airbuske
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Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:16 am

Hi everyone, this is going to be my first post here on A.net so I ask all of you to please be lenient on me  Smile.

If I'm not mistaken, the A350 XWB family can serve as a potential replacement for the entire 777 and 787 family with the exception of the 788 since it seats 238 pax while the smallest A350 is the A358 which seats 270 pax (both a/c in three class configuration)

Do you all reckon Airbus will possibly eliminate a couple more frames from the A359 to create the A357 carrying about 240 pax in a three class config?

Of course, all this is assuming that the operating economics for the would be A357 would still be favorable. This would allow the A350 family to also serve as a replacement for not only the 787-8 but also the 757-300 (243 pax) & 767-400ER (245 pax) with added advantages of fleet commonality, greater range and ofcourse.. added passenger comfort! ( I mean its Airbus  Smile )
 
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zeke
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting Airbuske (Thread starter):
Do you all reckon Airbus will possibly eliminate a couple more frames from the A359 to create the A357 carrying about 240 pax in a three class config?

Nope...

I think the next airframe will be a 300/310/321/757 replacement....
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
OceansWorld
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
I think the next airframe will be a 300/310/321/757 replacement....

What do you think ? Would it be part of an A320NG family, or a short fuselage widebody aircraft able to carry about 220 pax in two classes ?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting Airbuske (Thread starter):
Do you all reckon Airbus will possibly eliminate a couple more frames from the A359 to create the A357 carrying about 240 pax in a three class config?

Highly unlikely, in that such a shrink would probably not fare well against the 787-8. While it is bigger then the 787-8, the A350-800 is not enormously so and, as such, should be able to hold it's own as an A330-200 replacement.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:30 am

God no, the A358 is already pushing the bounds of economic uselessness. The MOST an A357 could hope for is to match the 737-600 for % of total sales. If you don't have that handy try thinking of trying very hard to stay an integer % instead of a decimal on.
 
legoguy
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting Airbuske (Thread starter):
Do you all reckon Airbus will possibly eliminate a couple more frames from the A359 to create the A357 carrying about 240 pax in a three class config?

I believe the wings are more suited to the larger models of the A350XWB series. To use the wings on anything smaller than the A358 may not produce great results. Could someone back me on on this?

Welcome to a.net and nice first post!
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
bigjku
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:32 am

The 787-8 market is pretty much done or being done before the current A350 models get out the gate. It would serve no purpose.

Also the A350 will not be replacing the 787. They will be competing.
 
airbuske
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
God no, the A358 is already pushing the bounds of economic uselessness.

Well the airlines certainly seem to think differently. Yesterday at Le Bourget, 20 A358's for QR and 22 for US. Yes the A359 has the largest share in % ordered, but A358 has a decent chunk as well!

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 5):
I believe the wings are more suited to the larger models of the A350XWB series. To use the wings on anything smaller than the A358 may not produce great results.

That's a good point, the A350 family was designed with common wing geometry and its highly unlikely that this wing model could be transfered to an a/c that small (in relative terms).

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 6):
The 787-8 market is pretty much done or being done before the current A350 models get out the gate.

Could you please elaborate?

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 6):
Also the A350 will not be replacing the 787. They will be competing.

Sorry about that, silly mistake that I overlooked.

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 5):
Welcome to a.net and nice first post!

Thanks for the warm welcome, I really appreciate it  Smile
 
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zeke
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:18 am

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 2):
What do you think ? Would it be part of an A320NG family, or a short fuselage widebody aircraft able to carry about 220 pax in two classes ?

I think the answer to that question lies with the engine manufacturers, nothing really about to give a NB the thrust with the fuel economy at the moment, a GEnx 2B with 55k thrust, ....ideally it would be A310/753 sized with about 3500 nm range, and 20,000 kg lighter than the 787-300 (NB the A300 is already about 10,000 kg lighter than the 783), aimed primarily at European charter or regional Asian carriers.

It would basically attack the 737-900ER from above, and 787-300/800 from below, just my opinion.....
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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solnabo
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:25 am

What about 787-3, what´s the pax/range in that model, and ANA (so far) the only one to order it?

