Lumberton
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Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:59 pm

M. Gallois appears quite sensitive to any comments by the competition WRT the A350XWB. In this article, by Dominic Gates, he publicly chides the Boeing CEO.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...logy/2003750119_a350gallois16.html

Quote:
When he returned in the afternoon to close the seminar, he said that in the car on the way over he'd read a report in Le Monde newspaper quoting Boeing Chief Jim McNerney as saying the A350 design specification is not yet solid.
Gallois did not conceal his irritation.
"I prefer to talk about my product," he said, "I don't like when my competitor is talking about my product."
"What Jim McNerney said is wrong," Gallois said. "It's completely unfair to say that."

The merits of his criticism notwithstanding, will he muzzle his chief salesman in return?

Edit: Here's another article on M. Gallois' public irritation.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...ness/EU-FIN-France-Airbus-A350.php

Quote:
Boeing reclaimed the top sales spot in 2006, winning more orders than Airbus for the first time since 2000 after the introduction of the Dreamliner. It may reclaim the title of the world's largest plane maker — classed in terms of deliveries — next year when it starts shipping the 787. The A350 XWB won't be available until 2013.
In a clear change of tactics, Gallois claimed not to care.
"I don't think that our target is to sell more airplanes than Boeing," he told reporters. "Our target is to be the best company and not the biggest. I think that's a change from the past. I don't care if I have 45, 48 or 52 percent of the market."

Is this defensive posture a good thing heading into the airshow?

[Edited 2007-06-16 15:04:37]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
NAV20
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:15 pm

I get the impression that Gallois is a good honest bloke but somewhat out of his depth. The reverse of Harry Truman's famous comment, "A four-ulcer man in an eight-ulcer job."

What McNerney said - that "the A350 design specification is not yet solid" - is no more than the verifiable truth.

IMO Gallois shouldn't have responded at all. Leave alone cried 'Foul!".........

[Edited 2007-06-16 15:26:28]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Poitin
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:25 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 1):
What McNerney said - that "the A350 design specification is not yet solid" is no more than the verifiable truth.

IMO Gallois shouldn't have responded at all. Leave alone cried 'Foul!".........

My, my, the pot calling the kettle black. I would suggest Gallois review the many many comments Leahy and Airbus made about the 787 over the last few years.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
aa1818
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:29 pm

Gallios also seems to take offence to the comment saying only that it is untrue, but he doesn't qualify his disagreement, he should have said that the A350 is infact firm. Of course he can't say that, because the A350 is NOT solidly firm. He is definitely out of his depth and is being pushed up against a wall by a strong competitor and demanding customers!

Gallios can say he doesn't care about size etc, because Airbus is a state funded machine. They need not turn a profit, they need not do anything but exist.

Airbus is being outsold, might be outproduced and is certainly being trashed in terms of commanding a percentage of the marke value!

What do you expect Gallios to say when his firm is struggling? I do hope airbus get over some of their woes in the near future though and are able to deliver a quality A350 (even if it does take them 16 versions to get it right!)

AA1818
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jacobin777
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting Poitin (Reply 2):
My, my, the pot calling the kettle black. I would suggest Gallois review the many many comments Leahy and Airbus made about the 787 over the last few years.

I think he has been lately, IIRC, he's even contradicted Leahy a few times....Like his predecessor Streiff, Gallois seems to be "no-nonsense" kind of person....

What I find interesting however is even these guys read media publications (or are in tune with them to a certain extent)....I guess the media does have some sway after all.... spin 
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Poitin
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:40 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
I think he has been lately, IIRC, he's even contradicted Leahy a few times....Like his predecessor Streiff, Gallois seems to be "no-nonsense" kind of person....

What I find interesting however is even these guys read media publications (or are in tune with them to a certain extent)....I guess the media does have some sway after all.... spin

If Gallois is a no-nonsence kind of guy, let him fire Leahy before complaining about what others say.

And maybe they all read A.net as well Big grin
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:57 pm

I just grabbed the paper off the porch and read the article.

Personally, I think it is important for Airbus to take a stand and move forward with determination on the A350. They've played around with it for some two years now, adapting many of the technologies that Leahy and Forgeard dismissed on the Sonic Cruiser/7E7/787.

Hedging their bets yet again just pushes more and more customers with A350 commitments to secure slots with Boeing for the 787, for even though Boeing is hitting some snags with building the 787, they are at least building the 787. As much an "advantage" the A350 has against the 787 by seeing what the Boeing product does first then matching or exceeding it, if the A350 never leaves the drawing board because it keeps changing, it won't matter. It's like if Boeing launched the MD-12 concept as a real plane in 2015 and it was better then the A380 in every way, but Airbus had already sold enough A380s to meet the demand for VLAs so nobody needed an MD-12, even if they wanted it.

