keesje
Posts: 8757
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:07 pm

As discussed last week GE & the A350XWB(-1000) don't get along real good http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/3434937/ and as expected (hoped) PW might be making some phone calls to both GE & Airbus.


Prospects may be increasing for a potential Engine Alliance bid to power the Airbus A350XWB, as talks have stalled between the aircraft maker and General Electric over a powerplant offering.

The move comes while Airbus is revealing other A350 details, including a highly aggressive production plan, which signals that it is banking on an order rate not unlike the strong uptake Boeing has seen with the rival 787.

Rolls-Royce is the only committed engine maker, with the TrentXWB, offering a thrust range up to 90,000-95,000-lb. to power the planned A350-1000 version.



GE concedes negotiations with Airbus have reached "a stalemate," but adds the offer is "still not dead" for 75,000-lb.- and 80,000-lb.-thrust-class GEnx variants for the A350-800 and -900, respectively. GE has consistently declined to offer an engine for the -1000 because it competes directly with Boeing's longer-range 777-200LR/300ER variants, which it powers exclusively with the GE90-110/115B.

The Alliance has also expressed interest in powering twins. A new-generation, 90,000-lb.-thrust engine for the A350-1000 would provide Airbus with a suitable power source for the proposed A380-900 stretch, as well.

Although the Engine Alliance applied for, and was granted, European Union antitrust permission to offer the "GP" engine for a proposed long-range derivative of the 767-400ER in the late 1990s, this development never took place. Any new approach to Airbus, says GE, can only occur "if GE is done, and we and Airbus part ways." It would also require a change of the joint venture's charter.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...20A350%20Order%20Book&channel=comm


GP7200

[Edited 2007-06-11 10:08:26]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:29 pm

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
but adds the offer is "still not dead" for 75,000-lb.- and 80,000-lb.-thrust-class GEnx variants for the A350-800 and -900, respectively



Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
A new-generation, 90,000-lb.-thrust engine for the A350-1000 would provide Airbus with a suitable power source for the proposed A380-900 stretch, as well.

This would be a great solution IMHO. GE powers the -800 and -900, and GP the -1000. It gives EA enough time to develop the new generation GP engine, and it allows GE to share the development costs, as well as offer PW a new entry in the widebody market.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
A new-generation, 90,000-lb.-thrust engine for the A350-1000 would provide Airbus with a suitable power source for the proposed A380-900 stretch, as well.

I assumes they mean the a350-900R? Looking at the graph, that falls in the same thrust category as the -1000.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
keesje
Posts: 8757
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:11 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 1):
This would be a great solution IMHO. GE powers the -800 and -900, and GP the -1000

I think from a airline perspective a sole engine family for all types would be preffered. So a GP7000 for -800, -900, 1000, -900R, -900F and whatever they come up with..

I think the Gp7000 is a good engine, efficient, silent ect. but I guess some new technology should be included to optimize it for introduction from 2013.

From it's inception to IES would be ~13 yrs. It;'s basicly a GE90 core evolution with a PW4000 cold engine and new fan. GE is very much in the GP7000 as is the GE90 / link to the Boeings 777..

New materials, combuster technology etc. have moved on.

I wonder how P&W feels now on its GP alliance with GE.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:35 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
From it's inception to IES would be ~13 yrs. It;'s basicly a GE90 core evolution with a PW4000 cold engine and new fan. GE is very much in the GP7000 as is the GE90 / link to the Boeings 777..

It could still work well, both the GEnx and Trent 1000 are derived from existing engines also. As long as a new derivative of the GP could compete with the Trent XWBs SFC than I cant see why it should not happen.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:21 pm

EA having an engine for the 350-1000 is fascinating and welcome, but how is GE 50% competing with itself any more acceptable than just competing 100% with itself?

