flytuitravel
Posts: 489
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Emirates And Its Fleet

Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:42 pm

Hi there,

Just another one of my questions...
How come Emirates, and also other carriers like Etihad and Qatar, use widebodies on their shorter routes like AUH/DXB/DOH - BEY/JED/RUH/AMM/BAH/MCT/SAH/THR? I would have thought these were the more thinner routes and generally carry lower passengers, but it seems they all use A330s on their thinner routes... Do they depend on cargo or could any airline do things like this?


FLYTUITRAVEL.
 
migair54
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:56 pm

not sure but cargo, very cheap fuel prize, and business and first class passenger must be the answer,

not everybody do that Qatar operates A320 in some of these routes.

IMO more frequencies with smaller planes would be a better option, but they like big planes,

Emirates has nearly 50 A380 and they are talking about 100 787 or 350 so maybe you will see them flying routes like JED, BAH or even AUH from DXB  Cool , what are they going to do with them???
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6518
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:05 pm

Quoting FlyTUITravel (Thread starter):
I would have thought these were the more thinner routes and generally carry lower passengers, but it seems they all use A330s on their thinner routes... Do they depend on cargo or could any airline do things like this?

Traffic rights and cargo are important reasons.

Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 1):
very cheap fuel prize

Just because there's a lot of oil in the Middle East it doesn't mean that airlines such as EK enjoy low fuel prices.

Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 1):
IMO more frequencies with smaller planes would be a better option, but they like big planes,

Emirates prefers adding frequencies with widebody equipment and you can be sure they know what they're doing. Anyone with doubts should check their profits.

Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 1):
what are they going to do with them???

Flying...


Here's an interesting article which can answer some questions (fuel costs, strategy, network etc):
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/busin...chive/2005/10/01/8359251/index.htm


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
Impacto
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:31 pm

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:06 pm

One reason might be because all of EK's flights are International and there might be a possibility of huge load factor connecting through Dubai. The UAE might also be too small for domestic flights, making it quite unnecessary to acquire narrow-bodied aircrafts. QR though operates the A319LR and some A320s.

There are many other airlines that fly short hops with wide-bodies e.g CX, SQ, TG etc.
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6518
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:07 pm

Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 1):
even AUH from DXB

The distance is only 71,9 miles.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting FlyTUITravel (Thread starter):
How come Emirates,

They don´t have any narrow bodies  Smile

As for the others: These planes are full most of the times and aloso have a lot of space for cargo. Shifting cargo in these areas is very important.
 
Emirates029
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:13 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:49 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 4):
The distance is only 71,9 miles.

There used to be flights between AUH and DXB before, not any more though..
 
migair54
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:04 pm

i know that emirates is doing very well, and they are very aggressive and successful, they know what they are doing of course, but not only emirates, IMO all the country is an example of management and huge infrastructures.

i know they have cheap fuel prizes. this is only part of their success, they have a wonderful product, new planes, very good service, non-stop innovation............... one of the best and improving.

flying i know flying, understood.


about AUH it was a joke.  banghead  sorry about that.
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6518
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting Emirates029 (Reply 6):

There used to be flights between AUH and DXB before, not any more though..

Yes, but these flights continued to or originated at another destination. They have never flown just DXB-AUH-DXB.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
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zeke
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RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 1):
very cheap fuel prize,

Jet fuel in the middle east is fairly expensive in terms of the world market, generally the jet fuel that is used in the middle east comes form Singapore.

The reason why I think they use wide bodies is they have gaps in their schedule, and the margin cost of operating them is small, and I guess this is another reason why they are looking at buying a fleet of ATR turboprops.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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Zkpilot
Posts: 3750
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RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:22 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 9):
Jet fuel in the middle east is fairly expensive in terms of the world market, generally the jet fuel that is used in the middle east comes form Singapore.

Yeah coz the quality of the oil in the Middle East is actually crap compared to many other parts of the world... they just have a lot of it... high sulphur contents etc...
I wouldn't go so far to say that fuel prices are "fairly expensive"...more average... there are less fuel taxes etc there to balance out other factors which add to the price.
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
SkyyMaster
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:27 am

IIRC, I read recently where Etihad was looking at getting some 320's for gulf region flights. I'll say it for the 1,473rd time, EK is going to wake up one day and realize they have an enormously excessive amount of capacity on their hands and not enough pax to fill it. Flame me, go ahead, but it's going to happen sooner or later.
 
flyingKangaroo
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:29 pm

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 9):

The reason why I think they use wide bodies is they have gaps in their schedule, and the margin cost of operating them is small, and I guess this is another reason why they are looking at buying a fleet of ATR turboprops.

