MEACEDAR
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US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:02 pm

My buddy and me were talking about the A380, and after he left my house, I thought of a good question.

Why are there no U.S. airline even looking at the A380?

I would love to see UA or US colors on a A380.

What are the chances of this happening?
 
da man
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:13 pm

Quoting MEACEDAR (Thread starter):
What are the chances of this happening?

Slim to none, and I'll tell you why...

Most if not all US airlines have decided to focus on frequency instead of capacity, preferring to fly 2 777s instead of one 747/A380. The only US airlines to currently operate the 747 are NW and UA, and they comprise only a relatively small part of their long-haul fleets with only 15 with NW and 30 at UA IIRC. I would expect NW and UA to not have a 1:1 replacement for their 747s, preferring to fly the 787 and A330s, but I could foresee a very limited small order of the 747-8I at both airlines.
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American 767
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:47 pm

Quoting MEACEDAR (Thread starter):
I would love to see UA or US colors on a A380.

United, maybe. And I say maybe because I'm not sure they will buy it to replace their remaining 744's, as Da man said the US airlines are rather looking at increasing frequency on routes instead of flying large capacity aircraft. That's why no US airline flies any 773.

US Airways: never gonna happen. I am certain that US Airways will never buy A380's, they were never interested in aircraft larger than the 767 or A330. They don't fly 747's at all, they never did (yes HP did but not for long). They might buy the A350XWB but not the A380.

The US airlines are not even interested in the 748, NW and UA might show interest but it doesn't look like so.

Ben Soriano
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helvknight
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:35 pm

The only one I can think of would be UA for the Asian routes due to the slot restrictions at NRT.

Most of the US carriers don't fly the big metal now, I think only UA and NW fly the 744, the rest don't go bigger than 777.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 2):
US Airways - They might buy the A350XWB but not the A380.

they have just ordered a shedload of A350s. Having said that A380s will be flying with a US code due to US's tieup with SQ.
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member - Groucho Marx
 
ncelhr
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:36 pm

Quoting MEACEDAR (Thread starter):
Why are there no U.S. airline even looking at the A380?

1. It's an expensive aircraft, and most cannot afford it for the time being
2. Fewer landing slot restrictions at US airports
3. The US Intercontinental market is shifting in the other direction at the moment
4. Oil not expensive enough yet
 
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ERJ170
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 6):
1. It's an expensive aircraft, and most cannot afford it for the time being
2. Fewer landing slot restrictions at US airports
3. The US Intercontinental market is shifting in the other direction at the moment
4. Oil not expensive enough yet

5. Very few routes require ~600 flights/leg
6. Competition with smaller aircraft and more frequency would kill whomever put a 380 on a route..
Aiming High and going far..
 
bond007
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 7):
What's the point of flying so many flights when they end up being delayed 2 hours all the time? I would prefer to fly an aircraft that is scheduled for 8PM and leaves at 8PM, rather than seeing he 6PM flight leaving at 8 and the 8PM leaving at 9:30...

Wow, you are just copying my old quotes  Wink

Yes, most of the high-frequency flights, that the airlines say 'we' are all asking for, actually end up being less frequent and more delayed, than scheduling a larger aircraft less-frequently. This isn't my opinion, as I've posted random actual data many times, and it's the norm, rather than the exception at places like DCA and LGA.



Jimbo
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Rj111
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:02 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 8):
6. Competition with smaller aircraft and more frequency would kill whomever put a 380 on a route..

That depends on the lenght of the flight and the window of opportunity for a flight. In many situations frequency offers a negligable advantage.

[Edited 2007-06-22 14:05:04]
 
paulcaz
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:05 pm

knew this would set the cat among the pigeons, but as someone said passengers don't want more aircraft the business man wants to fly in the morning fly out in the evening!
Paul Newman Ascot UK
 
Glareskin
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:06 pm

Chances are slim. But maybe UA or NW will purchase in a couple of years. Don't expect anything before the A380 is at leat one year in service.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 4):
Why send a big ole monster that will only allow one frequency on a route when you can offer two smaller aircraft that will provide more frequencies and still fly at acceptable capacity? And Americans don't contribute any more to GreenHouse gases than the EU does

I don't like the we he stated it; it not a US - EU war. But your statement in itself proves his statement true. Let's say two 772's consume more fuel per pax and pollute more per pax than one A380.