Micke//  Confused
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WAH64D
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:29 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
God no, the A358 is already pushing the bounds of economic uselessness.

42 orders in the last few days would suggest otherwise.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
zvezda
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting Airbuske (Thread starter):
Do you all reckon Airbus will possibly eliminate a couple more frames from the A359 to create the A357 carrying about 240 pax in a three class config?

No, not unless some government-owned airline with a political motive placed an order for 50 or so. There is no commercial reason to build such an aircraft for the reasons already stated above.
 
bigjku
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:43 am

Quoting Airbuske (Reply 7):

Could you please elaborate?

Sure, the basic reason behind this logic is that a lot of airlines that wanted to replace their 767's and even some of the older A330's have gone ahead and bought 787-8 models already. A 700 model A350 would be after all the ones already on the list so it would not EIS until 2016. At that point pretty much every 767 operator will need to have started replacing those planes.

The replacement cycle for the 787-8 would not really come around until 2020 or 2025 or so. At that point an A350-700 would be non-competitive with whatever replaced the 787.

This is why Airbus, as the EIS for the A350 slipped further and further back, decided to go after the 777 market instead. It will be in its replacement cycle when the A350 goes into service. The 767 will already be on the way out.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:22 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 10):
42 orders in the last few days would suggest otherwise.

Actually it doesn't.... The 737-600 sold remarkably similar numbers to start with then nada. Well ok, its sold 57 frames so the 737-600 is still ahead.

And if you care to read what I wrote its "STARTING" to push that limit. Its not at it (maybe), but removing any more length from the A350 does NOT produce a useful reduction in operating costs. I would expect the A359 will in the real world to have remarkably identical operating costs to the A358, thus making the A358 not worth buying for 95+% of the customers

History is littered with examples of a "shrink to far".
 
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Stitch
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 9):
What about 787-3, what´s the pax/range in that model, and ANA (so far) the only one to order it?

NH and JL both have ordered the type. It's optimized for sub-1500nm missions so it pretty much won't see service outside of Japan and perhaps China and India.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:09 am

Quoting Airbuske (Thread starter):

Do you all reckon Airbus will possibly eliminate a couple more frames from the A359 to create the A357 carrying about 240 pax in a three class config?

Funny you should ask this question, I was thinking of exactly the same thing last night.

I would be surprised if an A357 were to be produced. It might have been offered to airlines initially when the XWB was launched, but the cost to operate an A358 were not likely to have been that much more.

I would guess that both Boeing and Airbus will try to replace the 739/739ER, 752/753, 762, A300/A310, A321 with a member (or possibly two) of the new narrowbodies. There is definately a sizeable market for a 220+ seat narrowbody with the capibilities of the 757 and the ability to carry containeriesd cargo/baggage.

I think the next gen of narrowbody could have many members, based around two seperate platforms, with a lot of commainility in the cabin, and the flightdeck. A CFRP fuselage is likely, and a certain amount of wing/undercarriage technology will be common also.

Welcome to a.net, BTW

Brian.
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AvObserver
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:09 am

I think improved versions of the existing A330-200 might better serve this end of the market. Reengining it with the GEnx or Trent new-gen 787 powerplants wouldn't get it quite performance-competitive but considering the large installed customer base, if the price was low enough, it might keep selling for a long time. Shrinking the XWB further probably makes less sense, I suspect it would likely end up heavier, composites or no.
 
astuteman
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:17 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
I think the next airframe will be a 300/310/321/757 replacement....

 checkmark 
Question is, will it be a narrowbody, or a new widebody based on the -XWB cross-section?

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
God no, the A358 is already pushing the bounds of economic uselessness

Just like the 787-9, presumably, then, with which the A350XWB-800 is economically competitive........... Wink

FWIW, a shorter -XWB body is entirely feasible, but not as a member of the A350 family.
To do so would need:-
smaller engines (55k-60k)
smaller, and lighter wing (less than 56m span IMO)
Lighter landing gear

Thus lighter OEW
And lower MTOW.

