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LTU932
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First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:37 am

The first Tupolev Tu-204 for Cuba's Cubana is among several of the twinjet airliners being prepared for delivery in Ulyanovsk by Russian manufacturer Aviastar.

Cubana's Tu-204-100E flew for the first time on 9 June and is due to be handed over to the airline on 20 June, followed by a freighter variant three days later.


Full article: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...u-204-for-cubana-prepared-for.html

I hope to see that TU-204 here at SJO soon, and get a glimpse of the PS-90 engine as well.
 
kl911
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:07 am

That's great! Wish we could see more TU-204's in Europe. The 757 was a beast , but this one is just beautifull! Guess I have to wait till I'm in MUC again to see a few? Or plan my holiday to link HAV with SXM maybe?  Smile

Which route will they use them for? MIA? Or do they still have that silly embargo?

KL911
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
Or do they still have that silly embargo?

Due to the embargo, CU flights to the US are still out of the question.

But I could see the TU-204 slowly replace the A320s CU wetleases from TA (specifically the EI-TA* registered ones, not the American registered ones for obvious reasons), along with maybe a few of their oldest Yak-42s. I'd say YYZ could be a possible destination, maybe also Central America.
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:19 am

I thought the first freighter version was delivered a couple of months ago, but if I recall correctly Cubana ordered three of them. Here is a picture: http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/viewphoto.main?LC=&picid=3631 .
 
kl911
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
Or do they still have that silly embargo?

Due to the embargo, CU flights to the US are still out of the question.

How about charters? Thought they flew between USA and Cuba? Who operates those? Guess non US or Cuban airlines? European?

Another question, MP flies AMS-HAV, but also to MIA in conection with other central arican destinations. Would it be possible fot them to have HAV as a tag from MIA? AMS-MIA-HAV-AMS?

KL911
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:34 am

Commercial flights between Cuba and the US are a no no. There are some charters sometimes under restrictions, done by AmericanEagle, Continental and others. But American citizens are actively prosecuted if found out they visited Cuba. I flew Havana-Santo Domingo-Havana on Cubana (il-62) two weeks ago and there were some Americans on board for whom this was a way to visit Cuba without their government finding out. MP would run into trouble I guess if they try flights like that. I flew Martinair AMS-HAV and back and we flew over Miami. of course if we had an emergency we could have landed there I hope.
The last 3 Il-62s of Cubana are now still pretty busy on regional routes, like Santo Domingo, Caracas and Cancun. I hardly seen any A-320s when I was there. I imagine the new Tu-204 will also replace these gaz guzzlers.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
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LTU932
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
How about charters? Thought they flew between USA and Cuba? Who operates those?

US airlines do operate charters into HAV, but those require special permissions (I believe from the Treasury Department, correct me if I'm wrong). If US citizens want to go to Cuba, they'd usually do it through Mexico or Canada, since those countries still have scheduled flights to the island.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
Another question, MP flies AMS-HAV, but also to MIA in conection with other central arican destinations. Would it be possible fot them to have HAV as a tag from MIA?

It would most likely not be possible. The US would either require major paperwork for this (something that can become very time consuming, in any country), or just outright deny them the right to operate scheduled flights from the US to HAV on a triangular routing. I doubt it would even make sense for MP, which is a leisure airline and can sustain flights to HAV nonstop both ways. If MP was interested in operating MIA-HAV, IMO it would most likely be with 5th Freedom Rights on that sector, like DE on SDQ-SJO, but given the political situation, it ain't gonna happen.
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:37 am

Thanks. On a sidenote, does MP have 5th freedom on their AMS-MIA-SJO?

Sorry for hijacking the thread....  Smile

KL911
 
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LTU932
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 5):
American citizens are actively prosecuted if found out they visited Cuba.

I heard that Cuban Immigration doesn't stamp American passports for that reason. Is that true?

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 5):
I flew Martinair AMS-HAV and back and we flew over Miami. of course if we had an emergency we could have landed there I hope.