And Gallois might be a pragmatist, noting that the A350 is coming to market years after the 787 has secured the balance of A332/767 replacement orders and the 77L/77W/77F have secured much of the expansion market, leaving it to fight with (most likely) HGW 787s for the 772/A333/A340 replacement market which will be large, but will still probably give Boeing the majority (55-65%) of the 200+ seat market going forward.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:03 pm

Quoting Poitin (Reply 5):

If Gallois is a no-nonsence kind of guy, let him fire Leahy before complaining about what others say.

...bit hypocritical, true....but I think he's giving Leahy some slack right now given the precarious situation Airbus/EADS is in......I wouldn't be surprised Gallois hasn't given Leahy "a word or two" behind closed doors...

Quoting Poitin (Reply 5):
And maybe they all read A.net as well  biggrin 

Parent company EADS would be filing for bankruptcy within a couple of weeks.. biggrin 

...what's interesting is has been his consistency about market share rather than "selling planes on the cheap to win an order"...especially in lieu of the potential BA VLA order...
"Up the Irons!"
 
NAV20
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:11 pm

Maybe another comment by Gallois deserves consideration:-

"I don't think that our target is to sell more airplanes than Boeing," he told reporters. "Our target is to be the best company and not the biggest. I think that's a change from the past. I don't care if I have 45, 48 or 52 percent of the market."

In terms of numbers of orders this year, Airbus (roughly 200 against 400) has only about 30% of the market. In terms of value, given that a high proportion of Airbus' sales are single-aisles while a high proportion of Boeing's are midsizes, the situation is even worse; Airbus probably has no more than 20%. Anything LIKE 45% is surely already out of Airbus' reach for years to come?

Which makes you wonder how much even Gallois knows (or recognises, in his own mind) about Airbus' TRUE situation?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 3):
Of course he can't say that, because the A350 is NOT solidly firm.

Just on a side note - I've heard thru the grapevine that Airbus is now talking about having two different wings (or at least modified) on the A350. One will be for the -800/-900, the other will be for the -1000 and potential -1100.

Regards,

Hamlet69  profile 
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NAV20
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:16 pm

Thanks Hamlet69. Perhaps they'd better start calling them the A387 and the A377?  Smile
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Stitch
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 9):
Just on a side note - I've heard thru the grapevine that Airbus is now talking about having two different wings (or at least modified) on the A350. One will be for the -800/-900, the other will be for the -1000 and potential -1100.

Interesting. I was of the opinion Boeing might do the same, developing a new wing for the HGW 787's to improve performance because the current wing seems optimized for MTOWS of around ~550,000lbs even though Boeing built in almost 100,000lbs of MTOW growth into the design (it is said that with strengthening, it can lift 640,000lbs).

Both the 787 and A350 wings had growth built-in, but perhaps the airlines are really pushing for more significant step-changes due to the expected life of these airframes (thanks to CFRP) that they want more "mission optimized" models?
 
Joni
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):


In terms of numbers of orders this year, Airbus (roughly 200 against 400) has only about 30% of the market. In terms of value, given that a high proportion of Airbus' sales are single-aisles while a high proportion of Boeing's are midsizes, the situation is even worse; Airbus probably has no more than 20%. Anything LIKE 45% is surely already out of Airbus' reach for years to come?

Perhaps not "for years to come", as the A350XWB sales can pick up in the next years, and if the plane is better than the B787 (as they claim) then Airbus can in 2 years time (say) have once more an excellent position with the A320, A350XWB and A380.

Incidentally, his point about market share not being the #1 priority is what Boeing is saying as well.
 
NAV20
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 12):
Airbus can in 2 years time (say) have once more an excellent position with the A320, A350XWB and A380.

Sorry, Joni. but no. The A320 is still a goer, yes, and maybe the A330 can hold its own for a time; but the A350 (whichever version) cannot contribute anything in terms of positive revenue until 2013 at the earliest; and we already know, from EADS' own forecasts, that the A380 will be making a loss on production until at least 2010.

I'm not saying that Airbus can't 'turn the corner' eventually. But it will take a lot longer than two years - more like six or seven. I'm just surprised that, from his comments, Gallois (of all people) simply doesn't seem to realise that.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Lumberton
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:42 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 12):
and if the plane is better than the B787 (as they claim)

There is no option here. It HAS to be better--at least to the current 787 offering. Period. Mr. Leahy is already on the record as saying a "me too" airplane won't cut it.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
astuteman
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:01 am

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 9):
Just on a side note - I've heard thru the grapevine that Airbus is now talking about having two different wings (or at least modified) on the A350. One will be for the -800/-900, the other will be for the -1000 and potential -1100.

FWIW there will be one or two of us who wouldn't be surprised by this......
In terms of wing area per tonne MTOW, the A3510 is pretty near to the B789, but appears to be slightly limited in span (the 789's aspect ratio is 10.4, the A3510's is 9.3).

The A359 appears slightly overwinged, and the A358 is most definitely overwinged, on current specs.

For me, ideally, the A358/9 should have a c. 380m2 wing on 64m span, and the A3510 its current 440m2, but on a 68m span (but this exceeds ICAO cat E..)