Regards
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:42 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 17):
Just like the 787-9, presumably, then, with which the A350XWB-800 is economically competitive

Astuteman, I think Airbus knows that the A358 can't keep up with the 789 on any mission the 789 is capable of doing. They have a hard enough time keeping up with the 788 on a PER SEAT BASIS using their numbers. Even worse I think the majority of the 767 and A330 market would best be replaced by the 788, though given the improvements a A358 would still be better than the old frames on most missions.

Right now the A350 is trying to carve out a niche replacing 777 and A340NG, with a big side dish of 747 and A380 market share. The 787 at this time can't perform many of the missions that the 777LR family can, much less the other frames given the low(er) MTOW. However the A358 sits square in the middle of where the 787 is best, and brings nothing to the table but parts that are 2 sizes too big, and yet has a limited MTOW that keeps it from beating down on the 787 with shear hauling capacity. For this reason I think any sane A350 operator will take a long long look at the A358 before ordering such a subfleet.

I also think the 787-10 with a 787-9 MTOW would own the skys at the transatlantic market and other 5K nm routes. Longer routes could still be done economically without cargo if need be. More passengers than a A346 and what... 40%? less fuel burn and MX costs also about the same 40% off? Sure makes Europe from BFE USA seem a whole lot more profitable than ever before doesn't it? Course Airbus can toss cargo on the routes but for higher costs so the A350 certainly has legs in this category also.
 
astuteman
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:47 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 18):
I think Airbus knows that the A358 can't keep up with the 789 on any mission the 789 is capable of doing

I don't think Airbus think anything of the sort.
I don't think anything of the sort.

You obviously do.

Don't for one second believe the A358XWB is NOT economically competitive with the 789.

Regards
 
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zeke
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:54 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 18):
Right now the A350 is trying to carve out a niche replacing 777 and A340NG, with a big side dish of 747 and A380 market share. The 787 at this time can't perform many of the missions that the 777LR family can, much less the other frames given the low(er) MTOW. However the A358 sits square in the middle of where the 787 is best, and brings nothing to the table but parts that are 2 sizes too big, and yet has a limited MTOW that keeps it from beating down on the 787 with shear hauling capacity. For this reason I think any sane A350 operator will take a long long look at the A358 before ordering such a subfleet.

Show us your numbers and source or shut up, i.e. show us your payload numbers for all the 787 and 350 types.... everything I have seen from manufacturers says yours speaking from the opposite end from the horses head ....

"777LR family", what family ?

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 18):

I also think the 787-10 with a 787-9 MTOW would own the skys at the transatlantic market and other 5K nm routes. Longer routes could still be done economically without cargo if need be. More passengers than a A346 and what... 40%? less fuel burn and MX costs also about the same 40% off? Sure makes Europe from BFE USA seem a whole lot more profitable than ever before doesn't it? Course Airbus can toss cargo on the routes but for higher costs so the A350 certainly has legs in this category also.

More passengers than a 346, your kidding....that means more passengers than a 773ER.... absolute rubbish...it is scratching to have more passengers than a 772ER !!!!
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
chiad
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:10 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 18):
Astuteman, I think Airbus knows that the A358 can't keep up with the 789 on any mission the 789 is capable of doing. They have a hard enough time keeping up with the 788 on a PER SEAT BASIS using their numbers. Even worse I think the majority of the 767 and A330 market would best be replaced by the 788, though given the improvements a A358 would still be better than the old frames on most missions.

Right now the A350 is trying to carve out a niche replacing 777 and A340NG, with a big side dish of 747 and A380 market share. The 787 at this time can't perform many of the missions that the 777LR family can, much less the other frames given the low(er) MTOW. However the A358 sits square in the middle of where the 787 is best, and brings nothing to the table but parts that are 2 sizes too big, and yet has a limited MTOW that keeps it from beating down on the 787 with shear hauling capacity. For this reason I think any sane A350 operator will take a long long look at the A358 before ordering such a subfleet.

