kl911
Posts: 3981
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Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:53 pm

Just read this in the Financial Times:

Source : http://www.ft.com/cms/s/5d6d532a-1830-11dc-b736-000b5df10621.html

quote:

The depressing thing is the relentless predictability of it all. The interminable delays at security. The shuffling crowds in search of somewhere to sit as yet another flight is delayed. Worst, when you eventually escape you know the reprieve is only temporary. You will soon be flying back to broken travelators, long queues at immigration and mayhem in baggage reclaim. Welcome to Heathrow.

I could go on. I will. I have seen too much of Heathrow lately to feel anything but rage towards one of the world’s busiest airports. Starved of investment, inefficient and understaffed, it is a veritable money machine for its owner BAA. For the rest of us it is a nightmare – the unacceptable face of monopoly capitalism.

End quote....


For thee whole story see the website.

KL911
 
MMEPHX
Posts: 143
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RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:06 pm

precisely why I avoid LHR at all costs. The most overcrowded, passenger unfriendly airport I've had the displeasure of flying through. I connect through AMS when traveling to Europe. An airport that has got it just about right, spacious, clean, well maintained and even still manages to cram in plenty of shops. T5 will help Heathrow but even that won't help much to solve the crowding issues in T2 & T3. I don't understand the fascination with airlines wanting to fly to LHR. It will get even worse when open skies finally takes effect. Even more long haul, larger aircraft flying in, more people etc. But BAA don't care, as long as the shops make money.
 
Elite
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RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:07 pm

Avoid long-haul flights on Boeing 777s – for reasons unexplained they always seem to park on remote stands miles from the terminal.

Anyone know the answer to this mystery?
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:10 pm

Quoting MMEPHX (Reply 1):
I connect through AMS when traveling to Europe

The funny thing about AMS is that they make a lot of money, mainly from the retail areas ( about 1/3 of their profit) and the high charges to airlines and passengers, but they also invest every year a large amount in updating and renovating. I've never been at AMS without seeing an area being closed due to refurbishing. I think it's better to continuously updat the airport then once every 20 years a whole terminal.

KL911
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:35 pm

The delays are bad, but not as bad as O'Hare in my opinion. My Thursday ORD-LHR was early into terminal 3, but my Friday LHR-AMS was an hour late. Yesterday I was delayed two hours from AMS-LHR, but that was partially equipment malfunction.

Now, while LHR can be hectic, I've never experienced the luggage nightmare. Yesterday, by the time I'd clear immigration - which was only about 15 min, my luggage was already on the conveyor at Terminal 4. That's far quicker than would ever happen at ORD.
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:42 pm

The reason why LHR is still preferred is because you can ride the Underground from LHR into downtown London, something not possible at LGW, which has its own train service into London. Mind you, I think the British Airport Authority should build a new airport on the Thames Estuary with high-speed rail service back to either Waterloo or St. Pancreas stations in London and phase out both LHR and LGW.
 
LHR27C
Posts: 846
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RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting Elite (Reply 2):
Avoid long-haul flights on Boeing 777s – for reasons unexplained they always seem to park on remote stands miles from the terminal.

Rubbish to be honest, there is no earthly reason why 777s are more likely to get allocated remote stands than any other widebody, just depends on the ground situation at the time and AOSU's allocation.

This guy seems to do a lot of complaining in his article without much suggestion of what to do about it. I don't believe that splitting up BAA is going to be the magic solution to LHR's problems. He seems to think it will result in more being spent on improving the passenger experience. In fact to give BAA credit they are investing a lot into doing just that, renovating T3, T5 next year and now Heathrow East going ahead to replace T1 and T2, but it's not going to be easy at an airport processing hugely more passengers than its facilities were designed to.