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
Perhaps they'd better start calling them the A387 and the A377?

Duh? The 787 has THREE different wings in the family (already - notwithstanding any "HGW" possibilities) - you think Boeing should call these different families too?
Or are you suggesting that more than 1 wing is stupid?
Wait on while I ring Boeing - they might want to know.........

Regards
 
BizFlyer
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:11 am

All that is being said in this thread and others, doesn´t excite me really.

Airbus is at the ground now, but Boeing was before.

The whole airliners business is cyclic, both in terms of airline-business, and makers business.

As there are never two winners, the cyclic nature of the business refers also to who is ahead of the other.

So, in one sentence, all is normal and in some future we will see Airbus up and Boeing down and vice versa, it is just the nature of this business.

Kind regards,

BizFlyer
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NAV20
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 15):
Duh? The 787 has THREE different wings in the family (already - notwithstanding any "HGW" possibilities) - you think Boeing should call these different families too?

Hi Astuteman - I take it 8th. June went well? Even though it was not a launch but just a 'rollout,' shipyards (like every OTHER bloody thing) have changed since my business days..........

I don't think there's much argument between us that Airbus are trying to compete with two aeroplanes (787 and 777) with a single model? The fact that they are now considering two wing designs instead of one, after all this time, surely suggests that they have (once AGAIN) backed the wrong horse?

In any case, on the topic, surely if Airbus hasn't yet settled the wing design, Gallois can have no complaints about McNerney saying that the A350 design isn't 'solid'?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Lumberton
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
In any case, on the topic, surely if Airbus hasn't yet settled the wing design, Gallois can have no complaints about McNerney saying that the A350 design isn't 'solid'?

 checkmark  Good point. Is it or isn't it "firmed up"?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
thebry
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 12):
Incidentally, his point about market share not being the #1 priority is what Boeing is saying as well.

At last, both sides may be able to drop this "sales war" attitude and focus on the customer.

However, we have to define market share. If it's point of sale info (share of sales in a given year) then they've been neck and neck for several years. If it's "installed base" (each manufacturers share of units currently in use by customers) then Boeing is far and away the leader here (even without the MD aircraft thrown in).
 
474218
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 1):
What McNerney said - that "the A350 design specification is not yet solid" - is no more than the verifiable truth.

IMO Gallois shouldn't have responded at all.

I agree, I was told many years ago: If someone takes the time and effort to refute something, it must be true.
 
Leskova
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
Is this defensive posture a good thing heading into the airshow?

Considering that most of the people criticising him on this thread have been calling for an Airbus CEO to present just exactly this kind of position, I can only find this whole discussion ironic at best...

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 1):
What McNerney said - that "the A350 design specification is not yet solid" - is no more than the verifiable truth.

Which Mr. McNerney, and you, would obviously know much better than Mr. Gallois...  Yeah sure

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 3):
Gallios can say he doesn't care about size etc, because Airbus is a state funded machine. They need not turn a profit, they need not do anything but exist.

Why does this nonsense keep popping up?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
astuteman
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:31 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
The fact that they are now considering two wing designs instead of one, after all this time, surely suggests that they have (once AGAIN) backed the wrong horse?

Once again, Boeing must have really stuffed up the 787 if the number of different wing configurations is a measure of "rightness".
The fact that they are now considering two different/modified wing designs suggests (to me), that they, like Boeing, recognise that there advantages to this, as well as disadvantages.
I'm struggling following a logic that implies that this is "good" for Boeing, but a "bad" thing when Airbus consider it.

And yes - the 8th June was easier to follow than this argument.
(Weather was better too....and at least we managed to beat the 787 to roll-out  Wink - it was touch and go at one time.... )

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
In any case, on the topic, surely if Airbus hasn't yet settled the wing design, Gallois can have no complaints about McNerney saying that the A350 design isn't 'solid'?

Can't argue with this one at all.
Even Airbus acknowledge final system design freeze at mid-08.
There are obviously "levels" of solidity. IIRC the 787-9's wing was "modified" only about a year ago..........
Can't see why he's worried about it ..  Smile

Regards
 
brendows
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 15):
Duh? The 787 has THREE different wings in the family

Wing designs? What do you exactly mean here? Yes, there are three models and three different wing spans, but the difference is not in the wing design itself, but the length and shape of the wing extensions. If you remove the wing extensions, the wings should be the same IIRC, except from some structural strengthening the higher TOW variants need.
 
NAV20
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:45 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 23):
I'm struggling following a logic that implies that this is "good" for Boeing, but a "bad" thing when Airbus consider it.

Putting it as simply as I can, Astuteman, the difference is that Boeing took the decision about 2003 and Airbus (if Hamlet69 is right) are only just getting around to taking it now........

Hope you get 'Astute' in the water soon. I saw a launch once (Daring Class Destroyer) and it remains one of the most impressive things I've ever seen.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
aminobwana
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 1):
IMO Gallois shouldn't have responded at all. Leave alone cried 'Foul!".........



