FCKC
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Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:06 am

http://today.reuters.fr/news/newsArt...RGET-AIRBUS-COMMANDES-20070620.XML

Sorry in French , unable to find a link in English.

John Plueger , director of ILFC , declared this afternoon during the show , before meeting Louis Gallois , one moment or another ILFC will do a deal with Airbus for A350XWBs.
No decision has been made about the commitment of 16 A350s (old version) they have.
He declared , this is a normal way with Airbus about these 16 A350XWBs , and also declared the A350XWB will be a great aircraft , and ILFC will buy it.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:12 am

Didn't SUH just come out and say that the A350 needed more work? And isn't he the chief exec of ILFC? Maybe I've got my facts mixed up...
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
one moment or another ILFC will do a deal with Airbus for A350XWBs.

This means not now, but later on when Airbus finally gets on with the real deal like SUH wants them to. The ILFC will order the 350 eventually, just not now. Once Airbus gets off its mighty lil butt, then the ILFC will do business with them.
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scbriml
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
Once Airbus gets off its mighty lil butt, then the ILFC will do business with them.

What exactly is it Airbus has to get off their butt to do?
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Stitch
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:30 am

John L. Plueger is the President & Chief Operating Officer of ILFC.

Steven F. Udvar-Hazy is the Chairman & Chief Executive Officer / Founder. He sits on the Board of Directors while Plueger sits on the Executive Management team.

http://www.ilfc.com/team.htm
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:36 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 3):
What exactly is it Airbus has to get off their butt to do?

There are countless threads on it. SUH won't order the 350 until Airbus comes up with a whole new design, among other things I cannot remember. But there are threads here on A.net about it. Dont you remember SUH grilled Airbus about it sometime last year??

Edit add: Here is one example: Udvar-Hazy Still Not Happy With A350XWB (by Lumberton Jun 19 2007 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2007-06-21 00:38:50]
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MCOflyer
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):

There are countless threads on it. SUH won't order the 350 until Airbus comes up with a whole new design, among other things I cannot remember. But there are threads here on A.net about it. Dont you remember SUH grilled Airbus about it sometime last year??

I couldn't agree more. This is purly speculation or Airbus must be offering them some really good discounts in order for them to buy it.

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KL808
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 6):
This is purly speculation or Airbus must be offering them some really good discounts in order for them to buy it.

I doubt additional discounts will be given, since discounts where already handed to them when they originally ordered the older version.

Discount will be the difference in price, ILFC will be paying Airbus old version price for the new XWB version.

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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 7):
Discount will be the difference in price, ILFC will be paying Airbus old version price for the new XWB version.

I doubt that the ILFC doesn't care about that. I think they are more interested in the aircraft itself and living up to the expectations and criteria. Money, obviously isnt a factor. If it was, the ILFC would have said to go ahead with the old version of the 350 and today's version wouldn't have existed, IMO.
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rlwynn
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:10 am

I seems to me that in this point in time there is no such thing as an A350. Not even on paper.

How is it possible that there are so many orders for it? Airlines do not even know what it is they are ordering.

[Edited 2007-06-21 01:10:48]
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aminobwana
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 6):
or Airbus must be offering them some really good discounts in order for them to buy it.



Quoting KL808 (Reply 7):
ILFC will be paying Airbus old version price for the new XWB version.

Again; Good discounts and old version price (obviously already normally discounted) ?? The XWB cost 25% more than
the old one. How will Airbus manage this financially and economically, as this, as AVITAS estimates, the case with nearly all the other orders ?? see
[url]http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/b usinesstechnology/2003753259_airshow19.html[/url]

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
This means not now, but later on when Airbus finally Udvar-Hazy Still Not Happy With A350XWB gets on with the real deal like SUH wants them to. The ILFC will order the 350 eventually, just not now. Once Airbus gets off its mighty lil butt, then the ILFC will do business with them.

Mr Pflueger would be a masochist to say that ILFC will order the A350, even in the future whatever his Chief and dominant personality in ILFC Mr. Istvan Udvar-Hazy achieves (just at this moment) with his request to Gallois to change to barrels!
Obviously he (and AirframeAS) meant that finally Airbus will see the light and propose an acceptable solution, and then an order would forthcome. But Gallois, for reasons already discussed in the topic "Udvar-Hazy Still Not Happy With A350XWB" , keeps saying NON.

regards

aminobwana
 
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:42 am

To be fair, SUH's main issue is - can he place the airframes with airlines if he buys them without having them pre-emptively fixed on long leases?

