B6ramprat
Topic Author
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Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:18 am

Just found this article online. I can't believe these people were even able to sit that long on such a small aircraft. With that said I give props to the passenger thats in the story that did something about the situation and was happy to see that the Port Authority and the TSA were so cool with him. Is it just me, or is situations like this happening now more then ever?


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/26/bu....html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
Racecar spelled backwards spells Racecar
 
Analog
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:59 am

I haven't watched the video (wouldn't load), but from the article it seems the pilot tried to punish the person taking the video for questioning his imprisionment (pardon the hyperbole).

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
I can't believe these people were even able to sit that long on such a small aircraft.

There was no AC. Gotta love the supposed FA who blames pax for doing things like drinking water (thus making lines for restrooms longer).

From the article:

Quote:
police responded twice to the plane --- once to "evaluate" a sick teenager and a few hours later to deal with a report of a possible disruptive passenger (that would be Mr. Ollila).


Clearly it was possible to get people on/off the aircraft.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
Just found this article online. I can't believe these people were even able to sit that long on such a small aircraft

This is becoming almost common place there has to be changes made to the way in which airlines are doing their business. Events likes this are only making an already once regarded industry seem even more of a joke. This aircraft was at JFK. There is plenty of space to remote park the aircraft and bus the passengers back to the terminal until this problem is resolved. Just disgusting.. That this is an accepted business practice in the USA.

Delta Air Lines is to blame for this. I have supported Delta in the past, however this is the sole responsibility of Delta Air Lines. They contract out the flying to another carrier. That carrier in turn does not deliver the product, or botches the product and image of Delta up. This is a disgusting abuse of passengers and a horrible mark on Delta Air Lines.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
B6ramprat
Topic Author
Posts: 62
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:25 am

Without getting too detailed, people where sick and throwing up. Babies were onboard crying. The pilots have to grow a pair of balls and step up. Its there aircraft and there responsiblity of the safety of the passangers. As I'm sure all of you know that my company has had its share of problems with this but we learned. This needs to stop before god for bid someone has a heart attack and dies on one of theses flights. It could happen, especially with the elderly. I take alot of pride in the industry that I work in and reading things like this even if its another airline bothers me greatly.
Racecar spelled backwards spells Racecar
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting B6ramprat (Reply 3):
I take alot of pride in the industry that I work in and reading things like this even if its another airline bothers me greatly.

100% Agreed.. This only goes to make the US airline industry look even worse.. Instead or worrying about War, Congress should be putting measures into place to resolve issues like this from happening again and again.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
panamair
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 2):
There is plenty of space to remote park the aircraft

Where?
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 2):
They contract out the flying to another carrier.

A carrier that they own. So, that means that they are sub-contracting out to themselves.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
FFlyer
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 4):
Instead or worrying about War,

Really?????!!! I still think "worrying" about war is a more urgent and important matter - and the war has to end. These two things, of course, can be done at the same time. But the war is a more important matter.
 
richierich
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 6):
A carrier that they own. So, that means that they are sub-contracting out to themselves.

Either way, its Delta's fault!!
Well, I'm not pointing fingers at DL because it seems that every major carrier has had a horror story or two over the last 6 months. Its more a symptom of the situation that our airports face every day (especially during hot, humid summer days). As sad as it is, I suspect that there will be several more by the time September gets here... spin the wheel and lets see which lucky airline gets the next notorious delay.....!

It's shaping up to be a rough year for the industry.
None shall pass!!!!
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
I give props to the passenger

I don't. You have NO right to walk up and demand to speak with the captain, then make a demand to get off that aircraft. People know damn well that they can't approach the cockpit, especially in New York City. If you have something to say, that is what the flight attendant is for. Did someone drop the ball here? Yes, I do agree with you folks that Comair really screwed the pooch and that aircraft should've found a remote stand to park at and deplane the passengers. But for someone to basically barge into the cockpit, whether the door was open or not, whether he was actually standing in the cockpit or not, and "interview" the PIC...well...he got what he deserved when the police pulled him off the aircraft.

Oh, and since the video finally worked...

"They threatened us with security situations if anyone tries to get off the plane..."

Well no sh*t, Sherlock.  Yeah sure

A bad, avoidable situation? Yes. But for someone to do what this guy did? Completely unacceptable.

Situations like this are seeming to become a bit more common place, which isn't a good thing. Trust me, I get an ear full at work way out here in BFE Montana when flights get delayed, canceled, etc. But passengers need to remember to try and pack some common sense in their carry-ons, because over the last few years, common sense is something everyone seems to be forgetting at home more and more often...
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
spacecadet
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 5):
Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 2):
There is plenty of space to remote park the aircraft

Where?

It's a CRJ. Plenty of places they could park it at JFK. Here, for example: http://tinyurl.com/37aa84

They clearly were able to board people hours before the passengers got off, so it sounds like they were already parked somewhere safe for deboarding.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
Analog
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 9):
You have NO right to walk up and demand to speak with the captain, then make a demand to get off that aircraft.