It may well all come to pass, but if the GP engines do power that version, it rather suggests that some of the original reasons for not having a 95ish k version of the GEnx might not have been correct???
 
trex8
Posts: 4606
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:39 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 4):
but how is GE 50% competing with itself any more acceptable than just competing 100% with itself?

the reality is there will be a A350-1000, and if GE aren't on board they will all be RR powered and their absence on the -1000 may send more customers to RR for the -800. -900, so GE can still have some o fthe market without totally abndoning its 777/GE90 commitment or taking as much risk on the A350 project.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8577
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:22 pm

So I guess this means that the EU will waive their demand that the GP7000 is to be restricted to quadjets now that Airbus needs it for their latest twin....
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350X

Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 5):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 4):
but how is GE 50% competing with itself any more acceptable than just competing 100% with itself?

the reality is there will be a A350-1000, and if GE aren't on board they will all be RR powered and their absence on the -1000 may send more customers to RR for the -800. -900, so GE can still have some of the market without totally abandoning its 777/GE90 commitment or taking as much risk on the A350 project.

True indeed. But if I was GE, I would do that by putting a GEnx derivative on and having 100% of that share, rather than 50%. And the other problem is that if there is a problem with the agreement with Boeing associated offering the GEnx for a T7 competitor, then the EA option might not solve the problem.

Or putting it round the other way, if it does solve the problem it is a much different one from that which has been set out in other threads in a.net.

None of which is to say you might not be correct Trex8.

[Edited 2007-06-11 16:45:59]
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:43 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
So I guess this means that the EU will waive their demand that the GP7000 is to be restricted to quadjets now that Airbus needs it for their latest twin....

Well for a start it will need to be improved, so it might not even be called the GP7000. Whether or not that would affect the quad rule I dont know.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23100
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Any new approach to Airbus, says GE, can only occur "if GE is done, and we and Airbus part ways." It would also require a change of the joint venture's charter.

I'm confused by this statement. Is GE saying they will only support an EA powerplant for the A350 if they decide not to produce a GEnx model or are they saying they will leave the EA and then P&W by itself can proceed?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
So I guess this means that the EU will waive their demand that the GP7000 is to be restricted to quadjets now that Airbus needs it for their latest twin....

Since the article states the EA was given permission to power the 767-400ER, I can only imagine it would be assured that they would be given permission to power the A350.
 
keesje
Posts: 8757
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:39 am

Emirates is "threatening" to order 100 A350. They indicated they are mainly interested in bigger aircraft (e.g. 787-10, A350-1000) http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/3452047/

Now if I'm not wrong these folks already ordered 170 GP7200 engines, are building a testcel with GE etc..

Maybe Tim Clark did call GE to ask if they could do the GP7000 also on their A350s. Commonality, in-house capabilities..

If they say no, that's 200 engines to RR, after last weeks Qatar's 160.

How hot is the 777? Time to get creative..

http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/gp7000/index.html
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8005
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:43 am

I wouldn't be surprised that the Engine Alliance GP7000 series engine is offered on the A350XWB, especially when EK could buy 100+ planes and that could mean as many as 240+ engines sold to EK.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23100
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:43 am

How high can the GP7000 scale? The top-end model can only power the A350-800 so they'd need to get at least another 4,000lbs for the A350-900 and some 14,000lbs for the A350-1000 and other HGW variants.
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:49 am

Perhaps GE is using these negotiations to open the door to a joint venture for future projects, without any restriction, with Pratt & Whitney? And yes, I believe the business case for the A350-1000XWB is certainly there. I just can't understand GE's tactics here. I used to think that they wanted to stick Airbus with the development costs, but maybe there is another (ulterior) motive?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23100
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 13):
Perhaps GE is using these negotiations to open the door to a joint venture for future projects, without any restriction, with Pratt & Whitney?

Anybody know what, exactly, Pratt was offering on their 787 engine? Was it going to use a GTF, as well?

If so, then perhaps indeed GE and PW seek to build a GTF-based engine family that can support both the 737RS and A320RS as well as the 787, A350 and Y3?
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:09 am

"f so, then perhaps indeed GE and PW seek to build a GTF-based engine family that can support both the 737RS and A320RS as well as the 787, A350 and Y3?"

