md94
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American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:55 am

I'm not an expert by any means, but it appears the gear doors are down but the gear is not. I wonder what happened, any ideas?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286233,00.html

Link to video and story from Boston: http://www.myfoxboston.com/myfox/pag...ayoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

Wow, that was a scary ride!!!  Wow!
72?, 732/3/7/8/9, 763/4, 772/3, 744, 787, MD88/90, F100, 319/20/21, E145/135/175/195, CRJ200/700, B206, 152/72/8
 
trekster
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:01 am

oh dear!!!

The gear door is open, would it not of come down though in that set of pics.

It may be gear problems, not an expert though
Where does the time go???
 
MidEx216
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:01 am

Uhh, check the title. That's a bit more than a tail strike...
 
CastleIsland
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:07 am

Not sure I'd call it a tail-strike, it appeared to be a normal flare (for an RJ), just without gear. We can speculate all we want, but it's not fair to blame anyone until the FDR is evaluated and the results made public. My opinion: it sure looks like the PIC forgot to call for gear down. Are mains and nose wheels operated independently on these AC? What are the odds of mains and nose gear not coming down with no indication (or their lack of recognition) to the pilot(s)?
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 3):
My opinion: it sure looks like the PIC forgot to call for gear down.

Maybe, but in the first pic, the nose gear doors are open. They are still open in the second pic. If they selected gear down at the last second, wouldn't the nose gear be visible partially in the second pic?

I wonder how the first touchdown sounded. Nails on a blackboard?

Someone needs to give the media a lesson about fuel dumping as well.
I love ASO!
 
777wt
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 4):
Maybe, but in the first pic, the nose gear doors are open. They are still open in the second pic. If they selected gear down at the last second, wouldn't the nose gear be visible partially in the second pic?

That seems to be a landing gear problem.

The nose doors are hydraulic operated. When gear down is commanded, the nose gear door opens first then the nose gear uplock box releases and the nose gear deploys.

The mains do have a door but they are attached to the main strut with rods and are hinged.

What I can see is the mains are unlocked but it's not coming down, the same goes for the nose gear.

Once all the gear is down and locked...all the prox switches for weight-off-wheels setup will agree and all green will show on the MFD.

There is a manual release handle for the landing gear located under the FO's left foot. Wonder if they did use that?
 
AeroVodochody
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:09 am

I guess the indicators in the cockpit said the gear was down and locked?
Try not to be jealous, we can't all be Czech.
 
westindian425
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:18 am

Wait a minute!! Isn't there an EGPWS on board? Unless it was MEL'd (that's the only think I can think of), that thing should have alerted the pilots of the problem long before they were close to the ground.
God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
 
SEAdomer787
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:24 pm

In the video clip, it appears that the flaps are not fully deployed when the plane finally does land safely (also appears to be faster than normal, which would support that). Perhaps a hydraulic problem? This seems to be more than just a "whoops! forgot the gear!" situation, especially considering the fact that the doors are open during the first landing attempt. Or at least I would hope so! Glad it ended well for the pax!
 
EMBQA
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:29 pm

Screams pilot error.....
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
AV8AJET
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
Screams pilot error.....

I don't agree with you at all...explain why??? The nose gear doors are open, are you qualified on the ERJ?
"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
 
EMBQA
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:15 pm

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 10):

I don't agree with you at all...explain why???

Because......

1) EGPWS would be screaming in their ears "Too low GEAR....Too Low GEAR.... Too low GEAR"
2) During the landing check list they are required to look at the gear indication and confirm 3 green down and locked

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 10):
are you qualified on the ERJ?

......actually yes I am. I'm not saying they forgot to put the gear down. I'm saying they tried to land when they did not know the condition for the landing gear.

[Edited 2007-06-23 06:20:13]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
ebs757
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:16 pm

"I couldn't understand why the gear doors were down other than someone forgot to put the gear down"

Aviation expert?
Viva la Vida
 
boeing767mech
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:48 pm

The gear indicator showed 3 green with the gear still in the hole. After flying around and cycling the gear handle the gear extended after dragging the belly and flaps.

The airplane was in the hanger on jacks were the NTSB and FAA witnessed the gear handle down,gear in the hole and 3 green on the indicator. I heard about it from the mechanics working the airplane.

