clrd4t8koff
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Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:37 am

All the threads i'm reading are orders for Airbus. I think I came across one thread that said Boeing had something like 110 orders, while Airbus was up to 359? Is this typical or were there supposed to be more 787, 748I, 777F orders? Looks like the only thing sold so far was a fairly large order for the 739ER and some 787's? Is this an upset for Boeing?
 
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PA110
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting Clrd4t8koff (Thread starter):
Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

I didn't realize that the Paris Air Show had been reclassified from an aviation exposition to a sales contest.  Yeah sure
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
rigo
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 1):
I didn't realize that the Paris Air Show had been reclassified from an aviation exposition to a sales contest.

 checkmark 

Now as has been discussed in another thread, Airbus usually keeps their orders quiet and announce them massively during airshows, while Boeing announce theirs as they are signed. So if you are asking whether Airbus will announce more orders than Boeing during the show, the answer is probably yes.
 
Reggaebird
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting Clrd4t8koff (Thread starter):
Is this an upset for Boeing?

Unless you're new to the world of us aviation enthusiasts, you should know that Airbus always wins airshow order races. I dare not say why because I will get banned for starting an Airbus vs. Boeing battle so suffice it to say that the results you sited are not unusual. At the end of the year, it'll be more interesting to see if slow-and-steady Boeing will lose its two year (  devil  ).....I mean one year.....sales title to quick-spurts Airbus
 
airtran737
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 3):
Unless you're new to the world of us aviation enthusiasts, you should know that Airbus always wins airshow order races. I dare not say why because I will get banned for starting an Airbus vs. Boeing battle so suffice it to say that the results you sited are not unusual. At the end of the year, it'll be more interesting to see if slow-and-steady Boeing will lose its two year ( ).....I mean one year.....sales title to quick-spurts Airbus

Spot on. Airbus admits to holding orders for the show, where as Boeing announces orders when the customers tell them to do so.
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787EWR
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting Clrd4t8koff (Thread starter):
All the threads i'm reading are orders for Airbus. I think I came across one thread that said Boeing had something like 110 orders, while Airbus was up to 359? Is this typical or were there supposed to be more 787, 748I, 777F orders? Looks like the only thing sold so far was a fairly large order for the 739ER and some 787's? Is this an upset for Boeing?

I think it is critical for Airbus to show some success in sales during this period. Their products are quality, but public image and perception have been suffering due to issues with the A380.

I also think some of the airlines who have placed these large orders knew what they were going to do quite some time ago.

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 3):
At the end of the year, it'll be more interesting to see if slow-and-steady Boeing will lose its two year ( ).....I mean one year.....sales title to quick-spurts Airbus

Agreed. Once the 787 is in the air and testing, sales should continue to grow. As for the 739, as the 757s continue to age, these birds will become more attractive. I haven't heard about too many A321 sales lately(Had to put the dig in).
 
burnsie28
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 5):
I haven't heard about too many A321 sales lately(Had to put the dig in).

With less range and week economics its not a wonder.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 6):
Quoting 787EWR (Reply 5):
I haven't heard about too many A321 sales lately(Had to put the dig in).

With less range and week economics its not a wonder

LOL Weak Economics? You mean the best trip costs per seat mile than any other narrowbody for the vast majority of missions? The A321 has more range than the 737-900 and more cargo capacity.

Look it up mate.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a320/a321/

[Edited 2007-06-20 23:48:10]
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
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zeke
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 1):

I didn't realize that the Paris Air Show had been reclassified from an aviation exposition to a sales contest.

Correct, it is not, both A & B are doing VERY well at the moment, despite what people on here may think.

I wish I had billions worth of orders in my book.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 7):
LOL Weak Economics? You mean the best trip costs per seat mile than any other narrowbody for the vast majority of missions? The A321 has more range than the 737-900 and more cargo capacity.

Maybe thinking 900ER to the 321-100, the 900ER is very similar to the 321-200.
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khobar
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 7):
Look it up mate.

737-900ER range - 5925km (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737family/pf/pf_900ERtech.html)
A321 range - 5550km. (http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a320/a321/performance.html)
 
EI321
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 6):
With less range and week economics its not a wonder.

What on earth are you blabbering about.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 4):
Boeing announces orders when the customers tell them to do so.

Customers dont tell them to announce UFO's, yet UFO's make up a very considerable chunk of the Boeing.com orders page week in week out.

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 5):
Their products are quality, but public image and perception have been suffering due to issues with the A380.

Spot on.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 9):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 7):
Look it up mate.

