigation / communication system(s).
2a. Has this been proven? Are there any a-netter pilots out there who can definitively say they have experienced such interference on planes they were flying?

3. It overloads the cell-phone system by elevating individual cell phones to an altitude where more cell towers than the system was designed for are receiving signals from any one of the individual elevevated cell phones, thus causing the entire cell-phone system to deteriorate.
3a. Is there real proof that this happens?

For 1a see the answer to 2a.

For 2a, if you do a little research in the discussion forums on this issue, there have been several pilots who have come out and mentioned problems when cell phones were in use. They list symptoms from a buzzing in the com equipment to the tripping of the autopilot on some aircraft. I remember a good story that a European pilot told with regard to the latter incident, though I am unable to locate that at this time. Anyway, I think all the proof you want is in previous threads ( and there have been quite a few) on this issue.

For 3a, although I have never seen proof of this, the mechanics of keeping the call connected throughout so many towers as you pass overhead is probably where it comes from. It would take an awful lot of bandwidth to keep the call intact when passing through that many cells and that probably reduces the available bandwidth for others a lot more than normal, prompting the warning.


I hope this helps out a little.
For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
 
aeroman444
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:27 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:46 am

It's been tested. As long as the phone is not within a few inches of the electronics it won't interfere with the aircraft systems. Think about it. Pretty much every airport as literally thousands of cell phone signals at any one time in the near vicinity. Aircraft fly though thousands of them during takeoff and landing every time.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17058
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:54 am

If it was really important, the operators would simply install cell phone and wifi detectors on the aircraft. But this is one of those "not worth the money" things. If there is ever a crash, expect the barn door to close very quickly as the horse gallops towards the horizon.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 24):
Another reactionary and dinosauric industry reaction. Despite multiple attempts, there has NEVER EVER been ANY scientifically documented instance of ANY portable electronic device interfering with any critical airplane function. NONE. if you take away the annecdotal pilots compplaint of buzz in their intercom, there is NOTHING.

Really? http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...ne/aero_10/interfere_textonly.html

Some highlights of the article:
A passenger laptop computer was reported to cause autopilot disconnects during cruise.

A passenger’s palmtop computer was reported to cause the airplane to initiate a shallow bank turn. One minute after turning the PED off, the airplane returned to "on course."
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:18 am

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 25):
there have been several pilots who have come out and mentioned problems when cell phones were in use. They list symptoms from a buzzing in the com equipment to the tripping of the autopilot on some aircraft.

And the pilots know that the problem was caused by 0.6W cell phone tranmiters HOW???!!!!???? Did they eliminate the 2000W weather radar in a plane in front of them being turned on? Did they eliminate the 20W comm radios on the plane next to them transmitting? Did they eliminate the cell phone towers located IN the airport? Did they eliminate the 200W DME, ILS, VOR transmitters on the field? Did they eliminate the 5W airport police radios coming on? Did they eliminate grounding faults on their 30-year old DC9s? Did they aliminate someone using their 40W airphones?

Come one man. Listen to yourself. If a pilot says it was a cell phone, it does not make it so.

I repeat. Despite all the tries, NEVER EVER has there been a scientifically verified instance of normal cell phone use (particularly the digital types that transmit at much lower power levels) interfering with any critical aircraft systems.

It is an urban (err ailine) myth.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
ual777
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting PiedmontINT (Reply 19):


I know that on our B1900's it is very obvious that there is a cell phone(s) on during flight. One of our pilots told me that when a cell phone is on during flight there is a very annoying hissing and/or humming sound they can hear on their headphones, upon which time they will ask everyone to check their electronic devices.

That is true. When I fly, I sometimes forget to turn off my cellphone and if someone calls me it causes a NASTY interference with the radios. There is nothing more annoying than trying to do a VOR hold and the radios start making wierd noises.

I have had it happen as high as 6,000 feet AGL.

Now I realize that I fly C-172s, but on an airliner, phones going off while in the critical phases of flight could cause a missed radio call which in crowded airspace could be very dangerous.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17058
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 28):
I repeat. Despite all the tries, NEVER EVER has there been a scientifically verified instance of normal cell phone use (particularly the digital types that transmit at much lower power levels) interfering with any critical aircraft systems.

I refer you to the link I posted in reply 27.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
jamesjimlb
Posts: 940
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:48 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:45 am

i've actually sent a message on my phone while we were decending and nothing happened.
The sky is no longer the limit, but the mere minimum
 
typhaerion
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:27 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 28):
Come one man. Listen to yourself. If a pilot says it was a cell phone, it does not make it so.

Easy Chief. I am not trying to start a war here. But I do hope that you realize that it has nothing to do with the relative power and everything to do with the frequency. When the frequency overlap happens, there is interference, no matter what the power setting is. The lack of power only explains why the avionics do not collapse completely rather than experience some interference as they do now.