I'll say the pilot earned his pay that day. He managed to get the plane back in the air after dragging the belly. Whom evers fault it was, Embrarer or the Prox Box manufacturer it could have been alot worse.

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
hmmmm...
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:00 pm

Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 13):
The airplane was in the hanger on jacks were the NTSB and FAA witnessed the gear handle down,gear in the hole and 3 green on the indicator. I heard about it from the mechanics working the airplane.

Of course, by the time the plane got to the hangar, that was the case. The question is, what was the condition of gear handle on approach.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
FCYTravis
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:11 pm

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 14):
Of course, by the time the plane got to the hangar, that was the case. The question is, what was the condition of gear handle on approach.

No, you missed the point of the post. According to this report, safety officials *recreated* the situation in the hangar, and apparently have found that the indicator lights on this particular aircraft show down and locked with the landing gear still stowed. Of course, that might not be the case - the report may or may not be true. We don't know.

I love how people always jump to convict the pilots of "pilot error" before anyone knows what the facts are. Let the investigators do their work.

Let's just admit that nobody knows what happened here, and we won't know until everything is dissected - the gear system, the aircraft computers, the cockpit voice recorder, the available photos/video and the flight data recorder.

[Edited 2007-06-23 15:23:46]
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
EMBQA
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:15 pm

Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 13):
The gear indicator showed 3 green with the gear still in the hole.

That I would like to see since the prox sensors all work independently of each other. The sensors and the targets must all make 'contact' for it to give a 3 green situation.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
flyinryan99
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:40 pm

NTSB Prelim:

Quote:
An American Eagle EMB-135, tail number N731BE, flight number 4539 initially landed with the gear up at Logan International Airport, Boston, Massachusetts. The crew reported that they had an indication that the gear was down and locked but right before touchdown, they noticed a landing gear lever disagree. They executed a go-around and mechanically lowered the landing gear. They were able to get the gear down and locked and got a visual confirmation that the gear was down. The flaps would not extend due to damage from contacting the runway on the intial landing, but the crew was able to successfully land the airplane. There were 37 passengers and 3 crew members on board. No injuries were reported. Eye witnesses to the first landing stated that they did not see the gear down on the approach.

What's a landing gear lever disagree?
 
A10WARTHOG
Posts: 200
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 17):
What's a landing gear lever disagree?

A EICAS message that tells you the gear lever position and gear position do not agree.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 16):
That I would like to see since the prox sensors all work independently of each other. The sensors and the targets must all make 'contact' for it to give a 3 green situation.

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe a bad LGEU

[Edited 2007-06-23 15:50:23]
 
777wt
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting SEAdomer787 (Reply 8):
In the video clip, it appears that the flaps are not fully deployed when the plane finally does land safely (also appears to be faster than normal, which would support that). Perhaps a hydraulic problem?

The flaps are powered by a electric motor driving torque tubes.

From what I'm reading, it seems like it's either the prox switches or the LGEU.
 
EMBQA
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:11 am

They may have put the gear handle down... as seen in photos, but the gear did not move....as noted by the disagree message
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
A10WARTHOG
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:21 am

Eagle also uses flap 22 deg landing, that is why you do not always see there flaps down all the way
 
hmmmm...
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 15):
I love how people always jump to convict the pilots of "pilot error" before anyone knows what the facts are. Let the investigators do their work.

I love how people always jump to defend the pilots of "pilot error" before anyone knows what the facts are. Let the forum do its work.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
buckfifty
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 11):
......actually yes I am. I'm not saying they forgot to put the gear down. I'm saying they tried to land when they did not know the condition for the landing gear.

So far, the reports suggests that they had three greens, and that the EGPWS did not go off. The only indication is the Gear Lever Position Disagree message, which means that they had put the gear lever down for the approach. Don't know what MEL items the aircraft was dispatched with. Why did the EGPWS not go off? Not sure how it works on the Embraer, but if they see three greens, that means the proximity switches should be sensing that the gear was in a downlocked position. Many sources on the web so far have verified that the aircraft was tested in the hangar, and that three greens were showing with the scenario as described above. Could it be a landing gear control unit malfunction? Who knows.

In any case, it was a good piece of piloting, going around in such a condition, and landing the aircraft safely again.
 