Inherently, LHR is plagued with problems in that it is vastly overcrowded and slot constrained. Whenever anything goes slightly wrong to upset the balance, like fog at Christmas, everything comes crashing down - where it wouldn't have at most other major airports. And the only long term solution to that is going to be expansion outside the airfield boundary. Right now the airport is in more need of another runway than anywhere else on the planet. You get people like this guy in the UK who complain and winge about the state of the airport, and having to spend ages in holding patterns, and hate that it's so overcrowded, but I'm sure they'll be the very same people heavily opposed on the grounds of climate change etc to building a third runway or terminal 6, or going mixed mode, which are really the only solutions to their problems. The UK is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Of course, there is a strong argument that theoretically a third runway would actually help reduce pollution in that it would result in much less need for holding patterns and ground delays with engines running. Can the environmentalists see that? In your dreams.
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2132
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RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting LHR27C (Reply 6):
Rubbish to be honest, there is no earthly reason why 777s are more likely to get allocated remote stands than any other widebody, just depends on the ground situation at the time and AOSU's allocation.

This guy seems to do a lot of complaining in his article without much suggestion of what to do about it. I don't believe that splitting up BAA is going to be the magic solution to LHR's problems. He seems to think it will result in more being spent on improving the passenger experience. In fact to give BAA credit they are investing a lot into doing just that, renovating T3, T5 next year and now Heathrow East going ahead to replace T1 and T2, but it's not going to be easy at an airport processing hugely more passengers than its facilities were designed to.

Inherently, LHR is plagued with problems in that it is vastly overcrowded and slot constrained. Whenever anything goes slightly wrong to upset the balance, like fog at Christmas, everything comes crashing down - where it wouldn't have at most other major airports. And the only long term solution to that is going to be expansion outside the airfield boundary. Right now the airport is in more need of another runway than anywhere else on the planet. You get people like this guy in the UK who complain and winge about the state of the airport, and having to spend ages in holding patterns, and hate that it's so overcrowded, but I'm sure they'll be the very same people heavily opposed on the grounds of climate change etc to building a third runway or terminal 6, or going mixed mode, which are really the only solutions to their problems. The UK is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Of course, there is a strong argument that theoretically a third runway would actually help reduce pollution in that it would result in much less need for holding patterns and ground delays with engines running. Can the environmentalists see that? In your dreams.

 checkmark 
 
CV580Freak
Posts: 886
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RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:02 pm

I've never had a problem travelling through LHR. My last trip to BAH on GF was a dream. Arrived at the airport at 08.00 for the 10.00 flight, was checked in and through immigration and security and seated in TGIF's by 08.30. On the return leg the queue at immigration was quite long but moving and my bag was sailing around the baggage belt when I got there.
One day you are the pigeon, the next the statue ...
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting CV580Freak (Reply 8):
I've never had a problem travelling through LHR. My last trip to BAH on GF was a dream. Arrived at the airport at 08.00 for the 10.00 flight, was checked in and through immigration and security and seated in TGIF's by 08.30. On the return leg the queue at immigration was quite long but moving and my bag was sailing around the baggage belt when I got there.

But where you tranfering to another flight in another terminal? because to me that's the biggest problem. AMS-LHR is always easy for me, but a transfer can be hell.

KL911
 
max999
Posts: 946
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting LHR27C (Reply 6):


Inherently, LHR is plagued with problems in that it is vastly overcrowded and slot constrained. Whenever anything goes slightly wrong to upset the balance, like fog at Christmas, everything comes crashing down - where it wouldn't have at most other major airports. And the only long term solution to that is going to be expansion outside the airfield boundary. Right now the airport is in more need of another runway than anywhere else on the planet. You get people like this guy in the UK who complain and winge about the state of the airport, and having to spend ages in holding patterns, and hate that it's so overcrowded, but I'm sure they'll be the very same people heavily opposed on the grounds of climate change etc to building a third runway or terminal 6, or going mixed mode, which are really the only solutions to their problems. The UK is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Of course, there is a strong argument that theoretically a third runway would actually help reduce pollution in that it would result in much less need for holding patterns and ground delays with engines running. Can the environmentalists see that? In your dreams.

You seem to lay the blame on people who are opposed to expanding the airport. However, the writer makes a good point here...I listened the other day to one of the company’s managers explaining that the wait at security (this in the so-called fast track) was due to lack of space in Terminal 4. Nothing could be done until Terminal 5 opened next year. This from an airports authority that allocates 48,000 square metres to shopping malls.