Exactly. Since EK, EY, QR, SQ and CX (even though they're not in the Middle East, they still can be used for my example) exclusivly operate international flights, primarily to long haul destinations, their fleets call for aircraft that can transport large numbers of passangers and cargo long distances. Since the the majority of the airline's flights are long haul, the costs of operating these large aircraft short distances outweighs the cost of purchasing a fleet of smaller aircraft to be used exclusively on these short haul routes.

flyingKangaroo
QANTAS-- The Spirit of Australia
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19287
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:11 am

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 11):
IIRC, I read recently where Etihad was looking at getting some 320's for gulf region flights. I'll say it for the 1,473rd time, EK is going to wake up one day and realize they have an enormously excessive amount of capacity on their hands and not enough pax to fill it.

Gulf Air at one time also had nothing but widebodies and used them on short sectors. They added some A320s a few years ago for more efficient use on regional routes.
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6518
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:39 pm

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 11):
I'll say it for the 1,473rd time, EK is going to wake up one day and realize they have an enormously excessive amount of capacity on their hands and not enough pax to fill it. Flame me, go ahead, but it's going to happen sooner or later.

They have been very well able to fill their planes until now - so why should they have ordered any smaller aircraft?


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2003
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:45 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 14):
They have been very well able to fill their planes until now - so why should they have ordered any smaller aircraft?

To avoid what happened to Pan Am in the 70/80s. As soon as competition started flying the same routes, with greater frequency but smaller plane sizes, even Pan Am's most lucrative routes were kaput.

EK has never seen a large aircraft that they didn't order. (Jury still being out on the 748i). You can't just add capacity endlessly and expect that the market will always be there for the birds. Remember that EK has already committed to a huge build out even before the latest 10 frame additions.

EK seems to think that the law of gravity doesn't apply to then. But sooner or later fragmentation will kill their ability to maintain pricing control with large seat counts.
 
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mariner
Posts: 18400
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:49 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
As soon as competition started flying the same routes, with greater frequency but smaller plane sizes, even Pan Am's most lucrative routes were kaput.

I can promise you that on the Pacific routes, at least from Oz/NZ, that wasn't the problem with Pan Am.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2003
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:51 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
I can promise you that on the Pacific routes, at least from Oz/NZ, that wasn't the problem with Pan Am.

My reference on that statement is from "Skygods"
 
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mariner
Posts: 18400
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RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:57 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 17):
My reference on that statement is from "Skygods"

I can only reiterate my comment about Oz/NZ/Pacific. No one was flying anything smaller - American and Continental tried the DC-10's at some point, but both went away.

I can't remember what NWA used, but they were only there briefly as well.

And I think that for the longest time, Qantas only had 747's?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2003
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):

I am willing to grant that the Oz routes might be different, if for no other reason then geographical challenges. However, the point still stands that carriers came in and flooded Pan Am routes, and made it impossible to simultaneously fill the seats, and keep a decent margin on them.
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6518
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:02 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
To avoid what happened to Pan Am in the 70/80s. As soon as competition started flying the same routes, with greater frequency but smaller plane sizes, even Pan Am's most lucrative routes were kaput.

EK has always been in direct competition with European and Asian carriers and a few years ago QR and EY entered the market - but EK has expanded further and increased profits. PA's structure and network were different.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
EK has never seen a large aircraft that they didn't order. (Jury still being out on the 748i).

What do you mean with "large aircraft"? Widebodies?

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
You can't just add capacity endlessly and expect that the market will always be there for the birds.

I don't think they are naive and don't realize the risks. But you can bet they have clauses in the contracts which other carriers don't...

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
EK seems to think that the law of gravity doesn't apply to then.

Time to hire a "real" MBA?  Wink

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
But sooner or later fragmentation will kill their ability to maintain pricing control with large seat counts.

EK will continue add secondary gateways to its network and offer even more connections throughout the world. In Germany alone, STR, CGN, TXL/SXF or NUE could be new destinations - which can't expect so many other long haul airlines anytime soon.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
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mariner
Posts: 18400
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Emirates And Its Fleet

Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:33 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 19):
However, the point still stands that carriers came in and flooded Pan Am routes, and made it impossible to simultaneously fill the seats, and keep a decent margin on them.

That may be true, at least in part. But I think it ignores many of the other things that were happening at that time, and I don't think you can dump it on the big planes. Were they not flying A300's or A310's by the end?

Yet Qantas was profitable with all all 747 fleet. I never flew on anything other than a 747 with profitable Singapore.

While Mr. Gandt may have been there, I would not call his view of things entirely objective. I remember being told - with some force - by a Pan Am Captain why Qantas must fail and Pan Am can only succeed.

I would rather say that Pan Am was a woefully mis-managed company.

mariner
aeternum nauta

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