Quoting AA1818 (Reply 3):
Gallios can say he doesn't care about size etc, because Airbus is a state funded machine. They need not turn a profit, they need not do anything but exist.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
I think he has been lately, IIRC, he's even contradicted Leahy a few times....Like his predecessor Streiff, Gallois seems to be "no-nonsense" kind of person....



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
If Gallois is a no-nonsence kind of guy, let him fire Leahy before complaining about what others say.
...bit hypocritical, true....but I think he's giving Leahy some slack right now given the precarious situation Airbus/EADS is in......I wouldn't be surprised Gallois hasn't given Leahy "a word or two" behind closed doors...



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
Which makes you wonder how much even Gallois knows (or recognises, in his own mind) about Airbus' TRUE situation?

GALLOIS is an insider charged to correct the mess which he helped to create from his position of coCEO at EADS.
In crass opposition the the fired Christian STREIFF, he is not a savvy private entrepreneur, but a bureaucrat, who was successful managing State Enterprises like SNCF. And as such, he is responsive to the French politicians which are manipulating EADS.

From what I read, I do not doubt of his intellectual capacity and that he sees very clearly the situation. But due to above facts, he does not know what to do. He was subject to repeated humiliation by the EADS board, where he is member, the most disturbing being February's refusal to approve his original Power 8, announced with great display for a certain date and discussed with the board, only to be vetoed one day before this date. The present Power 8 is a totally diluted version.

And of course he must be frustrated by the consequence-blind controversy between the German and French partners.

And his background of course make him rely, as AA1818 states, that finally the Government, as the new Prime Minister FILLON stated just a few days ago, will "assume his duties" regarding this "strategic enterprise" !!

A private entrepreneur would have resigned a long time ago, but as said, he is a disciplined bureaucrat. Obviously he is loosing his temper, as his reaction to McNerney's factual statements shows. Any savvy entrepreneur would, as NAV20 says, simply ignored them, as Boeing does with the behavior of John Leahy.

And finally: Leahy has by far an excessive influence at Airbus, being a favorite of the ex-CEO Foregeard, in turn a favorite and friend of Chirac. His big salesman posture, saying anything what he thinks the customer will like to hear, had success especially with the Gulf Airlines (surprisingly, now GUT is claiming a part of the merit there!), where he supported the exotic projections of their non-Arab executives. At this stage, he is a grave negative influence due to his lack of credibility, but M. Gallois for the reason stated has not the power to fire him. This type of situation is typical of state (or state influenced) enterprises.

Lets hope that Leahy will not be able, with the help of some orders (and MOU's) he could muster in Paris (which would do nothing to help to solve the existing problems) to present to the French and also the German politicians a picture which would allow them to hope that they could address the problem by stalling. Only a total break down of the LA and VLA situation will force the to do what must be done !!

This hope is just the contrary to AIRBUS bashing, it could be AIRBUS saving !

regards

aminobwana
 
astuteman
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting Brendows (Reply 24):
Wing designs?

Wing designs? I said Wing configurations

Quoting Brendows (Reply 24):
Yes, there are three models and three different wing spans, but the difference is not in the wing design itself, but the length and shape of the wing extensions. If you remove the wing extensions, the wings should be the same IIRC, except from some structural strengthening the higher TOW variants need.

The 787-3 has a 52m wingspan.
The 787-8 has a 60m wingspan
The 787-9 has a 62m wingspan.

And these differences are purely due to wing "extensions"?
Maybe so..........
Of course this particular characteristic is the exclusive preserve of Boeing and the 787............
You get my point.......
If Airbus elect, this month, to put different wing extensions on the different models, in practical terms, I can't see the issue. IMO it's the correct thing to do.
I also don't see it conflicting with where the aircraft is in the design lifecycle.
It may conflict with M. Gallois statement. That's a different issue.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 25):
Putting it as simply as I can, Astuteman, the difference is that Boeing took the decision about 2003 and Airbus (if Hamlet69 is right) are only just getting around to taking it now........

a) Last year was 2006 (which is when, I believe the 789's span increased from 60m to 62m
b) Now for the A350XWB is pretty much the same time in the product lifecycle as 2003 was for the 787.

Regards
 
jacobin777
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:54 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 23):
I'm struggling following a logic that implies that this is "good" for Boeing, but a "bad" thing when Airbus consider it.

...there is no logic...its A.net.... Wink

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 26):
From what I read, I do not doubt of his intellectual capacity and that he sees very clearly the situation. But due to above facts, he does not know what to do. He was subject to repeated humiliation by the EADS board, where he is member, the most disturbing being February's refusal to approve his original Power 8, announced with great display for a certain date and discussed with the board, only to be vetoed one day before this date. The present Power 8 is a totally diluted version.