I know that a cell phone will never cause a plane to drop out of the sky. But the fact of the matter is that airplanes were not designed to deal with interference from the frequencies that wireless devices and cell phones produce, so there are some side effects. They are, however, designed to handle the frequencies that the WX radar and the HF and VHF coms produce.

And there are too many pilots saying it for me to discount them all, Mythbusters episodes to the contrary notwithstanding. I have to agree with experience, and it says that these devices do have effects that are not positive to aircraft operation. I support the ban until someone can prove to me without a doubt that these devices are totally safe. You may be right that they don't do anything, but with the current law in place, it is your burden of proof to bear with regards to proving that they have no effect. I think, with a little research, that you will find that there is no solid "scientific evidence" either way.

Just some more food for thought.
For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting Jerald01 (Reply 21):
2a. Has this been proven? Are there any a-netter pilots out there who can definitively say they have experienced such interference on planes they were flying?

I haven't personally experienced anything too drastic, yet, aside from the some chirping on my headphones that I also hear on my computer speakers at times with my cell nearby.

My flight instructor has had some interesting ocurrences a couple of times. He said some GPS units will go wild if he receives a call on his phone. VOR indications will sometimes fluctuate too. Not something you'd want to get while flying in the soup.

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 32):
that you will find that there is no solid "scientific evidence" either way.

True, but there's lots of documented reports of interference ocurring. IIRC, fellow a.nutter 2H4 had a pretty long list of actual reports in a thread with the same topic a while back.
 
dl757md
Posts: 1482
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 27):
Really? http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...ne/aero_10/interfere_textonly.html

Some highlights of the article:
A passenger laptop computer was reported to cause autopilot disconnects during cruise.

A passenger's palmtop computer was reported to cause the airplane to initiate a shallow bank turn. One minute after turning the PED off, the airplane returned to "on course."

Also from the article if you read a little further down.

As a result of these and other investigations, Boeing has not been able to find a definite correlation between PEDs and the associated reported airplane anomalies.

The conditions you quoted were REPORTS of SUSPECTED interference. The article states that none of the conditions you quoted could be duplicated by Boeing even with the suspect PED which was purchased from the passenger when possible. Clearly the article does not support your contention that there is scientifically documented evidence of interference.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting Jerald01 (Reply 21):
1. It's against Federal Aviation Regulations.
1a. Why did the FAA implement those regulations?

To prevent air-rage by pax, of course!

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 24):
Despite multiple attempts, there has NEVER EVER been ANY scientifically documented instance of ANY portable electronic device interfering with any critical airplane function.

Just because there isn't any scientific documentation on the issue does not make it okay to use it on the aircraft.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 24):
The ban on cell phones was exclusively designed to allow the airline air phones to charge you $8/min to make an in-flight call

Not exactly...not how I see it. It is to discourage cell phone use inflight and also air-rage.

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 25):
For 2a, if you do a little research in the discussion forums on this issue, there have been several pilots who have come out and mentioned problems when cell phones were in use. They list symptoms from a buzzing in the com equipment to the tripping of the autopilot on some aircraft.

 checkmark  I may be deaf, but I believe that.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 28):
It is an urban (err airline) myth.

If that were true, it may be because of liability/neliegent issues should it ever bring down an aircraft. You can be sued for almost any THING in this country!

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 32):
Mythbusters episodes to the contrary notwithstanding.

ROFL! When it comes to aviation stuff on that gawd awful inaccurate show, I never believe their results.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
justloveplanes
Posts: 864
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:38 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:14 am

The answer to me is just shielding of electronics to EMI or use of other frequencies that don't collide with the airplane electronics. I would think the 787 had this solved completely as it was going to all wireless IFE. Maybe older avionics were vulnerable, but new build avionics should definitely account for this.
 
User avatar
Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2288
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 5:33 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting Jerald01 (Reply 21):
Are there any a-netter pilots out there who can definitively say they have experienced such interference on planes they were flying?

This one immediately came to mind: For God's Sake, Switch Off Your Damn Cell Phones.. (by Pilotaydin Jan 11 2007 in Civil Aviation)

And also Effects Of Cellular Phones To Flight Safety (by Wing Mar 10 2006 in Tech Ops)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/750893.stm
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
Tod
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:51 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting Analog (Reply 8):
By the article posted by the OP, it seems that ANA and JAL know that cellphones are operated on their aircraft. Of course on domestic flights no FARs are violated, right.