How many hours do you have to endure with hot air, vomiting pax, etc. etc. before it's okay to demand to be released? Why can't you demand to speak to the captain & demand to be let off (in this situation)?

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 9):
But for someone to basically barge into the cockpit,

I thought he never entered the cockpit.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 9):
whether the door was open or not, whether he was actually standing in the cockpit or not, and "interview" the PIC...well...he got what he deserved when the police pulled him off the aircraft.

Why can't someone question the captain on his abysmal treatment of the pax? Yes, the captain's treatment. The captain is the one who is responsible for the passengers, and, in the end, he/she is the final authority on the aircraft.
 
jfk69
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:31 am

It's not as if they were the only aircraft sitting that night. I was stuck on the B6 JFK-SEA that night and from the time I boarded until we took off was more than 4 hours. The fact that they had no A/C should be the big issue and the aircraft should not have left the gate.
 
UN_B732
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:33 am

4 hours for a thundery night at JFK happens to a lot of planes - this one just got attention.

Last week, an Aeroflot flight spent 6 hours waiting for takeoff before giving up.

-A

EDIT: The jetBlue flyer is right - there was no A/C, and that certainly makes it much worse. Comair shouldn't have dispatched the thing, especially knowing JFK was avering 180 minute delays.

[Edited 2007-06-26 19:38:21]
What now?
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting Analog (Reply 11):
Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 9):
But for someone to basically barge into the cockpit,

I thought he never entered the cockpit.

Ok...let's nitpick here.  Yeah sure Even you quoted in the same sentence where I said whether he was standing in the cockpit or not... If you have ever looked at a CRJ cockpit, the seatbacks are right up against the bulkhead. To stand right outside the door is to be basically in the cockpit. I'm sorry, but the passenger shouldn't be there, no if's or but's. If the captain agrees to talk, it shouldn't be in the cockpit. The passenger bullied his way, and that's why he got interviewed. And believe you me, this will follow him for the rest of his life. Wouldn't surprise me if TSA has already listed his name on one of their lists...

Quoting Analog (Reply 11):
Why can't you demand to speak to the captain & demand to be let off (in this situation)?

Sure, you can make a demand. With the Flight Attendant. Then if the captain agrees to chat, it's his call. Not yours. Regardless. End of story. Yes the situation sounded horrible onboard, but again, these people payed to be transported somewhere, and that was what the Captain was trying to do. The situation deteriorated, a passenger pushed his way, and forced the Captain into scrubbing the flight. Not because people were ill, but because a passenger forced the Captain to call the police to remove this guy.

Now I'm getting a bit confused here. Maybe I'm coming off the wrong way. I'm not saying the flt should've been canceled long before, and I'm not saying it was a horrible situation on board, worsened by no AC. What I am saying is this passenger (because we must be polite) basically breached the cockpit, tried to bully the captain into doing what he wanted, and forced said captain to call the police. This guy deserved more than what he got from the cops and TSA.
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
ULMFlyer
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 13):
4 hours for a thundery night at JFK happens to a lot of planes - this one just got attention.

Except for the air conditioning being broken, and then I think passengers should be deplaned, there's not much else that could have been done.

I flew out of EWR to TXL that exact same night and time and I can tell you that the thunderstorms were pretty bad. At one point, the winds were strong enough to make the captain come on the PA and say that it was ok that the 752 was rocking, but we should be seated. Overall, we sat for close to 5h, though thankfully with the APU running the packs.

We even had to return to the gate after about 3h to deplane a couple of passengers who were feeling ill. But the captain was really nice to them, gave us constant updates and despite my uninformed apprehension, we did not lose our place in the takeoff line (~15th). I asked an FA if there was a risk of the crew timing out, but she said they were fresh and the captain gave us a 99% chance of going.

Overall, I thought it was good, as I got to do some work and then by taking off around 11PM, to get some sleep which would have been impossible with a 6PM departure. But I felt really sorry for the hundreds of pax stranded in those little CO Express ERJs all over EWR.
Let's go Pens!
 
OB1504
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 9):
Situations like this are seeming to become a bit more common place, which isn't a good thing. Trust me, I get an ear full at work way out here in BFE Montana when flights get delayed, canceled, etc. But passengers need to remember to try and pack some common sense in their carry-ons, because over the last few years, common sense is something everyone seems to be forgetting at home more and more often...

IMHO, common sense when trapped on a CRJ with no air conditioning, passengers vomiting, and babies crying for four hours is to try to and do something about it. That's exactly what this passenger did: He went up to the captain (who, as previously stated, has final authority over the aircraft) and asked him what was going on.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 14):
This guy deserved more than what he got from the cops and TSA.