I'm sure that in an emergency situation, it would be possible. It would also be possible for a CU aircraft to land in the US in an emergency (I believe they can still fly through US airspace, despite the restrictions), but I wonder how it'd be if a CU aircraft does land in the US for an emergency and how US authorities would handle that situation.
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):
I'm sure that in an emergency situation, it would be possible. It would also be possible for a CU aircraft to land in the US in an emergency (I believe they can still fly through US airspace, despite the restrictions), but I wonder how it'd be if a CU aircraft does land in the US for an emergency and how US authorities would handle that situation.

Ofcourse, NW landed in Teheran a while back with problems, same happened in Israel with 'hostile' carriers making emergency landings. We're all humans..
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 7):
MP have 5th freedom on their AMS-MIA-SJO?

Not exactly. MP has 7th Freedom Rights on MIA-SJO, since AMS-MIA-SJO isn't a direct flight and you have to change planes in MIA (even though MIA-SJO is bookable).

http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/freedoms_air.htm
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):
heard that Cuban Immigration doesn't stamp American passports for that reason. Is that true?

They don't stamp ANY passport, you get a separate sheet of paper to take along in your passport and which will be taken out, so no traces left of your visit. On one way I regretted not collecting a Cuban stamp, on the other hand, my passport IS already giving me a hard time with some axes of evil country visa in it.
But a few years ago especially in Toronto, Americans have gotten in trouble when the US observed them boarding or deboarding the Cubana and Air Transat flights to Cuba.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:59 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):
Quoting KL911 (Reply 7):
MP have 5th freedom on their AMS-MIA-SJO?

Not exactly. MP has 7th Freedom Rights on MIA-SJO, since AMS-MIA-SJO isn't a direct flight and you have to change planes in MIA (even though MIA-SJO is bookable).

That's not correct as far as I know. MP's service MIA-SJO (and MCO-SJO) is 5th freedom. Although they use an A320 on those sectors, the flights are still considered as a continuation of MP's flights originating in AMS. If MP eliminated AMS-MIA or AMS-MCO service, they wouldn't be able to keep operating AMS/MCO-SJO. 7th Freedom rights (which are rare) would permit MP to operate MIA/MCO-SJO on a stand-alone basis which I am quite certain is not the case.

There are numerous examples of carriers basing smaller aircraft in another country to operate 5th freedom sectors, e.g. NW 757s in NRT, IB DC-9s and A320s when they had a connecting hub in MIA, many US carriers who based 727s/737s etc. in Europe to operate 5th freedom sectors.until the early 1990s. The fact that it's a different aircraft on one sector of the trip (which is known as "change of gauge") doesn't make it a 7th freedom operation.
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:45 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
That's not correct as far as I know. MP's service MIA-SJO (and MCO-SJO) is 5th freedom. Although they use an A320 on those sectors, the flights are still considered as a continuation of MP's flights originating in AMS. If MP eliminated AMS-MIA or AMS-MCO service, they wouldn't be able to keep operating AMS/MCO-SJO.

Thanks. I stand corrected.
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
The 757 was a beast , but this one is just beautifull!

Out of curiosity, why do you consider the 757 "a beast"? And what, in particular, makes the TU-204 "beautiful"?

I'm asking because the two are very similar in looks, to most people. There are, of course, differences when you look more closely, but what do you like?
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
But I could see the TU-204 slowly replace the A320s CU wet leases from TA (specifically the EI-TA* registered ones, not the American registered ones for obvious reasons), along with maybe a few of their oldest Yak-42s. I'd say YYZ could be a possible destination

I hope so. I still miss seeing the IL-62s and TU-154s that Cubana used to bring here in the 90s, and earlier I think. At least we got to see their IL-96 for a few weeks last winter.
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:08 pm

This is great news! I wish more and more orders would go to the Russian plane makers, as it is a great option for carriers not willing, or not having the option to order A or B manufactured aircraft.