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 6):
1. It's an expensive aircraft, and most cannot afford it for the time being

I doubt 1 A380 is more expensive than 2 x 772. Especially if you take maintenance into account.

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 6):
2. Fewer landing slot restrictions at US airports

See comment CuriousFlyer below.

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 7):
The Port Authority of NY and NJ is thinking of restricting access to its airports for smaller airplanes



Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 8):
Competition with smaller aircraft and more frequency would kill whomever put a 380 on a route..

Not if they both get one slot and the demand is for more than 400 pax.......
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
halls120
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:10 pm

Quoting Paulcaz (Reply 12):
knew this would set the cat among the pigeons, but as someone said passengers don't want more aircraft the business man wants to fly in the morning fly out in the evening!

Exactly.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Burkhard
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:11 pm

Slot restriction is no issue in the US, compared to Europe or Japan.

If US airlines cannot get more slots on their home bases, or if they would be forced to reduce the number of slots on them by anti monopoly authorities, they would go for larger aircrafts. I do not see this to happen at ORD,ATL,DFW etc .

A strong increase of traffic into China could change this, where slots are limited, but again I could expect UA to buy a handful of 748 first.

Burkhard
 
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Stitch
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting MEACEDAR (Thread starter):
Why are there no U.S. airline even looking at the A380?

I feel the main reason is that it doesn't fit how US airlines operate. With the sheer size and population of the United States, it is served by a large number of domestic carriers which is relatively unique in the world of commercial aviation. As such, when it comes to international services, you do not have two or three major carriers who handle all the people, but instead eight to nine. And then you consider all the US majors with international services are also members of alliances with the largest established non-US international carriers.

So US airlines flying international routes just don't have the concerns about capacity and slot availability that some of the non-US international carriers do. AA doesn't need a 747, to say nothing of an A380, to fly to LHR from JFK because they have BA and OneWorld with six (seven?) flights a day in addition to their own multiple flights, so that is plenty of capacity and slots. UA doesn't have to have the A380 to fly to NRT because they have services from four of their five hubs, plus one additional gateway, plus SQ and NH services via the Star Alliance.

Price is not so much an issue, because the airlines can find the financing if they could make a solid business case for the A380. And trans-Pacific ops, because of their stage length, don't really lend themselves to too large a spread of frequency (you need to depart within a certain window to arrive at your destination at a certain desirable window).

Quoting MEACEDAR (Thread starter):
What are the chances of this happening?

I think it is very, very unlikely unless the current "Big Six" (UA, AA, DL, CO, NW, US) become the "Bigger Three" or UA merges with LH, BA with AA, NW merges with KL, or DL/CO merge with AF or another large SkyTeam international member.
 
bobnwa
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting Paulcaz (Reply 3):
Thats why the Americans Contribute more to green house gases they would rather send 2 planes half empty than one A380 full!

Show me an airline in the US that is flying with a 50% or lower load factor. Do you have any more whitty staements like that?
 
bond007
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:18 pm

This is what happens .... and it's no exception, trust me:

Last night DCA-LGA:
Sched vs actual

4:00pm 4:09pm
5:00pm 5:23pm
6:00pm Cancelled
7:00pm 10:49pm
8:00pm 11:02pm
9:00pm 10:44pm

Check most days amd you'll see similar pictures.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
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ERJ170
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:20 pm

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 7):
You are misinformed

It happens.. my bad.. we are bad Americans..

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 7):
There are many congested airports in the US like JFK, EWR, LAX, SFO, ATL and ORD, where A380s would make a lot of sense.

Every airport is a MAJOR hub. But you don't see a lot of US airlines have a lot of frequencies to any one A380 worthy destination from any of those airports (save NYC-LON).