He didn't get anything from the cops and TSA! They didn't press charges, and he even stayed with them a little longer to give a demonstration of his camera technology.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 14):
The situation deteriorated, a passenger pushed his way, and forced the Captain into scrubbing the flight. Not because people were ill, but because a passenger forced the Captain to call the police to remove this guy.

I'll agree with you that it is wrong for a passenger to run up to the cockpit and speak to the Captain. However, how long should passengers have to wait for the Captain (and Comair) to use some common sense and scrub the flight? Do they have to wait till someone vomits? Passes out? Heart attack? It shouldn't have to reach that level in order to get a flight crew to use their brains and do something.

While the pilot is the one in command and has the final word, there comes a point when something must be done if the pilot's behavior is jeopardizing the health and safety of the passengers.
 
panamair
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 10):
It's a CRJ. Plenty of places they could park it at JFK. Here, for example: http://tinyurl.com/37aa84

They clearly were able to board people hours before the passengers got off, so it sounds like they were already parked somewhere safe for deboarding.

I'm not excusing the Captain's behavior in this case...though it's not clear where the plane was this whole time....was it already in the t/o queue? Was it sitting back near Terminal 2? If it was already out in the queue or caught somewhere out in a congested ramp where it was difficult or nearly impossible to turn off into a separate area, etc. If that CRJ is in a queue of about 40-50 planes, it is not as easy to even move and find a spot to leave the queue and head back to the terminal....
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:56 am

The moral of the story here is to never connect in NYC. If you are NYC O&D, you have no choice, unfortunately.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
enginebird
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 16):
IMHO, common sense when trapped on a CRJ with no air conditioning, passengers vomiting, and babies crying for four hours is to try to and do something about it. That's exactly what this passenger did: He went up to the captain (who, as previously stated, has final authority over the aircraft) and asked him what was going on.

Spot on, exactly what i think, too.  bigthumbsup 

It's about time people don't endure just about anything the airlines do to them without complaining. Covered by some absurd notion of "security", passengers seem to have lost their right to acceptable service and information.
 
ULMFlyer
Posts: 190
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:51 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 18):
If it was already out in the queue or caught somewhere out in a congested ramp where it was difficult or nearly impossible to turn off into a separate area, etc. If that CRJ is in a queue of about 40-50 planes, it is not as easy to even move and find a spot to leave the queue and head back to the terminal....

I can see your point and I must say I am unfamiliar with JFK, but I believe there are always alternatives. As I said in my previous post, we were ~#15 at EWR when we had to deplane two passengers. Although I wrote that we returned to the gate, that's not accurate. The captain managed to taxi the 752 to a spot on the ramp where stairs were brought to the door in front of row 7. Then, the captain personally walked back from the cockpit, opened the door and saw them off to a car that was waiting. After that, we taxied to an area nicknamed the "Bullpen" (according to the captain, in long gone less busy times, ramp rats used to play ball there). And we remained #15 for takeoff and didn't fall back to #50 or so. Very professional service from CO.

I suppose Comair could have done better.
Let's go Pens!
 
Analog
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 14):
but because a passenger forced the Captain to call the police to remove this guy.

How did the passenger force the captain to do this? The captain could have ordered the guy to sit down and then closed the cockpit door. The captain was the one who allowed the silliness to continue (I cannot get the video, this is from the article).

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 14):
basically breached the cockpit,

Did he enter the cockpit? Did he force his way in? No. No. From the article "stood a few feet from the open cockpit door" The captain was the one who placed everyone at risk by leaving the door open.  Yeah sure

He also "decided to make his move at around 9.30 p.m, when the captain announced that the crew had "timed out." " So the captain would no longer be the captain anyways.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 14):
tried to bully the captain into doing what he wanted

Bully the captain into letting people off the aircraft?

How many hours does one have to be held in an aircraft w/o a/c before one is allowed to ask to be let off? Seriously. The answer cannot be never...
 
jfk69
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 18):
I'm not excusing the Captain's behavior in this case...though it's not clear where the plane was this whole time....was it already in the t/o queue? Was it sitting back near Terminal 2? If it was already out in the queue or caught somewhere out in a congested ramp where it was difficult or nearly impossible to turn off into a separate area, etc. If that CRJ is in a queue of about 40-50 planes, it is not as easy to even move and find a spot to leave the queue and head back to the terminal....

I was thinking the same thing when I was sitting on Board. I looked out the window and looked all around to wonder what would happen if we had to move. We were located on a taxiway between the 4's and 22's. If we had to move it probably would have forced them to move 15 planes with it. Def. hard enough in the control tower without having to start move aircrafts around again.

In regards to accosting the pilot....I see both sides. The passenger should have spoken to the pilot and found out what the situation was. If the passenger did not get an answer he felt would suffice, he should have called COMAIR's 800 number and explained the situation to them. Thene he should have alerted the pilot that he would call the port authority if nothing will be done. (That is how I would have done it anyhow)
 
UN_B732
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:25 am

Does Comair even have an 800 number? Delta's reservations 800 # would be useless in this situation, I suspect.
What now?
 
