lincoln
Posts: 3133
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:22 pm

Endorsing Tickets

Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:09 am

In this thread: Northwest Planning Numerous Flight Cancellations (by Iowaman Jun 23 2007 in Civil Aviation)

The subject of endorsing tickets came up, and Northstarboy defined the practice as

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 29):
basically, if you have a passenger traveling on a nonrefundable ticket, another airline won't accept that ticket unless Northwest "signs it over" or gives the other airline permission to accept it. Normally, if the ticket is not signed over or "endorsed" and the other airline accepts it anyway, they won't be paid by Northwest for the value of the transportation they provided the passenger, so it would be in effect like they're carrying that passenger for free. What Northwest is asking the other airlines is to accept a nonrefundable ticket, without Northwest actually signing it over, with the promise that even though the ticket has not been signed over, they'll get paid

I noticed that specific mention is made to nonrefundable tickets, and this made me curious about how the practice may differ with full-fare, fully-refundable tickets.

For example, since virtually all of my business travel is booked in 'Y' class inventory (Y1, YH, YL, or Y26 being the most common farebasises), specifically because it is fully refundable and fully changable -- does this mean that in irregular operations I could take my ticket to another airline, if necessary, without it being endorsed?

Lincoln
(Starting a new thread since it isn't entirely on topic for the original thread)
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
tymnbalewne
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:06 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:29 am

If I recall correctly...a ticket can belong to two airlines:

-the carrier it's plated on, or issued against...(i.e. a "001" ticket number belongs to AA, "125"- British Airways, etc.) because that carrier is holding the money for the ticket,
-the carrier the individual coupon is closed to, "CX" in the carrier box means that particular coupon is closed to Cathay Pacific.

Either one of those two carriers can reissue, revalidate or endorse the ticket (or coupon) over to another carrier.

If the carrier box reads "YY" then that particular coupon can be accepted by any carrier operated on that route, (but no carrier is mandated to accept the coupon at face value).

A ticket that reads "NON ENDORSABLE" doesn't mean it's truly non-endorsable. That endorsement is a prompt to the agent to not endorse the ticket to another carrier. If carrier "A" properly endorses a non-endorsable ticket to carrier "B", carrier "B" can accept the ticket and get paid the value of the coupon. (similar to endorsing a cheque).

In times of disruption carrier "A" can arrange a blanket endorsement agreement with other carriers. That means the customer doesn't have to go to carrier "A" to get the ticket endorsed. Carrier "B" will get paid for accepting the ticket.

A full-fare ticket with a carrier listed in the carrier box on the ticket/coupon would need to have the coupon(s) endorsed as there's no guarantee that carrier "A" will give the money over to carrier "B" with out the endorsement of "A".

C.
Dewmanair...begins with Dew
 
AirNZ
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:03 pm

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:36 am

Quoting Lincoln (Thread starter):
does this mean that in irregular operations I could take my ticket to another airline, if necessary, without it being endorsed?

Only if an interline agreement is in place/exists between the two airlines concerned.
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RDUDDJI
Posts: 1760
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:00 am

Typically in the first line of endorsements it'll tell you what carriers it's normally (i.e. no airline A endorsement needed) valid on...
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hjulicher
Posts: 677
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:26 pm

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:43 pm

what are the ticket numbers for airlines?

Is NW 012?
LH 442
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:27 pm

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 4):
what are the ticket numbers for airlines?

Is NW 012?

Not sure if NW is 012 - some examples:

001 = AA
016 = UA (or was that US? I keep mixing them up...)
074 = KL
217 = TG
220 = LH
724 = LX

Haven't found a complete list on the internet as of yet, though I'm certain there is one. This code is used for accounting purposes, as it makes it easy to immediately recognize through whom the ticket was issued (i.e. which validating carrier - this is identical for airline- and travel-agent-issued tickets).

NW, for example, is not used at all in Europe - KL is used for ticketing NW tickets: the payment for the tickets is processed by KL and then passed on to NW.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Chiguire
Posts: 1848
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:11 pm

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:32 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 5):
NW, for example, is not used at all in Europe - KL is used for ticketing NW tickets: the payment for the tickets is processed by KL and then passed on to NW.