Building a third runway will give LHR more slots, but does nothing to increase capacity in the terminals. And there's no guarantee that T5 will not be another gigantic shopping mall.

Blaming environmentalists might be easy, but the fact is that expansion at LHR will not fix the customer experience unless BAA changes its attitude.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting LHR27C (Reply 6):
Rubbish to be honest

...a rather accurate summary for much of this article.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Rivet42
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 10):
Blaming environmentalists might be easy, but the fact is that expansion at LHR will not fix the customer experience unless BAA changes its attitude.

Very well put.  checkmark 
I travel, therefore I am.
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:08 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 10):
I listened the other day to one of the company’s managers explaining that the wait at security (this in the so-called fast track) was due to lack of space in Terminal 4. Nothing could be done until Terminal 5 opened next year.

Lack of space? Not in my experience. Last time through T4 there was one, out of four, machines being used. It was explained that because it was a bank holiday, they couldn't get the staff.

Although I am BA Gold, I intend to avoid Heathrow, it just isn't worth. Next flight to BJS via FRA, then BKK via AMS.
 
VC-10
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 5):
The reason why LHR is still preferred is because you can ride the Underground from LHR into downtown London, something not possible at LGW, which has its own train service into London.

What is the difference? From LHR your train ride is Underground, from LGW the train ride is Overground. In both cases you end up in central London
 
geotrash
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:25 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting KL911 (Thread starter):
the unacceptable face of monopoly capitalism.

Or the unacceptable face of unrestrained regulation.
 
StarGoldLHR
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:29 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:02 am

DON'T DESPAIR...

THERE IS HOPE....

save £29 on the BAA owned heathrow express.
save 1 hour from the centre of london to heathrow (paddington is not the centre of london.. not by any means).
save 2 hours queuing in line
save 1 hour waiting for the xray machine
Check in with 20 minutes and still make the plane
Dont worry about being screamed at for the size of your carry on
No long walks to the gate
No buses to the gate


Step 1: www.londoncityairport.com
Step 2: fly to another european airport
Step 3: fly onwards from their.

and guess what..


You'll won't leave on time here either... chances are... you'll leave early and arrive even earlier !
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
max999
Posts: 946
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 16):
DON'T DESPAIR...

THERE IS HOPE....

save £29 on the BAA owned heathrow express.
save 1 hour from the centre of london to heathrow (paddington is not the centre of london.. not by any means).
save 2 hours queuing in line
save 1 hour waiting for the xray machine
Check in with 20 minutes and still make the plane
Dont worry about being screamed at for the size of your carry on
No long walks to the gate
No buses to the gate


Step 1: www.londoncityairport.com
Step 2: fly to another european airport
Step 3: fly onwards from their.

and guess what..


You'll won't leave on time here either... chances are... you'll leave early and arrive even earlier !

Great for short, domestic flights, but no such hope for the millions of long-haul fliers coming into London every year.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
LHR27C
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:49 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 10):
Building a third runway will give LHR more slots, but does nothing to increase capacity in the terminals.

A third runway at LHR would certainly help terminal capacity, as it would probably include a terminal 6 next to it, to save all aircraft having to cross 09L/27R to reach it.

Quoting Max999 (Reply 10):
And there's no guarantee that T5 will not be another gigantic shopping mall.

Have a look at the plans, or give it a try next year. It will be a completely different experience to what is at LHR at the moment.

Quoting Max999 (Reply 10):
Blaming environmentalists might be easy, but the fact is that expansion at LHR will not fix the customer experience unless BAA changes its attitude.

You can't say BAA are doing nothing when T3 is being heavily renovated, T5 is almost finished and Heathrow East will be ready for 2012. I'm not trying to defend them, but there's only so much you can do with terminals designed for far less people than the airport is processing, and only so far you can go without expanding outside the very small area LHR occupies compared to other airports handling similar numbers of passengers. Hopefully T5 and Heathrow East will help to make the customer experience somewhat better but until LHR gets a third runway it will be plagued with delays in the air and on the taxiways that somewhat negate the effort put into the new facilities.