I also think the 787-10 with a 787-9 MTOW would own the skys at the transatlantic market and other 5K nm routes. Longer routes could still be done economically without cargo if need be. More passengers than a A346 and what... 40%? less fuel burn and MX costs also about the same 40% off? Sure makes Europe from BFE USA seem a whole lot more profitable than ever before doesn't it? Course Airbus can toss cargo on the routes but for higher costs so the A350 certainly has legs in this category also.

WOW. I cannot remember from any moment in my life that I have disagreed with every sentence of someones opinion.
 Wow!
Man ... how the heck do you manage to come out with something like this?
 
zvezda
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:18 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 17):
smaller, and lighter wing (less than 56m span IMO)

A wingspan of 52 meters would allow it to use ICAO code E gates.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 18):
I think Airbus knows that the A358 can't keep up with the 789 on any mission the 789 is capable of doing.

That is very dubious. I expect the A350-800 and 787-9 to be roughly competitive. Many sales will be determined by price.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 18):
I also think the 787-10 with a 787-9 MTOW would own the skys at the transatlantic market and other 5K nm routes. Longer routes could still be done economically without cargo if need be. More passengers than a A346 and what...

Perhaps you meant A340-500? The 787-10 will be about 7% smaller than the A340-600. Cabin floor areas in sq meters:

A340-500: 275.7
777-200: 279.0
787-10: 291.0
A340-600: 314.2
787-11X: 324.6
777-300ER: 330.4
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:26 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 22):
That is very dubious. I expect the A350-800 and 787-9 to be roughly competitive. Many sales will be determined by price.

Mmm, I'm not so optimistic based on what I have seen Airbus present thus far. If during development the numbers Airbus is claiming start trending the other way, Its possible I will agree with you. 5+ years is a hell of along time.... To me the recent reductions in range, apparent comparison to old Boeing MX numbers and needing to compare on a "per seat basis" with a smaller plane don't leave me with faith. The A380 also leaves me without faith. If we were talking about a A330 with new engines, or a A322... I'd have faith...

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 22):
Perhaps you meant A340-500? The 787-10 will be about 7% smaller than the A340-600. Cabin floor areas in sq meters:

Mmm, true, I was thinking too much of 9Y vs the old Airbus crosssection. Sorry bout that.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:15 pm

Well the A350 just landed another shedload of orders at Paris today, though the model break-down is not yet known. As of the last batch, the A358 had 50, the A359 75, and the A3510 20, with 62 "undecided" so it looks like airlines seem to like the A358 so far...

[Edited 2007-06-20 14:16:55]
 
EI321
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:27 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
God no, the A358 is already pushing the bounds of economic uselessness.

Thats a load of complete BS. I always reserve waving the BS flag for for particularly ridiculous posts, and this one has all the boxes ticked, so:  white 

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
The MOST an A357 could hope for is to match the 737-600 for % of total sales.

This is untrue. The 736 has to compete with at least three other aircraft. An A357 would only compete with one.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 18):
I think Airbus knows that the A358 can't keep up with the 789 on any mission the 789 is capable of doing.

Wow, two waves of the BS flag in such a short period!  white  One more and youve got a hatrick!
 
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solnabo
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:11 pm

IMO I don´t think Airbus will build A357, why should they?

They don´t wanna follow Boeing and 783 huge disaster in sales.

Micke//  twocents 
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
Danny
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:13 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 22):
Cabin floor areas in sq meters:

A340-500: 275.7
777-200: 279.0
787-10: 291.0
A340-600: 314.2
787-11X: 324.6
777-300ER: 330.4

Source?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:19 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 27):
Source?

Google is your friend, sir. The data points for the length and width of the main cabins, as well as often the actual data itself, is available for the A340, 777, and 787 family if you are willing to invest the time to find it.

As for the two "hypothetical" 787 models, it's easy enough to just take the known data for the 787-9 and add one or two 6m stretches since it is very likely Boeing will stretch the 787-10 6m from the 787-9 and the 787-11 6m from the 787-10 because that is how they stretched the 787-9 from the 787-8 and that would be the easiest way for Boeing to do so with the barrel sections in the existing autoclaves.
 
airbuske
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:29 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 22):
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 17):
smaller, and lighter wing (less than 56m span IMO)

A wingspan of 52 meters would allow it to use ICAO code E gates.