Excellent point Stitch. That would be a cool joint venture. It would poor some life back into PW's commercial business as well as keep GE's sales way up.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13386
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:11 am

I'm actually struggling to see how this could pan out.

GE currently won't offer an engine for the A350-1000 because that plane will compete with the 777-300ER. If that's the only basis for their decision, I don't see why they would give the go-ahead for EA to offer a version of the GP7000 for the same plane. I assume, given the nature of EA, that either partner can veto any developments of the engine it doesn't like.

Re the EU rules requiring GP7000s in "sets of four", I have a high level of confidence that if Airbus really wanted it for the A350, that the rule would be revoked.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:50 am

P&W is done long term from big engines. GE is holding out for 3 reasons. 1 - Give the 77W/77L/77F more time to caputure big orders. 2 - Waiting for Boeing definition on the 787-10/10ER to see what thrust level they need to scale to on the GEnx. 3 - Wanting airbus to face enough customer presure that they will FUND part of GE's development effort.

In the end most A350 orders will be RR; Most 787 orders will be GE; but there will be a choice.

Airbus, on the other hand, seeing that lack of engine choice did not hurt the 77W/77L, is holding out.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
keesje
Posts: 8757
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
Since the article states the EA was given permission to power the 767-400ER, I can only imagine it would be assured that they would be given permission to power the A350.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 16):
Re the EU rules requiring GP7000s in "sets of four", I have a high level of confidence that if Airbus really wanted it for the A350, that the rule would be revoked.

Like Stitch quoted the ruling isn´t as hard as many have assumed here for yrs, 764ER was already yrs ago. About capasity the core of the GP7200 is the GE90 core so should be able to handle 90.000lb, the cold section is PW that also powers 777´s and a new fan. I think 90.000lb is doable without to drastic redesign.



Quoting Baron95 (Reply 17):
In the end most A350 orders will be RR; Most 787 orders will be GE; but there will be a choice.

Airbus, on the other hand, seeing that lack of engine choice did not hurt the 77W/77L, is holding out.

I think RR is doing ok on the 787. They have sold to major customers (ANA, NWA) and other RR customers still have to decide (SQ, VS).

I don´t think GE is aiming at sharing the 787 market with RR & leave the XWB to RR. That seems a price to high to pay for the Boeing 777 market position.

RR might be sweetening up its offerings & ramping up production to take advantage right now. GE is simply in no position to lean back.


Trent1000

I expect action from GE pretty soon.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
astuteman
Posts: 6341
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:19 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
How high can the GP7000 scale?

I think it would be difficult for the GP7000 to exceed 80 000lb by much efficiently.
(Maybe enough for the A350XWB-900 without too many probs)
It's smaller than the Trent XWB, (which RR themselves are having to do clever things to to get 95 000lb) and slightly older tech.
Surely an A350XWB-1000 engine would have to be a derivative of sorts......

Quoting Keesje (Reply 18):

You put some fabulous photos on this site, Keesje, and the engine shots are no exception.  thumbsup 

Regards
 
User avatar
glideslope
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
If so, then perhaps indeed GE and PW seek to build a GTF-based engine family that can support both the 737RS and A320RS as well as the 787, A350 and Y3?

A wise person this one is.  checkmark 
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23100
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 19):
I think it would be difficult for the GP7000 to exceed 80 000lb by much efficiently.

So that puts it in the same hole the GEnx is in - it can power the A350-800, but that is it.

So it looks like GE is going to have to go back and improve the GE90 with GEnx technology to get the desired thrust levels. On the plus side, this would make the 777 better, but a 123" fan is going to probably be too big for any 787 model since it is a full foot wider then the GEnx and Trent 1000.

So GE is probably in the same boat as RR was - having to come out with an A350-specific fan size around 116-118". And that fan size might not be large enough to power Y3. Now, if GE can get to ~85,000lbs with the current GEnx, that should cover the HGW 787s to ~600,000lbs which should be enough even for the 787-11ER.