And the other way round in the US.....
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:48 pm

Quoting Chiguire (Reply 6):
Quoting Leskova (Reply 5):
NW, for example, is not used at all in Europe - KL is used for ticketing NW tickets: the payment for the tickets is processed by KL and then passed on to NW.

And the other way round in the US.....

See... it pays to read your own post before you post it...  Wink ... I had actually wanted to write something along the lines "NW is used for KL ticketing in North America"...  Smile ... at least I think I remember reading that NW is used in Canada and Mexico as well.

So... what's used in South America, Asia and Australia? Or are both present on those markets?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
BigOrange
Posts: 2291
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:20 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:07 pm

If you have a full Y ticket you don't need an endorsement, because it's totally interchangeable.

Why waste your company's money on full Y tickets though? Just buy a non-refundable ticket and you can change it (for a fee) and still be paying less.
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:06 pm

My Gawd, this used to be SOOO easy to do prior to deregulation. Once a ticket was endorsed it was like cash money to any other airline, irregardless of the fare basis. Since fares were regulated, on similar route segments there was no price differential.

Your continuing flight on American is delayed? Get an endorsement and jump on the next Delta flight to your destination. American would even handle the reservation and seat assignment on Delta and the whole process took about 30 seconds. Get a sticker and get there quicker.

If your original ticket was on a single class flight, the line accepting your endorsement was required to book you as a First Class passenger. Enjoy!
 
AirNZ
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:03 pm

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 8):
If you have a full Y ticket you don't need an endorsement, because it's totally interchangeable.

Sorry, but it certainly is not!
A full Y ticket is fully refundable and fully changeable with the airline it was purchased from certainly........but not necessarily with any other airline, nor does it in no way mean it can be used at will on any airline of your choice. For one airline to accept another airline's tickets there must be an interline agreement between the two.
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AIR757200
Posts: 1466
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 8:30 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting Lincoln (Thread starter):
does this mean that in irregular operations I could take my ticket to another airline, if necessary, without it being endorsed?

It will ultimately be up to the receiving carrier to accept a unrestricted ticket (full fare). If the receiving carrier is full and you just walk up with your Y26 ticket, they can turn you away. In some cases, the receiving carrier can accept the ticket and charge you the difference between your Y26 fare and the receiving carrier's Y26 equivalent fare. Don't be surprised if they say you owe an additional amount.
 
tymnbalewne
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:06 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:36 pm

Quoting Lincoln (Thread starter):
For example, since virtually all of my business travel is booked in 'Y' class inventory (Y1, YH, YL, or Y26 being the most common farebasises), specifically because it is fully refundable and fully changable -- does this mean that in irregular operations I could take my ticket to another airline, if necessary, without it being endorsed?



Quoting AIR757200 (Reply 11):
It will ultimately be up to the receiving carrier to accept a unrestricted ticket (full fare). If the receiving carrier is full and you just walk up with your Y26 ticket, they can turn you away. In some cases, the receiving carrier can accept the ticket and charge you the difference between your Y26 fare and the receiving carrier's Y26 equivalent fare. Don't be surprised if they say you owe an additional amount.

The receiving carrier isn't guaranteed to get paid by the issuing carrier without an endorsement. The fare and fare type are independent of endorsements.

C.
Dewmanair...begins with Dew
 
AIR757200
Posts: 1466
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 8:30 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 12):
receiving carrier isn't guaranteed to get paid by the issuing carrier without an endorsement.

An endorsement is not needed if the airlines have an existing agreement, in terms of US legacy airlines, (US/AA/NW/UA/CO/DL) will accept each others full fare/unrestricted tickets and will be paid.

Non-refundable fares require endorsements and may not be paid without one, now that US legacies are using E-ticketing INVOL, it's easier now for endorsements.. setting the "INVOL" indicator to the affected electronic coupons is all that is needed.

Back to refundable fares: A passenger with a UA refundable ticket, normally without a ticket designator attached to the fare basis code and without "NON-END" in the endorsement box can walk over to AA and fly on AA given that the fare is available. We do it all the time, we can even reissue UA's ticket to a 001/AA ticket stock reflecting our fare basis equivalent.
 