Crewchief
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 2:32 am

RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:37 am

I am so sick of hearing the airline apologists either blame the passengers or cry about procedure whenever an airline abuses -- not mistreats, but abuses -- its passengers. This event clearly was abuse. It threatened the health and safety of the passengers.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 14):
The passenger bullied his way, and that's why he got interviewed.

Do you really believe that standing up against your abusers is being a "bully"? That's a unique argument. The bully isn't the abuser, the victim is the bully! Sounds like the logic of a schoolyard bully.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 9):
he got what he deserved when the police pulled him off the aircraft

He got fresh air. That's what all the passengers deserved, and what the abusers failed to deliver. From the article, it's what his plan was all along, and it worked. If I was a passenger on that flight, I'd think he was a hero.
 
dbo861
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:54 pm

First of all, I'm surprised at the poor, extremely biased journalism of the NY Times. This article is in the Business section, but it reads like it's an editorial. The journalist makes it seem like this Comair flight was the only plane sitting on the Taxiway for four hours while this evil flight crew tortures the passengers by purposely not taxiing back to the gate (simple as it may sound) and allow the passengers to deplane and take the next flight.

You guys should really try sitting in the cockpit of a plane that endures some of these 2 - 3 or even 4 hour taxis at JFK and listen to the radio. It can be a zoo. So many pilots call up trying to figure out the estimated taxi time along with various other requests/complaints to ground control. Several times I have heard ground controllers say "no one speak on my frequency unless you have an emergency." Also, the article doesn't really elaborate where the plane was and how sandwiched between other planes it was in line for the runway. It's not as simple as it may sound for a plane to decide to leave the line and simply taxi back to the gate. First of all, other aircraft may be blocking the intersecting taxiways leading up to the runway so they'd still have to wait till they got to the front of the line just to taxi down the runway to the first available taxiway. At that point, they'd have to sit there for at least an hour until ground control is able to find an opening to allow the plane to taxi to ramp. Then there could be an hour wait for ramp tower allow them to taxi in to a gate due to the narrow alley it's ways at JFK (one plane in, one plane out) and the long line of the already scheduled arrivals and departures. When all said and done, it probably would have been easiest to bite the bullet and stay in line for takeoff.

Now we get to the defered Air conditioner. Just about any airline's MEL for whichever plane they fly will allow them to fly with a defered Air Conditioner. Even though we're right in the middle of the summer, many airlines would still fly this plane until maintenance is able to fix the problem. There isn't always a spare airplane sitting around, so it's either fly the un-air conditioned plane, or cancel the 6-7 flights it was supposed to fly per day until it can be fixed.

When it's all said and done, I don't think it's fair to be hostile towards the flight crew in this situation. People seem to forget that all three of them also had to endure the same uncomfortable conditions, it's not like they were enjoying themselves at the expense of the passengers. Even though the captain is the PIC, he/she does not have the authority to cancel a flight in this situation without authorization from the higher-ups. This was an unfortunate event. I feel bad for the passengers and flight crew both in this situation.
 
Analog
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 26):

You guys should really try sitting in the cockpit of a plane that endures some of these 2 - 3 or even 4 hour taxis at JFK and listen to the radio.

I'd go to jail if I did that. Big grin

Was the aircraft in question taxiing? If so, why was the cockpit door open?

Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 26):
Now we get to the defered Air conditioner. Just about any airline's MEL for whichever plane they fly

The aircraft in question was not flying (no a/c). When pax start vomiting because of the condition of the aircraft, it's time to reconsider the planned course of action. Any PIC that doesn't do so should think about his/her obligation towards pax safety.

Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 26):
I don't think it's fair to be hostile towards the flight crew in this situation

Not the entire crew, just the PIC and Comair [and ATC, etc.] A hostile attitude (note: not actions) is certainly understandable.

Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 26):
Even though the captain is the PIC, he/she does not have the authority to cancel a flight in this situation without authorization from the higher-ups.

This is why a form of pax rights legislation is needed, so that PICs can use that as a reason to do the right thing and not worry [too much] about retaliation for doing the right thing.
 
nickstyro
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:50 pm

RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:54 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
However, how long should passengers have to wait for the Captain (and Comair) to use some common sense and scrub the flight?

Its unfortunately not up to Comair to cancel the flight, that right belongs to Delta. Most of the delays in the Northeast (JFK.LGA,NEW,in particular) are due to ATC delays.
 
drewwright
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue May 15, 2001 3:51 am

RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:46 pm

Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 26):
Even though the captain is the PIC, he/she does not have the authority to cancel a flight in this situation without authorization from the higher-ups.