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 7):
The Port Authority of NY and NJ is thinking of restricting access to its airports for smaller airplanes, and when they will have to do it, US airlines wil have to re-think their policy of small aircrafts.

Restricting them from a bunch of RJ.. not form widebody jets.. they are not going to say no more 757, 767, 330, 340, or 777 into JFK or EWR.. they are going to say.. no more 35-50 seat aircraft into LGA from mid-tier and large-tier airports.. your point doesn't really count when talking about the A380.

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 7):
What's the point of flying so many flights when they end up being delayed 2 hours all the time?

The problem is that currently, a lot of US airlines do not have the right size aircraft for every route. It happened when a lot of airlines dropped their F100, 732, etc.. I agree that having a bunch of flights that never arrive on time seems kinda pointless, but until the airlines have the right aircraft to match the route.. it will be a problem. Now that airlines are now moving from the RJ craze into the right-size craze (DL with the CR9, US with the E90, B6 with the E90), you will see routes being served better and more efficiently.
Aiming High and going far..
 
bond007
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:40 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 15):
The problem is that currently, a lot of US airlines do not have the right size aircraft for every route. It happened when a lot of airlines dropped their F100, 732, etc.. I agree that having a bunch of flights that never arrive on time seems kinda pointless, but until the airlines have the right aircraft to match the route.. it will be a problem. Now that airlines are now moving from the RJ craze into the right-size craze (DL with the CR9, US with the E90, B6 with the E90), you will see routes being served better and more efficiently.

I disagree somewhat. It's no accident that the airlines are using RJs for these routes.... that's one reason why they bought them. They are flying the same route every hour, because the 'flying public' want more frequency ... what they fail to understand is that none of us want more frequency, if it means more delays and more cancellations ... we'll take less frequency any day, and if you ask us the right questions we'll tell you that.

Problem is that it's not just RJs ... many of these shuttles are 737s. I'm not sure that CRJ9s and E90s will mean hourly flights becoming every 2hrs. The airlines are convinced we all want hourly shuttles. It's going to take a bigger change than that.


Jimbo
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keesje
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:02 pm

I think everyone agrees NW and UA are the most likely candidates.

They operate 747's from and to hub accross the Pacific for decades.

The Asian market is growing rapidly.

United & Northwest didn't buy piles of 744s for nothing even when smaller A340s, DC10's, MD11's, 777's for long haul were available.

Hubs like NRT will remain restricted, as are China landing rights.

I think NWA can cause a suprize, they have taken unexpected radical decisions before.


A380 picture I took with my phone very, very recently..

[Edited 2007-06-22 15:19:31]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
SEPilot
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 4):
4. Oil not expensive enough yet

Or perhaps oil is too expensive. I'll bet that when you actually put it in service and use realistic load factors the amount of fuel per passenger will be just as high flying the A380 as anything else except on those very, very few routes where there are more passengers than seats on a regular basis. This will be especially true once 787's and A350's start becoming common, as they will compete with the A380 on fuel burn per passenger even when the A380 is full. The only place the A380 makes sense is slot-restricted routes where the load factors are consistently high, and there just aren't that many of those, and none in the domestic US market.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Glareskin
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:23 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 17):
A380 picture I took with my phone very, very recently..

Where did you take it. MSP or DTWBig grin
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
keesje
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 19):
Where did you take it. MSP or DTW?

Memphis after I came back from mud island..


http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00008630
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Curiousflyer
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:40 pm

Part of my post earlier was referring to a deleted post, and then my entire post was deleted, so I re-state the part of my post that still makes sense (and is referred to in post 15 for example):

There are many congested airports in the US like JFK, LAX, SFO, ORD, ATL, where A380s would make a lot of sense. The Port Authority of NY and NJ is thinking of restricting access to its airports for smaller airplanes, and when they will have to do it, US airlines wil have to re-think their policy of small aircrafts.

What's the point of flying so many flights when they end up being delayed 2 hours all the time? I would prefer to fly an aircraft that is scheduled for 8PM and leaves at 8PM, rather than seeing he 6PM flight leaving at 8 and the 8PM leaving at 9:30...

