El Al 001
Topic Author
Posts: 978
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AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:58 pm

AC serves TLV with a nonstop 763 service from YYZ.
This operation had its ups and downs but was usually described as being a cash cow for AC.

AC was already serving TLV from both YYZ and YUL with 9 weekly flights ( summer 2000??) and there were a lot of talking of AC moving to A343 instead of 763.
With all political events at Israel, AC was forced to adjust its services to TLV according to demand.

More than a year ago, AC moved its TLV-YYZ red eyes flights to morning departures ones causing the schedule to look less attractive but enabling to utilize the 763s on the route better.

But, as all major airlines at TLV increasing their capacity to TLV, it seems like AC is doing the opposite.
This summer for instance, AC will fly only 5 weekly flights instead of 7 in summer 06.

Any info regarding AC further plans for TLV?

Michael
 
YULYMX
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:19 pm

Wouldn't suprise me if a near futur they fly back there from YUL
 
sebring
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting El Al 001 (Thread starter):

But, as all major airlines at TLV increasing their capacity to TLV, it seems like AC is doing the opposite.
This summer for instance, AC will fly only 5 weekly flights instead of 7 in summer 06.

I don't know about whether the route is a cash cow, but the new departure time and reduction to five flights is almost certainly a result of an aircraft shortage. The AC fleet is undergoing major changes. Some 767s are being retired or returned to lessors. At least one plane is always in the hanger being refurbished with the new business class product and in-seat video system. At the same time, the airline has begun taking delivery of its 777s, and in 2010 will start receiving 787s My guess is that next year or the year after, the airline will return to daily service from Toronto, at least in the summer.
 
IAD380
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:09 pm

A quick check on Amadeus indicates that AC may now be offering five flights a week to TLV throughout the year. In the past, AC flew to TLV every day during the summer, but only three or four days a week in the winter.
 
El Al 001
Topic Author
Posts: 978
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:16 am

Yep, up untill one year ago AC was flying daily to TLV, but this summer only 5 weekly.
And this is while all other main airlines at TLV just increased capacity.
Seems wierd to me.
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:19 am

AC's YYZ-TLV is not exactly a cash cow, but would speculate that it is profitable. AC does not serve any route (to the best of my knowledge), unless it is reasonably to highly profitable -- thus the demise of Delhi.

Summer is undoubtedly AC's busiest period on the YYZ-TLV route, and has lost 2 weekly frequencies because of the ongoing 767XM project during what is traditionally a very busy time. Other flight/route adjustments have occurred because of "XM", and a shortage of 767 aircraft -- YYZ-CDG (2nd frquency), YYZ/AMS (suspended).

The profitablity of TLV has most probably improved due to the adjusted operating times, and a relatively short turnaround of 1:30 compared to the previous schedule which saw the aircraft sitting for approximately 7 hours. In AC's eyes, aircraft sitting on the ground do not generate revenue, and apparently parked aircraft at TLV are very costly.

The 340's never operated TLV on a regular basis. There may have been the odd "ad-hoc" flight. IIRC, under the Canada Israel bilateral, there is a cap on maximum weekly seats operated by each airline (AC & LY). If this is the case, AC went for frequency as opposed to a larger aircraft with a less frequent schedule. Think this a likely and probable 787 route, if TLV maintains its revenue targets.

I for one hope the route prospers--great destination and layover!!  Cool
Above and Beyond
 
CXA330300
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:34 am

I also expect that AC funnels some of the traffic via FRA on its *A partner LH.
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
El Al 001
Topic Author
Posts: 978
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:09 am

So basically if AC was able to operate TLV daily this summer, there wouldve been such?

All is because lack of 767s this year due to XM?
 
a380us
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:31 am

actually i believe quite a number of people fly to JFK/EWR to transfer to LY CO 6H and soon DL
www.JandACosmetics.com
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting El Al 001 (Reply 7):
So basically if AC was able to operate TLV daily this summer, there wouldve been such?

Yes.

Also, bear in mind that LY has gone from 8 weekly summer flights to the current 4 or 5.

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 6):
I also expect that AC funnels some of the traffic via FRA on its *A partner LH.

On my FRA flight manifests indicating connections there are periodically a handful of FRA/TLV connections. I believe that actually a fairly well travelled connection route is on OS - YYZ/VIE/TLV.
Above and Beyond
 
IAD380
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:01 am

Quoting El Al 001 (Reply 4):
And this is while all other main airlines at TLV just increased capacity.

Which "main airlines" have increased their capacity to TLV?

