Boeingluvr
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No More Pets For AC

Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:02 am

Heard this morning on the radio that AC is no longer allowing pets checked in. They will have to go cargo. Not only no pets in cabin but now none checked. Looks like more business for WS. Most domestic routes people would rather fly the low cost carrier as paying for cargo can get rather pricey for pets!
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:51 am

I'm actually referring to checking pets under the A/C. AC banned pets in cabin some time ago. Now they are ridding checked in pets as well.
 
aminobwana
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:11 pm

If you move from Toronto to London, and assuming that all airlines do the same, how the pets would come along ??
Swimming ??
I am sure that if they do not retract, ten-thousands pet owner will not fly anymore with the already struggling AC, with or without their pets. A typical AC performance, i.e. act first, think later , precisely the cause of their woes.

aminobwana
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:18 pm

Well more business for WJ domestically, and more for BA INTL from major hubs.
 
AY104
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:23 pm

Wish I had kept the newspaper where I saw the article. It stated that this is for domestic only. Reason given was that the flights are so busy, they need all the space in the hold for baggage. It's fine by me. For the airlines to have to handle pets is just a pain in the butt. The amount of fuss and special handling, basically dedicating an agent from the ramp to come up to the counter and retrieve the dog and kennel. Then the animal has to wait in the baggage makeup area until loaded, with noisy equipment and aircraft, in a chaotic environment. Must be traumatic for the animals, regardless of whether they are tranquilized. At certain times of the year in hotter climates, eg Phoenix, checking in pets to and from those cities is prohibited because of the excessive heat. The airlines have been catering to travelers way to much for way too long, with accepting pets unaccompanied minors being another issue which I don't even want to get into here.

Quoting Boeingluvr (Thread starter):
Most domestic routes people would rather fly the low cost carrier as paying for cargo can get rather pricey for pets!

As a matter of fact, the last few times I have traveled, I have managed to get a lower fare on AC than on Westjet. For my upcoming trip to Montreal (from YVR), the lowest published fare for Air Canada and Westjet was $333.00 one way. I knew AC would eventually have some kind of a special offer, and I waited and got it for $249.00 one way. Meanwhile, Westjet was holding steady at $333.00. I have found this to be the norm. If Westjet wishes to continue accepting pets, they are most welcome to do so with my blessing.

Cheers,
AY104
The only thing a customer should expect for his/her loyalty is good service
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:40 pm

That's fine but when it calls for a cargo fee of $200.00 plus to ship the pet you're talking about saving $150.00 difference, once you pay $50.00 for the kennel with WS. So then you're still saving money with WS.
 
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 3):
I am sure that if they do not retract, ten-thousands pet owner will not fly anymore with the already struggling AC, with or without their pets. A typical AC performance, i.e. act first, think later , precisely the cause of their woes.

That is actually quite funny ... as AC is hardly "struggling".

"act first, think later" ????

Since when is making money a "woe"?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
AY104
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:24 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 3):
I am sure that if they do not retract, ten-thousands pet owner will not fly anymore with the already struggling AC, with or without their pets. A typical AC performance, i.e. act first, think later , precisely the cause of their woes.

As far as I am concerned, and probably also tens of thousands others, this is a good move by AC and a darned good reason to avoid Westjet and travel more on AC. I don't think that there is any reason for any airline to take on the added responsibility of having to transport pets. Period. Either in the cabin or in the cargo hold. These days it is tricky enough just to get the volume of travelers to their destinations, without having the added burden of caring for pets as well. I elaborated on this is my Reply 5 in this thread.

Cheers,
AY104
The only thing a customer should expect for his/her loyalty is good service
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:42 pm

One good reason for them is added revenue. I can see your reasons for not agreeing with high flight loads and such but I think for an airline it's better(since most of them still do this) to accept the increasde revenue of taking pets in the cargo hold as apposed to just saying no. Someone's gotta do it and with WS being the only carrier to do this now in domestic Canada then I can't see them stopping soon.

As far as the struggling remarks go I think that with AC charging for everything and the share price jumping up and down, as well as the recent bankruptcy protection they filed for kinda makes the public eye feel that they are struglling. Also was AC bought out a large portion by Deutche Bank who in fact is Germany so how Canada is Air Canada now? Just a couple of thoughts on the matter.
 
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longhauler
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:49 pm

This is AC's official announcement:

Change of policy on carriage of pets. To effectively handle the high volume of baggage loads and meet the needs of the vast majority of our passengers, effective July 15, 2007 pets will no longer be accepted as checked baggage on domestic flights, and, pending CTA approval, on international and transborder flights. Bookings already made will be honoured. It's important to note that accommodating oxygen circulation requirements for animals carried as checked baggage restricts the amount of luggage that can ultimately be carried on a flight, which can inconvenience other passengers when baggage needs to be offloaded.
Note: Customers wishing to transport pets have the option to do so through Air Canada Cargo, where the Cargo team has a specialized "live animal travel" program and is able to plan the best flights for pets to travel on. Further information can be found at http://www.aircanada.com/cargo/en/services/ac_live.html
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
robsawatsky
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:47 pm

Both Westjet and AC have had complete Pet embargoes in the past, although it sounds like this may be longer term for AC this time. If you are hoping Westjet, note the following:

"For safety reasons, WestJet cannot accept pets in checked luggage on domestic and transborder flights during portions of the Holiday season. Prior to December 11 there will be no restrictions. From December 11 – 14 and January 7 - 10 the cap for the SSR code AVIH (checked kennels) will be two per flight with none accepted in cargo. A full embargo will be in place on all flights from December 15 - January 6. No checked kennels will be accepted during these times with none accepted in cargo.