...where is the "humiliation"? Streiff stepped down because of the "humiliations".....Gallois is still moving forward with the Power8 Program....maybe it won't be exactly the way they envision it to be (maybe it will), but it certainly is going to go forward and I think Gallois is a majour improvement over management a few years ago......
"Up the Irons!"
 
dank
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:58 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 27):
And these differences are purely due to wing "extensions"?
Maybe so..........
Of course this particular characteristic is the exclusive preserve of Boeing and the 787............
You get my point.......
If Airbus elect, this month, to put different wing extensions on the different models, in practical terms, I can't see the issue. IMO it's the correct thing to do.
I also don't see it conflicting with where the aircraft is in the design lifecycle.
It may conflict with M. Gallois statement. That's a different issue.

IIRC, didn't Boeing change maybe a root extension within the last year on the -9 to enhance their -10 offering (originally it was going to share the exact same wing dimensions as the -8, right). This is obviously a sign that Boeing didn't know what they are doing.  Wink

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
I don't think there's much argument between us that Airbus are trying to compete with two aeroplanes (787 and 777) with a single model? The fact that they are now considering two wing designs instead of one, after all this time, surely suggests that they have (once AGAIN) backed the wrong horse?

This makes the assumption that there are really categorized model segments in this space rather than a continuous market space that Airbus has selected to attack a portion of which covers part of the 787 space and most of the 777 space. Does the fact that Boeing appears to be choosing to go after both the 767 and part of the 777 market space indicate that they are also trying to take on two models. And if they go with an enhanced wing and undercarriage for the 787-10 and a longer range 787-9, should they call it a new model?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
Both the 787 and A350 wings had growth built-in, but perhaps the airlines are really pushing for more significant step-changes due to the expected life of these airframes (thanks to CFRP) that they want more "mission optimized" models?

I think also that we are seeing that these planes are going to span a much wider range of missions (both in capacity and sector length) making it harder to solve with a single solution (and remain competitive). Another reason that I find it hard to imagine that we are going to be able to see one model in the Y1 space, be it with different fuselage widths or wings.

cheers.
 
Poitin
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
In any case, on the topic, surely if Airbus hasn't yet settled the wing design, Gallois can have no complaints about McNerney saying that the A350 design isn't 'solid'?

checkmark Good point. Is it or isn't it "firmed up"?

Since they just changed the forward cabin and front landing gear, and reorganized the mains, I would say that the A350 is a design in progress. Even Airbus notes that the design will not be final until October 2008. The pity of it is Boeing is waiting on them so they can finalize their 787-10.
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davescj
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 3):
I do hope airbus get over some of their woes in the near future though and are able to deliver a quality A350 (even if it does take them 16 versions to get it right!)

While I'm not so certain it will take 16 versions...perhaps only 5 or six more.....The reality is they can't wait that long to produce a product. It is telling that they have moved to at least a partial composite plane, after critizing Boeing for moving away from Aluminium. Since Boeing may well start to use plastic on new planes period, Airbus will have to do the same with the A120 series et al for the same reasons -- fuel economy.
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aminobwana
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:57 am

BillReid wrote under another topic, quoting from
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070616/france_airbus_a350.html?.v=1
that M. Gallois said:

"When we have customers like Finnair, Aer Lingus and Qatar Airways, it's because the airplane is completely defined."
This statement was not included in the URL indicated in the present Thread Starter and therefore not commented by me in my reply 25 !

This evidently inaccurate statement shows that as I said in Reply 25, i.e that obviously he is loosing his temper, as his reaction to McNerney's factual statements shows.. Even if he said this as a heated reaction,, Shareholders could consider that they are being intentionally misled.

As I also said, EADS need a real shock to be pushed into action. M. Gallois could be suggested to proceed as M. Streiff did, i.e. resigning and stating candidly the reasons and the real situation of the company, warning of the consequences if the shareholders do not agree to a comprehensive solution.

Aminobwana
 
aminobwana
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 27):
...where is the "humiliation"?

Do you think its not a humiliation to be co-CEO of EADS, member of the board, discuss his draft of the plan with his colleages, annouce repeatedly the release of the plan immediately after the board meeting and schedule the press conference and union briefings, only to be forced to tell that the Board has refused to approve his plan one day before the announced date ???

By the way: the present Power 8 is a totally diluted version, which address some syntoms but does not the main structural problems. In the last days, M. Gallois is suggesting some additional measures, which himself can not implement as they must be approved by the feuding shareholders, as they precisely are affected by them

aminobwana
 
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zeke
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:18 am

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 9):

Just on a side note - I've heard thru the grapevine that Airbus is now talking about having two different wings (or at least modified) on the A350. One will be for the -800/-900, the other will be for the -1000 and potential -1100.