And to reply to that post 15, from ERJ170, I still believe my points are valid. American A380s could serve many more points than LON only, even domestic routes like JFK, EWR, ORD, MIA, LAX, SFO, and with slot restrictions, even though other widebodies will be allowed, a very large one might save the day on some routes.

[Edited 2007-06-22 15:45:12]
 
airtran717
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 4):
Oil not expensive enough yet

?????????????????

How does that make sense? We won't buy a plane until the oil gets MORE expensive, costing us even more in operating costs???
 
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yowza
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 22):
How does that make sense? We won't buy a plane until the oil gets MORE expensive, costing us even more in operating costs???

Think about it, it DOES make sense...
 
Thorben
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:55 pm

Certainly a possibility. With open skies now EU carriers can go from where they want in Europe to the US. This means even more European flights to the US. American carriers have recently stepped up their international activities, and if they want to be able to compete, they'll need A380s to have good prices and pax comfort.

In addition to that, UA flies 747s to LHR and FRA, why not use A380s? FRA is a strong LH hub, so is MUC, and ZRH is the LY hub. UA could fly big planes to those hubs, also to Japan, China, and Australia. NW could use them to AMS in the future, and to Japan. I expect UA and NW to order within the next five years if they remain profitable.

AA is surely a candidate, US, CO, and DL rather not. At least not in the near future, it all depends on how they'll develop.

One thing is sure, foreign carriers will fly fleets of A380s into the US, let's see how the Americans will deal with that competition.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
Glareskin
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 24):
NW could use them to AMS

I agree with most of your arguing but this is unlikely. It is a long time ago that I've seen the NW 747's in AMS. It's only A330's nowadays.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
Thorben
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:09 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 25):
I agree with most of your arguing but this is unlikely. It is a long time ago that I've seen the NW 747's in AMS. It's only A330's nowadays.

I think the 747 service ended in 2006, and since it where mainly 742s, I guess it was because of the retirement of the aircraft. Sometimes NW has four A330s sitting there at the same time, how useful is that?

http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=631969
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
SEPilot
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 24):
One thing is sure, foreign carriers will fly fleets of A380s into the US, let's see how the Americans will deal with that competition.

American carriers thought in the 70's that they needed to buy 747's because everybody else was. They got badly burned and are not likely to repeat that debacle. No sensible carrier will buy a plane just because their competitors have it; they will buy it if it fits their needs. Very few carriers NEED the A380.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
keesje
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:16 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 25):
I agree with most of your arguing but this is unlikely. It is a long time ago that I've seen the NW 747's in AMS. It's only A330's nowadays.

A333 have lower casm then e.g. 744's. AMS-DTW are 3 full flight in the morning. If traffic keeps growing 5% per year perhaps they could combine 2 of the 4 flights in 7 years..

IMO we shouldn't focus to much at what's flying today & do 2013 projections based on it..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
keesje
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 27):
Very few carriers NEED the A380.

Are you saying all these carriers basicly don't know what they are doing?

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
AirframeAS
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 5):
Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 6):
1. It's an expensive aircraft, and most cannot afford it for the time being
2. Fewer landing slot restrictions at US airports
3. The US Intercontinental market is shifting in the other direction at the moment
4. Oil not expensive enough yet

5. Very few routes require ~600 flights/leg
6. Competition with smaller aircraft and more frequency would kill whomever put a 380 on a route..

7. Given the state the industry is in at this time in the U.S., the legancies cannot afford to buy one.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
halls120
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 27):
Very few carriers NEED the A380.

Are you saying all these carriers basicly don't know what they are doing?

it's not a question of airlines "not knowing what they are doing." It's a question of whether or not purchasing a VLA makes sense for them.

While I won't presume to speak for SEPilot, it is a fact that many of the airlines that originally bought 747's did so because they didn't want to be "left out." When they took delivery, they soon discovered that their route structure was such that they weren't making money flying a 747.