WestJet is unable to accept animals in checked baggage on flights to Phoenix, Palm Springs and Hawaii at any time of the year.

WestJet is unable to accept animals in checked baggage from May 1 to September 30 of each year to or from certain American destinations, again due to the possibility of extreme temperatures."
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:50 pm

Possibly that. It seems that the other dates are due to high flight loads and if u look will probably re-occur every year. Many sold out flights I'd imagine during this time so they need to regulate space very carefully.
 
AC_B777
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:47 am

I agree with AC on this. Too many people travelling without pets end up having their baggage bumped off flights due to animals in the cargo holds.
I am not against pets on flights, but there should at least be some restrictions for a pax travelling with a pet that the rest of their baggage travel on a space available rule.
Case in point, I was working in baggage assembly during the Christmas 2005 rush. We had an oversold A321 flight to YYZ with 9 containers of baggage planned and priority cargo and baggage planned for the bulkhold. I get a call from the ticket counter that a huge dog and kennel were on the way out. When it came through oversized baggage, I saw the total weight was 170lbs. The kennel took up about half a baggage cart. I called the load office to inform them of the large dog and its weight. The agent told me that due to its size, we were probably going to have to bump all cargo and baggage for the bulkhold for ventilation and a/c loading restrictions.
The kennel was so big that it did'nt fit in through the bulkhold door. The ramp guys had to put it through the rear main cargo door.
We ended up having to bump all the priority cargo and about 30-40 pieces of baggage due to this one dog. The pax travelling with the dog got their luggage at their destination, but many did'nt which ended up cost AC a nice dollar.
Now for you who think that AC is wrong, I wonder if you would be alright if your baggage was bumped of a flight due to a pet/pets travelling in the cargo hold. I would imagine you would be the first to bitch and complain.
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
AY104
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 12):
I agree with AC on this.

Thank You!
AY104
The only thing a customer should expect for his/her loyalty is good service
 
TheCol
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 11):

That's correct. The winter restrictions are put in place every year.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
I am sure that if they do not retract, ten-thousands pet owner will not fly anymore with the already struggling AC, with or without their pets. A typical AC performance, i.e. act first, think later , precisely the cause of their woes.

AC-B777 is correct. The restrictions on liquids etc. has really increased checked bags.

As far as the quote. Firstly, there aren't "tens- thousands owner(sic)" who fly with their pets on Air Canada. Secondly, the airline is accepting liability for a live animal. If the cage comes appart (some are rickety) and the animal gets loose on the tarmac there is chaos and many delayed flights. The live animal cargo is much more reliable and better off for the animal. They send multi-million dollar race horses this way. I saw some offloaded at Air Canada cargo at YYZ on Thursday. Thirdly, how do you define struggling?

I was on a flight last year where an animal in the hold was in some sort of distress. I think it turned out to be just the stress of it all as it was its first flight so the animal appeared to be ok when we landed in YYZ. However the flight was delayed because the ramp personnel took the time and care to have the passenger come and check her pet. Altogether about 20 minutes. Good service and probably the right thing to do, however a packed plane was held up costing a lot of money.
 
threepoint
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
already struggling AC

Learn first, type later. AC is not by any means struggling, unless you mean: "struggling to keep up with demand".

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
A typical AC performance, i.e. act first, think later , precisely the cause of their woes

Trust me, anything AC does now is a result of a lot of careful thought, planning and research. Not much done lightly these days.

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 12):
I wonder if you would be alright if your baggage was bumped of a flight due to a pet/pets travelling in the cargo hold. I would imagine you would be the first to bitch

Clever, but how do you know the large dog was female? Thanks, I'm playing here all week...
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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yowza
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
already struggling AC

Ummm struggling how? A little thinking before typing goes a long way.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
If you move from Toronto to London, and assuming that all airlines do the same, how the pets would come along ??
Swimming ??

FedEx, UPS, DHL and other specialist cargo companies.

YOWza
 
aussiestu
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 3):
and more for BA INTL from major hubs.

I dont think BA accepts animals at all now. Someone may be able to confirm
 
WestJetYQQ
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting Boeingluvr (Thread starter):
Looks like more business for WS.

Alright! Always good to see AC making a stupid mistake.  flamed 

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 3):
WJ

*WS  Wink

Cheers
Carson
Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:01 am

Haha I'm not too sure with the BA thing. Have to double check. I'm sure I've seen it before. Anyways regardless. Like I said people say AC is struggling or not doing well. Think back to the bankruptcy protection days and the Deutch Bank buyout thing and that's what people think of. I think a lot of people just resent AC a little because they charge for everything and customer service is... well let's face it... It could use some vast improvements! Sarcasm and rudeness shoudln't be accompanied with paying a full confirmed fare in any circumstance. Also as far as delays and cancellatinos are concerned with AC I believe they leave you int he words of many passangers "high and dry" no matter the delay you get no compensation and are put stand by on the next flight. No reconfimations. This is what I have been told!
 
lostturttle
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:23 am

Quoting Aussiestu (Reply 18):
I dont think BA accepts animals at all now. Someone may be able to confirm

Last year a next door neighbor wanted to bring two dwarf rabbits back home to Bermuda from the UK.....She found out the hard way that the policy had changed

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/pet/public/en_us

"When you want to transport your pet, you can rest assured that we will take the very best care of them. Pets must be booked to travel with British Airways World Cargo, and they will be carried in the aircraft hold."