(By the way, LHR was ranked one of the best airports in the world in a poll recently on the grounds of its incredible array of duty free!!)
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
 
max999
Posts: 946
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting LHR27C (Reply 18):

A third runway at LHR would certainly help terminal capacity, as it would probably include a terminal 6 next to it, to save all aircraft having to cross 09L/27R to reach it.

I've read about proposals to build the third runway, but I have not heard anything about terminal 6. It would be logical to build both simultaneously to handle the capacity increase. If there is going to be terminal 6, BAA would have to acquire enough land for runway and terminal...keeping in mind there's going to be a lot of pushback from the local opposition regarding the large amounts of space that will be needed.

Quoting LHR27C (Reply 18):
Have a look at the plans, or give it a try next year. It will be a completely different experience to what is at LHR at the moment.

I have not seen the plans...is there a link to a website?

Quoting LHR27C (Reply 18):

You can't say BAA are doing nothing when T3 is being heavily renovated, T5 is almost finished and Heathrow East will be ready for 2012. I'm not trying to defend them, but there's only so much you can do with terminals designed for far less people than the airport is processing, and only so far you can go without expanding outside the very small area LHR occupies compared to other airports handling similar numbers of passengers. Hopefully T5 and Heathrow East will help to make the customer experience somewhat better but until LHR gets a third runway it will be plagued with delays in the air and on the taxiways that somewhat negate the effort put into the new facilities.

(By the way, LHR was ranked one of the best airports in the world in a poll recently on the grounds of its incredible array of duty free!!)

I don't deny that there's been renovation and upgrades being done, but it seems like all the money was directed towards the shopping malls. That is what I meant by an attitude problem with the BAA. Old airports around the world have been renovated and brought to modern standards, but for LHR, the shopping malls are the only places which are up to date. Other essential parts of the airport (such as security lines, check in, customs, immigration, etc) is stuck in the 1960's.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
LHR27C
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:49 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 19):
If there is going to be terminal 6, BAA would have to acquire enough land for runway and terminal...keeping in mind there's going to be a lot of pushback from the local opposition regarding the large amounts of space that will be needed.

Compared to the amount of land required for the third runway and linking taxiways to the existing airport, a (smaller) terminal 6 wouldn't require much more land. BAA have got it carefully planned out (as you would guess!).

Quoting Max999 (Reply 19):
I have not seen the plans...is there a link to a website?

http://www.baa.com/portal/controller...dispatcher.jsp?ChPath=XYZTerminal5

Quoting Max999 (Reply 19):
I don't deny that there's been renovation and upgrades being done, but it seems like all the money was directed towards the shopping malls.

I can't argue that BAA certainly take full advantage of the duty free opportunities, then again they are also investing large sums of money back into the airport. Terminal 5 is not funded at all by the taxpayer for example. Give it a few years and for many passengers the terminals will be markedly improved, very little "stuck in the 1960s", even if they still have a fair bit of shopping opportunities!
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
 
jsnww81
Posts: 2297
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 19):
I don't deny that there's been renovation and upgrades being done, but it seems like all the money was directed towards the shopping malls. That is what I meant by an attitude problem with the BAA. Old airports around the world have been renovated and brought to modern standards, but for LHR, the shopping malls are the only places which are up to date.

I think this is what frustrates so many of us about LHR. It's true that investment is finally being made in the proper places (T5, the new check-in halls for T3, Heathrow East) but these are improvements that should have been made 10 years ago - which is precisely the time that BAA was pumping money into the new retail zones for T1 and T3. Now that the neglect has reached a critical mass, BAA are finally moving to correct it, but the process is twice as painful as it would be if they'd done the work in the 1990s. It's this behind-the-curve thinking that hurts LHR the most. When you step out of the shopping area at T3 and into the concourse, the airport becomes one of the most disgraceful in Europe.