AIR757200
Posts: 1466
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 8:30 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:21 am

Also, you normally do not see "NONEND" on US domestic tickets as "NONREF" is the term used. However, sometimes, NONREF isn't included even though it is, therefore the agent must research the fare basis to determine if it is a non-refundable fare. (Clues: SA7DNR, NA14DNR, G050NR.. the numbers 3, 7, 14, 21, etc. and letters "NR" indicate non-refundable advance purchase fares, which will require the "INVOL" indicator as I mentioned before or a rule-over endorsement).

Tickets issued outside the US or involve multiple international airlines and/or segments normally use the term: NONEND in the endorsement box.
 
hawaiian717
Posts: 3141
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 5):
016 = UA (or was that US? I keep mixing them up...)

016 is indeed UA. US is 037.
 
lincoln
Posts: 3133
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:22 pm

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:13 am

Thanks for all of the replies, it's adding some clarity to something I've always been a little flggy about.

Quoting AIR757200 (Reply 14):
Also, you normally do not see "NONEND" on US domestic tickets as "NONREF" is the term used. However, sometimes, NONREF isn't included even though it is, therefore the agent must research

On my leasure travel I'm used to seeing endorsements like

-/-NONREF/0VALAFTDEP/CHGFEE-/-

On my business travel, the endorsement I see most often is

-/-REFUNDABLE-/-

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
FI642
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:48 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:38 am

NW/KL have a blanket endorsement, meaning they can essentially do as they please with each
others tickets.

If an endorsement is required for an off line carrier, a TTY message can be sent to ask for
an endorsement. Most carriers have a "shell" that can be filled out and sent.

Things used to be so easy. Not any more.
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azstar
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:25 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:53 am

Endorsements are normally required only for international flights/carriers. Domestics carriers on domestic routes will get paid through the clearing house regardless of whether the ticket is marked "non endorsable" or not. If you have lifted the coupon of another carrier for transportation on your carrier, you will get paid. There is a FIM (flight interruption manifest)
rate which is 12% of the full Y fare (by agreement between carriers), and that's the rate that's applied if the ticket is "invol" for involuntary rerouting, or a zero fare mileage award ticket.

[Edited 2007-06-25 00:54:48]

[Edited 2007-06-25 00:57:30]
 
tymnbalewne
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:06 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:10 am

Quoting AIR757200 (Reply 13):

An endorsement is not needed if the airlines have an existing agreement, in terms of US legacy airlines, (US/AA/NW/UA/CO/DL) will accept each others full fare/unrestricted tickets and will be paid.

Thanks for this. My experience is with international ticketing/airlines.

C.
Dewmanair...begins with Dew
 
lincoln
Posts: 3133
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:22 pm

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting Azstar (Reply 18):
There is a FIM (flight interruption manifest)
rate which is 12% of the full Y fare (by agreement between carriers), and that's the rate that's applied if the ticket is "invol" for involuntary rerouting, or a zero fare mileage award ticket.

Just because this is a question I've often wondered about... Earlier this year, I was booked to fly CLE-RDU-CLE on CO (actually ExpressJet); the outbound flight was overbooked and I took the bump. CO sent me instead CLE-PIT on COEx, then PIT-RDU on US... Am I understanding correctly, then, that CO paid US 12% of whatever the full 'Y' PIT-RDU fare was for transporting me? (I never thought it was free, but I have never found what the cost of doing this is) --- and how did they wind up with 12?

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
A330300
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:06 pm

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:29 am

Here's a guide we use at Frontier when ticketing gets a bit confusing...(OA is "other airline")

Rule 120.20 – (Face Value)
Endorsement
There is no change of routing and the original flight coupon is accepted by OA.
Passenger uses same ticket flight coupon(s).
Accepting airline receives face value of coupon.
Coupon is endorsed to other airline. Write “Rule 120.20 F9 TO OA” in a blank area of the flight coupon.