Hasn't at least one 380 customer - Etihad - asked to defer their acquisition of 380's?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
SEPilot
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
Are you saying all these carriers basicly don't know what they are doing?

I don't know; I am not familiar with most of them. They believe that the A380 will make money for them, and they may be right. In that case, they made a good choice and good for them. Others may find themselves in the same position as the US carriers with the 747, and will come to regret it. When I said that very few carriers NEED the A380, I meant that there are few if any that will suffer for NOT buying it. That is not to say that it will not pay off for them, but that its absence will hurt them. I do not question that the A380 is a magnificent plane and a great achievement; but so was the DC-7. It was the wrong plane at the wrong time and its existence has hampered Airbus severely in the building of new aircraft that the airlines REALLY need; i.e. more efficient mid-sized and smaller airliners.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:37 pm

So many US airlines got burned on the 747 30+ years ago I don't think the majority of them are ready to repeat that mistake.

Granted, the legacies' networks are far different than they were in the early 70's, but there is an old saying: You never go broke flying a smaller plane at full capacity. (Yes you can of course, but it is a relative truism)
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
ncelhr
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 9):
Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 6):
1. It's an expensive aircraft, and most cannot afford it for the time being

I doubt 1 A380 is more expensive than 2 x 772. Especially if you take maintenance into account.

I was thinking more along the lines that currently US Legacy carriers do not currently have the cashflow to sustain such purchases.

That said, I am merely speaking of the situation *today*.

It looks like the US Airline Industry is recovering from its wounds so who knows how things will go next year?

I venture out to say that as soon as one legacy carrier opens the purchasing gates, all others will follow. Likely to be a lot of 787s, some A350s (as US Airways just demonstrated), and I would not rule out a few A380s, especially if as CuriousFlyer said:

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 21):
There are many congested airports in the US like JFK, LAX, SFO, ORD, ATL, where A380s would make a lot of sense. The Port Authority of NY and NJ is thinking of restricting access to its airports for smaller airplanes, and when they will have to do it, US airlines wil have to re-think their policy of small aircrafts.

But IMHO we might have to wait 5-8 years before such a purchase. Priority will go to purchasing 787s & A350s to replace the aging fleets of 762s & 763s. The situation in that respect is getting rather urgent for some...
 
Glareskin
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:39 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 26):
I think the 747 service ended in 2006, and since it where mainly 742s, I guess it was because of the retirement of the aircraft. Sometimes NW has four A330s sitting there at the same time, how useful is that?



Quoting Keesje (Reply 28):
A333 have lower casm then e.g. 744's. AMS-DTW are 3 full flight in the morning. If traffic keeps growing 5% per year perhaps they could combine 2 of the 4 flights in 7 years..

I really hope you guys are right. Is AMS ready for the 380? Or MSP / DTW?
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
UAL777UK
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):
Hasn't at least one 380 customer - Etihad - asked to defer their acquisition of 380's?

And VS!

I dont see UA or NW anytime in the near future, laying their hands on the 380, at best they will go for the 747-8. When UA do lay out there plans for fleet renewel of the widebody fleet in particular the issue of replacing the 747's IMHO those boys downtown at Boeing HQ are going to do all they can to bag that deal.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting Da man (Reply 1):
Most if not all US airlines have decided to focus on frequency instead of capacity

And European and Asian carriers have not? Note that it's not a question of will in many cases.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 5):
6. Competition with smaller aircraft and more frequency would kill whomever put a 380 on a route..

Very simplistic statement...

Quoting Paulcaz (Reply 8):
knew this would set the cat among the pigeons, but as someone said passengers don't want more aircraft the business man wants to fly in the morning fly out in the evening!

Quite hard on long haul routes...


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: US Airlines And The A380

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting Da man (Reply 1):
Most if not all US airlines have decided to focus on frequency instead of capacity, preferring to fly 2 777s instead of one 747/A380.