On a side note: There was a rumor going around that Syrian Air was planning to order IL96s and TU204s for their fleet update, I think there was even some sort of signing on a state level, what happened to that deal? Anyone have a list of orders and upcoming deliveries of Russian manufacturers?
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LTU932
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 17):
On a side note: There was a rumor going around that Syrian Air was planning to order IL96s and TU204s for their fleet update, I think there was even some sort of signing on a state level, what happened to that deal?

I don't know about that, but if you read the article I linked, Mahan Air will get 2 TU-204s on lease from Egypt's Sirocco Aerospace International (both will be powered with RB211-535E4s and not PS-90As), while CA will take delivery of a TU-204-120CE Freighter (also with RB211-535E4 engines and additionally with Honeywell avionics) at the end of the month (the delay that deferred delivery until the end of the month is apparently because of legal issues).
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:01 pm

Mahan Air already operated Tu-204-120 leased from Cairo Aviation on Tehran-Dubai route. Some photos are avaible in the DB.
Iran Air Tour, Kish Air and Caspian should receive Tu-204-100 but after a 40 aircrafts order was signed a few years ago, we are still waiting for the first one????
Syrian Air was also looking for Tu-204 and Il-96 (as Air Zimbabwe) but nothing's coming even if these two airlines wanted Il-96-400, not 300s! Now the first one is nearly ready (for Atlant Soyouz), maybe they'll make firm order.
First China Airlines Tu-204-120CE is also in the DB (registration B-2871). I wonder if the aircraft on the photo is the same or the second to come.
Hard to have correct informations with Russian aircrafts orders!
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:03 pm

Quoting Khobar (Reply 15):
Out of curiosity, why do you consider the 757 "a beast"? And what, in particular, makes the TU-204 "beautiful"?

The 757 is a beast regarding it's power. And the 204 is in my opinion a beauty. ( 757 also, but I favour the 204)
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:37 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 20):
Quoting Khobar (Reply 15):
Out of curiosity, why do you consider the 757 "a beast"? And what, in particular, makes the TU-204 "beautiful"?

The 757 is a beast regarding it's power. And the 204 is in my opinion a beauty. ( 757 also, but I favour the 204)

Well. That explains everything.
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 11):
They don't stamp ANY passport, you get a separate sheet of paper to take along in your passport and which will be taken out, so no traces left of your visit.

This is true, I was there last summer. However, I did ask that they stamp my passport and they gladly obliged.

I've often wondered if that little stamp would cause me problems getting into USA but haven't had an issue yet.


On the subject of the TU-204.....I sure hope we get to see that baby at YYZ.
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 20):
The 757 is a beast regarding it's power. And the 204 is in my opinion a beauty. ( 757 also, but I favour the 204)

Thank you for the clarification.

I've seen comments about the 204's winglets, and I've seen comments about the lines of the 204's rear fuselage. It did not seem beyond the realm of possibilities that you might prefer the 204 over the 757 just as some consider the DC-8 to be a beauty compared with the 707 and vice versa, etc. Cheers.
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:19 am

A little off topic but here is a good web site with the " nine freedoms of the air"

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/Data/freedoms.htm
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
Or do they still have that silly embargo?



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 11):
But a few years ago especially in Toronto, Americans have gotten in trouble when the US observed them boarding or deboarding the Cubana and Air Transat flights to Cuba.

 white   white  come on... Let's not hijack this again.

Here is my question, back to topic: how would a TU204 compare to the 757 performance-wise? Points :
The 757 is no longer available out of the factory.
The demand and interest for it looks high since it's just getting massively used on short transatl flights, with no other alternative size- and range-wise combined.
How would one carrier who wants to start such a network of routes deal with that?
Would a TU-204 be suitable? Is the 757 the actual BEST choice for AA, NW, DL, CO, or did they use it just because it was already in the fleet and got freed up thanks to the domestic downsize trend?
To me, it looks that the only customers for the TU-204 pax have come from the US enemy countries, so it looks a bit like a "political" airplane that reminds me the obscure days of the Cold War....
Anyone would mind clarify?
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LTU932
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 24):
To me, it looks that the only customers for the TU-204 pax have come from the US enemy countries, so it looks a bit like a "political" airplane that reminds me the obscure days of the Cold War....