Yes, it's difficult to upgrade 50-year-old infrastructure, but BAA simply ignored the problem until it was too late, and now any redesigns are complicated by the fact that the new shopping areas take up a lot of the space that could have been given over to passenger operations.

Quoting LHR27C (Reply 18):
Have a look at the plans, or give it a try next year. It will be a completely different experience to what is at LHR at the moment.

I want to believe BAA when they say that T5 will be a showcase facility. I really do. But I know that they're looking at all that space and salivating over the number of retail outlets they can cram into it. All those glass windows that can be covered up by duty free shops! Floor space that can be filled with Sock Shop and Tie Rack kiosks!

To be fair, I have seen a very small floorplan rendering, and it does look like T5 will have massive amounts of simple open circulation space - which is exactly what the other four terminals lack. I just wonder how long it will last - after all, when T4 opened in 1986, the departure lounge was much more open than it is today.
 
Rivet42
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 21):
I want to believe BAA when they say that T5 will be a showcase facility. I really do. But I know that they're looking at all that space and salivating over the number of retail outlets they can cram into it. All those glass windows that can be covered up by duty free shops! Floor space that can be filled with Sock Shop and Tie Rack kiosks!

Yes, this is indeed a valid concen, one which I shared, until I read (can't remember where) that BA have been very tough in driving the focus on comfort ahead of retail, much (allegedly) to BAA's frustration.

I don't see much chance of T3 and Heathrow East going in the same direction, as no doubt BAA will want to recoup the retail income that they going to lose out on in T5...

Of course we all want to be proved wrong. I'd love LHR to be as pleasant a connecting experience as AMS, Heathrow is after all my 'home' airport, and I have spent far too much of my life there already. However, since there is no intention to blend T3 and Heathrow East into each other, and T5 and T4 are where they are, Heathrow will forever be blighted by its history. Which is exactly why it is even more important to focus far more on comfort than retail. BAA generates very substancial income already from landing fees and existing retail franchising, they should be obliged to plough the vast majority of that back into the airport itself, rather than using it to pay shareholders and subsidise other parts of the Ferovial business. Of course that raises the issue of whether such a key piece of infrastructure should be in private hands at all, but unfortunately it is, and it'll certainly remain that way.

Riv'
I travel, therefore I am.
 
EI564
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 9:05 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:14 am

Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 21):
I want to believe BAA when they say that T5 will be a showcase facility. I really do. But I know that they're looking at all that space and salivating over the number of retail outlets they can cram into it. All those glass windows that can be covered up by duty free shops! Floor space that can be filled with Sock Shop and Tie Rack kiosks!

This has a lot to do with how the BAA is regulated also. They are forced to make a huge amount of their money from shops, not from airport charges. In fact, its those shops that keep airport charges lower than they otherwise would be.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18974
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 14):
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 5):
The reason why LHR is still preferred is because you can ride the Underground from LHR into downtown London, something not possible at LGW, which has its own train service into London.

What is the difference? From LHR your train ride is Underground, from LGW the train ride is Overground. In both cases you end up in central London

But most of the Underground from LHR to central London is actually above-ground! And the train from LGW is much faster than the Underground from LHR, although less frequent. The Heathrow Express train is fast but too expensive.

LHR has been shabby and depressing since my first visit in 1970, and I've been to (or through) it at least once almost every year since, but now do my best to avoid it. LHR Terminal 4 was an improvement when it opened but it's also the worse for wear now with worn carpets, walls overdue for repainting etc.
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
But most of the Underground from LHR to central London is actually above-ground!

Only the section of Piccadilly Line track from Hounslow Central to Barons Court.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:18 am

It's true. I fly NYC-LHR-NYC about 8 times a year and let me tell you, Heathrow was once one of my favorite airports to one that frankly, I would prefer to avoid. It's dirty, tired, crowded, congested, difficult to navigate, and delay prone. With the EU/US deal done, it is only going to get worse. Terminal 5 is being sold as a solution, but it really isn't. If you don't fly BA, you will be relegated to the now dingy T1-2-3-4 experience and it won't be pretty.
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:04 pm

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 26):
Terminal 5 is being sold as a solution, but it really isn't.