She told me it would cost almost $900 for two bunnies worth about $50. The rabbits stayed in the UK!

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 12):
I agree with AC on this. Too many people travelling without pets end up having their baggage bumped off flights due to animals in the cargo holds.
I am not against pets on flights, but there should at least be some restrictions for a pax travelling with a pet that the rest of their baggage travel on a space available rule.

Great post , and so true. Though sometimes I still miss seeing those two little dogs in the carry on poking their heads out......
 
accargo
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:31 am

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 20):
Haha I'm not too sure with the BA thing. Have to double check. I'm sure I've seen it before. Anyways regardless. Like I said people say AC is struggling or not doing well. Think back to the bankruptcy protection days and the Deutch Bank buyout thing and that's what people think of. I think a lot of people just resent AC a little because they charge for everything and customer service is... well let's face it... It could use some vast improvements! Sarcasm and rudeness shoudln't be accompanied with paying a full confirmed fare in any circumstance. Also as far as delays and cancellatinos are concerned with AC I believe they leave you int he words of many passangers "high and dry" no matter the delay you get no compensation and are put stand by on the next flight. No reconfimations. This is what I have been told!

Your profile says you are a "pilot in training". If you ever hope to make it a career you might want to learn not to bite the hand that may feed you. Or are you limiting yourself to working for WS? Either way, make sure you let whomever interviews you know your feelings about AC. WS will love you for it and AC will know not to hire someone that doesn't have a clue.


Please disregard, I just had a look at some of your other pearls of wisdom.

[Edited 2007-06-24 03:34:22]
 
aminobwana
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:35 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 17):
Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
already struggling AC

Ummm struggling how? A little thinking before typing goes a long way.

Have you seen their balance sheet ?? But let skip this
Have you seen the passsenger comments ?? You can see one in Reply


Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
If you move from Toronto to London, and assuming that all airlines do the same, how the pets would come along ??
Swimming ??

FedEx, UPS, DHL and other specialist cargo companies

So, if you are going from lets say Albuquerque -Memphis -London-Plymouth (plus at least one other courier transhipment, aside to costing many hundred of dolllars, will probably not even be available, as the pet would need to be left in his cage for probably 72 hours and differently from checked passenger luggage, the owner will not have access to several transhipments points, neither to the shippimg and reception stations

Inside US-Canada, courier can transport pets as long as a 24 hour (?) delivery can be guaranteed!

Speaking of your unnecessary remark regarding thinking...

But I agree with other more courteous A-netters that airlines could and should refuse to carry pets if circumstances merit so, if overcrowding and similar. if I want that the pets fly with me, I must accept certain restriction regarding the selection of flights. But simplistic solutions as refusing alltogether to do it are not only inadequate, but can result in huge losses, if the Toronto Star get wind of it !! Again, think of this...

aminobwana

aminobwana
 
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mariner
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting AY104 (Reply 4):
The airlines have been catering to travelers way to much for way too long,

You're saying that the airlines should not cater to travellers?

Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 15):
If the cage comes appart (some are rickety) and the animal gets loose on the tarmac there is chaos and many delayed flights.

I'v flown my dogs all over the world - the latest being LAX-AKL - and the instructions about proper cages are exact and have to be met. If the cage is "rickety" why did the airline accept it?

It isn't cheap to fly animals - the "fare" for my two LAX-AKL was more for each than an economy class pax each - and the restrictions are arduous, but I accept them

I know the dogs cannot fly in certain temperatures or certain conditions, and I also know this creates a problem - and more money for the airlines - if they don't fly, for whatever reason.

I've had at least one case when I had to buy a whole new ticket, with no refund of my original ticket, because the dogs couldn't fly - a grumpy official somewhere decided it is "too close" to a prohibited temperature.

Mostly, the airlines have done a great job with my animals, perhaps better than some human passengers, but the airlines have done quite well - financially - out of me, too.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
lostturttle
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:59 am

My understanding of this new policy is that your pet will NOT fly on the same flight with you. It will go on a Cargo Filght. (Domestic travel) "With a load factor of over 80 per cent and tough post-9/11 security measures, Air Canada says more and more bags are being checked and it simply no longer has room for pets in the cargo holds."