Yes - of course he can. The number of customers for the jet in the last ten days says to me demand is strong - the lights are on and burning brightly for the masses as they say.

That being the case, the decision may be taken out of SUH's hands - if airlines want to lease it in its current guise, then they will either order it or lose the business to the competition. I know its a little more complicated that that, but thats the essence of it.

Airbus probably are not willing to redesign the plane to ILFC's specs, probably to the detriment of those who have ordered in its current form. They are probably betting that if they make it as is, ILFC will sign up eventually - they are extremely unlikely not to. SUH does not make the planes, Airbus does, and they have the makings of a great plane.
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klkla
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:17 am

SUH has gone out on a limb in trying to convince Airbus to use a composite frame for the aircraft. If Airbus doesn't capitulate on this point it will be interesting to see what happens. His ego being as big as it is, he might not order it just to make a point and would only order it in the future if airlines were committing up front to leases.

This is not the case with the 787. In the case of the 787 he is so confident he can lease them he has committed to at least 74 right now.

Time will tell.
 
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mariner
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:20 am

I find it interesting that Mr. Plueger is suddently the ILFC Voice - and that he said too much has been made of the differences between ILFC and Airbus.

Sounds to me like Mr. Plueger has been sent in to pour oil on troubled waters. A sea-change at ILFC?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
SUH won't order the 350 until Airbus comes up with a whole new design, among other things I cannot remember.

Mr. Udvar-Hazy can as unhappy as he wants, but I doubt that Airbus will change their minds. And Mr. Plueger seems to think they will order the A350.

mariner

[Edited 2007-06-21 02:26:01]
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KL808
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:24 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 10):
How will Airbus manage this financially and economically, as this, as AVITAS estimates, the case with nearly all the other orders ?? see

Eads already allotted money for the discrepancy in price, I think its around 800 million dollars or Euros (not sure which one), but somebody else might be able to enlighten us on this.

Quoting Klkla (Reply 12):
His ego being as big as it is, he might not order it just to make a point and would only order it in the future if airlines were committing up front to leases.

This is bad for business. You don't mix personal feelings with Business. In any case the shareholders will be breathing down his neck if he does what you say and come later find out that he was mistaken and left in the dust by its competitors who have ordered them.

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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:34 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 11):
Yes - of course he can. The number of customers for the jet in the last ten days says to me demand is strong - the lights are on and burning brightly for the masses as they say.

That being the case, the decision may be taken out of SUH's hands - if airlines want to lease it in its current guise, then they will either order it or lose the business to the competition. I know its a little more complicated that that, but thats the essence of it.

I fully agree with you there Chris.
As the demand for the A350 seems to be stronger than most people expected at this point, the decision is not in SUHs hand anymore.
Current design seems to be approved by many airlines, so SUHs demand gets less and less important,
eventhough Airbus will use the coming year until design freeze to improve the plane as much as possible.
At this point I cant see Airbus to capitulate for SUHs demand for composite frame.
Seems more likely that SUH will be the one to capitulate.
Otherwise he's gonna lose a decent piece of the future WB market.
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sandrozrh
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:37 am

I really dont know what all the fuzz is about? To my knowledge, ILFC is a leasing company. They will eventually have to buy the XWB as airlines will want to lease it and if ILFC can't offer it, airlines will go to other leasing companies who do offer it. So, unless ILFC want to hand the business to their competitors, they will have to buy it eventually, as airlines wont base their fleet planning on ILFC's offers, ILFC has to offer what the airles want, and this will, sooner or later, be the A350XWB. So, unless i completely missed the point here, i can't see one reason why ILFC, or particularely their seemingly arrogant CEO, can put any pressure on airbus, but much mor ethat they'll feel the pressure if they won't order the XWB. Of course they can merely offer the 787, but they'll lose a good part of customers who'll decide for the A350XWB to other leasing companies.

Am I completely off here?  Confused
 
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:38 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 14):
Quoting Klkla (Reply 12):
His ego being as big as it is, he might not order it just to make a point and would only order it in the future if airlines were committing up front to leases.