Rule 240 (Involuntary Reroute)
Automated Reissue
When the origin or destination has changed or the original flight coupon(s) is not accepted by OA.
Accepting airline receives an agreed percentage of Y fare.
Original flight coupon is exchanged. New ticket displays “INVOL” as segment status.

Manual FIM (Flight Interruption Manifest)
Manual Reissue
When the origin or destination has changed or the original flight coupon(s) is not accepted by OA.
Accepting airline receives an agreed percentage of Y fare.
Passenger receives handwritten FIM flight coupon(s).
Passenger exchanges original flight coupon for FIM.

An automated reissue (Rule240) is preferred over a manual FIM.

[Edited 2007-06-25 02:29:57]
 
GuyBetsy1
Posts: 810
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:00 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:28 pm

If you know that something is going on with NW, then WHY keep booking on with NW?
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:31 pm

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 20):
(I never thought it was free, but I have never found what the cost of doing this is) --- and how did they wind up with 12?

There is no fixed percentage. Every airline pair has a bilaterally agreed level that they apply for cases like this.
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greenair727
Posts: 613
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:49 am

Let's say I had a ticket from Airline A in Class X (not first) and paid $100. Airline A canceled the flight and endorsed my ticket over to Airline B. Would Airline A pay Airline B $100 or would it pay Airline B what airline B would charge a walkup customer for that seat, which could be $500?
 
azstar
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:25 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:21 am

Quoting Greenair727 (Reply 24):
Let's say I had a ticket from Airline A in Class X (not first) and paid $100. Airline A canceled the flight and endorsed my ticket over to Airline B. Would Airline A pay Airline B $100 or would it pay Airline B what airline B would charge a walkup customer for that seat, which could be $500

An airline can actually make money from a cancelled flight. If the passenger paid a low fare, it might be better to "rule" the ticket to another airline (120.20) so the receiving airline gets face value. However, if the passenger paid a high fare, it might be better for the cancelled airline to "invol" the passenger, which requires issuing a FIM, or reissuing the ticket. That way they pay the agreed percentage of the Y fare which might be considerably less than the ticketed fare.

[Edited 2007-06-25 18:22:58]

[Edited 2007-06-25 18:24:33]
 
Virginia
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 5:05 am

RE: Endorsing Tickets

Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting Greenair727 (Reply 24):

No, airlines have special fares for that (called SPA fares if IIRC).

Quoting A330300 (Reply 21):

Very good example how it works with Frontier, tks.


This how we are doing it within the Star Alliance group (LOT, LX, TP, OU) and between Oneworld (IB & AY) in Amsterdam that my company is doing the ticketing for.

When flight is delayed or whatever reason we always try to exchange the tickets electronically, if you are able to exchange the ticket you automatically get your endorsement with any airline automatically (except IT or BT fares you do need endorsement for from the issuing carrier) when there is an agreement with.

With(in) the Star Alliance group this is not necessary (EWA Endorsement Waiver Agreement), if your route is e.g. Ams-Zrh-Tyo and flight is cancelled and LH or SK has seats available, the only thing we have to do is to make a new reservation on LH or SK for the routing Ams-Fra-Hkg or Ams-Cph-Tyo and LH or even SK will accept the pax (cause routing is the same).
We put Etkt on paper cpn and will sent pax to check-in counter of LH or SK, if already behind customs we inform the airline and they check these pax at the gate, and we take care of the luggage, that's it, so simple.

Quoting FI642 (Reply 17):

This agreement is within the Skyteam, but not always implemented correctly (because every one tries to keep his pax on his airline).

for e.g. if pax misses his flight with OU (croatian airlines) to ZAD because flight was of NW was late upon arrival, and cpn Ams-Zag-Zad is operated by OU (also shown in carrier box), OU can reissue this pax to his final destination without endorsement from NW (even when stock is 012 NW ticket).

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 23):

Correct, EWA (endorsement waiver agreement) we call this and is favour for both airlines for e.g. AY and KL on the route AMS-HEL v.v. or AMS-WAW between LOT & KL, if something goes wrong (weather, tecnicall or misconnex) they will accept each other pax because of these agreement, and they will settle these things at the end of the calendar year.

Best regards

Virgina

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