I would not be surprised if GE isn't currently hamstrung by what direction Boeing intends to go with. If Boeing goes for Y3, then GE can build the GEnxXWF (Xtra-Wide Fan) and use a smaller fan diameter for the A350 (ala the GEnx on the 747-8I) and a wider fan on the 777 and Y3. If Boeing decides to go with the HGW 787s and GE can get the GEnx to power them, then GE may very well decide it's not worth the investment to build an A350 engine without direct Airbus support, as has been suggested by a number of members.
 
sv11
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 1999 6:26 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:33 am

I think PW should seize the moment and offer a 75-95K engine for the A350. I think they have a good engine on the A330 and this would be a good moment for them to get back into the widebody game.

sv11
 
keesje
Posts: 8757
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:11 am

I think it is clear RR is building on the -900 and 1000 engines and various research program to build the Trent XWB. Preliminairy desuign phase should be completed next years together with the A350XWB.

I can imagine the people engaged in the development of the new variant are all up to speed and eager to implement lessons learned from the previous projects.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
So that puts it in the same hole the GEnx is in - it can power the A350-800, but that is it.


Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 19):
I think it would be difficult for the GP7000 to exceed 80 000lb by much efficiently.

So that puts it in the same hole the GEnx is in - it can power the A350-800, but that is it.

The GP7000 is build on 409kN (92,000lb) General Electric GE90-92Bs and or 436kN (98,000lb) PW-4098s technology.

Therefor a GP7000 at 90.000lb doesn´t seem impossible to me.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
I would not be surprised if GE isn't currently hamstrung by what direction Boeing intends to go with. If Boeing goes for Y3, then GE can build the GEnxXWF (Xtra-Wide Fan) and use a smaller fan diameter for the A350 (ala the GEnx on the 747-8I) and a wider fan on the 777 and Y3

I think GE banking on the B777 and Y3 solely might put their >80.000lb business at unacceptable risk for the next 5 yrs..

Not everybody might be sure the GE90 is good enough for that period.


[Edited 2007-06-12 01:18:55]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13764
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:01 am

I still don't buy that airbus will be able to get more range, more efficiency, same cruise speed and nearly the same capacity (pax/cargo) in the A350-1000 with 90k engines while the 77W requires 115k engines. 100k engines, maybe, but the A350-1000, the more I see it thrown around, seems to be a plane that Airbus will fall short on in a few areas. Either the range will decrease, or the efficiency will decrease, or it will be slower and have less payload than currently offered.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8577
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350X

Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 24):
Either the range will decrease, or the efficiency will decrease, or it will be slower and have less payload than currently offered.

Airbus has already (quietly) revised the A350 range targets downward from when the "XWB" was announced at Farnborough 2006. At the time, the A350-800/900 targeted a still air range of 8,500 nm. The -1000 targeted 8,300 nm, likely due to a slight range for payload swap. Now we see:

-1000: 8000nm, reduction of 300 nm
-900: 8100nm, reduction of 300 nm
-800: 8300nm, reduction of 200 nm

If I may speculate, the specifications provided at Farnborough 2006 when "XWB" was unvieled were simply nice, clean, round numbers picked out of the air by the marketing squad. Now 12 months down the road, range specs are revised downard. Call me cynical, but I seriously doubt that Airbus updated their market data and found airlines want a product with less range and payload. I think it's much more likely that the engineers have had their say, and the less ambitious specifications are the best they can be garaunteed to meet.

I'm not faulting the fact that the specifications have become more realistic as XWB the becomes more clearly defined. I fault the marketing/sales folks who irresponsibly picked arbitraty specifications out of their rear ends. It reinforces my opinion that the A350 team are still flying by the seat of their pants, and always have been. Compare this to the 787 that Boeing has uber-optimized thanks to market analysis that likely dwarfes anything that Airbus has conducted for the A350.

My prediction since the A350 mk.1 was announced was that Boeing and Airbus will split the mid-sized market 67/33 in a simmilar manner as the 777/A340, i.e. the 787 will outsell the A350 2:1. I don't see any reason to change my prediciton yet...
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 4834
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 17):
Most 787 orders will be GE

I think it's still a bit early to make that prediction. There's a long way still to go.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 18):
other RR customers still have to decide (SQ, VS).