Can you imagine what a T5 to T1/2/3 or 4 connection is going to be like? Knowing BAA they will probably send you to T4 on one bus so you can grab another to the Fright (sic) Connection Centre.

Since they can't accommodate all BA flights at T5 this type of misery will continue ... forever
 
LHR27C
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:49 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:49 pm

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 26):
If you don't fly BA, you will be relegated to the now dingy T1-2-3-4 experience and it won't be pretty.

T2 will be closed and demolished pretty much as soon as T5 is open and all the airlines have been reshuffled around the terminals, with the first part of Heathrow East being built on it. Then T1 will shut to build the rest of Heathrow East. In five years only T3 and T4 will remain from the LHR that is today, with T3 being heavily renovated.

Quoting ANother (Reply 27):
Since they can't accommodate all BA flights at T5 this type of misery will continue ... forever

BA flights that can't fit in T5, Spain and Italy IIRC because they'll be operated exclusively by 757s, will all be in T3 which is of course closest to T5, as will the rest of oneworld, so they're doing as much as they can to make connections easier.
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
 
757ops
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:32 pm

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:55 pm

Quoting Elite (Reply 2):
Avoid long-haul flights on Boeing 777s – for reasons unexplained they always seem to park on remote stands miles from the terminal.

Anyone know the answer to this mystery?

I agree with UAL777UK I work at Heathrow and my 757's are often sent to remote parking spots, and usually that problem lays with the carrier for bringing you in off schedule, and at LHR that doesnt always mean late, but if you arrive too early you can find yourself on remote parking bays!
 
UbiDenmark
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:24 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:24 pm

Why is the proposal to build a fourth runway at Heathrow always referred to as the proposal to build a third runway ? The third existing runway 23/5 is almost never used.

Is this a deliberate deception to make the proposal seem more reasonable ? Why is 23/5 used almost exclusively as a taxiway when the airport claims to be in such desperate need of additional runway capacity ?
 
bennett123
Posts: 7441
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:42 pm

Any scope for spotiing landside or indeed airside, or is that a silly question ?  Wink
 
AirNZ
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:03 pm

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 9):
But where you tranfering to another flight in another terminal? because to me that's the biggest problem. AMS-LHR is always easy for me, but a transfer can be hell.

This seems to be a constant gripe from some on a.net. I'm sorry, but what utter nonsense and pray tell me what exactly is the great and seemingly insurmountable difficulty in transferring from one terminal to another!!! They are relatively beside each other (in that they are not 20 miles or something apart!) so how hard is that to do for some people.....or do they simply need a nursemaid to hold their hand? No, I'm not saying it's the easiest thing in the world and things can happen to delay etc, but for goodness sake how much rocket science is involved in simply transferring between terminals?
Flown:F27/TU134/Viscount/Trident/BAC111/727/737/747/757/767/777/300/310/320/321/330/340/DC9/DC10/Dash8/Shorts330/BAe146
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2132
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:01 pm

Quoting Ubidenmark (Reply 30):
Is this a deliberate deception to make the proposal seem more reasonable ? Why is 23/5 used almost exclusively as a taxiway when the airport claims to be in such desperate need of additional runway capacity ?

If any aircraft tried landing on that runway now there would be a disaster on our hands, apart from the fact that I think its been officially decomissioned as an active runway, theres all kinds of obstacles in its way now.

It was only ever used on very windy days in the past and certainly does not help with the congestion problems at LHR, hence the need for a further parallel north of 9L/27R
 
AirSpare
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:13 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting 757ops (Reply 29):
too early you can find yourself on remote parking bays!

That answers why my AA flights from MIA were parked downtown, they (surprise!) were almost always early.

I never complained about LHR after I flew through CDG, BUT, the one carry on bag rule is killing it for me. I always connected through to LOS or LAD, carrying a camera and lenses, plus a work PC and the "cannot lose at any cost" items, I don't have room for a small pack to fill with the goodies to take with me.