Thanks for answering my question before even asking  Smile.

Has Airbus released the projected OEW and MTOW for the A350 family or is it still too soon?
 
parapente
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting Stitch NH and JL both have ordered the type. It's optimized for sub-1500nm missions so it pretty much won't see service outside of Japan and perhaps China and India.

This aircraft is a strange one IMHO. If the above is true (which it is I think) then why havn't they ordered it? Indeed no one ever mentions it at all - even Boeing. Is it really worth the trouble?
 
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zeke
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:42 pm

Quoting Airbuske (Reply 29):
Has Airbus released the projected OEW and MTOW for the A350 family or is it still too soon?

Those numbers and other performance specs are built into current contracts, it is not a public figure as yet.

I should add, the OEW is not a contractual number as the manufactures have little control on how an airline configures or paints an aircraft, the contract number will be the Manufacturers Empty Weight or Manufacturers Weight Empty (MEW/MWE), which is essentially an empty "green" aircraft.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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Stitch
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting Parapente (Reply 30):
This aircraft is a strange one IMHO. If the above is true (which it is I think) then why havn't they ordered it? Indeed no one ever mentions it at all - even Boeing. Is it really worth the trouble?

I expect China and India would be interested in it only for domestic operations. While many like to propose the A388 just because you can stuff 800+ people in it, the 787-3 (with 300+) would far more easily integrate into most non-international gateway airports compared to the A388 and slots are unlikely to be a constraining issue within these countries.
 
EI321
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:01 am

I have not posted my feelings on the viability of the A350-700, so here they are:

In a word, no, it is not worth doing without major (and expensive) changes, particularly the wings.

The fuselage is not a Major issue, IMO. But if there was ever to be an A350-700 the wings would need serious changes. There is an off chance that the wings could be shortened, but the aircraft would need either derated engines or a smaller variant.

Above all, I dont believe there is huge demand for an aircraft of this size, and the 788 market will get smaller when the 789 enters service, as many of the aircraft that the 788 will replace are 762's and older A300s. I think Airbus were right to aim for the larger end of the market.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 23):
If we were talking about a A330 with new engines, or a A322... I'd have faith...

Seriously, what planet are you living on? You must know damn well that Airbus offered this to the airlines, and none of them were happy to choose this aircraft over the 787.

I suggest that you watch less CNN, ABC, NBC or whatever American 'news' channel takes your fancy and switch to the BBC. You might see a less one sided view of the world, a more balanced reporting, and a channel where the news reporters actually spend more time reporting the news than talking about the news they might report at some stage in the next hour.

Just becasue a product/service is not made in the great ole' USA does not mean it is bad, flogged for half nothing or unable to compete with the American products. A quick look to the success of the Japaneese motor industry in the USA will tell you that.

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
columba
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
God no, the A358 is already pushing the bounds of economic uselessness.

Have you ever made a positive statement when it comes to Airbus, I don' think I have ever seen one.........
The A358 will likely the choice of many airlines when it comes to replace the A332 and therefore it is far away from economic uselessness.

[Edited 2007-06-20 22:04:12]
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
bigjku
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RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 33):
Above all, I dont believe there is huge demand for an aircraft of this size, and the 788 market will get smaller when the 789 enters service, as many of the aircraft that the 788 will replace are 762's and older A300s. I think Airbus were right to aim for the larger end of the market.

I think Airbus was right to aim for that sector of the market given a 2013 or later EIS. That 788 market will be well on its way to be replaced by then and by the time they got around to doing the A350 correct it was obvious that market sector was pretty much lost to them. No one that ordered 787 was going to switch to the A350 for the same sized plane.