737-900ER range - 5925km (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737family/pf/pf_900ERtech.html)
A321 range - 5550km. (http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a320/a321/performance.html)

Read the post dude. I didnt say ER did i?  Wink
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
JTR
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 11):
Read the post dude. I didnt say ER did i?

I was under the impression (not that I can remember where I got it from) that Boeing discontinued selling the -900, and is just selling the -900ER. I don't see why you wouldn't compare the two most alike models.
 
columba
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:55 am

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 5):
I haven't heard about too many A321 sales lately(Had to put the dig in).

That is why because they were usually a part of A32x family orders. US and SU were the latest to place an A321 order.
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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting JTR (Reply 12):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 11):
Read the post dude. I didnt say ER did i?

I was under the impression (not that I can remember where I got it from) that Boeing discontinued selling the -900, and is just selling the -900ER. I don't see why you wouldn't compare the two most alike models.

The 737-900ER isnt in full service yet mate. Not wishing to be pedantic.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
khobar
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 11):
Read the post dude. I didnt say ER did i? Wink

You also didn't say A321-100 or A321-200 either. And?  Wink

Besides, Boeing doesn't offer anything but the ER now, according to Boeing.
 
EI321
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting JTR (Reply 12):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 11):
Read the post dude. I didnt say ER did i?

I was under the impression (not that I can remember where I got it from) that Boeing discontinued selling the -900, and is just selling the -900ER. I don't see why you wouldn't compare the two most alike models.

In all fairness, the -900ER is more comparable. But at best it has 250 miles extra range with winglets and actually less range without them according to data that I have seen, despite entering the market a full 14 Years later than the A321. Its also arguable that the A320 could match the performance with relative ease (Maybe the A321 Enhanced already will), although Im starting to make excuses here, arn't I!

[Edited 2007-06-21 00:07:09]
 
CP744
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 5):
Their products are quality, but public image and perception have been suffering due to issues with the A380.

Do you mean public image to the "public"... or public image to aviation enthusiasts?

And why I ask is, IMO the "public" could care less. They tend not to know what type of A/C their flying on, never mind any issues that may have happened during design, production, etc. Hell, I've seen customers that have no idea what airline their flying on..... I really believe that $$ is all that drives "most" passengers. They would fly on DC-3's if it was 10 bucks cheaper. Not that there is anything wrong with a DC-3, just used it to try an illustrate the point.

Cheers
 
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zeke
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 9):

737-900ER range - 5925km (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737family/pf/pf_900ERtech.html)
A321 range - 5550km. (http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a320/a321/performance.html)

Khobar,

They are very similar, I prepared the chart below some time back. The 321 is not one aircraft, its has had 20 variations in its life so far, 12 variations (range/payload/weights) in the A321-200 alone.

Majority of missions flown by the type will be of 5 hrs duration or less (less than 2500 nm), where the 321-200 would be able to lift about 5000 kg / 10,000 lb more payload than a 737-900ER with winglets.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a357/thezeke/range%20payload/f3a7d034.png
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scbriml
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 6):
With less range and week economics its not a wonder.

Just how did Airbus manage to sell over 650 of them before Paris? scratchchin 

Not to mention more sales to Aeroflot and US during Paris.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 1):
I didn't realize that the Paris Air Show had been reclassified from an aviation exposition to a sales contest

It's the SuperBowl of aviation sales. At the end they play We Are The Champions and the winners go to EuroDisney. smile 
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 18):

On that A.netter drawn-up table...isnt that 737-900ER and 737-900ER with winglets.....the SAME aircraft??  sarcastic 
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Stitch
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:54 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
The 737-900ER isnt in full service yet mate. Not wishing to be pedantic.

Might want to let Lion Air know they're flying around a phantom plane...  Wink

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q2/070427b_pr.html
 
sphealey
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:05 am

> It's the SuperBowl of aviation sales. At the end they play We Are The
> Champions and the winners go to EuroDisney.

Then the Americans claim that it isn't a "real" world championship because only the European teams play  Wink

sPh
 
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PA110
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:05 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 20):
At the end they play We Are The Champions and the winners go to EuroDisney.

Silly me! You mean to say there's no medal ceremony where the national anthems from every supplier nation are played simultaneously?  Silly
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:07 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
The 737-900ER isnt in full service yet mate. Not wishing to be pedantic.

Might want to let Lion Air know they're flying around a phantom plane...