I past through LHR Sunday, from LAD onward to MIA-MCO and the security line at T4 was disgusting. Come on, be realistic, I just got of a BA flight, passed in a bus passed how many parked aircraft, and you want to now x-ray my carry on? Silly. But after a 8+ hour flight, a walk to another terminal is kind of welcome.

I was told that Jul 1 there will be no smoking in the airport, sounds like AMS for me.
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
LHR27C
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:49 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:44 pm

Quoting Ubidenmark (Reply 30):
Why is the proposal to build a fourth runway at Heathrow always referred to as the proposal to build a third runway ? The third existing runway 23/5 is almost never used.

Is this a deliberate deception to make the proposal seem more reasonable ? Why is 23/5 used almost exclusively as a taxiway when the airport claims to be in such desperate need of additional runway capacity ?

23/05 doesn't exist any more. LHR has two runways. 23/05 has been decommisioned and just forms part of the Alpha taxiway. Plus at the top end it's all being torn up into new 27R holding area, and it has two stands (170 and 171) adjacent to it There's absolutely no chance any aircraft could land or takeoff on it.

Even if it did exist, trying to use it at the same time as the two parallels would be a recipe for disaster and merely hinder additional movements rather than help. Especially as, when it was used, all the remote stands at T4 beyond the 05 end had to be cleared... causing chaos for BA who already have enough difficulty finding places to put their aircraft at T4 with all stands open.
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
 
bennett123
Posts: 7441
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:03 pm

Does the one bag rule include lap top bags.

Alternatively you could carry the camera round your neck with a zoom lens on and pack the rest.

I have also seen some rucksack type lap top bags, (which would include some space for other things).

Seriously once you take the lap top out of the bag, then remove your jacket, shoes and belt, the one bag rule is the least of your problems.
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 36):
Does the one bag rule include lap top bags.

One means one. If you have a wheelie and a hand bag - the hand bag has to go into the wheelie before security.
 
cygnuschicago
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:34 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 36):
Does the one bag rule include lap top bags.

Yup, they are incredibly strict. I ran foul of this on Friday morning transiting from AA at T3 to KLM at T4. They made me clear immigration to check either my laptop bag, or my 18" roll aboard, before I could go to T4 airside.

While I was obviously annoyed, in hindsight I love it. In my opinion a contributor to delays and long boarding times in the US is that people are carrying on multiple huge bags. It was a delight being nearly the last to board the full KLM flight and still have storage rack space for my laptop bag.
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
Glom
Posts: 2051
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:38 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting Ubidenmark (Reply 30):
Why is the proposal to build a fourth runway at Heathrow always referred to as the proposal to build a third runway ? The third existing runway 23/5 is almost never used.

Is this a deliberate deception to make the proposal seem more reasonable ? Why is 23/5 used almost exclusively as a taxiway when the airport claims to be in such desperate need of additional runway capacity ?

Yeah, right! Imagine two aircraft on finals, one for 23, the other for 27R. That I'd like to see. Preferably from far, far away. BANG!

It is for that reason it's declaration has been rescinded. 23 was a relic from a bygone age before T4.
 
AirSpare
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:13 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 36):
Alternatively

This is not a solution for me. I am carrying 2 bodies and 7 lenses in a carry on size Pelican, along with a super small Gitzo CF trippod and a mini RRS ballhead. I use it for work and play on long term assignments. The Pelican is lockable, would you leave a 1,200 buck Zeiss Hologon unlocked in any hotel room? Worse in Africa? Flying biz or F, overhead storage is not a problem, I'm stowed and asleep before most PAX board.

Who really cares about how long it takes other PAX to board? The plane takes off regardless, but if posters like to think less is more, well, good luck with that.
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
trintocan
Posts: 2725
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2000 6:02 pm

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:39 am

LHR misery is right! I flew in there yesterday from MUC on BA and, despite the pilot making up time from a late departure at MUC and landing 5 minutes ahead of time, the passengers could not deplane because the jetway was not working! In the end, BA had to ask BAA for a stairs truck to come around. The lot of us on the flight were thus only able to disembark some 25 minutes later! I will wait until the Trip Report to say more about this but suffice it to say that this is LHR in its not-so-good way.