If the approval is granted for international flights, one positive thing will be less bumped luggage, especially on those nasty "weight load balance days" I feel for the pet owners though, we have a few dog and cat shows throughout the year and only one cargo flight per day (mon - fri)

Bermuda's constant downgrading of aircraft size has really had an effect on baggage and regular cargo, looks like if you want your pet to travel with you in the hold you better pick a day when the loads are light! (Plan ahead with the friendly agents)
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:34 pm

Quoting Accargo From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 530 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted Sat Jun 23 2007 19:31:33 your local time (2 hours 58 minutes 44 secs ago) and read 106 times:


Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 20):
Haha I'm not too sure with the BA thing. Have to double check. I'm sure I've seen it before. Anyways regardless. Like I said people say AC is struggling or not doing well. Think back to the bankruptcy protection days and the Deutch Bank buyout thing and that's what people think of. I think a lot of people just resent AC a little because they charge for everything and customer service is... well let's face it... It could use some vast improvements! Sarcasm and rudeness shoudln't be accompanied with paying a full confirmed fare in any circumstance. Also as far as delays and cancellatinos are concerned with AC I believe they leave you int he words of many passangers "high and dry" no matter the delay you get no compensation and are put stand by on the next flight. No reconfimations. This is what I have been told!

Your profile says you are a "pilot in training". If you ever hope to make it a career you might want to learn not to bite the hand that may feed you. Or are you limiting yourself to working for WS? Either way, make sure you let whomever interviews you know your feelings about AC. WS will love you for it and AC will know not to hire someone that doesn't have a clue.


Please disregard, I just had a look at some of your other pearls of wisdom.



The thing is... I plan to fly in Europe. Also... Just because I have bad opinions of one airline and good of another doesn't mean that things wont change. When looking for a job as a pilot my personal resolutinos completly change. I'm there to do a job that I love and follow procedure. Basically... I don't mind as much how the airline runs itself as long as they're paying me to fly. Sorry to sound arrogant but I just keep personal feeling away from professional.
 
jwenting
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:22 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
If you move from Toronto to London, and assuming that all airlines do the same, how the pets would come along ??

They'd need to be quarantined anyway for quite a long time entering the UK so sending them some other way doesn't matter.
You can't pick them up on arrival, if you're lucky you can look at them through a glass wall for the first month or so in the quarantine center.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
I am sure that if they do not retract, ten-thousands pet owner will not fly anymore with the already struggling AC, with or without their pets

Could be simple mathematics. If the cost of carrying a pet is higher than the income it generates, it makes economic sense to not do it.
I wish I were flying
 
sebring
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:46 pm

Quoting WestJetYQQ (Reply 19):

Alright! Always good to see AC making a stupid mistake.   

When your baggage handlers have twice as many kennels to load, and turnaround times are being compromised, and fluffy escapes from its cage and its owners sue Westjet, let us know how you feel. If there is an airline stupid enough to be the carrier of last resort for every time of atypical passenger requirement, it will get all of the business from people with special needs.. a flying Lourdes...
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:52 pm

I agree. That's the problem with Airlines these days. Always looking out for themselves and not their passengers. That's exactly what I talk about when I talk about AC's bad customer service. They're there for you to serve them, that is why they are paying customers. Otherwise don't serve them but don't charge fares either!.
 
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mariner
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting Sebring (Reply 29):
and fluffy escapes from its cage

I'd love to know how "fluffy" escaped.

Every time my dogs have flown, the cages have been rigorously inspected, more than once, and on international, the cages have been sealed on the locks.

???

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:09 pm

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 31):
I agree. That's the problem with Airlines these days. Always looking out for themselves and not their passengers. That's exactly what I talk about when I talk about AC's bad customer service. They're there for you to serve them, that is why they are paying customers. Otherwise don't serve them but don't charge fares either!.

AC is no longer allowing pets to make sure they can better serve their other customers who are the vast majority versus passengers with pets. Why can't you guys see this?

Kris
 
AY104
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:21 pm

Quoting AY104 (Reply 4):
The airlines have been catering to travelers way to much for way too long, with accepting pets unaccompanied minors being another issue which I don't even want to get into here.

I'll quote my own text once again, since I am the "dude" who doesn't seem to wake up. What I get, is that they can no longer afford to offer the services of flying pets as baggage, because of the inconvenience it has caused other passengers. If you were told that you missed your connection, because the flight was delayed while the ground personnel were tending to a pet in distress, I think you would "wake up" pretty quick. Or if your luggage was delayed because a dog kennel was too large, and not all of the baggage could be accommodated on your flight, again you would "wake up" pretty quick. Quite often, it is not until incidents like these affect us personally that we really do come into touch with reality.
Cheers,
AY104
The only thing a customer should expect for his/her loyalty is good service
 
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mariner
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:39 pm

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 34):
Why can't you guys see this?

For several reasons:

(i) How is someone to get a search and rescue dog to Yukon or Northwest Territory in the winter?

Maybe there's a cargo flight leaving tomorrow, but there's a pax flight leaving today - but the dog can't travel on that.

(ii) If it extends to international, and if, say, Air NZ adopted the rule, there would be no way for a passenger with pets to get them from, say, the US or Canada to New Zealand.

Those pax who want to do it may be fewer in number, but you are happy to tell them to rack off?

(iii) I have paid handsomely to fly my dogs. I would be very, very surprised if the airlines in question lost money on the deal.

It's a bit more work for the staff? Charge me more, I'll pay. You have to unload other pax bags? Why - you've probably known about my booking for some time?

You can even tell me that my dogs (and thus I) can't travel - because you're full and there might not be room in the hold.