Did they start already? Apologies - my bad. When did this happen? Must have missed it.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
CP744
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:20 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 25):
Did they start already? Apologies - my bad. When did this happen? Must have missed it.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2007/q2/070612b_pr.html

Don't think it's in service yet..... just took delivery on 12JUN07.... Although, may be in service.... it's been 8 days.
 
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zeke
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 21):
On that A.netter drawn-up table...isnt that 737-900ER and 737-900ER with winglets.....the SAME aircraft??

Nope have a look at the 737 ACAPS document, you will see the differences as exactly as per my diagram.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting CP744 (Reply 26):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 25):
Did they start already? Apologies - my bad. When did this happen? Must have missed it.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2007/q2/070612b_pr.html

Don't think it's in service yet..... just took delivery on 12JUN07.... Although, may be in service.... it's been 8 days.

Hehehehe got away with that then - knew it had been delivered but hadnt seen the press release about it starting revenue service.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:02 am

The 737-900ER and A321-200 are of course very similar planes. But the 321 is the slightly larger one.

It has more floor space, more load carrying capability.

Consequently it also has the more powerful engines, 30,000 - 33,000 lbs vs 24.200 - 27.300 lbs on the 739ER depending on models.

Consequently with a high (but equal) payload the 321 goes somewhat further, while lightly loaded the 739ER happens to go a little further.

It is really nothing to quarrel about. The 321 is just a little more plane than the 739ER. Just like the 752 is somewhat more plane than the 321. And the 777 is a hell of a lot more plane.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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flying_727
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:10 am

If I remember correctly, Airbus "won" Farnborough last year and Boeing still ended the year with more orders then airbus. With the delta order on the horizon, and a possible AA order by the end of the year, I think Boeing will take the year once again. And they don't need an airshow to show off.

Flying_727
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klkla
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:13 am

Quoting Clrd4t8koff (Thread starter):
Customers dont tell them to announce UFO's, yet UFO's make up a very considerable chunk of the Boeing.com orders page week in week out.

Your credibility suffers when you make comments like this.

A UFO is a "FIRM" order. It's not a MOU (which seems to make up a large percentage of Airbus' orders at each air show - with many of them never being firmed). As a public company in the U.S. Boeing HAS to report these sales even if the customer does not want to be identified. If Airbus had to provide such transparency in their financial reporting they wouldn't be able to do this horse & pony show every year.

But getting back to the original post, what really matters is FIRM ORDERS year to date. By that measure Boeing is far ahead of Airbus.
 
JTR
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):

The 737-900ER isnt in full service yet mate. Not wishing to be pedantic.

So then, how do you define endless debate between A380, 747-8i, 787 and A350XWB? After all, the 737-900ER has, you know, flown once or twice.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:56 am

Quoting CP744 (Reply 26):
Don't think it's in service yet..... just took delivery on 12JUN07.... Although, may be in service.... it's been 8 days.



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 28):
Hehehehe got away with that then - knew it had been delivered but hadnt seen the press release about it starting revenue service.

Not quite.  Wink

Their first 737-900 was delivered on April 27 in Boeing's "house livery". The June 12th delivery was the first in Lion Air's own livery.
 
tistpaa727
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:03 am

Didn't we keep hearing from Boeing leading up to the show there would be some surprises? Granted, ILFC and Lion Air were nice size orders but I kept expecting something to knock my socks off, so to speak. Airbus had plenty of those, firm or MOU, still impressive.

As some have mentioned on other threads, maybe Boeing is waiting for the roll out ceremony to wow everyone with 787 orders. You would think there would have to be one heck of an incentive being offered to accomplish this (not stating as fact, just thinking out loud).
Don't sweat the little things.
 
JRDC930
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:11 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
A & B are doing VERY well at the moment

You have to admit though 70 orders most not even new compared to 500+ cant but look slightly bad for boeing in the eyes of the general public. I know Boeings strategy for airshows and announcements, but its still a bit frustrating to see boeing getting squashed by airbus, not that i have anything against airbus.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
 
JRDC930
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:15 am

It would be nice it boeing showed off once and a while...  bored 
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:27 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 27):
Nope have a look at the 737 ACAPS document, you will see the differences as exactly as per my diagram.

Show me, please. There is nothing on Boeing's website tells me that its two separate airplanes. Winglets are now standard on every 737NG that is produced. Am I incorrect?

If there was a 739ER and 739ER with winglets as TWO separate airplanes, I would have known that.

Edit add: There are two planes, however: The standard 737-900 and the 737-900ER. AS does not operate any version of the ER.