The captain may not have the authority to cancel a flight, but s/he has the power to create a situation that would force the hand of those with that authority, e.g. returning to the gate for more fuel, sick pax, etc. In addition, the captain has the authority to refuse an aircraft, which should have been considered when faced with significant weather and traffic delays. Granted, he would have some explaining to do in any of these situations, but I think he would have been justified in taking either of those courses of action. Unfortunately, many pilots are so afraid of doing the "carpet dance" in the chief pilot's office that they will let a situation escalate to this level. Needless to say, this Comair captain would have had to do a carpet dance either way, but he's really going to have to pull out all the stops to get out of this unscathed. The comfort and well-being of the passengers should have been a higher priority than completion of the flight.
 
iflyac
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:11 am

RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:05 pm

I saw the video and those passengers sure didn't look too comfortable to me. Even if de-boarding wasn't an option, couldn't they have at least opened the doors?

I can't imagine being treated like that by an airline.
What was it we had for dinner tonight? Well, we had a choice of steak or fish. Yes, yes, I remember, I had lasagna.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:07 pm

its a catch 22 because if the plane dosnt try to take off people will be mad they didnt try and made them wait in the terminal and if they sit there trying to take off people will be mad they didnt let them wait in the terminal. its a catch 22 and you be able to please anyone because both scenarios stink. its a hard position to be making the decisions. if you let the passengers off the plane is obviously the better decision as sitting there for hours is awful but then you run a very high risk of flying the next day and some passengers are rediculous and dont understand why you dont take off now. i feel bad for the agents at times like this because they try hard and everyone will end up blaming them when its not their fault

i was in MCO once and during a HUGE thunderstorm. A passenger ran up to the gate after it was said we would be delayed for about two hours for boarding and said they hated the airline for not taking off right now they had to go back to new york. The passenger literally demanded the plane take off right now he didnt care about the lightning storm!!! screaming as loud as he could. sounded like he had no real emergency to get home to just a hyper new yorker sleeveless shirtwearing new yorker. The gate agent responded just because your from new york dosnt mean you have to act like a new yorker everyone around laughed at how hyper, stupid, and unrealistic this passenger was. but remember by not boarding as a gate agent the more you have to hear this guy yell at you
 
lincoln
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 26):
Even though the captain is the PIC, he/she does not have the authority to cancel a flight in this situation without authorization from the higher-ups

While it may be arguable that movement on the ground for purposes of flight is not 'flight time' I would posit that 14 CFR 121.533 gives the PIC / dispatcher authority to cancel/refuse the flight when passenger health/saftey are jeopardized:

(a) Each certificate holder conducting domestic operations is responsible for operational control.
(b) The pilot in command and the aircraft dispatcher are jointly responsible for the preflight planning, delay, and dispatch release of a flight in compliance with this chapter and operations specifications.
(c) The aircraft dispatcher is responsible for--
(1) Monitoring the progress of each flight;
(2) Issuing necessary information for the safety of the flight; and
(3) Cancelling or redispatching a flight if, in his opinion or the opinion of the pilot in command, the flight cannot operate or continue to operate safely as planned or released.
(d) Each pilot in command of an aircraft is, during flight time, in command of the aircraft and crew and is responsible for the safety of the passengers, crewmembers, cargo, and airplane.
(e) Each pilot in command has full control and authority in the operation of the aircraft, without limitation, over other crewmembers and their duties during flight time, whether or not he holds valid certificates authorizing him to perform the duties of those crewmembers.
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higherflyer
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting Drewwright (Reply 29):
Needless to say, this Comair captain would have had to do a carpet dance either way, but he's really going to have to pull out all the stops to get out of this unscathed.

How do you come up with that idea? The captain was in command of an aircraft stuck in a departure line at JFK. Weather was horrible that night and delays are endemic at JFK. He was doing his job, had the flightdeck door open and seemed to be communicating to the passengers and apparently trying to make the best of a bad situation. He may have had a plane full of po'ed pax, but I don't see any reason he would have had to do the 'carpet dance'. File an irregularity report and go to his next flight. How is he scathed?!
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:28 pm

<<>>

So sorry to break the news to you... but Common Sense died a few years back.

Today, we mourn the passing of an old friend by the name of Common Sense.

Common Sense lived a long life, but died from heart failure at the brink of the Millennium. No one really knows how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He selflessly devoted his life to service in schools; hospitals, homes, factories and offices, helping folks get jobs done without fanfare and foolishness.

For decades, petty rules, silly laws and frivolous lawsuits held no power over Common Sense. He was credited with cultivating such valued lessons as to know when to come in from rain, the early bird gets the worm and life isn't always fair.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn), reliable parenting strategies (the adults are in charge, not the kids), and it's okay to come in second.

A veteran of the Industrial Revolution, the Great Depression, and the Technological Revolution, Common Sense survived cultural and educational trends including feminism, body piercing, whole language and new math.