I've had that happen to me, too.

mariner
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MEACEDAR
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:00 pm

Quoting AY104 (Reply 4):
As a matter of fact, the last few times I have traveled, I have managed to get a lower fare on AC than on Westjet. For my upcoming trip to Montreal (from YVR), the lowest published fare for Air Canada and Westjet was $333.00 one way. I knew AC would eventually have some kind of a special offer, and I waited and got it for $249.00 one way. Meanwhile, Westjet was holding steady at $333.00. I have found this to be the norm. If Westjet wishes to continue accepting pets, they are most welcome to do so with my blessing.

Yeah, I have noticed too. I checked out Westjet's flight from MCO-YUL via YYZ roundtrip and it was around $600.00.

Then I saw a price that I thought I would never see, $279.47 with tax.

MCO-MIA-YUL with AA
YUL-PHL-MCO with US


By the way, why is it so expensive to flight within Canada. My mom wanted to see Niagara Falls from the Canadian side, which means you would have to fly in YYZ, then from YYZ to YUL, then from YUL-MCO. This was the cheapest flight I could find:

MCO-ORD-YYZ with UA
YYZ-YUL with AC
YUL-PHL-MCO with US

for around $650.00

So, then I thought maybe I could buy the MCO-MIA-YUL-PHL-MCO trip for $279.47 and then just buy a roundtrip ticket from YUL-YYZ. But that was around $300.00.

What's the deal? YUL-YYZ is the same distance between MCO-MIA, which I could by roundtrip for $150.00 easy.
 
Boeingluvr
Topic Author
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:06 pm

You can't tell me that this has nothing to do with money. Everything airlines do does. Say a bag is left behind because of a kennel. For AC that's 100 dollars plus made on the kennel versus the 11 dollars or something it costs an airline for a 100 dollar travel credit.( was told approx that's what it costs an airline per 100 dollar credit.)
 
fraT
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:13 pm

Mariner,
who said, that pets will end up on a cargo flight? Better where is it written?
The point is, that the handling is done by AC cargo and it's not longer possible to check in the pet with your bags.
So it should be still possible to travel on the same flight as your pet. AFAIK AC doesn't have cargo flights within Canada or transborder.

This thread again shows the negative image AC has with a lot of Canadians. It's often the same over here in Germany. Our national carrier (LH) also gets a lot of bad press just because they are so dominant.
Some guys made very logical posts regarding the problems with baggage and operation caused by checked animals. But these points are ignored by some others who just want to bash AC. That's how it looks to me.
 
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mariner
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:44 pm

Quoting FraT (Reply 39):
The point is, that the handling is done by AC cargo and it's not longer possible to check in the pet with your bags.

I understand that. However, in post #9 it gives the clear impression that they will be Cargo:

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 9):
Customers wishing to transport pets have the option to do so through Air Canada Cargo, where the Cargo team has a specialized "live animal travel" program and is able to plan the best flights for pets to travel on.

If that is not the case - if my dogs can travel on the same flight as me, when I need to go - Air Canada should make that very clear, because it isn't clear to me.

It says "transport pets". It does not say "travel with pets".

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
fraT
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:27 pm

But Cargo doesn't mean that it's a pure cargo flight. There is cargo carried on nearly all passenger flights.
 
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mariner
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:51 pm

Quoting FraT (Reply 41):
But Cargo doesn't mean that it's a pure cargo flight. There is cargo carried on nearly all passenger flights.

I understand that. It doesn't change the clear impression that the dogs (in my case) are treated and transported as cargo - and thus may be on any cargo flight, which may - or may not - also be a passenger flight.

I have flown my dogs separately from myself, but obviously, I have had to have someone at the other end organizing them and transporting them to/from the airport. In one case, I had to pay for someone to fly with the dogs.

It is a very complicated - and extremely expensive - business. After reading the Air Canada statement, they seem to be adding a level of complication that makes them unattractive to me as a carrier.

If the statement describes the situation inaccurately, then perhaps they should correct it.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
AC_B777
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:08 pm

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 31):
I agree. That's the problem with Airlines these days. Always looking out for themselves and not their passengers. That's exactly what I talk about when I talk about AC's bad customer service. They're there for you to serve them, that is why they are paying customers. Otherwise don't serve them but don't charge fares either!.

I'm not too sure you know what customer service is? So the 30-40 bags we bumped off a Christmas time flight to handle one pax dog was customer service to the dog owner, but the other pax who's bags arrived later, what do they think of customer service? THEY DID NOT GET THEIR BAGS!!!!
What happens when a dog gets out of the kennel and shits over other pax baggage which I and many other ramp rats have seen at least once? Who is responsible for the cleaning or replacing of that pax luggage? THE AIRLINE!!! Not the pet owner!
For other people who ask how can a dog get out of a kennel? It can happen. It is the owners responibility for the condition of the kennel, not the airlines. I have seen kennels turned away at check-in because of there condition, but some still make it.
I remember first when I got hired with AC, an RCMP German Shepherd got out of its aluminum kennel. Don't ask me how, but it did.
I do love dogs, but why should an airline take the responsibility of having to transport animals around, then be held accountable if other bags are bumped off a flight, or damaged or destroyed by someone elses pet?
Do any of you remember the picks of an AA 757 that had its cargo hold damaged by a pit bull? Do you think the pet owner was billed for that? What about the baggage it damaged?
I guess we all have our own opinions.
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
srbmod
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:59 pm

There are airlines in the US that have never allowed pets as checked baggage or cargo and only allow a small number of pets in the cabin.