VS have ordered RR on their A380s but it's streching a point to imply that they are loyal to RR. There was no choice on their A346s and they chose GE for their 744s. Their 787 order could easily go either way.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23100
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 23):
I think GE banking on the B777 and Y3 solely might put their >80.000lb business at unacceptable risk for the next 5 yrs..

I disagree. Over the next five years the 77F, 77L and 77W should all continue to see strong demand (especially the 77W), unless the A350 sells poorly during that time, which would open near-term slots for it that would normally go to the 777 due to availability.

And if the A350 does sell poorly the next five years, well that would validate in part GE's decision to not actively pursue that family.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13764
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:44 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 23):

That chart about range and efficiency against the 77W seems to be old.

For one thing, the 77W has a current new build range of:
7,930 nautical miles

Directly from the Boeing Website. That's over 100nm more than Airbus claims.

Then, if DfwR is correct...

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 25):
-1000: 8000nm, reduction of 300 nm

That makes the two jets functionally similar in terms of range, not the 500nm advantage the table shows.

With "15" fewer pax and a lower revenue payload, the real picture becomes more clear. If they want to match the capacity and payload of the 77W while still being efficient with "next gen" engines, they need someone to build them an efficient 100k+ thrust engine.

Otherwise the A350-1000 is "limited" just as the 787-10 seems to be, not quite up to snuff as a replacement for the previous generation standard bearer even if otherwise more efficient. It might also explain why both have been discussed quite a bit but neither officially launched?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8577
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350X

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 28):
It might also explain why both have been discussed quite a bit but neither officially launched?

I'm sure there are some ardent A350 supports who would tell you that the -1000 has indeed been "launched" by QR, but with nearly a decade to EIS we should all know better. Airbus is marketing the stats of a purely paper airplane and won't begin any of the work that would constitute "launching" an airplane program for at least 5-6 years. Minimum

We should take any claims that the A350-1000 has been launched with a grain of salt. It is Airbus attempt to stall out 773ER sales by claiming: "look, we are developing something newer and better!" How ironic that those exact words were used by Airbus to criticize Boeing when they began developing the 787-8? And let's not forget that the A350-1000 will have over twice the lead time as the 787-8!  rotfl   rotfl 
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13764
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
I'm sure there are some ardent A350 supports who would tell you that the -1000 has indeed been "launched" by QR, but with nearly a decade to EIS we should all know better.

I kind of agree there. It's just too far away to consider it a real launch. It's just "planned planes in the family" at this point. Or, "offered for sale."

What's weird is Boeing is so reticent to launch the 787-10 because they don't want to commit this far out until they can be sure about what they can accomplish with it, but it would still EIS before even the A350-900!
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Shenzhen
Posts: 1664
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:11 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:10 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 23):
I think GE banking on the B777 and Y3 solely might put their >80.000lb business at unacceptable risk for the next 5 yrs..

Not everybody might be sure the GE90 is good enough for that period.

Wow, those are some pretty aggresive numbers Airbus are touting. If the A350-1 cost 25 percent less to operate then the 777-3, then it must be 40 - 50 percent cheaper then the A340-6 and 15 - 20 percent cheaper then the A380.

This doesn't look good for the A380 at all.

Cheers
 
astuteman
Posts: 6341
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:43 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 25):
-1000: 8000nm, reduction of 300 nm

Don't know where you get this from. It been reduced so quietly that even Airbus don't know.  Smile
The specified range of the A350XWB-1000 is 15 400km, or 8 325 Nm
Are you getting confused with the 787?.......

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 24):
I still don't buy that airbus will be able to get more range, more efficiency, same cruise speed and nearly the same capacity (pax/cargo) in the A350-1000 with 90k engines while the 77W requires 115k engines. 100k engines, maybe, but the A350-1000, the more I see it thrown around, seems to be a plane that Airbus will fall short on in a few areas. Either the range will decrease, or the efficiency will decrease, or it will be slower and have less payload than currently offered.