I have heard similar, airlines would be interested in the "1100" with the existing wing as a regional 773 (non ER) replacement. I suspect the bigger wing on the "1000" and "1100" would be for a range increase to match the A350-900R, and for a possible larger freighter between the A350-900F and A380-800F.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
jacobin777
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 32):

Do you think its not a humiliation to be co-CEO of EADS, member of the board, discuss his draft of the plan with his colleages, annouce repeatedly the release of the plan immediately after the board meeting and schedule the press conference and union briefings, only to be forced to tell that the Board has refused to approve his plan one day before the announced date ???

...while one doesn't see it to certain extent, it does happen..even if the Board "refuses" his plan one day before the announced date, he certainly has wide-scale support...who's to say the Board is "refusing" his plan a day or so before (maybe there are some other things which needs to be considered), and who's to say Gallois is doing all of this work by himself, in fact, I would say that he's got a whole group of people/management working on Power8 with him...

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 32):
By the way: the present Power 8 is a totally diluted version, which address some syntoms but does not the main structural problems. In the last days, M. Gallois is suggesting some additional measures, which himself can not implement as they must be approved by the feuding shareholders, as they precisely are affected by them

...to be quite fair Aminobwana, until its completed, we really don't know to what extent Power8 will be implemented.....Gallois has shown he can run a large corporation and is more than capable as a leader...

"Political skills

However, it has been his ability to combine strong management skills with a popular touch which has made him valued by politicians from both sides of the spectrum.

Despite being a left-wing radical in his youth and working as an aide to a Socialist government in the 1980s, he was appointed head of SNCF by a centre-right administration in 1996.

He remained in the job for a decade whichever party was in power, testament to his political as well as administrative skills.

During that time, he kept the state-owned firm in decent financial shape while trying to enhance its reputation as a progressive employer.

He sought to recruit more women and staff from ethnic minorities while making much of the fact that he made far less than comparable executives in the private sector.

Arnaud Morvan, secretary general of the railworkers union, praised Mr Gallois for his handling of labour relations at the firm. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5142590.stm
"Up the Irons!"
 
AvObserver
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
"Our target is to be the best company and not the biggest. I think that's a change from the past. I don't care if I have 45, 48 or 52 percent of the market."

While I think Gallois is overly sensitive as his snap at McNerney (is the pressure at Airbus getting to him?), I actually admire his above statement. While marketshare is important, it's not the whole game. Profitability counts also and I think Airbus often sacrificed a lot of that in the past in its mad dash to get ever more share by undercutting Boeing in so many competitions, even low-margin deals to LCCs. A balanced approach to winning sales and maximizing profits is a better long-term strategy, even if your share slips a few percentage points from time to time.
 
Poitin
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:41 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 31):
This evidently inaccurate statement shows that as I said in Reply 25, i.e that obviously he is loosing his temper, as his reaction to McNerney's factual statements shows.. Even if he said this as a heated reaction,, Shareholders could consider that they are being intentionally misled.

I think it is far more serious than Gallois loosing just his temper, he is loosing his grip on reality. In

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...logy/2003750119_a350gallois16.html

He basically tells Steve Udvar-Hazy, his largest customer, to buzz off. Steve does not like the aluminum frame any more than I do and I suspect for the same reason -- galvanic corrosion. In that article Steve says:

"We're OK with it as long as the skeleton structure is primarily composite," Hazy said. "We're looking for a composite frame on which to put the composite panels."

Wanna bet that he doesn't buy the current A350?

We should start a poll to see how long it takes Gallois to leave his current position as head of Airbus.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
slz396
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:42 am

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
It may reclaim the title of the world's largest plane maker — classed in terms of deliveries — next year when it starts shipping the 787.

Seems some ideas are very hard to put to rest once they catch on with the press.

A simple look at the planned production of both A and B should have learned the journalist who wrote this that in 2007, 2008, 2009 and most likely also in 2010, Airbus will be producing way more planes than Boeing.
 
MD-90
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
"I don't think that our target is to sell more airplanes than Boeing," he told reporters. "Our target is to be the best company and not the biggest. I think that's a change from the past. I don't care if I have 45, 48 or 52 percent of the market."

That is definately a change from the past. I remember Airbus execs making comments that sounded like they were pretty excited about being the biggest aircraft company in the world, both in orders and deliveries.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 36):
Wanna bet that he doesn't buy the current A350?

Whew, I wouldn't make that bet if I were you.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 36):
Wanna bet that he doesn't buy the current A350?