Most if not all does not describe United Airlines and Northwest Airlines Pacific networks. There are a number of NWA and UAL routes that do require the A380, if and when they would be committed to the investment. Remember as the years go on, so does come an increase in passenger demand. Prime routes for the NWA and UAL 380 program would be:

Northwest Airlines

AMS-BOM
MSP-AMS, MSP-NRT, MSP-PVG(If Granted Rights)
DTW-AMS, DTW-NRT, DTW-PVG(If Granted Rights), DTW-PEK(If Granted Rights)
NRT-LAX, NRT-HNL, NRT-HKG, NRT-PVG

United Airlines

IAD-PEK, IAD-LHR, IAD-FRA
ORD-HKG-SIN, ORD-NRT, ORD-PEK, ORD-LHR, ORD-FRA
SFO-HKG-SGN, SFO-NRT, SFO-FRA, SFO-LHR, SFO-PEK, SFO-PVG
LAX-HKG, LAX-NRT, LAX-SYD-MEL

Quoting Da man (Reply 1):
The only US airlines to currently operate the 747 are NW and UA, and they comprise only a relatively small part of their long-haul fleets with only 15 with NW and 30 at UA IIRC.

15 747-400's is a small part of the Northwest Airlines fleet?
30 747-400's is a small part of the United Airlines fleet?

The 747-400 is the backbone of both United Airlines and Northwest Airlines Pacific operations.

Quoting Da man (Reply 1):
I would expect NW and UA to not have a 1:1 replacement for their 747s, preferring to fly the 787 and A330s, but I could foresee a very limited small order of the 747-8I at both airlines.

You are forgetting that a number of the United Airlines and Northwest Airlines 747-400 destinations are slot restricted such as Heathrow, Narita, Peking, Shanghai.


-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
keesje
Posts: 8589
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: US Airlines And The A380

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:10 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):
Hasn't at least one 380 customer - Etihad - asked to defer their acquisition of 380's?

Nice pick. Didn't 3 A380 operators order additional ones tyhis week?

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 33):
So many US airlines got burned on the 747 30+ years ago I don't think the majority of them are ready to repeat that mistake.

UA and NW replaced their seventies 7747 with new ones in the eighties and nineties.

I think the fact air travel kind off trippled since the seventies might change considerations on the size of aircraft to.



And more importantly for the next 20 years a similar development is foreseen.



For airlines options are to loose marketshare, increase frequencies or buy bigger aircraft.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: US Airlines And The A380

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 36):
I dont see UA or NW anytime in the near future, laying their hands on the 380, at best they will go for the 747-8. When UA do lay out there plans for fleet renewel of the widebody fleet in particular the issue of replacing the 747's IMHO those boys downtown at Boeing HQ are going to do all they can to bag that deal.

Well judging from the 747-800 model, it doesn't seem as attractive to as many airlines as the A380. Funny as Airbus has bagged so many A380 orders, to the number of bagged orders for the 747-800. Perhaps the 747-800 is the lackluster attempt by Boeing who decided a while ago not to go with the people who said that airlines need size not frequency.

Airbus A380 ~ 174 (Double that of the 747-800 program)
Boeing 747-800 ~ 87 (50% less than the A380 program)

It can be deduced from he above orders that the A380 is selling at a faster rate, and in a higher bulk than the 747-800. Remember the 747-800 was Boeings attempt to capture airlines that wanted the A380. That attempt would seem not to have worked very well. Also, keep in mind that the airlines that have ordered the A380 are using those aircraft to be the flagship of their fleet. Emirates, Qantas, Lufthansa, Air France, and Virgin Atlantic among a score of other major airlines know the demand is in passenger numbers, not frequency. The way to eat away at your competitor is not in frequency it is in passenger numbers. The more seats an airline can offer, the less chance the competitor can offer their seats. It is a brilliant business move and is sure to make A380 the frequency breaker in a number of markets.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: US Airlines And The A380

Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 39):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):
Hasn't at least one 380 customer - Etihad - asked to defer their acquisition of 380's?

Nice pick. Didn't 3 A380 operators order additional ones tyhis week?

Yes, they did. But instead of avoiding my question, why can't you at least admit the possibility that some airlines may have made a mistake in deciding that the A380 is the right choice for them?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
SEPilot
Posts: 4913
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: US Airlines And The A380

Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 39):

I think the fact air travel kind off trippled since the seventies might change considerations on the size of aircraft to.