To split your difference, the specified engine thrust for the A350XWB-1000 is 95 000lb.
It will be sufficient to propel the 295t aircraft.
295t will be sufficient to deliver the specification (of 350 pax @ 8 325Nm)

The combination of much lighter structure (especially wings), much lower drag, and substantially better SFC will deliver the step change being quoted.
Remember what Boeing said about the 787 - the biggest gain came from the combination of improvements, and when you examine the data, it becomes clear that this is correct.
There is nothing you can economically do to the 777 that will close this gap. no 

Contrary to your belief, I actually think the biggest A350XWB is the MOST likely to hit its specs. It's the smallest one I struggle with.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
We should take any claims that the A350-1000 has been launched with a grain of salt

If we are to take the fact that an aircraft that has firm contracts in place for 20 units is launched, with a grain of salt, presumably this also applies to the B748i, which is in exactly the same position

Regards
 
spink
Posts: 316
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350X

Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 32):


Quoting DfwRevolution,reply=29:

We should take any claims that the A350-1000 has been launched with a grain of salt

If we are to take the fact that an aircraft that has firm contracts in place for 20 units is launched, with a grain of salt, presumably this also applies to the B748i, which is in exactly the same position

Just to remind me. How many firm orders did the 350 have?
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11833
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:24 am

The GP7000 could be easily scaled to the thrusts required. That is not an issue. Its more the Alliance structure and...

Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
I think the Gp7000 is a good engine, efficient, silent ect. but I guess some new technology should be included to optimize it for introduction from 2013.

The issue with the GP7000 is it is far too conservative for EIS in 2013. It wouldn't be competitive with a Trent 1000, much less what RR will engineer by then.

Could the alliance produce a great engine by then? Yes, but do to the number of changes that would need to be implemented (bearings, fan style, advancing the turbine, IBR compressors, etc.), it would be a different engine from the current GP7000.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 24):
I still don't buy that airbus will be able to get more range, more efficiency, same cruise speed and nearly the same capacity (pax/cargo) in the A350-1000 with 90k engines while the 77W requires 115k engines.

I see no reason why it couldn't be done.

From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_777

Quote:
The -300ER is slightly less fuel efficient than the regular -300 because it weighs slightly more and has engines that produce more thrust. Both the -300 and -300ER weigh approximately 360,000 lb empty, have the same passenger and payload capacity, but the ER has a higher MTOW. The increased MTOW means that a -300ER with the same payload can carry about 110,000 lb more fuel than the -300. This enables the ER to fly roughly 34% farther with the same passengers and cargo. Without the increase in fuel capacity due to larger fuel tanks, the -300ER's range would still be 25% greater at equal payload. In a maximum payload situation, the -300 would only be able to fill its fuel tanks about 60%, while the -300ER could be filled to capacity.

Cut the fuel burn 25% (As the A350XWB claims), and that is about 80,000lbm of fuel (just about 37 metric tons). Add in airframe weight savings that will be significant... And I see a MTOW below 300,000 kg... So with the right wing treatments, the A350XWB would be fine with 90k of thrust. (Slightly below the 773 which really needs 94k of thrust at MTOW.)

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 32):
To split your difference, the specified engine thrust for the A350XWB-1000 is 95 000lb.
It will be sufficient to propel the 295t aircraft.
295t will be sufficient to deliver the specification (of 350 pax @ 8 325Nm)

95k at 295t is a well powered aircraft!  bigthumbsup 

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13764
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 32):
To split your difference, the specified engine thrust for the A350XWB-1000 is 95 000lb.

Well pardon me for misunderstanding, but the GP7000 mentioned above in the article is a "90,000" not a 95,000, and the RR mentioned will have "90,000-95,000" which to me read as if they are not solid on exactly where it will fall?

So, will the 350-1000 with GP7000 (or nexgen version) not have 8325nm range? Will the only 350-1000 with that range be a variant of the RR engine, which is optional on the A350-1000?