I too have seen where an animal has managed to get out of its' kennel cage. Back when I was working for FL @ ATL, FL handled F9's flights (who allowed animals to be checked). One afternoon, the flight came in and one of the rampers went to open the forward cargo door (The forward bin was the only bin animals were allowed to be transported in.) and was met at the door by a rottweiler that had chewed through the kennel cage. He immediately closed the door and got the lead to go get one of the gate agents down who ended up escorting the owner down to help get the dog so they could unload the a/c.

There was another incident involving F9 here @ ATL back when FL was handling them. As I mentioned in the previous paragraph, animals were allowed to be put in only the front bin of their 733s (as it was the only hold that maintained a proper environment in which to transport animals). One day, the lead put an animal in the back bin even after being told by the rest of his crew that animals didn't go back there (This guy had just gotten promoted to a lead and got a bit more of an egotistical attitude and refused to listen to his guys. Plus he wanted to impress the supervisors by having his flights not take any delays on his end.). Long story short, the dog was nearly dead when it got to DEN because the back bin wasn't heated and had to be put down. Needless to say, FL ended up shelling out some  dollarsign  because of this (The guy should have been fired for that, but instead they demoted him.).

I've read and hear stories where animals get loose from their cages while in transport at an airport and some of those stories don't end on a happy note.

When I worked for EV, we handled animals on a regular basis (Except when DL put their embargo on in the Summer), and I really felt bad for these animals. There were some animals who didn't seem to mind, but there were others that were none too pleased about the situation. Nothing like a cat hissing and clawing at you through its' cage as you try to put it in the bin.

While this decision by AC may not be popular, it really does boil down to  dollarsign   dollarsign   dollarsign  I'm not sure what it currently costs the average airline, but having to deliver someone's left behind bag isn't cheap (I remember hearing back when I was with FL 8 years back that it typically cost the company well over $100 to send someone's delayed bag.) and could potentially cut into a route's profitability. By making passengers transport their animals via AC Cargo, those costs can cover the costs of getting left behind bags to the passengers.
 
accargo
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:07 pm

There is so much misinformation being posted here by folks that are just out to bash AC it is not even funny anymore.

Here is the process for transporting live on AC.

In the past a customer could show up at the ticket counter with their animal and ask to have it carried as baggage. They were supposed to call ahead and have a note put in their PNR but many times this was not the case. The customer would just show up and expect that all would be well. The ticket agent would try and ensure the kennel met requirements but were not always as knowledgeable about the forever changing rules. So at times there may be a kennel accepted that does not meet specs. That is how some kennels can open and the animals get loose. The passenger would be charged an "excess baggage fee" and the animal would be placed in the bulk hold of the acft.

This policy has now been stopped and passengers must use AC Cargo to ship live.

This process is as follows.

A customer calls and books a flight at least 24 to 48 hours before departure. An AC Live Specialist goes over all the regulations and requirements for transporting the pet to wherever and books space on the appropriate flight. On the day of the flight the customer goes to AC Cargo and the pet and kennel are inspected by someone that knows all the requirements and ensures that the kennel is a suitable size for the animal. (Various gov't and IATA regulatons must be followed in this regard)
The animal is planned on the flight in the bulk hold (space has already been allocated when the booking is made, you can't book a spot if there are going to be too many bags or other cargo) The animal is taken to the flight by a Station Attendant that only handles live shipment in an air conditioned (or heated) van just prior to departure to lessen the stress the animal is under (airport ramps are NOISY places). The ramp crew loads the animal securely in the bulk hold ensuring there is proper air movement around the kennel.

This is how AC wants live shipments to be handled now. It will reduce bumped baggage and is a easier process for AC from a logistics point of view.

Quoting WestJetYQQ (Reply 19):
Alright! Always good to see AC making a stupid mistake.

You might want to check out with your beloved WS because they make the same stupid mistake. At certain times of the year they have an embargo on live carried as excess baggage. If you are going to bash AC at least know what you are talking about.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
I'v flown my dogs all over the world - the latest being LAX-AKL - and the instructions about proper cages are exact and have to be met. If the cage is "rickety" why did the airline accept it?

Were you shipping them as "excess baggage" or did you make a booking with the cargo dept of the airline you were using? My guess would be the second route given your description of the process.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
I've had at least one case when I had to buy a whole new ticket, with no refund of my original ticket, because the dogs couldn't fly - a grumpy official somewhere decided it is "too close" to a prohibited temperature.

Those "grumpy officials" are following gov't and IATA regulations that are in place for the safety of the animals. If they had traveled and died due to heat exhaustion you would be screaming bloody murder at the airlines no doubt.

Quoting Lostturttle (Reply 25):
My understanding of this new policy is that your pet will NOT fly on the same flight with you.

Your understanding is incorrect. As long as you call enough in advance (or book your animal first and then yourself) there is no reason you can not travel on the same flight

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 27):
They'd need to be quarantined anyway for quite a long time entering the UK so sending them some other way doesn't matter.
You can't pick them up on arrival, if you're lucky you can look at them through a glass wall for the first month or so in the quarantine center.