The value of the 788, beyond just the plane itself, is that it will get the 787 in on the market that needed to be replaced right now. From there if Boeing decides to build the 787-10 and/or the 787-11 they will have a large advantage in selling against the A350 with the vast majority of 787 operators. Effectivly a 787-10/11 would be the same as the A350-900 and 1000 models so what it would really come down to is if these operators want to mess with a second airplane type when one that is common with their current fleet is also out there.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6341
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 22):
A wingspan of 52 meters would allow it to use ICAO code E gates.

Did I say 56m?

My intention was a span of 52m indeed.
This would allow Cat D gate usage, of course......  Smile
(Cat E is 52m - 65m)
You got where I was coming from, though.  Smile
Thanks.

Regards
 
airbuske
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:36 am

RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 31):
Those numbers and other performance specs are built into current contracts, it is not a public figure as yet.


Now that's a bummer! But why all the secrecy?
I was hoping to use those figures to extrapolate what the weights of the A357 would possibly be and then compare it to that of the 783. But I guess with all the issues of the wings and engines, there isn't really a point in that.
Thanks everyone for highlighting all these points, I feel like I've learned a lot here on A.net ( as always) .

I still feel there is a genuine need for an a/c that is dedicated to serve the 210-250 pax market with ranges of 8000nm+. There are so many routes from small/medium sized cities to major cities that cant bring in 250+ pax on a daily basis, especially flights between a developing nation and a developed nation.
 
airbuske
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:36 am

RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:14 am

And I know this is way off topic, but why are most cruise speeds for large commerical a/c around 0.85 Mach? I'm guessing its the most economical speed to fly at given current technologies and I guess you also have to factor in noise restrictions. But are airframe manufacturers like Airbus and Boeing as well as the engine manufacturers even trying to up it? And if so, whats the major difficulty they are facing?

I know gulfstream had some plan for a sonic cruiser but I haven't heard much about it lately!!
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2637
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 35):
Have you ever made a positive statement when it comes to Airbus, I don' think I have ever seen one.........

yes I have

Quoting Columba (Reply 35):
The A358 will likely the choice of many airlines when it comes to replace the A332 and therefore it is far away from economic uselessness

and I'm glad you fail at reading comprehension. As thats NOT what I said. But keep thinking that.
 
airbuske
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:36 am

RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 37):
(Cat E is 52m - 65m)

How strict are they with the rules? Say for example a wingspan of 52.1m?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23079
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting Airbuske (Reply 39):
And I know this is way off topic, but why are most cruise speeds for large commerical a/c around 0.85 Mach? I'm guessing its the most economical speed to fly at given current technologies and I guess you also have to factor in noise restrictions.

Correct.

Quote:
But are airframe manufacturers like Airbus and Boeing as well as the engine manufacturers even trying to up it? And if so, whats the major difficulty they are facing?

Boeing planned for the Sonic Cruiser to have a Mach 0.95 or so cruising speed which would have shaved a few hours off long-haul missions.

However, before the plane was really defined the 9/11/01 attacks happened and cratered the domestic US airline market, which was expected to be big buyers (AA's CEO said he wanted the first three year's production). Then SARS cratered the Asian market, which also was expected to be big (due to time savings for trans-Pacific and Asia-EU services). Then fuel prices started rising (the SC would have carried a 764ER's load but burned a 772ER's fuel) and that truly killed any plans to go faster.

So Boeing took the technology they were using for the Sonic Cruiser and created the 7E7 study which begat the 787.
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2637
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:01 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
(the SC would have carried a 764ER's load but burned a 772ER's fu

according to the quotes I've seen, this is not true. While the fuel burn per HOUR was higher than a 767, the overall fuel burn for the trip was stated to be on par with a 767 given the shorter flight time.

Its also interesting to see how much the 787 deviates from the old planes in this class. .855M cruise with massively lower fuel burn than the old plane had a .81M/.82M depending on what you compare it to.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23079
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Will Airbus Introduce A350-700?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:03 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 43):
according to the quotes I've seen, this is not true. While the fuel burn per HOUR was higher than a 767, the overall fuel burn for the trip was stated to be on par with a 767 given the shorter flight time.

Well these were the spitball data we were tossing around in the early days of the program, so no doubt the plane's specs evolved a bit better after I left.  Smile

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