This is bad for business. You don't mix personal feelings with Business. In any case the shareholders will be breathing down his neck if he does what you say and come later find out that he was mistaken and left in the dust by its competitors who have ordered them.

If he is mistaken he will just order the planes. But unlike the case for the 787 he isn't going to take a chance on this plane up front unless they capitulate on his demand for a composite frame. If they go with the composite frame I'm sure he will order some in advance even if he doesn't already have firm customers lined up to lease them.
 
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:38 am

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 15):
Seems more likely that SUH will be the one to capitulate.

In effect, he has:

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1182291816.html

"International Lease Finance Corporation (ILFC) Chief Executive Steven Udvar-Hazy said on Tuesday that Airbus had frozen the basic design of its A350 model but he expected the plane maker to continue to optimize it."

mariner
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:24 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):

Well, that was faster than what I expected...
 
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:35 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
International Lease Finance Corporation (ILFC) Chief Executive Steven Udvar-Hazy said on Tuesday that Airbus had frozen the basic design of its A350 model but he expected the plane maker to continue to optimize it."

With all due respect: I rest my case.
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 15):
As the demand for the A350 seems to be stronger than most people expected at this point,

...what ILFC will do, I don't know, but the A350XWB has basically gotten the orders which it should have received/has been hyping for the past 2 years......120-130 of the XWB orders should have been Airbus orders to "win" anyway...or had been announced previously...such as QR, US, SU, ALAFCO, CIT, etc...and it was fairly obvious EI was going with the A350 also....
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:44 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
With all due respect: I rest my case.

Hmmmm? There has been no change, Airbus is not going to barrel,

The design is frozen. Mr. Udvar-Hazy seems - at last - to have accepted that and Mr. Plueger is sorting out the relationship between ILFC and Airbus.

My only puzzle is to wonder what Mr. Udver-Hazy thought he could achieve. And why.

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sandrozrh
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
My only puzzle is to wonder what Mr. Udver-Hazy thought he could achieve. And why.

That's what i wonder aswell, read my post above, it seems to me that he has, from the beginning, never been in a position to challenge Airbus.
 
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:19 pm

Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 9):
I seems to me that in this point in time there is no such thing as an A350. Not even on paper.

How is it possible that there are so many orders for it? Airlines do not even know what it is they are ordering.

The A350XWB is at a minimum a paper airplane, and in reality, it is clear that they have a strong basic idea of what it will be. To say airlines are ordering it - firm orders - without even knowing what it is would be what i would call a "stretch".

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 16):
I really dont know what all the fuzz is about? To my knowledge, ILFC is a leasing company. They will eventually have to buy the XWB as airlines will want to lease it and if ILFC can't offer it, airlines will go to other leasing companies who do offer it.



Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 16):
Am I completely off here?

That's pretty much how I see it too. Unless ILFC starts their own airline, they are in the business of predicting the need for airliners, then ordering them for others to lease. In it''s current iteration, the A350XWB would appear to be capable of garnering a large minority, if not near parity with the 787 (I don't know much about the 350 to really give a valid opinion). If that's the case, then they know it will be in demand, particularly as 787 slots fill. Therefore, it's only a matter of time until they place an order, and the only reasons I can see SUH objecting would be because a) he really believes it is a compromised model; or b) he is digging for a better deal.

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Ruscoe
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:30 pm

What Airbus is offering I believe are guarentees about performance without having finalised the design.

If this is the case then airlines can safely buy it, in the knowledge that if it does not meet fuel consumption and other parameters they will be compensated.

This has been forced upon Airbus because of the delays, caused by the 380 and not initially taking the 787 seriously enough.

If they did not get these orders at Paris then the program would surely have died, so it was a matter of putting their necks out and hoping they will be able to meet their promises.

It is not a good position for Airbus to be in, but they are out of choices and chances, and they might be able to pull it off.

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aminobwana
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:03 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 24):
That's pretty much how I see it too. Unless ILFC starts their own airline, they are in the business of predicting the need for airliners, then ordering them for others to lease. In it''s current iteration, the A350XWB would appear to be capable of garnering a large minority, if not near parity with the 787 (I don't know much about the 350 to really give a valid opinion). If that's the case, then they know it will be in demand, particularly as 787 slots fill. Therefore, it's only a matter of time until they place an order, and the only reasons I can see SUH objecting would be because a) he really believes it is a compromised model; or b) he is digging for a better deal.



Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 10):
Mr Pflueger would be a masochist to say that ILFC will order the A350, even in the future whatever his Chief and dominant personality in ILFC Mr. Istvan Udvar-Hazy achieves (just at this moment) with his request to Gallois to change to barrels!
Obviously he (and AirframeAS) meant that finally Airbus will see the light and propose an acceptable solution, and then an order would forthcome. But Gallois, for reasons already discussed in the topic "Udvar-Hazy Still Not Happy With A350XWB" , keeps saying NON.

I do not expect for a moment that a strong personalty as SUH is hiding behind a subordinate.!!

It seems that one factor is being forgotten in the discussion. Airlines which want to lease aircrafts either because they want not. at least for the moment, to incur in such a heavy capital commitment or because they so can ensure an earlier slot, will have to take what ILFC or GECAS has available (abstracting the smaller leasers).. And if these do no buy the A350, airlines would take the B787. This will be so as long there will be a seller or leaser market and not a buyer or lessee one.
And if SUH believe that the life span and other characteristics of the A350 are inferior to the B787, he will be able to offer cheaper leases for the latter as he would for the former.

But here again the "very attractive prices" of Airbus could make a difference, assuming they dare to continue by this avenue.

regards

Aminobwana
 
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mariner
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:11 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 25):
What Airbus is offering I believe are guarentees about performance without having finalised the design.

Mr. Udvar-Hazy has publicly said that the design is frozen. Mr. Pleuger has said that ILFC will buy the A350.

???

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Ruscoe
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:18 pm

Mariner, it just seems impossible that they could have the sort of onfo they need at this stage, and how much of the performance improvements on the 350-1000, which has been ordered, are due to the "new" generation engine which is not defined?
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sandrozrh
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:21 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 26):
But here again the "very attractive prices" of Airbus could make a difference, assuming they dare to continue by this avenue.

Just the usual boeing fans assumption. Yes they will and have offered discounts, but so have and will boeing. Stop posting wild assupmtions that Airbus can only get orders because they sell at rock bottom prices. We will know in a couple of years, but i certainly am positive that they are not selling at a loss. And if you know something we don't, post your source, but i know you dont have one, so stop boring us will ya.
 
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mariner
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:24 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 28):
it just seems impossible that they could have the sort of onfo they need at this stage

It may not be what you want to hear, but it is what they said.

Mr. Pleuger obviously feels he has enough information enough about the A350 to call it "a great airplane."

I have to think he may have reasons for that statement - especially given Mr. Udvar-Hazy's recent acrimonious relationship with Airbus.

mariner
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aminobwana
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:39 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 15):
Seems more likely that SUH will be the one to capitulate.

In effect, he has:

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1182291816.html

"International Lease Finance Corporation (ILFC) Chief Executive Steven Udvar-Hazy said on Tuesday that Airbus had frozen the basic design of its A350 model but he expected the plane maker to continue to optimize it."

I read the article three times and see no capitulating, but a diplomatic suggestion to Gallois to make changes in the design with HE appearing as capitulate.

Quoting KL808 (Reply 14):
This is bad for business. You don't mix personal feelings with Business. In any case the shareholders will be breathing down his neck if he does what you say and come later find out that he was mistaken and left in the dust by its competitors who have ordered them.

SUH was a penniless immigrant who become a billionaire, world 180th richest man, founder of ILFC and as far as I know, one of the main if not the main shareholder of AIG, ILFC owner. Of course, this was not achieved by mixing his feeling with business

I wonder why there seems to be doubt about that he can impose his will on ILFC (see my reply 26), whilst it is readily accepted that Tim Clark, who finally is not more than a (very important) employee of ER, is accepted as the decision maker.

Quoting KL808 (Reply 14):
Eads already allotted money for the discrepancy in price, I think its around 800 million dollars or Euros (not sure which one), but somebody else might be able to enlighten us on this.

As far as I know, these $ 800M has more to do with the continuing losses of the A380. Airbus could not have taken a charge before receiving firm orders.

And if the continue their pricing policy beyond 300 frames, $ 800M means less than $ 3M per frame, clearly insignificant. beyond that, a loss is a loss, independently if covered by a charge made in advance.

And of course: Airbus is meant in the next years to make a profit, not only to cover losses.

regards

aminobwana
 
iwok
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:41 pm

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 15):
As the demand for the A350 seems to be stronger than most people expected at this point, the decision is not in SUHs hand anymore.

I am still waiting for a real customer to come along before I agree with you. QR is a strategic bacause they want to get into aerospace technology, US is essentially forced to do so, SU is strictly political. If LH, BA, SQ or other big players order then I bet SUH will be backpedalling all the way.

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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:47 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 31):
SUH was a penniless immigrant who become a billionaire, world 180th richest man, founder of ILFC and as far as I know, one of the main if not the main shareholder of AIG, ILFC owner. Of course, this was not achieved by mixing his feeling with business

I am very well aware of Mr. Udvar-Hazy's background. I have followed the psychology of what Mr. Udvar-Hazy has been doing since he first spat he dummy at Istat. I have asked many questions about it here.

It makes little difference to what is happening.

http://in.today.reuters.com/news/new..._India-303991-1.xml&archived=False

"We're going to come to an agreement with Airbus at some point in time," Plueger said, but emphasized there was no hurry to order a plane that wouldn't be delivered until 2014.

As for that pyschology, I can only say that having worked closely with several brilliant, self-made men, Mr. Udvar-Hazy's statements are following a classic pattern.

mariner

[Edited 2007-06-21 07:48:31]
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astuteman
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:34 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 25):
What Airbus is offering I believe are guarentees about performance without having finalised the design.

The problem with this sort of post is it infers that Airbus have just made up a load of numbers, purely to look competitive, and gain orders, without having a clue about how they're actually going to do it.

This is so naive (in my opinion), as to be almost offensive.
The A350XWB has been under development for nearly 18 months. (Gustav Humbert admitted work started after the QF order was lost).
They're firming up on supply chain contracts as we speak - a process which requires a specification robust enough to price and risk analyse on.

Not being funny, but it takes less than a day with a spreadsheet, the physical geometry of the plane (hence lift/drag), and a rough understanding of the engine SFC to pretty much (roughly) verify at least the range/payload/fuel consumption data of the A350XWB models.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 28):
Mariner, it just seems impossible that they could have the sort of onfo they need at this stage

Again, the design process for a complex product goes through many stages, starting from the major characteristics (length, fuse size, wing span/area, engine thrust, followed by iterations of construction process, materials, systems definition, followed by component definition (in conjunction with the suppliers, from the system spec), followed by details.

HMS Astute was rolled out last Friday. Her principal characteristics, including performance, operational capability, maintainability, safety etc, were finalised back in 1998.
We were still designing details last year, 8 years later

So what? Throughout the process we KNEW what characteristics were going to deliver the performance, how to deliver them, and the risks to that delivery (i.e. they weren't ALL given - there were things we had to develop, but we knew exactly what they were). How? Because building submarines is what we do! It's our "expertise"

"Design finalising" obviously means different things to different people.
I can guarantee you that, even though "Final Design Freeze" for the A350XWB is August 2008 (IIRC), details will continue to change right up to c. 2011
That has no bearing whatsoever on the work done to get to specification freeze THIS summer, and the vision of the engineering team of how that specification is going to be delivered. They are employed for just such "expertise".
And they will KNOW what needs to be done, AND what the airlines need to know.

People.
Please stop fabricating this myth that the A350XWB is a wish-list and nothing else.
It's false, misleading, demeaning, and illustrates nothing more than a complete lack of understanding of the design lifecycle.
(IMO  Smile )
(Doesn't say much for the professionalism of the airlines either BTW)
Regards
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13686
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RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:59 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
SUH won't order the 350 until Airbus comes up with a whole new design, among other things I cannot remember.

There is no way that Airbus is going to change the basic design of the A350 again. SUH, and a number of a.netters, just need to get over it. From the noises currently coming out of ILFC, it seems that SUH has started that process. Now all we need is for a.netters to follow. wink 

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 31):
As far as I know, these $ 800M has more to do with the continuing losses of the A380. Airbus could not have taken a charge before receiving firm orders.

No, you are wrong. The monies (I believe it was $800m) that Airbus put aside this year were specifically to cover the cost, to Airbus, of converting original A350 orders to XWBs at the original A350 price. It has absolutely nothing to do with the A380.