Incorrect. The UK has a Travel Pet Scheme that allows pets to arrive without the need of quarantine. Vet inspection and signed documents must be provided and all kinds of forms filled out in advance to ensure the pet is healthy and free of rabies.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 30):

I'd love to know how "fluffy" escaped.

Every time my dogs have flown, the cages have been rigorously inspected, more than once, and on international, the cages have been sealed on the locks.

Inspected by Cargo employees that know the regs. Not by ticket agents that deal mainly with baggage. We always get calls from the ticket counter asking if the kennel is big enough, too big, etc. You wouldn't believe what some customers try to do to make sure fluffy doesn't cost them too much. (large dogs stuffed into small kennels, 4 cats in one small kennel, rickety old kennels that are held together with rope etc)

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 35):
You can't tell me that this has nothing to do with money. Everything airlines do does. Say a bag is left behind because of a kennel. For AC that's 100 dollars plus made on the kennel versus the 11 dollars or something it costs an airline for a 100 dollar travel credit.( was told approx that's what it costs an airline per 100 dollar credit.)

The more you post the more it shows how little you understand about the industry. Stop believing everything your told by your WS chums and start doing some research of your own and learn the facts.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 37):
If that is not the case - if my dogs can travel on the same flight as me, when I need to go - Air Canada should make that very clear, because it isn't clear to me.

When you call AC they will make it perfectly clear.

Change of policy on carriage of pets. To effectively handle the high volume of baggage loads and meet the needs of the vast majority of our passengers, effective July 15, 2007 pets will no longer be accepted as checked baggage on domestic flights, and, pending CTA approval, on international and transborder flights. Bookings already made will be honoured. It's important to note that accommodating oxygen circulation requirements for animals carried as checked baggage restricts the amount of luggage that can ultimately be carried on a flight, which can inconvenience other passengers when baggage needs to be offloaded.
Note: Customers wishing to transport pets have the option to do so through Air Canada Cargo, where the Cargo team has a specialized "live animal travel" program and is able to plan the best flights for pets to travel on. Further information can be found at http://www.aircanada.com/cargo/en/services/ac_live.html
 
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longhauler
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:31 pm

Thank you ACCargo for a well written explanation. Once again the introduction of fact will destroy a good argument.

Quoting FraT (Reply 36):
This thread again shows the negative image AC has with a lot of Canadians. It's often the same over here in Germany. Our national carrier (LH) also gets a lot of bad press just because they are so dominant.

I notice this a lot. In fact, AC has been the focus of bad press ever since the DC-4M2 North Star was introduced. I just shrug and put it down to the uninformed.

You mention LH, and it is funny, as LH is one of my favourite airlines. The flight is almost always on time, the aircraft is spotless and the operation is safe .... what else would one want ... yet often sadly lacking among a lot of airlines. Ironic that Germans hate LH as much as Canadians hate AC.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
lostturttle
Posts: 134
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting Accargo (Reply 42):
There is so much misinformation being posted here by folks that are just out to bash AC it is not even funny anymore.

Here is the process for transporting live on AC.

Thanks for the correction Accargo. I for one agree with the new policy Still though you will get those pax who will show up just in time for a flight with a 100 lb dog and get upset that "poor little fluffy" will have to go cargo.

That and the media need to get the story straight as well..........."Canada's largest airline announced Thursday that beginning July 15, dogs, cats and other animals will have to be shipped separately on cargo flights."

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/Top...2%2Fpet_ban_070622&showbyline=True
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:25 pm

I couldn't find a reference to it but last year there was a story that was covered by a lot of media about a prize winning poodle I believe, who got loose at Kennedy. I don't believe it was ever found.

Quoting FraT (Reply 36):
Some guys made very logical posts regarding the problems with baggage and operation caused by checked animals. But these points are ignored by some others who just want to bash AC. That's how it looks to me.



Quoting Accargo (Reply 42):
There is so much misinformation being posted here by folks that are just out to bash AC it is not even funny anymore.

Well said guys.

I am a customer not an airline employee. A seasoned traveler who until recently due to buying a business and traveling less, attained the upper levels of a couple of frequent flyer programs for airlines and hotel loyalty programs. I don't typically fly WestJet or Southwest because the joking and games onboard are not my style. I have my list of airlines that are consistantly poorer than the rest. I still choose Air Canada over many others. In my experience when a problem happens with an airline, how it is resolved depends in large part to how the customer handles it.
When I have a problem and an agent/flight attendant/employee is wrong about something I quietly speak to a supervisor and it is usually settled beyond my expectations. I don't choose to fly USAirways out of Toronto anymore but had amassed so many free first class upgrades due to various problems I could never use them all. The old adage of catching more flies with sugar than vinegar.
 
YYCowboy
Posts: 90
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
am sure that if they do not retract, ten-thousands pet owner will not fly anymore with the already struggling AC, with or without their pets. A typical AC performance, i.e. act first, think later , precisely the cause of their woes.

What planet are you from?