But this same time period has seen many airlines phasing out 747's in favor of smaller aircraft.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 40):

It can be deduced from he above orders that the A380 is selling at a faster rate, and in a higher bulk than the 747-800.

The A380 has been for sale for a lot longer than the 748; in the time that the 748 has been for sale it has outsold the A380; so your statement that the A380 is selling at a faster rate is flat out untrue.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: US Airlines And The A380

Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 42):
The A380 has been for sale for a lot longer than the 748; in the time that the 748 has been for sale it has outsold the A380; so your statement that the A380 is selling at a faster rate is flat out untrue.

How many 747-800 orders have been placed at Paris?

How many 787-300 orders have been placed at Paris?

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6512
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: US Airlines And The A380

Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 41):
But instead of avoiding my question, why can't you at least admit the possibility that some airlines may have made a mistake in deciding that the A380 is the right choice for them?

A deferral doesn't necessarily mean the aircraft wasn't the right choice, probably the timing is the real problem. In EY's case it's no surprise considering their current and planned network by 2013.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 42):
The A380 has been for sale for a lot longer than the 748; in the time that the 748 has been for sale it has outsold the A380; so your statement that the A380 is selling at a faster rate is flat out untrue.

The B747-8F has outsold the A380F because it will be a much more versatile freighter. In terms of pax aircraft sales, the A380 is clearly ahead. It doesn't matter for the manufacturers which model they sell, but it matters when judging the demand for a certain type.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
airtran717
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 am

RE: US Airlines And The A380

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 23):
Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 22):
How does that make sense? We won't buy a plane until the oil gets MORE expensive, costing us even more in operating costs???

Think about it, it DOES make sense...

The logic escapes me at the moment... why would it be economical to wait until oil costs even more per barrel... causing fuel costs to rise... even in the most economical jet or car in the world, more money to fill the tank still costs more money... the last time I checked anyway. The idea is to MAKE money and save money, not spend more of it unnecessarily.

... unless you plan to undermine the system and buy the planes and immediately file bankruptcy... not economical or smart.

717
 
airtran717
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 am

RE: US Airlines And The A380

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 44):
It doesn't matter for the manufacturers which model they sell, but it matters when judging the demand for a certain type.

Hit the nail right on the head. And to add my answer to another... A deferral doesn't necessarily mean the airline erred and decided they wanted to drop their order, though it makes it more of a possibility. But... perhaps their own internal projections don't match their deliveries and they want to take their's later in the production run, when the demand is more appropriate for the need... I mean there are just so many answers to this question. And no one knows except the execs at Etihad.
 
UnknownUser
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:02 am

RE: US Airlines And The A380

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 43):
How many 747-800 orders have been placed at Paris?

How many 787-300 orders have been placed at Paris?

You're point being....

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 42):
The A380 has been for sale for a lot longer than the 748; in the time that the 748 has been for sale it has outsold the A380; so your statement that the A380 is selling at a faster rate is flat out untrue.

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Die Skybus!!! You need to die for the good of the industry!
 
SEPilot
Posts: 4913
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: US Airlines And The A380

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 43):
How many 747-800 orders have been placed at Paris?

How many 787-300 orders have been placed at Paris?

What has that got to do with the price of potatoes? Paris was one week out of 52; nobody has been expecting any more 783 orders right now anyway. Airbus doesn't have a competitor for it, so what's the issue?
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: US Airlines And The A380

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting Da man (Reply 1):
Most if not all US airlines have decided to focus on frequency instead of capacity

And almost all US airlines have multiple hubs, with spreads out the network and reinforces the need for multiple flights. If sometimes adding frequency does not solve the problem due to restrictions on possible flyable times (and might be solved by putting a 380 in service), when 2 flights flying in the same time are leading to 2 differents cities, the A380 becomes rather useless....

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 3):
the rest don't go bigger than 777.

777-200 to be picky.
When I doubt... go running!

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