If Airbus sells more than 250-300 A350's within the next twelve months,he's obliged to follow -otherwise he's leaving the market for that aircraft to competitive leasing companies in the Gulf.
He might not like the currently proposed concept of CFK panels on Aluminum/Lithium frames,but if the airlines buy it...
The bottom line for his business is to lease aircraft to airlines,not to re-design airframes.Sometimes you wonder if he or Clark are the only two people who understand anything about aircraft technology,maintenance problems and cost of ownership. If I read his statements,all those airlines who will order the aircraft, are technology -illiterates ???
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:27 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 15):
The 787 has THREE different wings in the family (already

Not really, though I've seen writing that seems to indicate the 787-9 wing is changed alot more than just different wingtips. How much more I don't know
 
aminobwana
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:28 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 34):
Political skills

However, it has been his ability to combine strong management skills with a popular touch which has made him valued by politicians from both sides of the spectrum

Nobody doubt that he has the needed political skills to ran a French state company as SNCF and combine sound administration with a "popular touch". But there is the problem. Airbus is not a state monopoly as SNCF, but a commercial company with a extremely powerful competition, with financial and pricing problems unknown by a state monopoly,.
Further, obviously he is not able to free himself from his dependence of the French political establishemnt, which does difficult his relations with the private Daimler, who in turn is influenced by the German Politics.To cope with this explossive mixture, additionally weighted down by the Shareholder pact, only a fiercely independent ultrastrong personality can succeed, which he is not.

So, the only way I can see how a real restructuring can happen is Gallois gone, a suitable "powerul personality" chosen, give him full powers and let him act. STREIFF tried to get such powers and was immediately eliminated.
Could be that a real shock as I suggested will convince the players to accept such today. Of course, I do not know if STREIFF would have achieved success, but I repeat: this seems the only way to proceed, independently from what kind the restructuring itself would be.

And to continue to visit "Potemkin's villages" as Mr. John Leahy is inviting will only make the situation progressively worse until reaching a point of bo return

aminobwana
 
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Stitch
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:28 am

Udvar-Hazy has to think beyond just the first customer for any plane ILFC buys. Airline A may want to lease the A350 for a decade because it's available when they need it and does what they need it to do. But what about after that decade when Airline A returns it to the lessor? If the A350 proves to be more expensive to maintain or operate then the 787 after a decade, ILFC will have a harder time placing it profitably with Airline B and then C and so on.

So it's not a question of an airline being "technically literate" or "technically illiterate" because if they "bet wrong", they just end the lease early or don't renew it when it comes up. I believe it is more a question of what the future value of the A350 as it is currently planned compared to what the future value of the 787 will be because that is what is important to the lessors.
 
halls120
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
M. Gallois appears quite sensitive to any comments by the competition WRT the A350XWB. In this article, by Dominic Gates, he publicly chides the Boeing CEO.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...logy/2003750119_a350gallois16.html

Quote:
When he returned in the afternoon to close the seminar, he said that in the car on the way over he'd read a report in Le Monde newspaper quoting Boeing Chief Jim McNerney as saying the A350 design specification is not yet solid.
Gallois did not conceal his irritation.
"I prefer to talk about my product," he said, "I don't like when my competitor is talking about my product."
"What Jim McNerney said is wrong," Gallois said. "It's completely unfair to say that."
The merits of his criticism notwithstanding, will he muzzle his chief salesman in return?

McNerney is "unfair?"  Wow! Wow.

After the years of Leahy badmouthing his competition early and often, the new head of Airbus now takes offense at his competitor "talking" about his product?

I think we have a new benchmark for the definition of chutzpah.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
justloveplanes
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:01 am

This may be McNerney "baiting" Airbus to go public with the firmed A350 specs as much as they are. If JM and RT keep the pressure up on the PR front, A may eventually have to show their cards on the A350 specs.

So there is the possibility that the A350 is firmer than public discourse would seem to indicate, but the longer A keeps quiet about the specs, the longer it delays B's 777 counter response. As JM has said publicly, they will delay their 777 upgrade program until they can see what A is offering in the 3510. If A can stay silent longer the better.

However if the FUD keeps going on, A may HAVE to speak up to reassure shareholders, and tip their hand to B. .....media wars can be quite interesting.
 
Joni
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 13):
Sorry, Joni. but no. The A320 is still a goer, yes, and maybe the A330 can hold its own for a time; but the A350 (whichever version) cannot contribute anything in terms of positive revenue until 2013

Here we were discussing orders, not deliveries.
 
SEPilot
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:16 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 14):

There is no option here. It HAS to be better--at least to the current 787 offering. Period. Mr. Leahy is already on the record as saying a "me too" airplane won't cut it.

I elaborated on this on another thread; my take is that Airbus management has set performance goals for the A350 based on what they feel they need to meet in order to sell it, and basically told the engineers to meet them (but without going to barrels.) I think Gallois knows this and is his comments indicate to me that McNerney touched a nerve.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 37):
A simple look at the planned production of both A and B should have learned the journalist who wrote this that in 2007, 2008, 2009 and most likely also in 2010, Airbus will be producing way more planes than Boeing.

This is possible because both Boeing and Airbus have multi-year backlogs at present, and so they can build as many planes as they like. But Airbus sales are slacking off, while Boeing's are increasing. This trend must stop if Airbus is to be healthy when the A350 is ready to enter service.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 39):
If Airbus sells more than 250-300 A350's within the next twelve months,he's obliged to follow -otherwise he's leaving the market for that aircraft to competitive leasing companies in the Gulf.
He might not like the currently proposed concept of CFK panels on Aluminum/Lithium frames,but if the airlines buy it...
The bottom line for his business is to lease aircraft to airlines,not to re-design airframes.Sometimes you wonder if he or Clark are the only two people who understand anything about aircraft technology,maintenance problems and cost of ownership. If I read his statements,all those airlines who will order the aircraft, are technology -illiterates ???