All this leads me to a sad story awhile ago. A passanger was transporting a "prized Rotweiller" for YYZ to YYC on Jetsgo. Upon arrival in Calgary, they found the poor thing had exploded, literally blew apart in its cage.
I don't recollect the rest of the story, however, to me it seems de pressureization was the cause. I have some questions for someone "in the know".
Is it possible for the baggage hold to de pressureize while the cabin remains secure? Were the passangers and aircraft in danger? Can the cockpit tell if there are issues in the hold? If so, why did they not dive and put down at the nearest airport?
Its hard to soar like an eagle when you're flying with turkeys
 
Boeingluvr
Topic Author
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RE: No More Pets For AC

Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:51 am

Quoting "AC_B777 From Canada, joined Aug 2000, 601 posts, RR: 5
Reply 40, posted Sun Jun 24 2007 05:08:28 your local time (5 hours 32 minutes 12 secs ago) and read 226 times:


Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 31):
I agree. That's the problem with Airlines these days. Always looking out for themselves and not their passengers. That's exactly what I talk about when I talk about AC's bad customer service. They're there for you to serve them, that is why they are paying customers. Otherwise don't serve them but don't charge fares either!.

I'm not too sure you know what customer service is? So the 30-40 bags we bumped off a Christmas time flight to handle one pax dog was customer service to the dog owner, but the other pax who's bags arrived later, what do they think of customer service? THEY DID NOT GET THEIR BAGS!!!!
What happens when a dog gets out of the kennel and shits over other pax baggage which I and many other ramp rats have seen at least once? Who is responsible for the cleaning or replacing of that pax luggage? THE AIRLINE!!! Not the pet owner!
For other people who ask how can a dog get out of a kennel? It can happen. It is the owners responibility for the condition of the kennel, not the airlines. I have seen kennels turned away at check-in because of there condition, but some still make it.
I remember first when I got hired with AC, an RCMP German Shepherd got out of its aluminum kennel. Don't ask me how, but it did.
I do love dogs, but why should an airline take the responsibility of having to transport animals around, then be held accountable if other bags are bumped off a flight, or damaged or destroyed by someone elses pet?
Do any of you remember the picks of an AA 757 that had its cargo hold damaged by a pit bull? Do you think the pet owner was billed for that? What about the baggage it damaged?
I guess we all have our own opinions."



So what kind of baggage handlers and load planners does AC have? Offloading 40 bags for one kennel? That doesn't sound logical... A kennel if large, may take up the space of 4 bags. Also if planned correctly the kennels should be put on the A/C in a way that they are not stacked with other bags. If you guys do that there then that doesn't sound smart and you're discouraging me from flying AC ever again. Maybe you needa new load plan strategy. Check in agents should be trained to the point where they know if he kennel is suitable it's not really that hard... Oh well there are still airlines doing it out there so obviously they have it right and AC just couldn't find a strategy that worked for them. One more thing I'm thinking... If the kennels can still go on pax sched flights but have to go cargo... So they're still on the A/C yet AC is charging more because it's cargo... Hmm sounds like a bit of a money grab to me! Oh ya... Great customer service... Like i said before it's all in the strategy of AC charging for blankets and pillows more money! The driving strategy of our wonderful national airline... Fly AC spend more money!
 
Boeingluvr
Topic Author
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:56 am

RE: No More Pets For AC

Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:02 am

Qutoing accargo "You might want to check out with your beloved WS because they make the same stupid mistake. At certain times of the year they have an embargo on live carried as excess baggage. If you are going to bash AC at least know what you are talking about."

The embargo is due to high flight loads in which case WS knows that it wouldn't be a good idea as more bags would miss flights...

Also You'd be surprised how much I know about the industry. I'm had many insights into airlines within Canada and the UK and a lot of friends working inside these airlines so I know a little bit about worldwide airline economics. You can believe what you want you also can't tell me this will not be more profitable for AC. They can charge twice as much at least now. Now I'm sure it'll be easier for their agents who already have lots to handle but with cargo rates it's going to cost a lot more. Bas more on size and weight instead of just one kennel... So bigger dog more money! Gotta love profits! All I'm saying is realty... When people are faced now with practically paying another fare for there pet for a domestic flight when they can wander over to WS and pay 50 each way for the pet even if it's a same day booking and hop on board. I can see a lot of people saying "Oh nevermind I'll just call Westjet".
 
sebring
Posts: 1321
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: No More Pets For AC

Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:24 am

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 48):
The embargo is due to high flight loads in which case WS knows that it wouldn't be a good idea as more bags would miss flights...Also You'd be surprised how much I know about the industry. I'm had many insights into airlines within Canada and the UK and a lot of friends working inside these airlines so I know a little bit about worldwide airline economics. You can believe what you want you also can't tell me this will not be more profitable for AC. They can charge twice as much at least now. Now I'm sure it'll be easier for their agents who already have lots to handle but with cargo rates it's going to cost a lot more. Bas more on size and weight instead of just one kennel... So bigger dog more money! Gotta love profits! All I'm saying is realty... When people are faced now with practically paying another fare for there pet for a domestic flight when they can wander over to WS and pay 50 each way for the pet even if it's a same day booking and hop on board. I can see a lot of people saying "Oh nevermind I'll just call Westjet".

If they have an embargo, it's hard to see how they can accommodate all of those people who will say, "Oh nevermind..." Conversely, if all the pet owners and gun owners and unaccommpanied minors and all those others aggrieved by various and sundry AC fees and embargos end up on WS, WS is going to get bogged down in kennels and red tape. Sooner or later, WS is going to say "Oh, nevermind...."