FCYTravis
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 22):
I love how people always jump to defend the pilots of "pilot error" before anyone knows what the facts are. Let the forum do its work.

Posters are attacking and defaming real people who have real lives, automatically blaming them for a near-crash without knowing anything beyond media speculation, rumors and innuendo. That's unnecessary, tabloidesque and uninformed. For shame.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
jenkingeorge
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:07 am

(not coming from an expert, far from it, LOL)

But looking at that the gear doors were open pretty early, however should there not be warning light in the cockpit if the gear wasn't locked, if this was the case should they have overflown the runway first? So i haven't really helped there, we can speculate all we like, but without the full information we will not know......

main thing is that eveyone is OK!

JG
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
 
md94
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:07 am

Anyone know if they had not manually drop the gear or did it work right the next time?
72?, 732/3/7/8/9, 763/4, 772/3, 744, 787, MD88/90, F100, 319/20/21, E145/135/175/195, CRJ200/700, B206, 152/72/8
 
drewwright
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
Screams pilot error.....

It is apparently a problem with the aircraft, not with the pilots. Embraer has advised E145 operators to use caution if this should happen again. The problem is rogue EICAS messages seem to pop up all the time, and if three green are indicated, i would be inclined to believe that, despite the contradictory message. How many times does the "spoiler fail" message pop up when it hasn't actually failed?
The problem was identified to be with the LGEU and all 145 pilots are being reminded to refer to the QRH if it happens again, which I would guess is exactly what the Eagle guys did when faced with this situation earlier. I say good for them for reacting so quickly because it could have turned out much worse.
 
snaiks
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:22 pm

well go to http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kbos/BOS-Twr-Jun-20-2007-1200Z.mp3 listen that min 20 and something is when they go around and 26 is when twr starts discussing with the AC'S on the ground to see what happened.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:01 pm

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 10):
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
Screams pilot error.....

I don't agree with you at all...explain why??? The nose gear doors are open, are you qualified on the ERJ?



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 11):
......actually yes I am. I'm not saying they forgot to put the gear down. I'm saying they tried to land when they did not know the condition for the landing gear.

I agree, this crew screwed up.

This does appear to be a problem with the airplane, too. But the crew should have caught the fact the gear did not extend. It appears they did not check the gear lights until they began the landing flair.

Does the ERJ have a "Bitching Betty"?

BTW, this was not a tail strike, it looks like they scrapped the center wing section, about where the lower anti-collision strobe light is.
 
Oykie
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:15 pm

On general if the wheels are not out and locked, there would not be three green lights to indicate that everything is okay. That way the two pilots should have radioed in a mayday call and make a visual flight in front of the control tower so they could visually see if something was wrong. So this have to be a pilot error. The pilots should have seen that they did not have the gears out prior to touching the runway. Maybe they new there was something wrong with the gear and try to see if they could fix it by hitting the runway, just like someone hits the car if it breaks down?

 duck 
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
okie73
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:22 am

it would seem to me if the gear was not out, the pilots should notice on approach that it was taking a lot less power and that there was a lot less noise. I can understand the gear being down, but not locked, despite the indications. I cannot understand the pilots missing the fact that the gear were still up no matter what the cockpit indications were.
 
A10WARTHOG
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
Does the ERJ have a "Bitching Betty"?

Yeah it does, I wanted to shut her up so many times doing max engine runs.

Here is the preliminary information:

NTSB Identification: DCA07FA050
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of AMERICAN EAGLE AIRLINES
Accident occurred Wednesday, June 20, 2007 in Logan, MA
Aircraft: Embraer 135, registration: N731BE
Injuries: 41 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

An American Eagle EMB-135, tail number N731BE, flight number 4539 initially landed with the gear up at Logan International Airport, Boston, Massachusetts. The crew reported that they had an indication that the gear was down and locked but right before touchdown, they noticed a landing gear lever disagree. They executed a go-around and mechanically lowered the landing gear. They were able to get the gear down and locked and got a visual confirmation that the gear was down. The flaps would not retract due to damage from contacting the runway on the intial landing, but the crew was able to successfully land the airplane. There were 37 passengers and 3 crew members on board. No injuries were reported. Eye witnesses to the first landing stated that they did not see the gear down on the approach.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

The thing that gets me, is that the landing gear lever disagree message is a warning message and I believe you can not cancel it. So if the message appear with no other aural warning or master warning light then there would be other problems. Seems like alot of problem at once, but stranger things have happened.
 
boeing767mech
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
Does the ERJ have a "Bitching Betty"?