But his health declined when he became infected with the "if-it-only-helps-one-person-it's-worth-it" virus. In recent decades, his waning strength proved no match for the ravages of overbearing federal legislation.

He watched in pain as good people became ruled by self-seeking lawyers and enlightened auditors. His health rapidly deteriorated when schools endlessly implemented zero tolerance policies; when reports were heard of six year old boys charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; when a teen was suspended for taking a swig of mouthwash after lunch; when a teacher was fired for reprimanding an unruly student. It declined even further when schools had to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student but couldn't inform the parent when a female student is pregnant or wants an abortion.

Finally, Common Sense lost his will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses, criminals received better treatment than victims, and federal judges stuck their noses in everything from Boy Scouts to professional sports.

As the end neared, Common Sense drifted in and out of logic but was kept informed of developments, regarding questionable regulations for asbestos, low-flow toilets, smart guns, the nurturing of Prohibition Laws and mandatory air bags.

Finally, when told that the homeowners association restricted exterior furniture only to that which enhanced property values, he breathed his last.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son Reason. His three stepbrothers survive him: Rights, Tolerance and Whiner.

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.

[Edited 2007-06-27 16:36:00]
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
Arrow
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 14):
The passenger bullied his way, and that's why he got interviewed. And believe you me, this will follow him for the rest of his life. Wouldn't surprise me if TSA has already listed his name on one of their lists...

Which says far more about the TSA and the ridiculous security regime we all endure now every time we get on an airplane, than it does about the passenger. Stand up for yourself? We'll get you for that! You can bet that the reason the crew's hands are tied has more to do with security concerns than lack of a place to park the plane and a bus to get the passengers off.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 14):
What I am saying is this passenger (because we must be polite) basically breached the cockpit, tried to bully the captain into doing what he wanted, and forced said captain to call the police. This guy deserved more than what he got from the cops and TSA.

He's now firmly on my hero list. And I bet his fellow passengers cheered when he accomplished his goal. I thought what he did was brilliant -- just push the crew far enough, without breaking any rules, to make them call the cops. And do not underestimate the importance of that little video camera. It's amazing how much the prospect of a video record of your actions will make you do something reasonable, as opposed to doing something unreasonable. I want one of those gizmos.

Quoting Enginebird (Reply 20):
It's about time people don't endure just about anything the airlines do to them without complaining. Covered by some absurd notion of "security", passengers seem to have lost their right to acceptable service and information.

I agree. Reminds of that movie, Network, when the tired and frustrated news anchor gets everyone to open up their windows and shout "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more." Unfortunately, it's going to take the threat of some class action lawsuits (much more so than any "passengers rights" legislation) to make all the airlines rethink how they handle these situations. The flight crew has to endure this stuff as well, but at least they're getting paid for doing a job. The passengers, on the other hand, are paying good money for this kind of abuse.
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VgnAtl747
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting Nickstyro (Reply 28):
Its unfortunately not up to Comair to cancel the flight, that right belongs to Delta. Most of the delays in the Northeast (JFK.LGA,NEW,in particular) are due to ATC delays.

Incorrect! Comair has it's own operations control center that handles Comair flights. In the event of a mechanical delay, crew delay, crew timeout, etc., Comair ops issues the cancellation or delay...

In this case, Comair could have handled the situation differently than they did. It's not down to the PIC, the gate agent, the specific controller, etc. All parties need to work together to make sure the situation is under control and handled safely and professionally.
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drewwright
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting Higherflyer (Reply 33):
How do you come up with that idea? The captain was in command of an aircraft stuck in a departure line at JFK. Weather was horrible that night and delays are endemic at JFK. He was doing his job, had the flightdeck door open and seemed to be communicating to the passengers and apparently trying to make the best of a bad situation. He may have had a plane full of po'ed pax, but I don't see any reason he would have had to do the 'carpet dance'. File an irregularity report and go to his next flight. How is he scathed?!

It is really quite simple. Pilots get called into the CP office for lots of things, often trivial things. Given the amount of publicity this incident has generated, I'm quite certain he will be having a chat with someone, even if he was merely 'doing his job.'
 
galapagapop
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:11 am

The passenger in the article uploaded the video to youtube

 
Goldenshield
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 38):
The passenger in the article uploaded the video to youtube

What an ass. He talked about protocol, and yet, didn't follow protocol himself.
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lincoln
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:54 am

The passenger is a little too agressive for my taste, but the captain's "eh, I can't do anything" attitude is driving me crazy.

"Just call Delta"
"I know the Chief Pilot's name, but I'm not going to tell you"
"security"

Though from what I could understand (I was having a hard time hearing the captain's side of the story) the ramp was closed due to lightning...which does make the situation difficult but I would imagine that _somewhere_ could be found to offload the pax if they really wanted to. (If I were in that position, though, I would have just stuck to the "I won't say anything while you're recording this" line...but I'm paranoid.)