[Edited 2007-06-21 03:42:23]
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Stitch
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:06 am

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 35):
You have to admit though 70 orders most not even new compared to 500+ cant but look slightly bad for boeing in the eyes of the general public.

And yet Boeing came into the show with almost 500 orders, which was mentioned at the start of most stories about Airbus' great showing, so I imagine Boeing still looks pretty good in the eyes of the general public.

And remember, in a month the 787 will roll out and all the stories will be showcasing how it's (essentially) the fastest selling plane in the history of commercial aviation even if Boeing doesn't announce some new large orders sandbagged specifically for the event, so I think Boeing's public image will be just fine.  Smile
 
PGNCS
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:09 pm

Quoting Flying_727 (Reply 30):
think Boeing will take the year once again. And they don't need an airshow to show off.

And neither does Airbus.
 
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flying_727
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:25 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 39):
And neither does Airbus.

Apparently they do, since they seem to have to do it year after year.
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scbriml
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:28 pm

Quoting Flying_727 (Reply 40):
Apparently they do, since they seem to have to do it year after year.

There's a difference between "needing to" and "choosing to". wink 


Airbus and Boeing do things differently. I don't really understand why so many people have such a big issue with it.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:52 pm

Out here Airbus seems to be selling better than Boeing Domestically.
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MEL
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EI321
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:07 pm

Quoting Klkla (Reply 31):
Quoting Clrd4t8koff (Thread starter):
Customers dont tell them to announce UFO's, yet UFO's make up a very considerable chunk of the Boeing.com orders page week in week out.

Your credibility suffers when you make comments like this.

Nice try, but your wrong. And your quoting out of context. The original point that the whold UFO announcements was discussed around was ANNOUNCEMENTS and whether or not customers wanted the order announced. If the customers did want the order announced, there would be no need to call it a UFO.
 
deaphen
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:38 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 42):
Out here Airbus seems to be selling better than Boeing Domestically.

Yup thats for sure MEL, domestically, all you see while spotting are A320's! Its only 9W, SG and IC with some of their 732's flying around with Boeings. The rest are all Airbus operators.

regards
nitin
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halls120
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting Rigo (Reply 2):
Quoting PA110 (Reply 1):
I didn't realize that the Paris Air Show had been reclassified from an aviation exposition to a sales contest.


Now as has been discussed in another thread, Airbus usually keeps their orders quiet and announce them massively during airshows, while Boeing announce theirs as they are signed. So if you are asking whether Airbus will announce more orders than Boeing during the show, the answer is probably yes

And the fact that one company sells more aircraft in one week than the other is meaningless in the long run.

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 35):
Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
A & B are doing VERY well at the moment

You have to admit though 70 orders most not even new compared to 500+ cant but look slightly bad for boeing in the eyes of the general public.

No one has to admit anything of that sort. It only looks bad in the eyes of certain Anetters who enjoy fanning the flames of childish A v. B flamefests.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
814NAS
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:04 pm

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 35):
Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
A & B are doing VERY well at the moment

You have to admit though 70 orders most not even new compared to 500+ cant but look slightly bad for boeing in the eyes of the general public. I know Boeings strategy for airshows and announcements, but its still a bit frustrating to see boeing getting squashed by airbus, not that i have anything against airbus.

There is no denying that Airbus has done well at the current airshow; that is one of their main strategies for announcing orders, and there is nothing wrong with it for them. But everything needs to be taken into perspective. It won't be until Airbus updates and publishes its orders spreadsheet, along with Boeing, will everything become clear, and then the people that matter will be able to make a true and informed comparison between Airbus and Boeing's orders for the year to date.
 
manni
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:05 pm

Quoting Klkla (Reply 31):
But getting back to the original post, what really matters is FIRM ORDERS year to date. By that measure Boeing is far ahead of Airbus.

 no 

It is offcourse waiting now for Airbus' update at the beginning of next month, but based on the various press releases from both Boeing and Airbus I count 499 firm orders for Boeing and 599 firm orders for Airbus. That's on thursday 21.06.07 09:00PM (GMT +8)
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MEA-707
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 37):
Winglets are now standard on every 737NG that is produced. Am I incorrect?

Still 737-700s and 737-800s roll of the production line without winglets, examples are recent deliveries to AirTran (although they slap on winglets to SOME of them later), China Southern, Air China etc.
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CP744
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RE: Is Paris Airshow Airbuses To Win?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:27 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
Not quite.

Their first 737-900 was delivered on April 27 in Boeing's "house livery". The June 12th delivery was the first in Lion Air's own livery.

So right your are.... just goes to show you.... I need to read MORE than the headline!  blush