Ester-Hazy and Clark are merely more vocal than the rest; I suspect they're saying publicly what the others are saying privately. Hence the underwhelming reception that the XWB is getting.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):

So it's not a question of an airline being "technically literate" or "technically illiterate" because if they "bet wrong", they just end the lease early or don't renew it when it comes up. I believe it is more a question of what the future value of the A350 as it is currently planned compared to what the future value of the 787 will be because that is what is important to the lessors.

 checkmark 
Good point.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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glideslope
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:04 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 41):
Nobody doubt that he has the needed political skills to ran a French state company as SNCF and combine sound administration with a "popular touch". But there is the problem. Airbus is not a state monopoly as SNCF, but a commercial company with a extremely powerful competition, with financial and pricing problems unknown by a state monopoly,.
Further, obviously he is not able to free himself from his dependence of the French political establishemnt, which does difficult his relations with the private Daimler, who in turn is influenced by the German Politics.To cope with this explossive mixture, additionally weighted down by the Shareholder pact, only a fiercely independent ultrastrong personality can succeed, which he is not.

So, the only way I can see how a real restructuring can happen is Gallois gone, a suitable "powerul personality" chosen, give him full powers and let him act. STREIFF tried to get such powers and was immediately eliminated.
Could be that a real shock as I suggested will convince the players to accept such today. Of course, I do not know if STREIFF would have achieved success, but I repeat: this seems the only way to proceed, independently from what kind the restructuring itself would be.

And to continue to visit "Potemkin's villages" as Mr. John Leahy is inviting will only make the situation progressively worse until reaching a point of bo return

He hit's the nail on the head. What the problem? It's the same nail that was hit 6m ago, and 6m from now.

There is no hope.

MM
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
jacobin777
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:59 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 41):
Nobody doubt that he has the needed political skills to ran a French state company as SNCF and combine sound administration with a "popular touch". But there is the problem. Airbus is not a state monopoly as SNCF, but a commercial company with a extremely powerful competition, with financial and pricing problems unknown by a state monopoly,.

...I agree, however even though Gallois hasn't been in this kind of situation before, I think his knowledge and experience should definitely give him an edge when it comes time to making critical decisions. Right now, he does seem to be taking the proper steps in terms Power8....in fact....

" June 16 (Bloomberg) -- Airbus SAS will reach a goal of cutting costs by 300 million euros ($401 million) in 2007 under the so-called Power8 plan after its first loss last year because of A380 delays, Chief Executive Officer Louis Gallois said.

''We're completely on track for the savings of Power8 in 2007,'' Gallois said yesterday at a briefing for journalists before the Paris Air Show, which starts June 18. "

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...=conews&tkr=BA:US&sid=aczPCOArs0AI

...yes the hard part with the layoffs, etc. will be coming soon..but at least they are in the right direction.. yes 

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 41):

Further, obviously he is not able to free himself from his dependence of the French political establishemnt, which does difficult his relations with the private Daimler, who in turn is influenced by the German Politics.To cope with this explossive mixture, additionally weighted down by the Shareholder pact, only a fiercely independent ultrastrong personality can succeed, which he is not.

....it's a matter of will power, and I think Gallois has shown he's capable of it (thus I disagree with you about the "independent ultra-strong personality").....I don't think he's going to "pander" to the various govts....he and his team have an agenda, I think they will execute quite a bit of it......just because he came from the "establishment" doesn't mean he's weak.. no 

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 41):

So, the only way I can see how a real restructuring can happen is Gallois gone, a suitable "powerul personality" chosen, give him full powers and let him act. STREIFF tried to get such powers and was immediately eliminated.
Could be that a real shock as I suggested will convince the players to accept such today. Of course, I do not know if STREIFF would have achieved success, but I repeat: this seems the only way to proceed, independently from what kind the restructuring itself would be.

..I liked Streiff, I even liked Gustav Humbert..but I think Gallois will do a good job...again, as the article stated, they are
on track for Power8-2007.....so lets see what happens.. checkmark 
"Up the Irons!"
 
AirSpare
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RE: Gallois To McNerney - Don't Talk About A350

Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:09 am

PARIS — Airbus Chief Louis Gallois said Friday he will resist pressure from his largest customer to revamp yet again plans for the company's crucial and already much revised new plane, the A350.

"We are not (going) to change the design of this airplane a new time," Gallois said. "We know what airplane we want to build and we will build it."

This has been their past strategy, worked out really well for them-NOT.

He said he will set the record straight publicly at the Airbus news conference at Le Bourget Tuesday.

This will be a most interesting airshow, for all av fans! I hope they book a few hundered orders and push B into the Y3 game, not 787 stretches.
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