If so, aren't airlines who want the full capability of the jet still limited to one supplier, RR?

I still don't see 95k being enough, but in 8 years from now, maybe people will become thinner and luggage will be banned, and it will work...  Smile
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1769
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:45 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350X

Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 1):
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
A new-generation, 90,000-lb.-thrust engine for the A350-1000 would provide Airbus with a suitable power source for the proposed A380-900 stretch, as well.

I assumes they mean the a350-900R? Looking at the graph, that falls in the same thrust category as the -1000.

No, they mean A380-900 just like it says in the article. By sheer coincidence  eyebrow  the thrust ranges for the A350 and A380 overlap, much as the 767 and 747. I don't know what certification costs would be for the new engine/airframe combination, but it would make no difference to the engine maker's bottom line... (four of one versus two pairs of the other)

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 32):
Don't know where you get this from. It been reduced so quietly that even Airbus don't know.

A'man, take a look at the Airbus website, under A350 family. They have indeed 'updated' the numbers Big grin
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13764
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 36):
A'man, take a look at the Airbus website, under A350 family. They have indeed 'updated' the numbers 



Quote:
The A350-800 can fly 270 passengers up to 8,300 nm./15,400 km. in a spacious three-class configuration. The A350-900 will have a range of 8,100 nm./15,000 km., while the A350-1000 version can fly a distance of 8,000 nm./14,800 km., with seating capacities for 314 and 350 passengers, respectively.

Sure looks like 8000 nm to me. But what do I know.

Again, the table Keesje showed was old, as it didn't have the 77W or the 35X accurately depicted.

It should be 7930nm vs. 8000nm. The 7930nm is based on a real flying plane, the 8000nm is based on a concept. Functionally, they are within the margin of error.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
keesje
Posts: 8757
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: GP7000 Could Become Genx Alternative For A350XWB

Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:19 pm


Pratt & Whitney unit could play a role in developing a second engine for the Airbus A350 despite the project's challenges, Pratt & Whitney President Stephen Finger told Dow Jones Newswires.

Along with General Electric Co. (GE), Pratt & Whitney is part of the Engine Alliance to make engines for the Airbus A380 superjumbo jet. So far, G.E. has kept its distance from the A350 project - Airbus' effort to develop a competitor for Boeing Co.'s (BA) new 787 jet - leaving Rolls-Royce PLC (RR.LN) the A350's only engine maker.

But some airlines have said they'd like a choice of engines before they commit to the new Airbus plane. If G.E. decides not to become involved with the A350, that leaves room for the Engine Alliance to adapt its engine for the project, Finger said in an interview on the eve of the Paris Air Show.

"I think there's potentially a business case there," Finger said. But he acknowledged that adapting the engine would bring technical and regulatory challenges.

For one thing, the Engine Alliance's A380 engine is certified for a four- engine airplane, not a two-engine jet like the A350. This means the engine would need significant extra development to increase its power and meet the new requirements. GE faces a similar quandary for an engine it has developed on its own; so far it has decided to stay on the sidelines.

Also, the plan from Airbus parent European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co. ( 5730.FR) for the A350 includes three different models. Fitting all three is a tough challenge, particularly the longest-range of the proposed versions. "It depends on whether you try to cover all of them and what the timing would be on each of the individual models," Finger said.

There's no timetable for when the Engine Alliance might enter the fray. "It's fair to say that the Engine Alliance has studied it and is in a situation where we're letting our partner work through their aspects of it," Finger said.

For now, the Engine Aliance also is in a holding pattern on the A380 because of the big plane's development delays. The team may not resume making A380 engines for months more, depending on how that plane proceeds.

Finger said the A350 program shows that "the marketplace always likes a choice of engines." But he said he doesn't see a connection between the commercial jet world and the Pentagon, which is weighing whether to develop one engine or two for the $300 billion Joint Strike Fighter project.



http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...OWJONESDJONLINE000175_FORTUNE5.htm
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway