Ansett767
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Boeing 744 With 287 Seats... Money Making?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:28 pm

I noticed ANA's 744's (some of them anyway) are configured with a massive J class and Y+ section and total only 287 all up.....

Most 744's are around 360-380 I think (Qantas, BA, United, LH) with KLM's over 400 (with Mostly Economy). With the exception of BA's 291 pax 744's with the bigger J class configuration.

So - which makes more money - having 80% economy at lower fares or 40-50% taking up business and econ+ at higher fares?

Hope someone can provide some info, as this is really interesting

thanks!
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Boeing 744 With 287 Seats... Money Making?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:39 pm

LH's standard layout has "only" 330 seats, and I think there are some planes with even less seats, or at least have the option of doing so.

Apparently, it does make money, as do 737 flights with only 48 seats transatlantic.

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vhqpa
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RE: Boeing 744 With 287 Seats... Money Making?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:08 pm

Depends on where it's sent shouldn't be a problem on extremely high yielding sectors eg. TYO-LON also don't forget about the extra freight that can be hauled with less passenger baggage.




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airtebiong
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RE: Boeing 744 With 287 Seats... Money Making?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:35 pm

Quoting Vhqpa (Reply 2):
Depends on where it's sent shouldn't be a problem on extremely high yielding sectors eg. TYO-LON also don't forget about the extra freight that can be hauled with less passenger baggage.


True. LHR-NRT, on average, have a very good load in C-class, especially during the summer season.

The reason the B77W is being used is because of its bigger C-cabin.
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Carpethead
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RE: Boeing 744 With 287 Seats... Money Making?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:07 pm

Currently, those 744s are used only on NRT-CDG & FRA. NRT-LHR has recently switched over to the 773ER, which has only 247 seats.
I have no knowledge of whether these flights make profits, but NH's entire int'l operation is only marginally black for what it's worth. Unless one is a bean counter at NH, nobody will know exact figures. The load factor on these flights are about 75-80% year-round.
 
airtebiong
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RE: Boeing 744 With 287 Seats... Money Making?

Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:31 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 4):
Currently, those 744s are used only on NRT-CDG & FRA. NRT-LHR has recently switched over to the 773ER, which has only 247 seats.

Actually, B744s and B773ERs alternate on the NRT-LHR route. It will be a full B744 operation in July and Aug, IIRC, then back to alternate until the full B773ER in the winter schedule..
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upperdeckfan
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RE: Boeing 744 With 287 Seats... Money Making?

Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:11 am

I know the business doesn't work that way but let's do pure and simple arithmetics comparing BA transatlantic fares from LHR (average - no JFK) on a 744 against KLM

BA
14 F at 12000 EUR = 164000 EUR
70 J at 5000 EUR = 350000 EUR
30 Y+ at 1200 EUR = 36000 EUR
177 Y at 600 EUR = 106200 EUR
TOTAL = 656200 EUR

KLM
42 J at 6000 EUR = 252000 EUR
388 Y at 800 EUR = 310400 EUR
TOTAL = 562000 EUR

As you can see as long as BA is able to keep 80-90% loads on F/J at these rates their configuration seems to be more profitable even with cheapier Y fares.
744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
 
jimyvr
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RE: Boeing 744 With 287 Seats... Money Making?

Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting Ansett767 (Thread starter):

So - which makes more money - having 80% economy at lower fares or 40-50% taking up business and econ+ at higher fares?

The latter. The former may just have ridiculously lower fares being sold that won't help airline's operation

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 6):
KLM
42 J at 6000 EUR = 252000 EUR
388 Y at 800 EUR = 310400 EUR

I know it's just in general, but the J class fare are pretty much a standard, lesser variation. But in Y, you would likely to see 50-60% of the 388 seats selling at the fare of EUR400-500, so at the end, the revenue will be lower than J.
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upperdeckfan
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RE: Boeing 744 With 287 Seats... Money Making?

Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:08 am

Just to complement my prior post, it's worhty to say that very few routes are able to fill 80 to 100 premium seats every flight so that's why you'll find all kind of seat plans even within the same company.
744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
 
davidkunzVIE
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RE: Boeing 744 With 287 Seats... Money Making?

Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:22 am

It all depends on the route. OS's 777s (344 seats!) didn't make money on the Oz-Routes, however they seem to on the IAD, NRT and DEL flts.
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spacecadet
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RE: Boeing 744 With 287 Seats... Money Making?

Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:04 am

JL flies 744's JFK-NRT with a similar configuration to the one mentioned in the original post. They have a page somewhere on their web site that shows this configuration, but I can't find it right now. (I stumbled across it once by accident, and I have flown on the planes themselves.)

I think it's obvious that if they can fill the planes, they'd be more profitable than filling up a plane with economy passengers. And the round-trip that I flew on seemed to be pretty much full in both directions, which did surprise me given the cost of all those seats.
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kanebear
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RE: Boeing 744 With 287 Seats... Money Making?

Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:45 am

JL can and does fill the planes. I flew JL9 (ORD-NRT) in F earlier this month on a revenue ticket. Had to waitlist for a seat. Tried to reroute via SFO or JFK. SFO had some space but JFK was absolutely full. The ORD flight, too, went out packed. EVERY seat was filled in F and J. Same thing on CX289 to FRA. Not a seat open in F or J.

CX also have high-revenue configurations with very large J classes. The new F is down to just 9 seats... but they'll be able to fill it.

[Edited 2007-06-21 21:47:04]

[Edited 2007-06-21 21:51:59]
 
Viscount724
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RE: Boeing 744 With 287 Seats... Money Making?

Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting Ansett767 (Thread starter):
Most 744's are around 360-380 I think (Qantas, BA, United, LH) with KLM's over 400 (with Mostly Economy). With the exception of BA's 291 pax 744's with the bigger J class configuration.

Only 5 of KL's 744s are all-passenger with that configuration. The rest are combis with 42 J and 236 Y, total 278.
 
behramjee
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RE: Boeing 744 With 287 Seats... Money Making?

Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:56 am

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 1):
LH's standard layout has "only" 330 seats, and I think there are some planes with even less seats, or at least have the option of doing so.

thats because certain B 744s of LH have 80 J class seats hence the overall small number of seats on board compared to a typical B 744 ! LH would use those B 744s with 80 J class seats on its most profitable long haul routes which would be NRT, JFK, ORD, SFO, HKG & SIN.

An A 346 which can easily hold 310-330 pax in a 3 class lay out, sees 266 for QR and 286 for EY !!!

AAs 3 class B 772ERs sees only 236 seats !!!