As far as the Piccadilly Line is concerned, it is actually overground between Barons' Court and Hounslow West, not Central; the line just goes underground to get to Hounslow West station then remains underground for the rest of the way to LHR apart from emerging to cross the River Crane just before arriving at Hatton Cross. The Heathrow Express is itself also underground just after branching off the Great Western Main Line west of Hayes & Harlington (which is a stop on the sister Heathrow Connect service). Interestingly, the Heathrow Connect is being promoted now as a cheaper means to the airport from Paddington after having been almost the "hidden sister" to the faster and more expensive Express (before making this move the fare to LHR from Paddington was the same on both services) but of course one using the Connect will see the train making 5 stops before arriving at either destination (3 on Sundays as West Ealing and Hanwell are shut), see a Heathrow Express train wizz past as one is stopped or stopping somewhere and have just 2 services per hour as compared to 4 Express trains.

BAA are VERY strict about the 1 bag rule, I have experienced this is EDI too as I had to cram some items which I had in a plastic bag into my case to pass through security. This will also be explored in a Trip Report...

TrinToCan... clearly having some writing to do...
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:21 am

Quoting KL911 (Thread starter):
could go on. I will. I have seen too much of Heathrow lately to feel anything but rage towards one of the world’s busiest airports. Starved of investment, inefficient and understaffed, it is a veritable money machine for its owner BAA. For the rest of us it is a nightmare ?the unacceptable face of monopoly capitalism.

What means monopoly capitalism ?? London has already 3 major Airports !!

But let imagine what would happen to 525, 670 or 1000 pax leaving or arriving through customos and baggage
handling in a A380 ??

aminobwana
 
StearmanNut
Posts: 344
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:54 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:34 am

I was in Heathrow T-3 last week. I see why it is passenger unfriendly. Most of the moving walkways were out of order. There is a long distance between where one has to disembark to customs then to ground transport. This entails walking for what seems to be miles. I will say that ground transport with hotel buses and regular busses and the train and underground are in one place, but getting there is a huge hassle if one is disabled ( or like me; out of shape).

Leaving out of T-3 was not so bad.
If wishes were horses, a Tail Dragger I would fly...
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3072
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:46 pm

Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 21):
think this is what frustrates so many of us about LHR. It's true that investment is finally being made in the proper places (T5, the new check-in halls for T3, Heathrow East) but these are improvements that should have been made 10 years ago

I'm sure BAA would have loved to build T5 10 years ago, unfortunately our archaic planning laws resulted in a 5 year public enquiry, which allowed assorted campaigners to "have their day in court"; and then finally gave permission for T5 just as the vast majority always thought it would.

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 34):
I just got of a BA flight, passed in a bus passed how many parked aircraft, and you want to now x-ray my carry on? Silly. But after a 8+ hour flight,

Perhaps, but compared to arriving at a number of US airports and having my bag x rayed before I can leave the airport ?because the design cannot segregate arriving passengers from departing passengers.
 
Glom
Posts: 2051
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:38 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:56 pm

When do they break ground on Heathrow East?
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:10 pm

For all of you that think T5 will make a 'difference' have a look at this article from the Guardian. 700 seats - a new definition of terminal torture!

[Edited 2007-06-15 14:11:06]
 
max999
Posts: 946
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 46):
For all of you that think T5 will make a 'difference' have a look at this article from the Guardian. 700 seats - a new definition of terminal torture!

This proves that T5 will not improve the customer experience...it's shopping mall status quo for BAA.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3072
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Put An End To The Heathrow Misery

Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 46):
For all of you that think T5 will make a 'difference' have a look at this article from the Guardian. 700 seats - a new definition of terminal torture!

This quite simply cannot be correct. 700 seats would mean literally a handful at each gate. As the report is in the Guardian who with their history of typographical errors have been long known as the "Grauniad" it was probably 7000 or more.

Not having seating at the gates would cause problems for BA, as passengers would tend to wander off looking for a seat, and then be late for boarding.