I am aware that there are more flights to some destinations in Eastern Europe, and DL plans to start JFK-TLV flights next year. TK has added flights to TLV to fill the void that LY left when it abandoned IST. Other than that, CO, BA, AF, IB, LH, LX, AZ and other carriers have not increased their frequencies to TLV, or upgraded to larger aircraft. No major carriers have recently added TLV to their networks despite rumors that KE, CX, and other American carriers (NW, UA, US) planned to do so.

Actually, tourism to Israel seems flat. I am not aware that there have been a dramatic increase in the number of Israelis travelling abroad. Although a strong economy in Israel may mean more business travellers, there may not be enough of them to induce any airline to increase capacity to TLV.
 
LXA340
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:26 am

OS also increased last year to double daily at the same time when AF did so. Regarding capacity BA added a 772 on the day fligh, LH operates the A346 on the night flight but also all happened already last year, since then no changes. Besides adding frequencies, TK also increased capacity on their aircraft at least one daily flight on an A332 somethimes even all flights.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:28 am

My brother flew on the flightdeck of an AC 767 on the return leg to YYZ from Zurich. The flight crew also often flew YYZ to TLV. He told them even without a full passenger load the planes usually flew close to MTOW because they put as much cargo in the hold as possible. The told him that the flight was quite lucrative because of that. The number of passengers needed on the flight was therefore less than normal to turn a profit. How many passengers were needed they didn't say.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:53 am

Quoting A380US (Reply 8):
actually i believe quite a number of people fly to JFK/EWR to transfer to LY CO 6H and soon DL

Why would they go through the hassle of customs twice in each direction and bottlenecks in NYC to catch LY to TLV from JFK/EWR? I would think the AC and LY flights direct from YYZ would be far more desirable. Wouldn't there be more fees and taxes flying though JFK/EWR as well?
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:56 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 13):
Why would they go through the hassle of customs twice in each direction and bottlenecks in NYC to catch LY to TLV from JFK/EWR? I would think the AC and LY flights direct from YYZ would be far more desirable.

No different than the high number of customers flying from LAX, EWR-NYC, ATL, etc via YYZ on AC to TLV. For many customers, price trumps convenience.
Above and Beyond
 
CXA330300
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 9):
On my FRA flight manifests indicating connections there are periodically a handful of FRA/TLV connections. I believe that actually a fairly well travelled connection route is on OS - YYZ/VIE/TLV.

Is this the case more from YUL?

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 10):


Actually, tourism to Israel seems flat. I am not aware that there have been a dramatic increase in the number of Israelis travelling abroad. Although a strong economy in Israel may mean more business travellers, there may not be enough of them to induce any airline to increase capacity to TLV.

Tourism to Israel has been increasing lately according to government figures. There hasn't been a huge jump in capacity, though, as the current capacity seems to be adequate for the market.
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
jfk787nyc
Posts: 478
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:14 am

Fees & Taxes are not true.

Toronto Pearson is the most expensive airport in the world, Something like that.
I was there in the last two weeks and there are signs up all over the place by airlines to help sign a petition to make it cheaper.

But, flights from Tel Aviv - Toronto via New York could be done. Yes, you clear customs twice but, it is cleared in New York. Once on arrival into the United States from Tel Aviv. And 20 mins later when you are checking in for the flight to Toronto it is really not much of a difference.

But, Flights from New York to Toronto are pretty expensive. I wish JetBlue starts flying there. Anyway, I paid with a week advance notice $370 on Delta an Comair. for a 45 min flight.
 
jfk787nyc
Posts: 478
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:59 am

RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:17 am

Ben Gurion airport (TLV) is expecting this year 10.3 or 10.4 million passangers flying in and out of the airport. That is up from 9.3 in 2006.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: AC YYZ-TLV Going Where?

Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 16):
Fees & Taxes are not true.

Toronto Pearson is the most expensive airport in the world, Something like that.
I was there in the last two weeks and there are signs up all over the place by airlines to help sign a petition to make it cheaper.

If you fly YYZ-JFK-TLV you are still impacted by Pearson fees and Canadian Nav and Security Fees but connecting through JFK adds JFK fees and US fees on top of that. I don't think the average person going from Toronto to Tel Aviv is going to start their journey driving to the United States to avoid YYZ fees.

YYZ landing fees may be the highest in the world but as I understand it other airports charge extra for many of the services included in YYZ landing fees so without the price list of other airport it is hard to determine how it all adds up. The petition in the airport is actually to try and get the government to stop charging the airport astronomical rent when so many competing North American airports pay low or no rent and some get government subsidies.

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