I wouldn't say it like that. The issue with Russian airliners and why they don't sell in the West is mostly due to two things:

1. Limited technical support. The three majors offer comprehensive technical support for their aircraft (e.g. through MRO training, by signing up MROs as major partners for one aircraft family (e.g. like what happened with Delta Tech-Ops, when they became a Boeing partner for MRO on the KC-767, should Boeing win the contract from the DOD) and extended warranties). Russian manufacturers do not seem to be that good when it comes to this (correct me if I'm wrong though).
2. Prejudices from the flying public. Many people will say that a Russian aircraft (e.g. a TU-154) is unsafe because it was built in Russia, and not by companies such as Airbus, Boeing or Embraer. Hence they'd rather prefer to fly on a Western aircraft than on a TU-154 or even a modern IL-96. Airlines have to listen to their customers after all.

Thus many Western airlines do not order Russian aircraft, even if the aircraft is superior to its Western equivalent, because of passenger prejudice and insufficient technical support. However, things could change with the SSJ100, since Sukhoi got Boeing to extend its involvement in the Superjet programme and they're now a partner for technical support and crew training. This could be a sign for change, if other design bureaus and manufactuers (e.g. Tupolev, Ilyushin, Aviastar, VASO) follow suit, which is however unlikely. Boeing most likely commited itself to the SSJ because Sukhoi isn't competition and Boeing has pulled out of the 100 seat market with the shutdown of the 717 line.

There is of course one exception, which is TNT. TNT operates a few Egyptian registered TU-204 freighters and have been quite pleased with them.
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 25):
However, things could change with the SSJ100, since Sukhoi got Boeing to extend its involvement in the Superjet programme

Thanks for the clarification. Also, I don't think Sukhoi is as well known as Tupolev or Ilyushin to be inherited from the Soviet era but rather for fighter jets, so maybe less negative perception from the public...
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:37 pm

That article also mentioned that Air China Cargo was getting ready to take delivery of their TU204-120CE. There are several pics of this aircraft in the database.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrei Pechenkin
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrei Pechenkin



I do not see any large cargo doors in these pics. How is this plane going to be loaded? Or actually, after looking at the pics again, it looks like there might be one over the words Air China in the first picture??

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LTU932
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:48 pm

Quoting Csturdiv (Reply 27):
Or actually, after looking at the pics again, it looks like there might be one over the words Air China in the first picture??

Look carefully and you'll see something that resembles door hinges above the Air China titles. The SCD is there.
 
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:51 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 5):
The last 3 Il-62s of Cubana are now still pretty busy on regional routes, like Santo Domingo, Caracas and Cancun. I hardly seen any A-320s when I was there. I imagine the new Tu-204 will also replace these gaz guzzlers.

Interesting to hear that. While I was in Cuba in April, I visited HAV three times - all the times, several TACA A320's were busily arriving and departing the airport, while I saw hardly any Il-96 movements (which might have something to do with the time of day of my visit and the roster of these birds). There were up to three Il-62's at the gates plus the odd Yak-42. From my impression, only one or two Yak's seems to see regular service on domestic and international routes, while the ATR- and An-24 fleets are kept pretty busy especial on short national flights.
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:57 pm

How efficient is the TU-204 in comparison with the 757?
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RE: First Cubana TU-204 Prepared For Delivery

Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
7th Freedom rights (which are rare) would permit MP to operate MIA/MCO-SJO on a stand-alone basis which I am quite certain is not the case.

Actually, Martinair did just that for about a year using Miami Air's 738, but discontinued the service due to losses on those routes.

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