And anyone who understood the last 45 seconds or so...if they could post the transcript, I was having a hard time understanding it.
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UN_B732
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:35 am

Is it justme, or does it look like they're parked at the gate 25 area at JFK in the end? If so, WTF was going on? They never taxied?
-A
What now?
 
higherflyer
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:14 am

RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting Drewwright (Reply 37):
It is really quite simple. Pilots get called into the CP office for lots of things, often trivial things. Given the amount of publicity this incident has generated, I'm quite certain he will be having a chat with someone, even if he was merely 'doing his job.'

I hear what you are saying and am sure that the captain will be speaking with someone about this situation, there will be no carpet dance with the chief pilot on this.

I've been in his situation on more than one occasion and there were never any repercussions. If the ramp is closed, there is not much that can be done. Shut the engines down, conserve fuel and hope things open up or clear up sooner rather than later.
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:00 am

Do I need to say "Oh wow, maybe I was right?" This passenger is way out of line. The pilot needed to be more firm and tell that prick to sit down. It sounds as if the Captain did everything he could, and now with the ground stop in affect, those passengers are stuck where they are at. Why this conjured some further action? I do not know. But, this video proves to me that what I've said all along in this thread is spot on. Was it a bad situation for the passengers? Very much so, but this ass deserved more then he got from TSA...

"I'm at risk myself" STFU...
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
flydl2atl
Posts: 115
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:28 am

Oh wow...look who this tool works for:

http://www.vio-pov.com/

Gee...I wonder if the pilot saw the camera.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:13 pm

Yeah the guy is an ass, the pilot was put in a crappy situation by his company.
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 26):
Even though the captain is the PIC, he/she does not have the authority to cancel a flight in this situation without authorization from the higher-ups.



Quoting Drewwright (Reply 29):
In addition, the captain has the authority to refuse an aircraft, which should have been considered when faced with significant weather and traffic delays.

PICs don't cancel flights. I can understand a F/A not knowing this, but I find it a bit odd that an F/O doesn't. I hope you visit your airline's dispatch office and sit a desk with a dispatcher before you upgrade.

The PIC can indeed refuse an aircraft--for MEL/MX-related reasons--not just because s/he feels like it's warranted. The "refusing" bit is wholly out of context here.

Sure, a PIC can decline to fly a flight because of a safety-related issue, but impatience with everything related to weather delays and/or ATC delays isn't one of them. Calling fatigue? Sure, we'll try and re-crew it, but if there's no operational reason why the flight can't/shouldn't go (albeit delayed, within reason), it goes. There are some folks that expect the flights to run, once they can.

Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 26):
Now we get to the defered Air conditioner. Just about any airline's MEL for whichever plane they fly will allow them to fly with a defered Air Conditioner. Even though we're right in the middle of the summer, many airlines would still fly this plane until maintenance is able to fix the problem. There isn't always a spare airplane sitting around, so it's either fly the un-air conditioned plane, or cancel the 6-7 flights it was supposed to fly per day until it can be fixed.

How many A/C packs does the aircraft have, 1 or 2? I'm not familiar with CRJ systems, but assuming it has a minimum of 2 like other aircraft I'm familiar with, all 1 of 2 inop entails is an altitude cap of FL250 or below. Should both be inop, the max is 10,000 or below, and many airlines have internal policies restricting the max pax load for temperature considerations.

Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 26):
So many pilots call up trying to figure out the estimated taxi time along with various other requests/complaints to ground control. Several times I have heard ground controllers say "no one speak on my frequency unless you have an emergency."

We get the same thing in Dispatch. Everyone wants info, but often there is no info to give. ATCSCC puts out a groundstop with an update time of XX:XX, and about 10 minutes before XX:XX, they extend the time an additional hour. Then another hour. Then another. Then the groundstop is cancelled, but they transition into a GDP and issue EDCTs that are another 60-90 minutes into the future. It all depends on the weather, and where the weather is. Crews call, some don't like the info they're given, or don't even truly understand why ("Can't you call somebody?" as if it were a cig/vis-lowered AAR issue, or, more recently, "What's an AFP?") the delays are occurring from a systemic standpoint--all they know is that their flight is being delayed.

The simple truth of the matter is that the airline industry and NAS in general are predicated on reasonably good weather conditions, visual approaches, and a reasonably "normal" operation, and that's the way it is 85% of the time as far as gates, staffing, etc. etc. go. During that other 15% of the time when the weather mucks up the normal utilization of the aircraft by slowing them down (especially winter ops) or precluding operations entirely (widespread thunderstorms) for awhile, everything and everybody gets screwed up, and all one can do is do the best one can--knowing that the "best" is still going to be a less-than-optimum "solution" for everyone concerned.