The JCAB is interested in the subject.

http://www.icao.int/anb/panels/acp/WG/F/WGF7/wgf7_wp27.doc

Tod
 
flybeq400
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:46 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:44 am

The average 747 flight has 6 mobile phones left on whilst on-board. The one thing you will notice if you left your phone on would be the very low battery levels, since it would constantly be acquiring, dropping, and re-acquiring different cell towers. The main reason for not being allowed cell phones in flight is that it would confuse the GSM network on the ground.
 
cjh2007
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:06 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:51 am

who gives actually gives a crap. there is no real proven data that cell phones have actually interfered with any airplanes navigation or control systems. I allways keep mine on... still alive. Oh, and when i fly with friends, i use the wifi on my psp to play multiplayer... i dont suppose that makes me a criminal...

Cjh
Is it the kerosene, or is it just me...
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:55 am

Quoting N710PS (Reply 11):
I routinely leave my cells on in flight but not normally on purpose. I usually turn my cell off by the time we are number two to go or if we are expecting to roll from brakes release all the way I turn it off as soon as we have the salute from the ramp.

What's the advantage of keeping a cell phone (that you're not allowed to talk on anyway) for an extra five minutes? Why not just turn it off when they ask you to?

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 28):

I repeat. Despite all the tries, NEVER EVER has there been a scientifically verified instance of normal cell phone use (particularly the digital types that transmit at much lower power levels) interfering with any critical aircraft systems.

I don't want to be on the flight that proves scientifically proves they're unsafe to use.

Besides, I don't think anyone wants to sit next to someone whose SexyBack ringer goes off every twenty minutes.
 
avallillo
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 10:31 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:07 am

It sounds like most of these memos are being written by non-pilots! As a pilot for over 30 years for a major airline in the USA, I have had several confirmed instances of interference with VOR navigation systems caused by passengers using electronic devices in the cabin in cruise.

The problem manifested itself in each instance by a wavering of the VOR needle on the instrument panel, which, in that particular airplane, was the primary navigation aid. It makes little difference that more modern aircraft use navigation computers -- these computers still get important nav information from VOR and ILS (same frequency band, VHF) inputs, as well as satellite signals which may also be vulnerable to interference.

In each case, I had the F/A's make a PA to have all of the electronic devices turned off, and within one minute the VOR needle was rock steady! In those days, the culprit was usually a Walkman type tape player that had a built in FM radio receiver. Ironically, FM receivers also emit some sort of signal that interferes with the very similar VOR frequency band.

So there is a lot more to it than a "buzz in the intercom", as one of our compatriots alleges! Since the Instrument Landing System, which is used for blind automatic landings, uses the same freq band, interference at the wrong moment, say right in the flare, could be a BIG problem!

By the way - the main regs on cell phone use inflight are promulgated by the FCC, due to cell overload from phones at altitudes high enough to flood many sites at once.
 
lvhgel
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:30 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:14 am

Quoting N776AU (Reply 1):
Then it hit me, "I'll take the battery out".

In a Kids Cell Phone, a battery is fixed and cant be removed from the device, unless the device is destroyed.

Regarding all the "yes you can" "no you can't" discussion, I will add my professional opinion.

I am a Systems Analyst by profession, I design IT Networks for a living, and been working with radio networks, even before the WIFI specs were published. Wireless or radio communications, will produce and receive interference, (any electronic device for that matter) some of it is harmless, other render the connection useless or interfere with neighbouring systems in undesirable ways (I tested and retested installations in hospitals, and my recommendation is DO NOT use your cell phone in an ICU or any place where vital signs monitors are being used, I've seen really weird readings coming out, mostly when a call or a network check is being received by the phone)

What I want to say is that, the "relation" between electronic systems, when this "relation" is not taken into consideration in the design, can produce "interesting" phenomena.

A post before this said that there is no scientific proof that there is harmful interference (NOTE: There is always some kind of interference), but also there is no proof that the interference isn't harmful. And quoting ADent

Quoting ADent (Reply 13):
99.9999% of devices won't cause any damage on 99.9999% of flights - but on some day a broken plane (say with frayed antenna shielding) with a high power cell (They go into higher power mode when they can't get a signal) or a broken RC toy or broken $5 FM radio could cause interference with voice, navigation, etc. That interference could make a bad situation worse. Then blammo a crash caused by a cell phone

The probability is there, moreover when radio is involved, as I say to my customers, you can predict how a wired network system will work. You can predict a bit less how a radio (wireless) network system will work, unless you install it and see if some adjustments are needed because of: environmental, system "relation", or non evident situations that not even the best site survey can discover.

A Kids Cell phone is an emergency device, programed to call a few numbers, and have certain "fail safe" procedures so to guarantee its usefulness (unless you are like my nephew that will destroy his phone by letting it fall in a swimming pool). One device may not create harmful interference, but, what about 5 or 20 of those devices active at a certain moment of time in the confines of an airplane? How do these devices will interfere with the NAV or other critical systems in the plane?