Bitching Betty is part of the EGPWS and she goes off if your around 1500 feet with the gear not down and the power levers at flight idle. Since the aircraft indication show gear down and on glide slope and flight idle,flaps down Betty had nothing to bitch about. Landing gear disagree is a EICAS message we get from time to time on our AAirplanes (757/767)but we also have indication of the doors openning and closing. Since I wasn't in the cockpit I can't tell what the crew was doing, but the NTSB preliminary shows that Betty was getting all her information and had no reason to bitch. OR she was smacked up the side of the face with a pulled C/B like we do during engine runs.

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
zanl188
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:20 pm

************************************************************
NTSB ADVISORY
************************************************************

National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594
June 29, 2007

************************************************************

NTSB INVESTIGATING LANDING GEAR MALFUNCTION

************************************************************

Washington, D.C. - The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating an incident in Boston that occurred on June 20, 2007, in which an American Eagle Embraer ERJ-135 regional jet briefly touched down on the runway without the landing gear extended before initiating a go-around and completing a second landing attempt.

None of the 37 passengers or 3 crewmembers was injured. The aircraft sustained minor damage. The event is being investigated as an incident.

Prior to the first landing attempt in which the gear was not extended, the crew stated that the three landing gear indicator lights were all green, indicating that the gear was down and locked. Shortly before touchdown they noticed a "landing gear lever disagree" message on a flight computer console.

After the jet contacted the runway, a go-around procedure was initiated. The crew extended the gear by following the emergency abnormal landing gear procedure, then flew by the control tower twice for a visual inspection to ensure the gear was down prior to the second landing attempt.

At this point in the investigation the following has been accomplished:

In an initial test, the incident aircraft was placed on jacks and investigators duplicated the in-flight
situation: Three green lights in the cockpit indicated the gear was down and locked but none of the gear extended.

The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder were sent to the Safety Board's laboratory in Washington last week where the content of each is being evaluated.

Both members of the flight crew were interviewed this week.

An electronic component of the landing gear control system, made by Parker Aerospace, was bench tested this week at their facility in New York. The same unit, with small modifications, was then placed in a different airplane and the indications were once again duplicated.

Embraer issued a "Field Service Letter" late last week to all operators of the EMB-135, -140, and -145 models, reminding pilots to follow the checklist in the case of a "landing gear disagree" message.

The Federal Aviation Administration, Parker Aerospace, American Eagle and Embraer are working with the Safety Board as the investigation continues.

##

NTSB Press Contact: Peter Knudson
202-314-6100
peter.knudson@ntsb.gov
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
md94
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Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:23 am

RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:39 pm

Thanks for the update!
72?, 732/3/7/8/9, 763/4, 772/3, 744, 787, MD88/90, F100, 319/20/21, E145/135/175/195, CRJ200/700, B206, 152/72/8
 
higherflyer
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:14 am

RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:10 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 22):
Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 15):
I love how people always jump to convict the pilots of "pilot error" before anyone knows what the facts are. Let the investigators do their work.

I love how people always jump to defend the pilots of "pilot error" before anyone knows what the facts are. Let the forum do its work.

I love how people always jump to ANY determination of blame before any facts are known. Give the pilots of this one a break. Let the facts be determined before you get the flaming torches and pitchforks out and go after them.

And, how is the forum doing "its work"? What work is that? Pontification on a grand scale!?

By the way, I didn't realize that this forum was work. I am going to have to stop spending any time here if that is the case-- I already have a job.
 
alfa75
Posts: 488
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RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:18 am

Two questions.

1. Did the news outlet ever report the outcome of the investigation?

2. Can those planes perform a fuel dump? Correct me if I am wrong, (I am strictly a neophyte here) but I thought only larger planes had that capability.
The best things in life aren't things!
 
higherflyer
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:14 am

RE: American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS

Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:06 pm

Quoting Alfa75 (Reply 37):
Can those planes perform a fuel dump?

The EMB cannot dump fuel.

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