None of this is to defend someone, anyone, having to be trapped on an aircraft for 7 hours or more--it shouldn't happen. What irks me is that the media has so over-covered the AA/AUS and B6/JFK events such that the "normal" (2-4 hour) delays are now deemed equally as unacceptable. Pretty soon, even a 30-60 minute delay will cause the media to hit the red button and scramble their mini-cam gunships to cover the pax "atrocity" du jour. It's not surprising that the media doesn't understand the operational context of all this stuff, but it does amaze me that some airline pilots and F/As here can't see a "big picture" view of things. Yes, I know that you're onboard with the pax, and are just as frustrated as they are, but it doesn't change the underlying conditions that create the problem(s) in the first place.

Solutions? More airports, more runways, more gates, more airport "throughput", more staffing, more "lots of things." Some things (like quickly inop lavs) might be easy to fix--are the airlines carrying around full tanks of flushing fluid and potable water, or have they half-filled them to reduce aircraft weight/save fuel? Many things will take longer, but many people need to take a chill pill, use some common sense (weather happens, and it can make airspace unusable as well as clobbering airports), and have some patience when the "normal" irregular operations occur.

[Edited 2007-06-28 06:28:02]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 44):
Oh wow...look who this tool works for:

http://www.vio-pov.com/

Gee...I wonder if the pilot saw the camera.

At the beginning of the video the captain can be heard asking "Are you recording?" The prick says "Your damn right I am." The captain says "Then I'm not talking."
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
boacvc10
Posts: 469
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 39):
What an ass. He talked about protocol, and yet, didn't follow protocol himself

The PAX is not working for the airline.. he doesn't know "protocol" other than to not enter the cockpit IMHO. He didn't enter the cockpit, and the aircraft doors were open, and ground crew had free and easy access to the cabin, and stairs were already at the door, and cell phones were allowed - so if he got up to talk to the cabin crew, or the flight crew, YOU ARE TELLING ME YOU DON'T LIKE THAT AT ALL AND WILL NOT CONSIDER AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT PROPER TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO BRING SERIOUS ITEMS TO THE ATTENTION OF THE FLIGHT CREW ?

1) There may have been a legitimate medical emergency
2) The Cabin Crew might have been unable to spot that emergency, as the a/c is a cramped, congested coffin at the rear, and the pax would not be able to move around to bring them forward.


I fail to understand what is so inhumane about asking to be cared for in a desparate situation - the PIC could have asked for medical evacuation of the sick; or at least got up to investigate the complaint rather than protest "It's not my responsibility".

The stairs were already at the aircraft! The airport has passenger bus service, and stairs to climb upto the gate area!



BOACVC10
Up, up and Away!
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting BOACVC10 (Reply 48):
YOU ARE TELLING ME YOU DON'T LIKE THAT AT ALL AND WILL NOT CONSIDER AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT PROPER TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO BRING SERIOUS ITEMS TO THE ATTENTION OF THE FLIGHT CREW ?

Easy with the caps. You'll blow a vein. Now, as far as serious matters, yes, they should be brought forward, but vomiting and babies crying are NOT serious health risks. People vomit, and babies cry all of the time on aircraft. Now, if people were passing out due to heat exhuastion, then yes, get a medic. But to act like this guy, he was just being an ass and not really proving anything other than that he's an ass.

Quoting BOACVC10 (Reply 48):
1) There may have been a legitimate medical emergency
2) The Cabin Crew might have been unable to spot that emergency, as the a/c is a cramped, congested coffin at the rear, and the pax would not be able to move around to bring them forward.

1) Yes, perhaps..
2) The crew are not doctors. It's up to the passengers to point out these things so that help can be brought if needed. Since (apparently) this guy was the first to bring up the issues, then notification was made. However, since the gentleman was beligerant, demanding, and rude, he deserved to get kicked off of the plane.
2b) A coffin is sealed and put into the ground. Comair 191 was a coffin since no one was able to escape, but since the door was wide open on this aircraft (and air was circulating in the cabin) this aircraft was not a coffin.

Quoting BOACVC10 (Reply 48):

I fail to understand what is so inhumane about asking to be cared for in a desparate situation - the PIC could have asked for medical evacuation of the sick; or at least got up to investigate the complaint rather than protest "It's not my responsibility".

See my first answer. No one was sick. They might have been uncomfortable, but no one was truly sick. As far as responsibility, his union rules may forbid him from looking into the problem that the flight attendant should have been looking into.

Quoting BOACVC10 (Reply 48):

The stairs were already at the aircraft! The airport has passenger bus service, and stairs to climb upto the gate area!

The stairs are built into the aircraft door. But, that's not the issue here. The issue is that the government types issued an order that no one be allowed on the ramp during a storm. The crew has to follow that rule. No if's, and's, or but's about it. The video is 2:39 in length so you don't see much besides the guy intimidating and berating the flight crew over something they themselves had no control over, but based on what the flight attendant was saying at the end, they were just starting the process of OFF-LOADING the passengers, since the storm since gone out of range, and the rampers finally got to their plane.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.