I think the FCC and the FAA should jointly create a certification that will test this devices (All electronic devices bound to fly in a passenger possesion) in such a way as to minimize or better eliminate any harmful interference with the airplane systems, and yes, this will add to the cost of the devices but I think it must be done to let this kind of discussion to rest once a for all.

Just my 18 cents, cheers...
 
Ward86IND
Posts: 226
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:13 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 24):

"Boeing conducted a laboratory and airplane test with 16 cell phones typical of those carried by passengers, to determine the emission characteristics of these intentionally transmitting PEDs. The laboratory results indicated that the phones not only produce emissions at the operating frequency, but also produce other emissions that fall within airplane communication/navigation frequency bands (automatic direction finder, high frequency, very high frequency [VHF] omni range/locator, and VHF communications and instrument landing system [ILS]). Emissions at the operating frequency were as high as 60 dB over the airplane equipment emission limits, but the other emissions were generally within airplane equipment emission limits. One concern about these other emissions from cell phones is that they may interfere with the operation of an airplane communication or navigation system if the levels are high enough."

From the above-mentioned article. The only reason there is no "proof" is that the situations in which interference occured are nearly impossible to duplicate on the ground or during a flight test. However, in that same article it states in a few instances in which the culprit of the interference was brought to the flight deck, the effects it caused could be stopped and started by switching on and off the device. Cell phones and other devices CAN interfere with the aircraft's systems. To say they cannot or to dismiss the idea by saying there is no proof is moronic.
Live your dream.
 
pizzaandplanes
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 10:17 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:02 am

They're just the next generation a.netters on their phones in the sky reading the forums.  Wink
A real man lands where he wants to
 
ual777
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 28):

And the pilots know that the problem was caused by 0.6W cell phone tranmiters HOW???!!!!???? Did they eliminate the 2000W weather radar in a plane in front of them being turned on? Did they eliminate the 20W comm radios on the plane next to them transmitting? Did they eliminate the cell phone towers located IN the airport? Did they eliminate the 200W DME, ILS, VOR transmitters on the field? Did they eliminate the 5W airport police radios coming on? Did they eliminate grounding faults on their 30-year old DC9s? Did they aliminate someone using their 40W airphones?

Come one man. Listen to yourself. If a pilot says it was a cell phone, it does not make it so.

I repeat. Despite all the tries, NEVER EVER has there been a scientifically verified instance of normal cell phone use (particularly the digital types that transmit at much lower power levels) interfering with any critical aircraft systems.

It is an urban (err ailine) myth.

The airplane I fly was made in 2006.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting Cjh2007 (Reply 40):
i dont suppose that makes me a criminal...

it actually does in the uSA. not complying with crewmember instructions is a crime.

but beyond that, it makes you the typical 16-20 year old, who thinks he knows better than those silly adults, especially when it comes to things that might dare inconvenience you or get in the way of what you want to do.

I and my friends were like you to some degree at that age. Funny how only 16-20 more years can teach you a lot about the world...  Wink

My suggestion is to turn the wireless shit off and stop being so selfish. Because if EVERYONE did as you did, then you would have 300+ transmitters compiling on one flight, and a harmless whatever can actually turn into a bad situation.

Most laws are in existence not because any one person breaking them will destroy mankind, but because if EVERYONE did it, it would bring down society and send everyone's life into crap. Don't believe me, just leave the civilized west and visit a war torn nation where the rule of law has broken down. It's not pretty.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 47):
it actually does in the USA. not complying with crewmember instructions is a crime.

 checkmark  I think that hits it on the nail completely. Game, set and match!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
lincoln
Posts: 3133
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:22 pm

RE: Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:47 am

I'll take this moment to remind everyone that the primary reason for banning cell phones inflight (in the US at least) was originally pushed by the FCC (Not the FAA or the FBB) because of the impact of cell phones on the ground cellular network and not the aircraft's navigation systems.

Certain assumptions were made when desiging the cellular network -- that a phone will not be able to see more than X towers at any given time and that a phone will not switch towers / cellular channels more than Y times in Z period of time. When you elevate phone to several thousand feet above the ground, all of a sudden a lot of these assumptions go out the window and the impact on the cellular network of a large number of phones doing this is not insignificant -- or at least that's the way it was explained to me a few years back.


FCC Rule 22.925 (47 CFR 22.925): "Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are airborne (not touching the ground). When any aircraft leaves the ground, all cellular telephones on board that aircraft must be turned off. The following notice must be posted on or near each
cellular telephone installed in any aircraft:
''The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is airborne is prohibited by FCC rules, and the violation of this rule could result in suspension of service and/or a fine. The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is on the ground is subject to FAA regulations.''



Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: airzim, alski, BC77008, Bing [Bot], crazytoaster, czpdx, EddieDude, eidvm, Google [Bot], guyanam, KLDC10, Miami, Mikey711MN, msycajun, piedmontf284000, wolbo and 247 guests