To those in this thread ascribing "super-hero powers" to SUH, I would ask just one simple question. IF he is so smart, and IF the A350XWB is such a bad plane, why the hell did ILFC order the original A350? scratchchin 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
chiad
Posts: 1016
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:45 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 34):
This is so naive (in my opinion), as to be almost offensive.
The A350XWB has been under development for nearly 18 months. (Gustav Humbert admitted work started after the QF order was lost).
They're firming up on supply chain contracts as we speak - a process which requires a specification robust enough to price and risk analyse on.

I totally agree with you Astuteman.
It's almost nothing to discuss. The order wave we've just experienced speaks for itself.

But I feel that we just have to ignore the a.netters saying that the A350 doesn't match or exceed the performance of the B787 in its respective aspects.
They hope more than they actually think.
Some even suggested that Airbus should abandon the Wide-body market.
 Yeah sure
I'm trying to learn to keep my words tender and soft in case I have to eat them tomorrow.
It seems that some a.netter should consider doing the same ... or apply for a job from Udvar-Hazy.
(Udvar-Hazy ....... fitting name i must say!)
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 4848
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 34):
The problem with this sort of post is it infers...

Just to nitpick, you mean 'implies'.  Wink

But I agree with the rest of your post!  bigthumbsup 
 
814NAS
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:32 pm

RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:45 pm

I agree with all you say, Astuteman.

And...

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 34):
They're firming up on supply chain contracts as we speak - a process which requires a specification robust enough to price and risk analyse on.

That is so true, in fact, to back up your assertion on "supply chain contracts," with Airbus and the A350, Pierre Beaudoin, Bombardier Aerospace President and Chief Operating Officer, has been recently quoted as saying: "We would like to be suppliers of this (A350) program," and is currently talking to Airbus with a view to supplying fuselage and wings.

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1182326548.html
 
jfk787nyc
Posts: 478
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:59 am

RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:32 pm

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 16):



Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 16):
SandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 686 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted Wed Jun 20 2007 20:37:32 your local time (11 hours 47 minutes 54 secs ago) and read 3359 times:


I really dont know what all the fuzz is about? To my knowledge, ILFC is a leasing company. They will eventually have to buy the XWB as airlines will want to lease it and if ILFC can't offer it, airlines will go to other leasing companies who do offer it. So, unless ILFC want to hand the business to their competitors, they will have to buy it eventually, as airlines wont base their fleet planning on ILFC's offers, ILFC has to offer what the airles want, and this will, sooner or later, be the A350XWB. So, unless i completely missed the point here, i can't see one reason why ILFC, or particularely their seemingly arrogant CEO, can put any pressure on airbus, but much mor ethat they'll feel the pressure if they won't order the XWB. Of course they can merely offer the 787, but they'll lose a good part of customers who'll decide for the A350XWB to other leasing companies.

Am I completely off here?

ILFC Is a leasing company you are right. But, they are also the company that has to keep the plane flying for 20 years so they can make there money on the plane. What will happen if he commited to 75 Planes for 75 Customers and after 5 Years this plane turns out to be a horrible big headache, with all kinds of problems. Then the customers will not sign new leases for the planes and he will be the only one actually loosing money on the deal. Even if AIRBUS offers warranty, No one wants to fly a peice of s**t with a warranty. To Many Headaches, To Many Problems.
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4805
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:32 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
SUH won't order the 350 until Airbus comes up with a whole new design

a) Yes he will.
b) he never said he wouldn't.

Remember how he is the one who absolutely hated (at least according to certain people on a.net) the original A350? Well, despite that, he still ordered it. So what reason do you have to state that he will not order the XWB, when all he has said was that he was 'more comfortable' with Boeing's design? He never said he wouldn't order the XWB as it is now.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 6):
This is purly speculation

So let's see...

When the ILFC COO himself says he'll order the thing, it's 'speculation', but when the a.net derives from what SUH said about it that they won't order it (despite him never having said that), that is somehow not speculation? Tell me how that works...

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 34):

Excellent post, as usual. Unfortunately, it'll probably be lost on those people it's meant for. They'll ignore the points you raise, and simply throw the same oneliners into the discussion the next time the subject comes up, if not today, then tomorrow.
 
columba
Posts: 5053
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:05 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 6):
I couldn't agree more. This is purly speculation or Airbus must be offering them some really good discounts in order for them to buy it.

Or maybe some airlines approached ILFC saying if you order them we will take them.....or they have seen how many airlines have decided for the A350 over the last few weeks and also see others buying soon (e.g. EK, BA, LH etc....) and don' t wan to fall behind.
I really don't understand why every time Airbus is announcing an order or an agreement it always has to be Airbus must have given them some good discounts or have given them away for free can't there be another explanation like they are building good and reliable aircraft.......????
Regarding some statements here, it is unbelievable how many people seem to have a big personal hate against Airbus and its products. Airbus would not have been leading in sales for several years if their products would have been "pieces of shxt" as many here say. Granted they had their problems but that has nothing to do with the quality of their products.
Also Boeing did have its share of problems which some people seem to forget.

[Edited 2007-06-21 15:31:42]
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:10 pm

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 39):
What will happen if he commited to 75 Planes for 75 Customers

One aircraft per airline?

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 39):
after 5 Years this plane turns out to be a horrible big headache, with all kinds of problems.

Since its considered to be more conservative than the 787, its also less likely to be more problematic according to your logic.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 39):
Even if AIRBUS offers warranty, No one wants to fly a peice of s**t with a warranty. To Many Headaches, To Many Problems.

Dont tell me you actually expect people to take tripe ilke this seriously?
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:15 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 15):
Seems more likely that SUH will be the one to capitulate.

In effect, he has:

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1182291816.html

"International Lease Finance Corporation (ILFC) Chief Executive Steven Udvar-Hazy said on Tuesday that Airbus had frozen the basic design of its A350 model but he expected the plane maker to continue to optimize it."

Much more likely SUH got the deal he wanted.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:42 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 34):

The problem with this sort of post is it infers that Airbus have just made up a load of numbers, purely to look competitive, and gain orders, without having a clue about how they're actually going to do it.

This is so naive (in my opinion), as to be almost offensive.

...while they may be off by a couple of % points "here and there"...for the most part, they will come very close to their numbers and/or "hit" them....so I agree, it is almost offensive......
"Up the Irons!"
 
sandrozrh
Posts: 2420
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 am

RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:52 pm

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 39):
Even if AIRBUS offers warranty, No one wants to fly a peice of s**t with a warranty. To Many Headaches, To Many Problems.

So in other words, you're saying that the A350 will be a piece of shit with warranty. Way to go  Yeah sure
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5730
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 39):
What will happen if he commited to 75 Planes for 75 Customers and after 5 Years this plane turns out to be a horrible big headache, with all kinds of problems.

Can you give us an example of such a "horrible big headache" in the past? To the best of my knowledge, there aren't many five year old Airbus planes sitting around with no one wanting to lease them. If anything, it appears to be the opposite - more demand than availability.

If you think the new A350 will be so bad (or even have the chance to be bad - remember, it's not 1960 anymore), then please elaborate on why you think so. We're all ears.

-Dave
-Dave
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 44):
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 34):

The problem with this sort of post is it infers that Airbus have just made up a load of numbers, purely to look competitive, and gain orders, without having a clue about how they're actually going to do it.

This is so naive (in my opinion), as to be almost offensive.

...while they may be off by a couple of % points "here and there"...for the most part, they will come very close to their numbers and/or "hit" them....so I agree, it is almost offensive......

While John Leahy might run off in the mouth in public, all the airlines have their own expert engineers who are more than capable of determining the reality. The MD-11 fiasco with SQ put an end to trusting what the manufacturer says. I seriously doubt either Airbus or Boeing gives "cooked" numbers to their customers.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
jfk787nyc
Posts: 478
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:59 am

RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:20 am

Reply to ALL:

I do not believe the A350 will be a problem.

1- 75 planes to 75 customers - I was just giving an example.

2- I never said the plane will be bad.

3- For now it is only on paper no concrete plane.

Was all the airlines happy with the A340? Please advise!
I assume the 777 is still doing its job and everyone is happy with it.

AIRBUS the company itself sells planes by bashing the competition, Especially when you bash the competition and you are wrong yourself. 787-A380.

All of these carriers and leasing compaines should not have problems with the producer of the plane.

Has AIRBUS even announced when exactly all these orders will be delivered? Did Qatar get an actual first plane delivery time?
 
sandrozrh
Posts: 2420
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 am

RE: Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs

Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 48):

AIRBUS the company itself sells planes by bashing the competition

 rotfl  This is probably the nr1 dumbest statement ive read in the last couple of weeks.

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